Share Your Music (it probably sucks but that’s not why we do it)

[Paul Wesley 3278]

1 hour ago, SwanderedTalent said:

 

I like the chord changes.

Feels cinematic.

[Paul Wesley 3278]

2 hours ago, SwanderedTalent said:

The biggest problem for me other than that sort of fear of failure, i.e., what's in my head is perfect and doesn't take any work to complete ergo it's far superior to what I could produce

Well said.  

I can relate.  Probably everyone reading this thread can relate.  

 

2 hours ago, SwanderedTalent said:

I am much happier imagining how great the song I hear in my head could be as opposed to doing the dirty work of woodshedding it and putting a complete version down on tape. I'm also not doing this for any real reason, so I don't have anyone or anything pushing me if a song gets to 80% and stops loading.

Also well said.

As far as I'm aware, the best solution to that sentiment is from Duke Ellington.  I have seen several variations of his quote, but it's essentially, "Don't give me more time.  I don't need time.  What I need is a deadline."

I have written around 40 songs in my life, and at most, there were 5 of those that were completed without any kind of a deadline.  

All the rest went something very close to this:  I had three or four song ideas.  Some more realized than others.   I looked at my calendar and chose a day off that was several weeks in the future.  I booked a studio, hired an engineer, a drummer, and a bass player.  Sometimes also a keys player.  Then I *had* to finish them.  At least, I had to know the tempo and the structure of the song.  I had three weeks to sit at the kitchen table work out song structure, sing the melody to myself a thousand times, decide that the ABCB rhyme scheme that I'd spent 20 agonizing hours working on... these lyrics really would work better with the chord changes if it were AABB.  I started over. 

The kitchen table and the acoustic guitar were essential.  I'm a night owl by nature, so this usually happened between 10pm and 2 am in the weeks before the session.

I made Nashville-style chord charts for everyone.  I used the metronome on my laptop or cell phone to make scratch tracks.  Often that is very revealing (e.g. "Shit, the way I've mapped this out, it's a six and a half minute song.").  Most of the hired players are *really* going to want to hear the vocal melody when they do the tracking.  So if the lyrics weren't finished when I made scratch tracks, I had to sing the same lyrics in every verse.  If the lyrics were non-existent, I'd sing "Doo doo doo" or "La la la."  I cut a disco song last year where the lyrics were eluding me ahead of the tracking date, so for the scratch tracks, I sang the words to "Life During Wartime" to my own melody... which turned out to be really fun and energizing exercise (I even felt some remorse when my disco tune no longer had a falsetto, "Heard about Houston, heard about Detroit, Heard about Pittsburgh, PA."  It was cool.). 

Anyway, NONE of this comes easily to me.  I am meticulous and reserved by nature, and I am embarrassed to sing or play anything in front of other people unless I think it's *already* pretty good, so scat singing nonsense into a microphone is a truly horrifying feeling.  As far as level of discomfort, it feels like recording myself performing something I've written in big, complex, and dramatic Spanish (which I definitely cannot actually do) and then playing that recording for a room full of highly accomplished Spanish writers.

I usually don't cut lyrics on the day of the full-band tracking.  So that requires ANOTHER DEADLINE where I book an engineer two weeks from now.  Now I have to finish the lyrics.  Back to the kitchen table.

Anyway, that's what I meant when I said "discipline and grit."

Sorry for such a long post.

Edited May 9, 2021 by Paul Wesley

[Goredho 17394]

3 hours ago, SwanderedTalent said:

that has a VERY Physical Graffiti feel to it, I really like it. Saying something has a Physical Graffiti feel to it, for me, is like saying "you're as nice as my Mom", for reference. 

Thanks, that’s high praise indeed.

[jimmyjazz 45877]

Awesome stuff, Paul.  I can't completely relate, because I operate differently, but I can totally see your process working that way.

What I have always admired when working as an engineer tracking talented artists is that most of them seem pretty confident about their material.  They may not be willing to discuss the actual meaning of lyrics, but they don't seem to have much problem dissecting things in order to get the best band performance.  "Hey man, I need you to go to the minor third on the 'you' at I love YOU".  Gah.  Good for them, I guess, maybe it just comes with the extreme talent.

Personally, more often than not I'd rather crawl in a hole and die than discuss anything whatsoever about my lyrics.  I've gotten better, but I'm not exactly comfortable.  Yet.

[Goredho 17394]

On 5/9/2021 at 9:16 AM, SwanderedTalent said:

 

I really like this.  The key/scale changes are really interesting.  I wish the lead guitar tone had a little more meatiness to it.  It just seems slightly thin to me, but what you are playing is awesome.

Great job, keep those reels turning.

