Electric Cars

[Beantown Express 2.0 6531]

Anybody own an electric car?  Thinking of getting one this go around and was curious to know if any of you have pros/cons/tips if you currently own one.

[52-80 19066]

Marketplace still far from mature, but the only one I could recommend is without needing qualifications or reservations is Model 3.  It's a really good car.

Taycan if you have spare wads of money.

Model S is dated and I personally dont like large vehicles.  All other cars (VW, Hyundai Kia, MBZ, Jaguar, Polestar, etc) is severely flawed one way or another so you need to really be drawn to them to want them

 

[Beantown Express 2.0 6531]

30 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Marketplace still far from mature, but the only one I could recommend is without needing qualifications or reservations is Model 3.  It's a really good car.

Taycan if you have spare wads of money.

Model S is dated and I personally dont like large vehicles.  All other cars (VW, Hyundai Kia, MBZ, Jaguar, Polestar, etc) is severely flawed one way or another so you need to really be drawn to them to want them

 

I was considering a Model S or a Jaguar I Pace honestly.

[Enchubben 5509]

I really know next to nothing about electric cars.  But if the range is something like 250 miles for the jag version, what do you do when you need to drive to Dallas from Houston for example?  Do you just have to stop 75% of the way there to sit and watch it charge? I guess just plan around it and take a different vehicle?

How long does it take to charge up say 25-50%?

Edited November 9, 2020 by Enchubben

[52-80 19066]

18 minutes ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

I was considering a Model S or a Jaguar I Pace honestly.

iPace has shorter range, AND on top of that the charging network outside of Tesla sucks ass

 

Use cases:

#1. Local/city use where you have nightly home charging  = doesnt matter

#2.  Away from home use, staying with hosts = range and charging network important

#3.  Long distance travel = range AND charging network is a must

 

I just did a #3 going into #2, and doing that in anything but a tesla would have me cursing

[Nice Guy Eddie 13391]

1 hour ago, Enchubben said:

I really know next to nothing about electric cars.  But if the range is something like 250 miles for the jag version, what do you do when you need to drive to Dallas from Houston for example?  Do you just have to stop 75% of the way there to sit and watch it charge? I guess just plan around it and take a different vehicle?

How long does it take to charge up say 25-50%?

Anyone buying an electric car needs to ask themselves this question but for many people its a rare event that they drive across the state. I live in Houston and probably go to Dallas once every few years and sometimes fly. If I had an electric vehicle and needed to drive for a weekend in Dallas, I would rent a non-electric vehicle.  Not to mention that rental cars are great for infrequent, long driving trips. Put the mileage and wear & tear on someone else's car.

and while not perfect, supercharging stations are being added in key spots between large cities. I would assume restaurants will naturally spring up at these spots to give you something to do while waiting 30-45 minutes for a recharge.

[52-80 19066]

17 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Anyone buying an electric car needs to ask themselves this question but for many people its a rare event that they drive across the state. I live in Houston and probably go to Dallas once every few years and sometimes fly. If I had an electric vehicle and needed to drive for a weekend in Dallas, I would rent a non-electric vehicle.  Not to mention that rental cars are great for infrequent, long driving trips. Put the mileage and wear & tear on someone else's car.

and while not perfect, supercharging stations are being added in key spots between large cities. I would assume restaurants will naturally spring up at these spots to give you something to do while waiting 30-45 minutes for a recharge.

Long driving trips are easiest on motorcars.... the start-stop, short trips in town, sometimes before engine fully warms up (or for turbo cars to properly cool down) is what is more harmful.

That is the the most understated benefit of EV.  I feel zero mechanical guilt for driving the car down the street for groceries. 

But for doing stuff like Houston to Dallas..... i think most residents of those places do that a ton

[elfenix 34168]

how could i ever drive from one end of the country to another if i have an electric vehicle in my 3 car household?

[dingleberryswitzer 2724]

I knew a guy that leased a Nissan leaf.  Didn't keep it after the lease ended and hasn't gotten another eCar.  FWIW.

