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Where Do Democrats Go From Here

Dbeasy

By Dbeasy
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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13125

Posted
Posted
Just now, ChickenSandwich said:

What happens when you run out of other peoples money?

Annnnnd there it is. Catch phrases and metaphors. Fun stories for mental children.

The actual reality we've lived for decades is that we can fundamentally afford a tremendous amount of debt because of how large our economic and revenue streams are. We already know how we fund it because we've been doing it.

You people are dogshit stupid.

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G650

G650 13990

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

The actual reality we've lived for decades is that we can fundamentally afford a tremendous amount of debt because of how large our economic and revenue streams are. We already know how we fund it because we've been doing it.

Beyond this we have been accruing the debt on absolutely zero return bullshit instead of supercharging the consumer economy, and even further by having a fully developed economy and global currency our debt is an imaginary number that in reality is whatever we say it is up to a point. 

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TXSG8R

TXSG8R 3355

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Me too. Min wage imposition, depending on how it’s worded, would deter me from hiring help I need. 

That's a choice.  The other choice is to raise cost of goods or labor to compensate.  Minimum wage would require that same choice of your competitors.  Maintain cost of goods and reduce productivity, or raise cost of goods to reflect labor costs and be as/more productive.  Will house builders stop building houses because labor goes up $8 an hour or will they pass that cost on to consumers?  Will consumers stop buying houses because houses cost more, or will they just get bigger loans?  Trick question, the latter happens anyway, that money just never trickles down to the labor.  

Housing-Prices3.jpg

 

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Firemans4Horn

Firemans4Horn 17793

Posted
Posted

The deficit when trump took office was $19bn and he inherited an economy on solid footing. 4 years later and we’re closing in on $30bn deficit and tens of millions unemployed.

corporate tax cuts and SNAP benefit cuts will be his legacy. 
 

but “democrats want to spend other people’s money”

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ChickenSandwich

ChickenSandwich 9797

Posted
Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

These people are basically religious zealots impervious to the evidence of history and the present.

We know the answers to these questions already, but they will recite their dogma in the face of reason and evidence.

Dogma....your post is a great example

 

https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2020-01/55967-CBO-immigration.pdf

The Foreign-Born Population and Its Effects on the U.S. Economy and the Federal Budget—An Overview

from the Congressional Budget Office

Among people with less education, a large percentage are foreign born. Consequently, immigration has exerted downward pressure on the wages of relatively low-skilled workers who are already in the country, regardless of their birthplace.

The effects of immigration on wages depend on the characteristics of the immigrants. To the extent that newly arrived workers have abilities similar to those of workers already in the country, immigration would have a negative effect on wages.

Screen-Shot-2020-01-09-at-10.41.02-PM.pn

immigrants comprise roughly 40 percent of the population of people who did not graduate from high school  — and that immigrants already comprise roughly 20 percent of all people with a “graduate degree.”

_____________________________________________________________

Wage trends over the past half-century suggest that a 10 percent increase in the number of workers with a particular set of skills probably lowers the wage of that group by at least 3 percent” as the extra workers compete for jobs, says George Borjas, a labor economist at Harvard.

I estimate the current “immigration surplus”—the net increase in the total wealth of the native population—to be about $50 billion annually. But behind that calculation is a much larger shift from one group of Americans to another: The total wealth redistribution from the native losers to the native winners [mostly employers] is enormous, roughly a half-trillion dollars a year.

In low-skilled occupations, a one percent increase in the immigrant composition of an individual’s occupation reduces wages by [0].8 percent,” said a 1998 report by the Center for Immigration Studies.

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13125

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

I estimate the current “immigration surplus”—the net increase in the total wealth of the native population—to be about $50 billion annually. But behind that calculation is a much larger shift from one group of Americans to another: The total wealth redistribution from the native losers to the native winners [mostly employers] is enormous, roughly a half-trillion dollars a year.

In low-skilled occupations, a one percent increase in the immigrant composition of an individual’s occupation reduces wages by [0].8 percent,” said a 1998 report by the Center for Immigration Studies.