[Goredho 17394]

Another part mostly done for the ridiculously ambitious piece I'm working on.  It may have a few surprises and guest appearances as it develops.  This will be the first movement of six.  @sidis this has the changes you suggested, so let me know if you think they had the effect you were expecting (I think they helped a lot).
 

 

[phdhorn 6224]

27 minutes ago, Goredho said:

Another part mostly done for the ridiculously ambitious piece I'm working on.  It may have a few surprises and guest appearances as it develops.  This will be the first movement of six.  @sidis this has the changes you suggested, so let me know if you think they had the effect you were expecting (I think they helped a lot).
 

 

Sweet stuff! Knopflerish emotion.  Is this going to be some sort of concept album or musical play?  Very soothing.

[phdhorn 6224]

submitted this for an online sax class I'm taking (took up the instrument for the last 5 months).  This is my own arrangement and performance arrangement of the Erroll Garner standard "Misty". Bass, guitar, and sax are natural, percussion is digital stuff. Lots of fun to put together.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cS4YZ7JYYY30BfzmY0mpsvZBdTf-kyJx/view?usp=drivesdk

[Goredho 17394]

31 minutes ago, phdhorn said:

Sweet stuff! Knopflerish emotion.  Is this going to be some sort of concept album or musical play?  Very soothing.

Thanks.  It’s a concept piece and has a narrative arc.  It will probably wind up 12-16 minutes long when all is said and done.  Hoping it’s not just a bloviating mess 😜

Edited May 13, 2021 by Goredho
Don’t text and drive

[Goredho 17394]

21 minutes ago, phdhorn said:

submitted this for an online sax class I'm taking (took up the instrument for the last 5 months).  This is my own arrangement and performance arrangement of the Erroll Garner standard "Misty". Bass, guitar, and sax are natural, percussion is digital stuff. Lots of fun to put together.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cS4YZ7JYYY30BfzmY0mpsvZBdTf-kyJx/view?usp=drivesdk

Looking forward to listening🙂

[SwanderedTalent 5761]

1 hour ago, Goredho said:

I wish the lead guitar tone had a little more meatiness to it.  It just seems slightly thin to me

I appreciate that, I think you've sort of hit on why I was reluctant to post the piece for so long. That aspect doesn't sound... right, somehow. Thanks for the feedback. 

[Goredho 17394]

21 minutes ago, SwanderedTalent said:

I appreciate that, I think you've sort of hit on why I was reluctant to post the piece for so long. That aspect doesn't sound... right, somehow. Thanks for the feedback. 

I think its really good, and something to be proud of.  I wouldn’t hesitate to post it anywhere, just though you might want to see about tweaking the EQ a bit or adding a slap back to make it a little fuller.

[sidis 9819]

51 minutes ago, SwanderedTalent said:

I appreciate that, I think you've sort of hit on why I was reluctant to post the piece for so long. That aspect doesn't sound... right, somehow. Thanks for the feedback. 

don't be reluctant.  this is the perfect place to share and get feedback, even in the early going.  anyone that puts something forward on this thread will always get a rep from me regardless of whether or not i like it because i know how disconcerting it can be to put yourself out there.

no one here is Bach, Bob Dylan, Bill Withers, Paul McCartney, or Prince. but there is some talent here including you and a lot of the feedback is going to come from people that know what it is like to have spent an embarrassing amount of time trying to get a single note, reverb, compression, key modulation, tone, signal chain, pivot chord, etc... just right to make something that very few people will ever listen to.  but like noragrets said in the title, it's not why we do it.  on top of that, i won't dox anyone but there are a couple industry professionals that know what they're talking about that occasionally drop some good insights that can be helpful. 

to me, the arp that turns into the rhythm guitar basically sounds like an acoustic or tele with the knob turned all the way up through a tweed amp and it absolutely works for the composition.    i think what you did in the transition at 0:52 was brilliant and i love the re-introduction running up the scale on the lead guitar.  the chord progression of what sounds to me like a Ab to Gb up to what sounds like a B to me between 0:50 to 1:02 was seriously good an well executed. the lead tone is pure but i agree with goredho that it is a bit over-trebled.  you might raise the a few of the lower bands on the eq a touch and a little compression and reverb in the mix/mastering.  but that is the easy shit compared to what you have recorded there.

also, if you want to shoot me a pm with the .wav stems of the two guitars audio tracks, i could probably turn something back around to you that adjusts what i think you believe is causing it to not be right on the tone.

Edited May 13, 2021 by sidis

[SwanderedTalent 5761]

13 hours ago, Goredho said:

I think its really good, and something to be proud of.  I wouldn’t hesitate to post it anywhere, just though you might want to see about tweaking the EQ a bit or adding a slap back to make it a little fuller.