[Irish Wrist Watch 1349]

So you want a coal-powered car? Hope you live in a house. Adam Curry borrowed a nice Tesla for a trip from Austin down to Greuhne (sp?). Had lots of power, but when he'd punch it, he could watch the charge gauge dropping. How can you enjoy a trip when you have to keep wondering where and when you're going to have to charge it. The worst part, to me, was that he lived in a hi-rise. He plugged into one of their charging stations at 10 PM, but felt guilty about keeping it there because other residents might want to use the station. So he gets up at 7AM on a Sunday to move the fucking car. Forget that shit. Having a car is about freedom. Battery technology is dirty as hell. Our air is getting cleaner each year, not because of elec cars, but because of natural gas. Quit worrying about destroying the environment and enjoy life.

And there's that slight problem with replacing the battery after X number of years. And resale value has to suck (could be wrong about that.)

Edited November 10, 2020 by Irish Wrist Watch

[Dahobbs 17420]

On 11/9/2020 at 8:23 AM, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

Anybody own an electric car?  Thinking of getting one this go around and was curious to know if any of you have pros/cons/tips if you currently own one.

Yup, Model 3 Dual Motor, Long Range. Love it. Recommend it to anyone. 

2 hours ago, Irish Wrist Watch said:

So you want a coal-powered car? Hope you live in a house. Adam Curry borrowed a nice Tesla for a trip from Austin down to Greuhne (sp?). Had lots of power, but when he'd punch it, he could watch the charge gauge dropping. How can you enjoy a trip when you have to keep wondering where and when you're going to have to charge it. The worst part, to me, was that he lived in a hi-rise. He plugged into one of their charging stations at 10 PM, but felt guilty about keeping it there because other residents might want to use the station. So he gets up at 7AM on a Sunday to move the fucking car. Forget that shit. Having a car is about freedom. Battery technology is dirty as hell. Our air is getting cleaner each year, not because of elec cars, but because of natural gas. Quit worrying about destroying the environment and enjoy life.

And there's that slight problem with replacing the battery after X number of years. And resale value has to suck (could be wrong about that.)

This post is dumb and you should feel dumb for posting it. 

(1) Electric cars are not powered by coal, they are powered by the grid, which is, as you say, increasingly natural gas and renewables. 

(2) Even if electric cars were powered by a grid of entirely coal power plants, they'd still be more efficient and greener than everything but the very best hybrids. Coal power plants, while dirty, are still clean compared to gas (largely due to efficiencies of scale). 

(3) I wouldn't recommend electric vehicles to someone who doesn't have access to home charging (either personal garage or charging spots).

(4) Batteries in modern vehicles like a Model 3 (or any other vehicle with active thermal management of the battery) are going to outlast the vehicle. You have Model S's and X's with over 400,000 miles on them in rental/passenger fleets. 

(5) Resale value, for Teslas at least, is superior to other cars. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a33935142/tesla-model-3-depreciate-electric-car/. Really, the Nissan leaf is a bit of an outlier and drags electric cars down in average resale value. This is because of the need to replace its battery due to lack of active thermal management. An I-Pace, Polestar 2, or any modern Tesla isn't going to have that problem. 

(6) Electric cars are superior to drive. Instant torque and one pedal driving are game changers. 

 

Edited November 10, 2020 by Dahobbs

[Mack Tripper 693]

On 11/9/2020 at 9:18 AM, Enchubben said:

I really know next to nothing about electric cars.  But if the range is something like 250 miles for the jag version, what do you do when you need to drive to Dallas from Houston for example?  Do you just have to stop 75% of the way there to sit and watch it charge? I guess just plan around it and take a different vehicle?

How long does it take to charge up say 25-50%?

You can charge from 25-50 percent at a Tesla supercharger in the time it takes to go inside a convenience store for a restroom break and to get some drinks/snacks for the road. At least my Long Range Model Y does. 

Edited November 10, 2020 by Mack Tripper

[52-80 19066]

Well, if Adam curry says you should buy a CNG/LNG car, you should buy a CNG/LNG car

[Dahobbs 17420]

2 hours ago, 52-80 said:

Well, if Adam curry says you should buy a CNG/LNG car, you should buy a CNG/LNG car

I honestly had no idea who Adam Curry was. I still don't really. 

[52-80 19066]

25 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

I honestly had no idea who Adam Curry was. I still don't really. 

probably all for the better

[Enchubben 5509]

9 minutes ago, Mack Tripper said:

You can charge from 25-50 percent at a Tesla supercharger in the time it takes to go inside a convenience store for a restroom break and to get some drinks/snacks for the road. At least my Long Range Model Y does. 