Cool so your concern is the concentration of wealth in the hands of the employer class?

looooooooooooolllllllllllllllll

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G650

G650 13990

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Posted
4 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

You know how ludicrous it is that Republicans could never figure out why blacks won’t vote for them?   How obvious it was to everyone why that might be?

Well, if Democrats want to win more working class white males, the answer is equally obvious.   Stop telling some guy that lives in a dump in Bumfuck Hills with no money, bad health, surrounded by opioid addicts, works in a dying industry, etc., that he enjoys white privilege and his racism is the most pressing issue in America.   

I swear the internet actually makes people worse at marketing.  “Let’s relentlessly demonize the largest demographic in the electorate, that also happens to enjoy a disproportionate influence in the Electoral College!  What’s the worst that could happen?”

I think one issue is that the vast majority of the middle class, politically engaged and commentary class, genuinely have no idea what it's like in some of these places. They really think they do, but it's one of those you don't  know what you don't know situations.

My wife is/was one of those who thought she did, by dint of her father who is in a rural-ish part of Pennsylvania. It's hickish and Trumpy, but it's still part of normal society. There's normal houses, stores, my wife's grandmother has a nice RV that goes to Florida every winter for a bit. Typical stuff. The forgotten areas people are being referenced are nothing like this. It's literally a different century, and until you have been there, it's almost impossible for a modern person to conceive. There's no electricity, shantys with dirt floors, no stores for 100 miles other than a Dollar General, zero jobs, and insane grinding poverty. It's literally another world.

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Hank Scorpio

Hank Scorpio 17712

Posted
Posted

List of things that are Hillary’s fault: 

1. Not flipping the Senate 

2. Barely scraping out a Biden victory 

3. Climate change (think about it) 

4. The Iraq war

5. Canceling the tv show Firefly after 1 season

6. High Republican turnout in the rust belt

7. The Star Wars prequels

8. The bank denying me a loan because I wouldn’t tell them my name and only had Pokemon cards as collateral

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Firemans4Horn

Firemans4Horn 17793

Posted
Posted
15 minutes ago, Dr. Beeper said:

The reality is so much more nuanced than a microeconomic lesson. What about contract labor?  What if I cannot increase the price of my good?  These dynamics are absolutely in play, and because of them, I absolutely would not hire someone for twice the price I could otherwise hire them without a minimum wage increase. I’d just do the work myself or leave it undone. 

Your time is only worth $15 an hour?

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Hank Scorpio

Hank Scorpio 17712

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It seems like both Republicans and Democrats failed to learn from their most recent losses. After Romney lost the Republicans needed to stop being so racist and socially conservative to appeal to a larger demographic of minorities and young people. Instead they doubled down on all that stupid shit and yeah, Trump won, but it has and will continue to fuck them in the long run. 
 

After Clinton lost the Democrats didn’t learn the lesson that voters need a reason to vote for you that isn’t just “look at these crazy Republican assholes, you can’t vote for them so you have to vote for me.” They didn’t run on any meaningful platform change or give voters a clear message about why they should want a Democrat in office. So you get the shit ass results we’ve seen so far. Basically all of this is the end of Burn After Reading. 
 

 

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13125

Posted
Posted

The ultimate utility of a wage from the perspective of the economy is that it moves money. It goes from the employer to the worker and back out to another business so that employer gives it to his worker and that worker to another employer and on and on and on and on.

"Well what would this economy be without minimum wage jobs with small-level employers whose businesses are precarious!?!?!?!?!"

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ChickenSandwich

ChickenSandwich 9797

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Posted
3 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

Cool so your concern is the concentration of wealth in the hands of the employer class?

looooooooooooolllllllllllllllll

ahh, again with zero substance

And yes, concentration is a concern.  See California and the elimination of the middle class, yet business is a strong as ever due to an unending supply of cheap illegal labor while the poverty level goes over 30% and creates the worst income inequality and unaffordable housing in the country.

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MC Fresh Breath

MC Fresh Breath 4074

Posted
Posted

 

 I know, its a Bernie tweet and the majority of Surly hates him, but that's not the point.  We all saw that Fox News poll, right?  Holy shit, everyone who isn't rich understands the need for this. 