Thanks. I didn't mean anything defensively, just pulling the curtain back a little bit on the insecurities that live in my brain. I recorded this at least six months ago and I felt like it was a decent piece of music, but there was something about it that didn't hit me right and I think you and @sidis hit on the culprit-- that lead part didn't land quite right.

But, I am also guilty of what sidis is talking about in terms of "I will post it as soon as it's perfect so that all I get is positive reinforcement YAY!" versus the reality of, I'm not a genius and I'm not even a professional, so it's totally unrealistic to expect to produce a "perfect" piece of multi-instrumental music without input from other musicians. 

So, again, I appreciate both of you taking the time to listen and to offer tips for improvement. 

[Goredho 17394]

17 minutes ago, SwanderedTalent said:

Thanks. I didn't mean anything defensively, just pulling the curtain back a little bit on the insecurities that live in my brain. I recorded this at least six months ago and I felt like it was a decent piece of music, but there was something about it that didn't hit me right and I think you and @sidis hit on the culprit-- that lead part didn't land quite right.

But, I am also guilty of what sidis is talking about in terms of "I will post it as soon as it's perfect so that all I get is positive reinforcement YAY!" versus the reality of, I'm not a genius and I'm not even a professional, so it's totally unrealistic to expect to produce a "perfect" piece of multi-instrumental music without input from other musicians. 

So, again, I appreciate both of you taking the time to listen and to offer tips for improvement. 

No worries, and I get what you are saying.  I feel that way a lot of the time, too.  No matter where a musician is on the spectrum of amateur hobbyist to paid professional, their music means something to them.  Putting it out there for the world to judge is very exposing in an uncomfortable way.  But the feedback from people here and in the composition thread has been pretty invaluable to my own growth as an amateur hobbyist producing music that pretty much only I give a shit about.  At this point, I'm getting comfortable with that discomfort, so to speak, and see public criticism as a way for me to improve faster than I would in a vacuum with only my own musical mind giving me feedback.

Case in point, I suck as an audio engineer and really have no desire to develop those skills.  I don't have a fantastic ear.  I have some hearing loss, tinnitus and just don't hear a lot of sounds/frequencies that most people do.  Further, I just want to compose, arrange and PLAY and have an artifact of that for my kids or whoever gave a shit about me after I am gone.  Mixing and mastering is a necessary evil to that last part.  After listening to my crappily mixed and mastered stuff for awhile, sidis hipped me to some plugins to do most of that for me better than I could myself.  Now he didn't say, "Dude, you really suck at mixing and mastering."  He just said, "Hey, here are a couple tools that might help you out with mixing and mastering if you aren't familiar with them."  As a result, the recorded artifacts of my composing, arranging and playing sound a lot better *and* I have more time to create them since I am not struggling through the mixing and mastering process (thanks again, @sidis).

Anyway, keep it up, you have a lot of really interesting musical ideas that I enjoy hearing

 

[SwanderedTalent 5761]

On 5/12/2021 at 6:54 PM, Goredho said:

Another part mostly done for the ridiculously ambitious piece I'm working on.  It may have a few surprises and guest appearances as it develops.  This will be the first movement of six.  @sidis this has the changes you suggested, so let me know if you think they had the effect you were expecting (I think they helped a lot).
 

 

Without looking at the play-meter at the bottom, I could tell that the piece was wrapping up and literally my brain was like "wait, MORE PLZ, NO STOP"

[Goredho 17394]

23 minutes ago, SwanderedTalent said:

Without looking at the play-meter at the bottom, I could tell that the piece was wrapping up and literally my brain was like "wait, MORE PLZ, NO STOP"

Thanks!  Just hoping when all the pieces like this are done and its merged into a 15 minute piece, people won't be like:

[SwanderedTalent 5761]

hahaha-- my wife when I talk about my music

 

 

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by SwanderedTalent

[Bogeywon 2519]

Early 2000s... a buddy who rapped asked me to play guitar on his songs. During that time him and I did a couple songs together for fun. No guitar on this but we ripped the song off and made this. He’s the 1st and 3rd verses me the 2nd. I stink but he’s really good I think. Any here ya go

[Goredho 17394]

A buddy has a Jack Johnson/bluegrass thing going on and asked me to contribute a solo to one of his songs.  I sent him this as a rough sketch to see if I was on the right track and he decided to use it as is.  I still think it could have used another session to tighten it up, but ultimately it’s his song.  Played with my fingers on an ES-335 through a Friedman amp model almost clean.

  

Edited May 23, 2021 by Goredho

[jimmyjazz 45877]

That's cool, it has a bit of a Mark Knopfler vibe, mostly in the tone.  Nice job.