Assuming there is a charging station on the way that doesn't seem too inhibitive. 

31 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

 

(6) Electric cars are superior to drive. Instant torque and one pedal driving are game changers. 

 

The first and only time i got to ride in one was randomly a Model S which was actually an Uber ride.  I had the guy punch it on a side street just to see the acceleration - that was something else. 

[Irish Wrist Watch 1349]

3 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

Yup, Model 3 Dual Motor, Long Range. Love it. Recommend it to anyone. 

This post is dumb and you should feel dumb for posting it. 

(1) Electric cars are not powered by coal, they are powered by the grid, which is, as you say, increasingly natural gas and renewables. 

(2) Even if electric cars were powered by a grid of entirely coal power plants, they'd still be more efficient and greener than everything but the very best hybrids. Coal power plants, while dirty, are still clean compared to gas (largely due to efficiencies of scale). 

(3) I wouldn't recommend electric vehicles to someone who doesn't have access to home charging (either personal garage or charging spots).

(4) Batteries in modern vehicles like a Model 3 (or any other vehicle with active thermal management of the battery) are going to outlast the vehicle. You have Model S's and X's with over 400,000 miles on them in rental/passenger fleets. 

(5) Resale value, for Teslas at least, is superior to other cars. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a33935142/tesla-model-3-depreciate-electric-car/. Really, the Nissan leaf is a bit of an outlier and drags electric cars down in average resale value. This is because of the need to replace its battery due to lack of active thermal management. An I-Pace, Polestar 2, or any modern Tesla isn't going to have that problem. 

(6) Electric cars are superior to drive. Instant torque and one pedal driving are game changers. 

 

"Renewables". Watch Michael Moore's movie "Planet of the Humans" and then tell me about renewables. You know those wonderful sounding, subsidized "biomass" plants, of which it appears there are now thousands? All they do is burn trees, pollute the air and smell. Watch the ffucking movie. They pollute the air, and if there is one thing we are going to need in the future to offset sun-caused global warming, it is trees. Each plant burns hundreds of thousands of tons of trees per year. Watch the movie. We get maybe 8 or 10 percent of our energy from these "clean" sources. The rest is coal and natural gas, maybe some other kind of petroleum product (not sure about that.) 

[Irish Wrist Watch 1349]

58 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

I honestly had no idea who Adam Curry was. I still don't really. 

Giant podcaster who now lives in Austin and loves Texas. About 1.6 million downloads a week, world-wide. Tech/Media savvy ex MTV VJ who moved on.

[Dahobbs 17420]

34 minutes ago, Irish Wrist Watch said:

"Renewables". Watch Michael Moore's movie "Planet of the Humans" and then tell me about renewables. You know those wonderful sounding, subsidized "biomass" plants, of which it appears there are now thousands? All they do is burn trees, pollute the air and smell. Watch the ffucking movie. They pollute the air, and if there is one thing we are going to need in the future to offset sun-caused global warming, it is trees. Each plant burns hundreds of thousands of tons of trees per year. Watch the movie. We get maybe 8 or 10 percent of our energy from these "clean" sources. The rest is coal and natural gas, maybe some other kind of petroleum product (not sure about that.) 

What the fuck are you talking about? Biomass plants? Who gives a fuck about them? Hydro, wind, and solar are the primary renewables, and the latter two are growing leaps and bounds every year. Renewables are almost 20% of the entire US grid now (7% hydro, 7% wind, 3% solar, 1.5 % biomass). Also, Michael Moore is a fucking idiot. 

https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/04/michael-moores-green-energy-takedown-worse-than-netflixs-goop-series/

Quote

 

Let’s say you want to make a documentary about a complex and important topic. You could spend a lot of time on research—developing a complete picture of things, identifying scientists to interview, and figuring out how to give viewers the context necessary to understand the most nuanced issues. Or, you could just go point your camera at stuff until you have an hour and 40 minutes of footage, lay down a voiceover, upload that baby to YouTube, and call it a day.

Planet of the Humans, a documentary made by Jeff Gibbs and Michael Moore, falls into the latter category.