Side rant: we just got a $400 bill for 'establishing care' at a new doctor that drew some blood and told my wife she looks good.  My wife started rage crying  at the fact that I have thousands deducted from my paycheck every year for the privilege of paying thousands more in medical 'care' afterwards.  And we're not even fucking sick or seriously ill or fighting cancer or whatever.  YET Holy fuck. 

But during a goddamned pandemic you couldn't fucking offer people healthcare?    Not even temporarily?  And its only going to get worse for everyone not in the top percentages of income in this country.  But fuck, I guess everyone should just pull themselves up by the bootstraps and work more jobs for the privilege of losing all that money when they get sick.  Trillions to the corporations at the drop of a hat, but fuck you just vote.  JUST VOTE.  And if I must be a Russian agent just for thinking these kinds of things, so looking forward to my goddamned check from Putin.  If Biden wins, by the way, does this mean Putin liked him better than Hillary?  Let's talk more about Russia and less about what people need.

Millions dropping below the poverty line that aren't coming back.  And neither Pelosi, nor Schumer, nor McConnell, nor Feinstein give a fuck about them.  Fucking nobody is actually offering to truly help.   And somehow the average Dem social media wizard is puzzled at a lack of enthusiasm for Biden?  When all you offer--not put on your website, but what you actually talk about out loud--is a return to the very normalcy that caused many to vote for a clown in the first place?  Come on, man!

The Dems better truly offer something substantial, and fast,  but I'm pretty sure they won't.

 

 

 

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staboner

staboner 4955

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Posted
3 hours ago, Firemans4Horn said:

 

this type of shit shows you the poison that is the current political system. its so wildly ineffective that it is actually working against you.

the output of the system is not only garbage, but it is the largest waste of wealth and power the world may have ever seen. 

we just shoved billions into TV adds to get the expected 50/50 result. just astoundingly dumb waste of resources and faith. the fact that American society just continues to do this is astonishing to me. the complete lack of anything resembling rational thinking seems to get exponentially worse every 4 year manufactured cycle of election hatred and doom. 

the failure the Ds isn't that they didn't talk progressively enough, but rather that no matter what they talked they would fail to connect into the correct vibe that actually gets anyone thinking critically. they are poisoned. as are the republicans. as we all know. 

 

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bad_teammate

bad_teammate 13125

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Posted
37 minutes ago, Snake Diggity said:

Listen to Andrew Yang.

Pour resources into Charlotte, Atlanta, Miami, Houston, Austin, Columbus, Madison, Philly, and Phoenix.

Give airtime to young leaders (they are doing an ok job at this).

Joe Biden: 77
Nancy Pelosi: 80
Steny Hoyer: 81
Jim Clyburn: 80
Chuck Schumer: 69 (nice)
 

They, like their hero RBG, will die before they allow this to happen.

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31184

Posted
Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, slorch said:

Your position is to crush small business by falsely inflating wages.

 

Not appealing at all. You’re just working your agenda

AFAIK, G650 owns a small business that's pretty lucrative for him and employs a lot of people.  This is all reading between the lines.

I'm also pretty sure that G650 leans right, but is not suckered by GOP orthodoxy.

The agenda claim would seem to be false and G650s "anecdotes" are also more valid than yours.

 

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CooterBrown

CooterBrown 17875

Posted
Posted
20 hours ago, slorch said:

Your position is to crush small business by falsely inflating wages.

 

Not appealing at all. You’re just working your agenda

The $15 minimum wage in Seattle sure hurt small businesses...

https://www.seattlebusinessmag.com/economy/seattle-metro-ranks-no-1-small-business-job-growth-while-national-rate-dips

The November results of the Paychex IHS Small Business Employment Watch showed the Seattle metro jumping to first overall in small business jobs growth. The Seattle metro was No. 1 on the list for nine months in 2016, but did not top the list in 2017 until this November ranking. Metros also ranking highly are (in order): Denver, Philadelphia, Atlanta and Houston.

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G650

G650 13990

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Posted
32 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

AFAIK, G650 owns a small business that's pretty lucrative for him and employs a lot of people.  This is all reading between the lines.

I'm also pretty sure that G650 leans right, but is not suckered by GOP orthodoxy.

The agenda claim would seem to be false and G650s "anecdotes" are also more valid than yours.

 

Quite accurate.

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