[Goredho 17394]

8 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

That's cool, it has a bit of a Mark Knopfler vibe, mostly in the tone.  Nice job.

Thanks, appreciate the kind words.

[sidis 9819]

On 5/9/2021 at 10:16 AM, SwanderedTalent said:

 

i am curious if you ever did anything further with this.  i really liked this track a lot and think it could be excellent with a little tinkering.

[SwanderedTalent 5761]

On 5/27/2021 at 1:15 PM, sidis said:

i am curious if you ever did anything further with this.  i really liked this track a lot and think it could be excellent with a little tinkering.

have not even touched it-- mostly because I had "finished" it something like six months before I posted it here, so the desire to work on it further isn't there right now

I did see your offer to retreat the track(s) and am genuinely appreciative of the offer, and may take you up on it at some point. 

[UTCzech III 2907]

Sound isn't that great, but had a lot of fun yesterday playing our first church picnic in years, down in Serbin outside of Giddings.  

 

[Goredho 17394]

If anyone has time to re-listen, @sidis was kind enough to lend some keyboards to this track and I upped the drums at the end.  Feedback welcome, about the overall mix and/or master especially.
 

 

[Goredho 17394]

@sidis, @jimmyjazz, @Paul Wesley, @SwanderedTalent, @Bogeywon, @phdhorn and anyone else.  Are you distributing your music in any way?  All I've ever done is share through soundcloud, but I would like to get onto itunes, spotify, etc...  Not with any idea I'll make money, but more to just make it easier to get out there in front of people.  I've seen two platforms recommended, Distrokid and Soundrop.  Distrokid costs $20 a year or something, and takes no cuts from any profits.  Soundrop is free to use, but they take a decent cut of any profits.  So I guess if you aren't making money, soundrop is better.

Would be curious what, if anything, others are doing for guerilla distribution.

https://soundrop.com/

https://distrokid.com/

Edited June 1, 2021 by Goredho

[sidis 9819]

yeah, i am on spotify/apple music/amazon/youtube-google play/pandora/a bunch of other stuff that I don't even know.

I just use repost which is part of soundcloud for ease of use.  it is more expensive than distrokid with not much upside.  if i were you and starting that track, i would probably go with distrokid.  it is a fairly painless process.

in the last year, i brought in a whopping ~$1,300 so while it paid for itself, not quitting the ol' day job just yet.  the most fascinating part is seeing where in the world the music organically reaches to and who is listening.  make sure you get the spotify for artist app, apple music for artist app, etc... so you can look at all that.

[SwanderedTalent 5761]

44 minutes ago, Goredho said:

@sidis, @jimmyjazz, @Paul Wesley, @SwanderedTalent, @Bogeywon, @phdhorn and anyone else.  Are you distributing your music in any way?  All I've ever done is share through soundcloud, but I would like to get onto itunes, spotify, etc...  Not with any idea I'll make money, but more to just make it easier to get out there in front of people.  I've seen two platforms recommended, Distrokid and Soundrop.  Distrokid costs $20 a year or something, and takes no cuts from any profits.  Soundrop is free to use, but they take a decent cut of any profits.  So I guess if you aren't making money, soundrop is better.

Would be curious what, if anything, others are doing for guerilla distribution.

https://soundrop.com/

https://distrokid.com/

You're way out ahead of me. It only occurred to me last year I might want to share these with anyone, thus the SoundCloud, but even that is 100% private (I only send out links to a few people for advice/affirmation, and post stuff here sometimes). Just hearing "hey that doesn't suck" was a good start, but I haven't thought much about what else I might do with any of it. 

[Goredho 17394]

38 minutes ago, sidis said:

yeah, i am on spotify/apple music/amazon/youtube-google play/pandora/a bunch of other stuff that I don't even know.

I just use repost which is part of soundcloud for ease of use.  it is more expensive than distrokid with not much upside.  if i were you and starting that track, i would probably go with distrokid.  it is a fairly painless process.

in the last year, i brought in a whopping ~$1,300 so while it paid for itself, not quitting the ol' day job just yet.  the most fascinating part is seeing where in the world the music organically reaches to and who is listening.  make sure you get the spotify for artist app, apple music for artist app, etc... so you can look at all that.

Thanks for the advice, which brings up a few more questions

• What are you doing for branding?  Like, I know you hear as sidis, on soundcloud as ek.  I assume you are something consistent on the more major platforms or... ?
• Are you just firing the music out there and letting it be?  Or actively trying to market it?
• Given that there is actually some money flowing around your music, are you able to write off gear purchases as expenses?