* * *

No math is done at any point, no data is shown for grid-total emissions over time, and no scientists are consulted to quantify emissions or compare different scenarios. Some of the information presented comes from Gibbs’ strategy of plying industry trade-show sales reps and environmental advocates with awkward questions on camera, then stringing together quick-cut clips of people admitting to downsides. The rest comes from Ozzie Zehner—an author of a book critical of renewable energy titled Green Illusions—who is also listed as producer of the film. Zehner is mostly used to explain how raw materials used in green tech are produced, making claims like “You use more fossil fuels to do this than you’re getting benefit from it.”

That’s false. Really, really false. As you’d expect, solar and wind installations produce many times more energy over their lifetimes than was used to produce them, breaking even in a few months to a few years. And that means the lifetime emissions associated with these forms of generations are far, far less than for a gas or coal plant.

* * * 

The film’s argument doesn’t go anywhere because it has nowhere to go. It’s fundamentally not about a path forward or a vision of a better future. It seems more like a long “I told you so.” Multiple speakers tell us that industrial civilization cannot devise a solution because industrial civilization is the problem. Working from that axiom, green energy can’t possibly be good, because industries can make money doing it. Exposing the “scam” of industrial green energy is just a defeatist victory lap.

Ultimately, Planet of the Humans is a mash-up of things Jeff Gibbs doesn’t know, presented as if no one knows them. And for most people, you’ll know less after watching it than you did at the start.

For a documentary about energy, it’s all heat and no light.

 

28 minutes ago, Irish Wrist Watch said:

Giant podcaster who now lives in Austin and loves Texas. About 1.6 million downloads a week, world-wide. Tech/Media savvy ex MTV VJ who moved on.

Again, who gives a fuck? Seriously, you're listening to a MTV VJ. You were dumb if you were listening to him when MTV VJs were actually a thing. You're even dumber for listening to him now. 

Edited November 10, 2020 by Dahobbs

[52-80 19066]

i dont really care about the environment.  dont care if the car saves polar bears or kills bottlenosed dolphins.

the car motor itself, it feels 5x smoother than the smoothest powertrain you've ever experienced, and delivers power like an turbo engine on full-boost.  no hand brake, no ebrake, no shifter modes,  no bringing up oil to temp.  you walk up, open the door, press the gear lever, stomp on the gas, and it goes 0-80 like a porsche 911.

would i prefer a 4.0 liter flat 6 cylinder with 3 pedals and a gearstick?  absolutely.  but most people wont.  the navigation system is bar none the speediest and most friendly system ive ever used.  same for the stereo system that natively runs streaming services, so you can play literally the worlds entire music catalog without messing with bluetooth, etc.

its the easiest car in the world to live with.  provided you start every morning from your garage (where car was charged overnight), and drive less than 180 miles*, you'll never have to think about the battery.

 

 

(actual usable range, as most people charge up to 85%, and do not use it below 20% unless necessary)

 

[TwiceHorn 31184]

1 hour ago, Dahobbs said:

What the fuck are you talking about? Biomass plants? Who gives a fuck about them? Hydro, wind, and solar are the primary renewables, and the latter two are growing leaps and bounds every year. Renewables are almost 20% of the entire US grid now (7% hydro, 7% wind, 3% solar, 1.5 % biomass). Also, Michael Moore is a fucking idiot. 

https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/04/michael-moores-green-energy-takedown-worse-than-netflixs-goop-series/

 

Again, who gives a fuck? Seriously, you're listening to a MTV VJ. You were dumb if you were listening to him when MTV VJs were actually a thing. You're even dumber for listening to him now. 

MTV in the early going was greatness.  Many of the VJs have gone on to fairly serious things.

[swraith 336]

I just bought a used Nissan Leaf. 2017. Super cheap. Purely an in town car. Can be charged nightly if needed...but with COVID it’s get charged once every 3 days. It is no where close to the performance of a Tesla. But it is a tiny fraction of the cost of a Tesla and seems to serve its in town purpose well. We still have an Internal combustion car for long range trips.

[Your Mom 4789]

I work with quite a few people that drive them Austin to Houston or San Antonio to Houston once a week. The touch of a screen will quickly tell you where the next charging station is on your route or where any of them are in your area. It sounds like it doesn’t take much longer than a gas stop would take to get a quick charge to make it the rest of the way.  
 