[sidis 9819]

ek on the other stuff as well.  I am doing no marketing/branding/anything efforts whatsoever which is obviously not ideal for getting the music more widely listened to.  There is a whole subculture of people/advice helping on getting your music on to certain spotify playlists, etc... that, if it happens, will greatly widen your audience and get you a bit more noticed.  honestly, it is kind of the key.  getting on spotify branded playlists will instantly boost you a ton.  other influencer type playlists across the forums like youtube will help as well.  i don't have any advice to offer you on how to successfully do any of that because i haven't tried.  but once you get your artist page approved on things like spotify and apple, they have a ton of videos they themselves do to try and help you through that and other marketing opportunities.  I haven't put anything out yet that I am proud enough of to make that level of effort.  Just threw an EP out there and let it organically reach whoever it reached.

on the tax stuff, you can definitely do that.  my taxes are...complicated so i won't bother trying to relate to that but if you declare the income from those sources, you can absolutely write off gear and home office type investments.

[phdhorn 6224]

I'll be relatively brief for now. The answer it has been posted here is "everything and anything." Most of the music sites mentioned so far, plus YouTube, Facebook, whatever. It takes some organization, no question about it I also do liturgical and classical music which is a whole other area. And of course part of this is making sure you're registered with ASCAP or BMI or similar, because they'll try to find royalties that you might not be aware of.

I'm doing two main things right now to get ready to market myself again. The first is 2 years ago I formed my own publishing company. This means I will own all my songs and won't have to go through a publisher. If my music amounts to nothing, so be it. But if I get anything out there with some legs, I'm in a much better negotiating position if someone wants to buy something of mine as a publisher. Plus, if I get any notoriety or just work at it I can publish other peoples' music and make some great money doing that. I can elaborate further another time.

The second thing I'm doing is getting enough original songs together to put out what would amount to an extended CD or small LP (7-8 good songs). Once I do that, I'm going to ramp up my website. Then all the stuff I would be on like SoundCloud etc. Would eventually point back to my website. That's where I can avoid the scattering of various sites and filter them to one place. I hope to do that the by the fall.

I also have an entertainment lawyer, which I highly recommend if things start getting complicated. They're very good at boiling all this down more simple. They're generally not all that expensive, of course it depends on what you need. I probably pay my lawyer a hundred bucks a year or so for various things.  Austin has a bunch of 'em.

 

[phdhorn 6224]

One quick comment on the tax question, you can always depreciate gear, especially if you play outside the house, but you really have to watch it, because that is a huge red flag for an audit, although your chances of being audited are probably still only 1%. Still, I won't risk it quite yet -not worth relatively little I'd save. Of course you can always deduct travel, meals, and other things as well. I did it for years and I can elaborate, although not sure what changes may have occurred since I lasted in the late 90s.

[Goredho 17394]

I really appreciate the heads up on what you guys are doing.  Again, I don't have illusions of making money with the long-winded instrumentals I'm creating right now, but it would be nice if the people that know me and give a shit about my music could easily find it on whatever platforms they like to consume music from.  Since there will almost certainly be no real profits (I'm real impressed with $1300), the key on the write offs for me would be if they can apply to my overall (i.e. not just music) income and tax burden.  Probably a discussion to have with my accountant.

It sounds like there is no downside to being registered with ASCAP or BMI and having a publishing company and ensuring you hold your rights.  Maybe I am out some time and chump change in the likely event my music never amounts to anything monetarliy.  I would be interested to read more about that, when/if you have time to go into it in more depth, @phdhorn.

Either of you know if there any rights implications when distributing through a tool like distrokid to platforms like spotify?  I guess I can read the fine print to make sure all you are giving up is the cost for the service.

[phdhorn 6224]

Thx for the replies.

I will say this... there's no one-size-fits-all answer or experience, but...

... even the most connected people have a limit on "word of mouth" friends networks.  In this day and age of course, there's always the chance that your song could catch on, draw 100,000 hits on YouTube in a week, and you might be off and running.  And make no mistake about it... IF that happens, the game will change dramatically.  People will be knocking on your door, you'll get lots and lots of love, and solicitations (probably both the legal and illegal kind).  And to be honest, it's not that much of a pipe dream today... it can and does happen more than you'd think.  The wheels turn themselves with that bit of luck. The music world is a lot different now, but not overly so in some business ways - the big boys still want to distribute and will pay.  If you get "that hit" (like 500,000 and up YouTube hits) lookout.  People will be calling for you.  More than say 2 million and there's a good chance you'll have a decent career stretch (2-3 years).

But still that's maybe 1/10,000 acts; for the most part, you have to work at it to get known.  But the good news is, it's fairly easy to get yourself a decent audience with some work.  My bio is too long to go over here, but I was entertained by a record company in the 80's.  More on that another time.   But there are enough old coots like me who like "my music" and I'm very confident that with organization, good marketing (that's a little complicated, more later), and some effort (not self-kiling degrees, either... can be done without 24/7 obsession), I will have an audience of six figures, and maybe over 1M visits.