[Beantown Express 2.0 6531]

So I test drove a Tesla S yesterday.  Trying to decide if that is the direction I want to go.  Acceleration was out of this world.  I was not used to the breaking when you take your foot off the gas so there were some “herky jerky” moments when I was driving.  The sales guy said you get used to that after a few days and you will never want to go back to driving anything that is not just using one pedal.  The interior was decent but it seemed kind of cheaply made as far as lots of plasticy and cheap feel to some of the interior.  I was kind of hoping for a interior closer to a luxury car (Benz, Porsche, Audi, Jaguar) based on the high price.  It seemed like something was lacking but I know people love their Teslas so maybe you overlook that for the positives about the car.  My main concern is I keep reading on the internet that the reliability of a Tesla is one of the worst out there.  My goal is to get a car I can have for the next 6-8 years and not worry about it.  

By the way I live in a house so the goal is to charge it every night.  I really don’t drive a ton so I would end up putting low miles on it (like 8K a year).

[Irish Wrist Watch 1349]

Watch the movie. Did you know that, because solar and wind have downtimes (i.e., night and windless days) that the utility company has to keep a regular power generating plant running full tilt the whole time. You can't turn them off during the day. Wind and solar are basically scams. Heavy fucking industry with short lifespans and graveyards of glass and broken wind turbines. The Koch Brothers. They destroy the environment. Sorry to break it to you. I'm not a big Michael Moore fan, but he did the country right with this movie. It's on Youtube last I checked.

Edited November 11, 2020 by Irish Wrist Watch

[Dahobbs 17420]

5 hours ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

So I test drove a Tesla S yesterday.  Trying to decide if that is the direction I want to go.  Acceleration was out of this world.  I was not used to the breaking when you take your foot off the gas so there were some “herky jerky” moments when I was driving.  The sales guy said you get used to that after a few days and you will never want to go back to driving anything that is not just using one pedal.  The interior was decent but it seemed kind of cheaply made as far as lots of plasticy and cheap feel to some of the interior.  I was kind of hoping for a interior closer to a luxury car (Benz, Porsche, Audi, Jaguar) based on the high price.  It seemed like something was lacking but I know people love their Teslas so maybe you overlook that for the positives about the car.  My main concern is I keep reading on the internet that the reliability of a Tesla is one of the worst out there.  My goal is to get a car I can have for the next 6-8 years and not worry about it.  

By the way I live in a house so the goal is to charge it every night.  I really don’t drive a ton so I would end up putting low miles on it (like 8K a year).

On the interior, the Model S in particular is dated at this point. And, it isn't quite up to the standards of the competition. They are doing a refresh with the Plaid edition, but that is a 120k car and we don't really know all the interior changes yet. I honestly don't see the point in buying a current Model S. The Model 3 and Model Y are superior cars. 

The reliability thing is both true and not. Pretty much all of issues with Tesla vehicles relate to initial build quality, things like misaligned door panels. These are the types of things that will be covered by warranty. The Model X also had a lot of issues with it's unique doors, particularly in the earlier models. Problems that actually affect the operation of the car are much more rare, in line with or slightly better than the luxury brands Tesla competes with. And maintence is practically non existent (primarily just changing tires). 

[Beantown Express 2.0 6531]

3 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

On the interior, the Model S in particular is dated at this point. And, it isn't quite up to the standards of the competition. They are doing a refresh with the Plaid edition, but that is a 120k car and we don't really know all the interior changes yet. I honestly don't see the point in buying a current Model S. The Model 3 and Model Y are superior cars. 

The reliability thing is both true and not. Pretty much all of issues with Tesla vehicles relate to initial build quality, things like misaligned door panels. These are the types of things that will be covered by warranty. The Model X also had a lot of issues with it's unique doors, particularly in the earlier models. Problems that actually affect the operation of the car are much more rare, in line with or slightly better than the luxury brands Tesla competes with. And maintence is practically non existent (primarily just changing tires). 

Thanks for the input.  Unfortunately, I don't like the looks of the Model 3 and Y.  I do still like the looks of the Model S as I don't think it looks like a 10 year old car.  I hate to wait for a refresh of the interior as unlike other car brands it seems like Tesla keeps that stuff hidden.  It could happen next month, 6 months or 2 years from now.  My current car is out of warranty and already starting to have issues so I was looking to move on something sooner rather than later.  Also, on the interior what makes the lower level Teslas better than the current albeit dated Model S?  They look just as "sparse".