I'm never going to be a Taylor Swift or Sam Smith-level household name; I'm way too old and although strikingly good looking (lol!), 21 year olds aren't gonna buy someone's granddad's music habitually.  So the thing to do is to decide what YOU want to play and then find the market for it, and tailor it.  I'd have more to say on that.  But i.e. maybe my market is 45-70.  No, it won't be 4 million, but there's a helluva good chance I can get 10K in with some organized work.  If not, I'm still doing what I love and wouldn't trade it for nuthin.'  We can go more into the biz down the road.  For now just keep doing what YOU like and when and if someone tells you 
"do this or change this and you can sell!" you'll have to decide how much to compromise (and you WILL have to).  Unless of course you get that huge Internet hit... next week, right?

Oh, and I think it's free to join BMI, and $50 to join ASCAP.  I can tell you the differences and what to do to choose... most pop musicians have joined BMI, but ASCAP is trying to make a resurgence from the days when sheet music, not recordings, dominated the publishing industry.  there's also GMO, but they're invitation only and are selective, trying to nab the biggest fish, so don't expect much from that yet.

Also remember that these organizations are not publishing companies - they're performing rights companies.  Actually I can register my publishing company with say BMI and I will eventually, but for companies there's a charge of like $300 or something (have to look it up).  All these do is try to get money for you if someone plays your song, or negotiate rights with publishers to pay you if someone does.  For most of us, it's like chump change (I know a guy who got a 7 cent check from BMI!), but it's good to have in place, just in case you hit a big (or even half-big) one.

Edited June 1, 2021 by phdhorn

[Chips O'Toole 1322]

19 hours ago, phdhorn said:

I'm doing two main things right now to get ready to market myself again. The first is 2 years ago I formed my own publishing company. This means I will own all my songs and won't have to go through a publisher. If my music amounts to nothing, so be it. But if I get anything out there with some legs, I'm in a much better negotiating position if someone wants to buy something of mine as a publisher. Plus, if I get any notoriety or just work at it I can publish other peoples' music and make some great money doing that. I can elaborate further another time.

 

 

Ok, when you have time, I would like to know more.  I have a good stack of unreleased material, some was basically completed a decade ago before I lost steam with music completely, a CD worth of new songs and a LOT of ideas for churning out marketable soundscapes and compositions.  What was the process for forming it, time and money-wise?

[phdhorn 6224]

44 minutes ago, Chips O'Toole said:

Ok, when you have time, I would like to know more.  I have a good stack of unreleased material, some was basically completed a decade ago before I lost steam with music completely, a CD worth of new songs and a LOT of ideas for churning out marketable soundscapes and compositions.  What was the process for forming it, time and money-wise?

Briefly, it involves filing with the Texas SOS and I believe Travis (or where you want to file) County.  You'll get Certificate(s) of Formation - this is the goal and legally establishes your business in the State and County.  You also have to make sure your DBA name isn't already taken (I think this is on a county, not state, basis, but can't remember).  I don't remember the fees if doing yourself, maybe $500 with fees and crap.  My entertainment lawyer had a package of about $700 but handled all the stuff, so timewise wasn't a lot for me.  It does take a few weeks or even a month or two to get it all registered (shock:  government don't move fast).  I think it took about 2 1/2 months overall.  I recall since I live in the ATX area for some reason it was cheaper to cart it down to the SOS downtown than to mail in, or maybe I had some unique reason, not sure why.  Or probably because I could get it expedited in a day vs. waiting for mail time, not sure.

Also keep in mind that in Texas you have the unique ability (about 10 states can do this) to file a Series LLC.  This allows you to add other business onto your existing one(s), instead of forming entirely separate LLC's for each, and you save tons of money.  Some people file say in California since that's where a lot of the music industry is, but those days are waning as e-technology makes filing elsewhere just as effective - plus it costs a compartive fortune to file in Cali, and many more restrictions and hurdles.  In my case, I have a literary business along with the music one, so it was great to do that.  But you might not care about that, it was good for me.  Anyway, it's not really that hard, but does cost a little bit out of pocket as I said.  The main thing to do this of course is your works are protected, and if someone should sue or challenge copyright or whatever, your personal assets are off limits. If you don't have a business, it's tough to collect from your personal assets in a case, but not impossible.  Totally worth the original and really one-time investment.