[troph 24548]

I don’t like the lack of a dashboard on the Y and 3, I found my S and now X to be much better in that regard. We just got a new Macan (awesome for a combustible engine) and getting back in my X after a few days driving was like a breath of fresh air. I agree 100% about the interior of the Y and 3.

The 100% software interface is still miles ahead of the competition. Even the beta version of auto-pilot is amazing for stop and go traffic or dealing with minor distractions on clearly marked roads (yes I still watch the road etc). The lack of maintenance (hate oil changes etc) is a silent benefit that really makes the luxury experience - it’s better than having a PA take your car for service for you. The core drive experience is still unlike any other vehicle so it’s relevance remains paramount to any choice of vehicle. The Tesla experience even if dated is far superior to everything else imo.

I’ve had two Teslas and the major repair issue was the door handles. I also had a electrical system battery failure (not the power train battery). I bought both CPO and the X had non-OEM wheels and they weren’t good so I squawked and got 4 OEM black turbine wheels for free. I also had a minor power train battery issue recently they resolved. Service is good, it used to be other worldly. I think pressure to make a profit has reigned in their insane service levels. I’ve yet to spend a single dollar on them except for detailing and tires.

[Dahobbs 17420]

1 hour ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

Thanks for the input.  Unfortunately, I don't like the looks of the Model 3 and Y.  I do still like the looks of the Model S as I don't think it looks like a 10 year old car.  I hate to wait for a refresh of the interior as unlike other car brands it seems like Tesla keeps that stuff hidden.  It could happen next month, 6 months or 2 years from now.  My current car is out of warranty and already starting to have issues so I was looking to move on something sooner rather than later.  Also, on the interior what makes the lower level Teslas better than the current albeit dated Model S?  They look just as "sparse".

Sounds to me like an Taycan, I-Pace, Polestar 2, or perhaps even an E-Tron would be more to your liking if you really want a more traditional interior. There is also the RS E-Tron GT that is coming out next year. It really just depends on your budget, but of those, I would definitely go for the Taycan. 

I don't think the Model 3 necessarily has a better interior than the Model S (I like the sparse, at least with the white interior). But, it is more competitive given the price of the vehicle. A Model 3 interior (at least with white) is closer to something like an S4 (roughly the same price) in terms of build and materials than a Model S is to a 7 series. That's all. 

Edited November 11, 2020 by Dahobbs

[Beantown Express 2.0 6531]

Dumb question about Tesla but if I buy a Tesla S today am I getting a 2020 or a 2021?  Is there a way to know if they will have a new model out next month/6 months versus todays?  I can’t seem to find it anywhere on the internet.  I read about some “raven” model S and can’t figure out if that is what is currently sold.  The Tesla forums I have found aren’t very informative on this stuff.

[Dahobbs 17420]

8 minutes ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

Dumb question about Tesla but if I buy a Tesla S today am I getting a 2020 or a 2021?  Is there a way to know if they will have a new model out next month/6 months versus todays?  I can’t seem to find it anywhere on the internet.  I read about some “raven” model S and can’t figure out if that is what is currently sold.  The Tesla forums I have found aren’t very informative on this stuff.

Tesla doesn't do model years. Anything delivered today is would be the Raven. The tri motor you see on the website is the new Plaid model, but those will not be available until later next year. Whether any interior updates would be made to a new non-plaid car ordered now, I'm unsure of. Tesla is doing an interior update on the Model 3 right now, so I suppose it is possible. 

[52-80 19066]

If you buy a car that is ready for delivery now, you obviously get whatever exists . If you order a car that requires a wait you'll likely get one with a VIN and title as 2021.  The number doesnt matter much - they only did a punctuated refresh once with a bumper change on the Model S.  All other improvements were done at a trickle across the timeline. 

I've had a few small random issues, but they're akin to a minor glitch they're not even memorable.  Not enough to dissuade a full recommendation if anyone asks.  (Unlike some of the cultish internet crazies, im not evangelical about the brand, i dont care if people like it or not). 