Edited June 2, 2021 by phdhorn

[Goredho 17394]

35 minutes ago, phdhorn said:

Briefly, it involves filing with the Texas SOS and I believe Travis (or where you want to file) County.  You'll get Certificate(s) of Formation - this is the goal and legally establishes your business in the State and County.  You also have to make sure your DBA name isn't already taken (I think this is on a county, not state, basis, but can't remember).  I don't remember the fees if doing yourself, maybe $500 with fees and crap.  My entertainment lawyer had a package of about $700 but handled all the stuff, so timewise wasn't a lot for me.  It does take a few weeks or even a month or two to get it all registered (shock:  government don't move fast).  I think it took about 2 1/2 months overall.  I recall since I live in the ATX area for some reason it was cheaper to cart it down to the SOS downtown than to mail in, or maybe I had some unique reason, not sure why.  Or probably because I could get it expedited in a day vs. waiting for mail time, not sure.

Also keep in mind that in Texas you have the unique ability (about 10 states can do this) to file a Series LLC.  This allows you to add other business onto your existing one(s), instead of forming entirely separate LLC's for each, and you save tons of money.  Some people file say in California since that's where a lot of the music industry is, but those days are waning as e-technology makes filing elsewhere just as effective - plus it costs a compartive fortune to file in Cali, and many more restrictions and hurdles.  In my case, I have a literary business along with the music one, so it was great to do that.  But you might not care about that, it was good for me.  Anyway, it's not really that hard, but does cost a little bit out of pocket as I said.  The main thing to do this of course is your works are protected, and if someone should sue or challenge copyright or whatever, your personal assets are off limits. If you don't have a business, it's tough to collect from your personal assets in a case, but not impossible.  Totally worth the original and really one-time investment.

Sounds like just the creation of a normal business entity, whether you go DBA, LLC or whatever. Was there anything specifically “music” or “entertainment” in the process?  If not, a service like Legal Zoom could probably be used.

Did you ever do anything to transfer or otherwise establish that this company “owns” the publishing rights to your music? 

[phdhorn 6224]

2 minutes ago, Goredho said:

Sounds like just the creation of a normal business entity, whether you go DBA, LLC or whatever. Was there anything specifically “music” or “entertainment” in the process?  If not, a service like Legal Zoom could probably be used.

Did you ever do anything to transfer or otherwise establish that this company “owns” the publishing rights to your music? 

On your first paragraph, yes you can use Legal Zoom or whatever, but be careful - they are often wrong or incomplete about state requirements, since they serve "everyone" and filing your DBA and LLC is primarily a state and county thing.  However yeah, it'll work for sure.  I just wanted to save time and hassle, and it was worth the extra $100 to my lawyer to do it all (note that we met and she explained to me what she did, she's very good about teaching me this stuff).

On your second paragraph, yes.  When I submitted my works for copyright to Library of Congress, I deemed that the ownership of them was my company, not me (i.e. submitted in my company's name).  That protects me from personal lawsuits.  Now no one is gonna sue someone who essentially doesn't exist (yet) in the music world, but I'm set if my series of music of Greek-Albanian Hunting Compliations makes it big and sells 20 million copies, which I fully expect.  Also, if/when I submit to BMI for royalty rights, I would submit my publishing company's name (since it "owns" my songs).  Again, good to have in a pinch.

I don't need all of this now, but it's good that it's in place if someone buys a CD from me for the purpose of other than playing Frisbee Golf.

[Chips O'Toole 1322]

To be fair, Greek-Albanian Hunting Compilation discs are extremely accurate flyers.

 

I've never even used a DBA or anything for previous bands, we just didn't give a shit and used any CD sales on psychadelic drugs and guitar pedals.  Does that kind of thing require maintenance fees or is it a one-time setup cost?

[Goredho 17394]

Just for others, it sounds like as long as the company is an LLC, S-corp, partnership or sole proprietorship, any losses suffered by the business can be deducted from your personal income.  You just don't want a C-corp, where it can't.  That's a key part of this for me.  I have a significant personal income tax burden, not at all related to music.  Music is a relatively expensive "hobby" that I am starting to be on the cusp of doing more with, so I am probably going to set up something along these lines for lowering my taxes if nothing else.

There are other characteristics of these various types of business, so there may be other reasons to favor one over another, but from the goal of offsetting taxes, everything but a c-corp can function in that regard.

[Goredho 17394]

If anyone thinks this discussion starts getting outside the scope of this thread, we can make a new one.

[phdhorn 6224]

15 minutes ago, Chips O'Toole said:

To be fair, Greek-Albanian Hunting Compilation discs are extremely accurate flyers.

 

I've never even used a DBA or anything for previous bands, we just didn't give a shit and used any CD sales on psychadelic drugs and guitar pedals.  Does that kind of thing require maintenance fees or is it a one-time setup cost?

One-time.  However I'm not sure if there's any sort of duration on the business to renew (I think not). Keep in mind that every year you have to file a franchise tax return to the State.  So far my business have grossed... let me see, do the math, etc. etc. ... oh yeah, 0$.  If you "made" less than some paltry sum (like $100 or something) you can do a quickie "my business didn't do shit" form online, takes 3 minutes).  Otherwise you really need to keep up with that.. the State will find your ass a lot faster and more likely than say the IRS for the Feds.

If you ever do get into the nice area where you start making money then you really have to be good about filing the tax on that income (say you get into the 4 figures, although legally you're supposed to do it if you make 20 cents).  That's another discussion but profit from the gig or online sales, including especially merchandise, yeah you'd better be ready to declare and file the taxes.  A lot of people don't but I know a few people who've been busted on it and had to pay five figures penalty. Maybe not a concern for the local bar band, but just keep an antenna out if you start making good cash.  My best year was $100K once and I damn well declared it but whittled it down to nothing after the pages of deduction - I had receipts.

[phdhorn 6224]

Fair enough.

Oh yeah, one other thing... if I ever make a hit of any kind, having my own business means I get two royalties... my publishing company gets one, and I as the songwriter get one.  That's a great incentive.  Plus, if I ever get a big hit, the best scenario is that some publisher might want to buy the rights to it (say to distribute).  In that case, they have to buy from my company, which can mean more jack for me.

And as I've said, all of this might mean squat right now as long as I'm at a "well mom likes my music!" level.  But if I'd ever get something that hits, it's all in place, because as I've said, if one of us ever does, the now-instant online communications world will snap into place and shit goes down very quickly.  And since there are a lot of turds in this business, I have a great toilet to get rid of them (i.e. I'm prepared).  Now, as I've said, despite my Greek-godlike looks <bullshitblowjobblowjob>, I will never, ever be a household performing name at my age.  But... there are tons of people at 50, 60, and even 70 who wrote a massive hit for a Sam Smith, Garth Brooks, or you name it.  And as a songwriter alone, if you get a huge hit, you will be super-mega in demand.  And it can be overwhelming.  So I have my safety net up and am ready.  If nothing happens (obviously very likely), well I learned a lot and actually have 2 businesses that I can pass onto my kids - one of whom is an entrepreneur and I'm sure would love to hammer it into something.

Again all this is way out there but I'd be happy to do a business side thread - a lot of times they get technical and sleep-inducing, but hopefully it can be kept on the "laymans'" level.

Edited June 2, 2021 by phdhorn

[Goredho 17394]

1 minute ago, phdhorn said:

Fair enough.

Oh yeah, one other thing... if I ever make a hit of any kind, having my own business means I get two royalties... my publishing company gets one, and I as the songwriter get one.  That's a great incentive.  Plus, if I ever get a big hit, the best scenario is that some publisher might want to buy the rights to it (say to distribute).  In that case, they have to buy from my company, which can mean more jack for me.

Again all this is way out there but I'd be happy to do a business side thread - a lot of times they get technical and sleep-inducing, but hopefully it can be kept on the "laymans'" level.

A music business thread probably isn't a bad idea, I don't want to completely derail the music focused nature of this thread with music business Q&A.

This is probably a question straight from my music industry ignorance (and for that other music business thread), but why aren't there two sets of rights and royalties whether you've assigned them to a business or not?  Like, I don't have to have a business for the copy rights to exist and be owned by me.

Is it just that by starting out with publishing rights assigned to your own company from the get go, they are spoken for and tied up and would have to be explicitly assigned to someone else?  That original assignment to your own company would precede any shady record company's subsequent claims?

[jimmyjazz 45877]

2 hours ago, phdhorn said:

the State will find your ass a lot faster and more likely than say the IRS for the Feds.

I've fallen off the file-your-franchise-tax-form wagon more times than I care to admit, because I have always had the same revenue stream as you.  The state really doesn't seem to give a shit.

Great, now I've done it.

[phdhorn 6224]

49 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I've fallen off the file-your-franchise-tax-form wagon more times than I care to admit, because I have always had the same revenue stream as you.  The state really doesn't seem to give a shit.

Great, now I've done it.

They probably won't care if you didn't make much.  If you made something, they probably care - a lot.

[jimmyjazz 45877]

Yeah, any time I've made any money at all, I've filed.  Then when a studio or band or whatever craters, I just stop filing.  One time I went in to see if I could catch up on filings because I was taking on a project after years of dormancy, and the dude at the SoS office just zeroed out all the missed filings.

[ztejas 43411]

link broken

Edited November 16, 2021 by ztejas

[ztejas 43411]

I have a full cut that's almost YT worthy if anyone gives a fuck enough to want me to post it.