[HRSchenker 2257]

I absolutely love my Model 3. I've driven a Model S and I just don't understand the love. The 3 has everything I need and everything I didn't know I wanted until I got it. I love not having a dashboard yet having full control over the car with one center screen. The one thing I'll say to you is that if you don't have convenient charging at home or work (or at least the capability of having it installed there) then it's not for you. The greatest thing about electric cars is never having to go to a gas station. None of this filling up in 10 degree wind chill after work when all you want to do is get away from it all nonsense. Just pull into the garage, plug it in, and forget about it.

[troph 24548]

You may not want an S but the love for it is easy to understand. A maxed out S is a more superb performance experience. Longer, wider, more hp, more acceleration, better sports suspension. If you want a sporty grocery store vehicle maybe the 3 over a base model S, but the appeal for the S (performance and ludicrous models) is one of the fastest cars 0-60 mph on the road sharing company with several cars at a list price north of seven figures.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/driving.ca/auto-news/news/top-10-fastest-production-cars-from-zero-to-60-mph/amp

Model 3 won’t make that list. In fact it won’t make the top 70.

https://fastestlaps.com/lists/top-fastest-cars-0-to-60-mph

[52-80 19066]

5 hours ago, troph said:

You may not want an S but the love for it is easy to understand. A maxed out S is a more superb performance experience. Longer, wider, more hp, more acceleration, better sports suspension. If you want a sporty grocery store vehicle maybe the 3 over a base model S, but the appeal for the S (performance and ludicrous models) is one of the fastest cars 0-60 mph on the road sharing company with several cars at a list price north of seven figures.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/driving.ca/auto-news/news/top-10-fastest-production-cars-from-zero-to-60-mph/amp

Model 3 won’t make that list. In fact it won’t make the top 70.

https://fastestlaps.com/lists/top-fastest-cars-0-to-60-mph

That's a pretty arbitrary reason upon which to judge performance.  You need to be at near full charge, need to explicitly toggle on performance/ludicrous to wait for the battery to warm.... 40 minutes later, you're rewarded with 1 fast launch.  The next one, it matches a Model 3 (low 3s, high 11s).  Afterwards, it runs like a diesel Audi.

 

It's a neat party trick but inclusion on that list isn't really basis total sporting envelope.  The only BMW on it is an M8, but for driving thrills... I'd take an M2, then an M3, then an M5.

We don't transport kids so, combined with the cleaner interior and larger apparent greenhouse, makes the 3 more nimble, agile, and sportier to drive. 

The S is a bigger, heavier car, and you cant cheat physics.  That does make it a superior touring vehicle, and I can see the appeal -- same reason people buy SUVs just to commute to work -- but that appeal is certainly not universal. 

I do admit the seat shape and the alcantara headliner is nicer tho.

[troph 24548]

That’s laughable. A party trick? Jesus people. I owned an S for 3 years. I would not call it’s performance a party trick. They guy said he could not see the appeal. The appeal to the S over the 3 is easy to understand. Might not be for you or him but it’s appeal is not hard to understand. I have kids and neither the S or the 3 work anymore so I drive the X. We have the Macan now too and it’s a sick car but the X is superior in many ways. Love your 3 no need to shit on the other offerings.

[troph 24548]

And I’m already on record saying the Taycan is far superior. The list I provided only had one other luxury brand that was close to the S in cost, the 911. Porsche makes bad ass cars, and the taycan is at the top of the list and will undoubtedly unseat the S as the top electric performer. But it’s the S that created the class not the taycan and certainly not the 3 which will never be in that convo.

[TwiceHorn 31184]

WTF is a Taycan Turbo S?

Also, is there no brake pedal at all on these electrics?  Or can you just get away without using it most of the time?

Edited November 12, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[52-80 19066]

25 minutes ago, troph said:

That’s laughable. A party trick? Jesus people. I owned an S for 3 years. I would not call it’s performance a party trick. They guy said he could not see the appeal. The appeal to the S over the 3 is easy to understand. Might not be for you or him but it’s appeal is not hard to understand. I have kids and neither the S or the 3 work anymore so I drive the X. We have the Macan now too and it’s a sick car but the X is superior in many ways. Love your 3 no need to shit on the other offerings.

Im not "shitting" on other offerings.  Half of Surly drive SUVs and its not my position or anyone else's to dictate what their personal preferences should be.

Im objecting the absolutism that bigger and longer is an appeal in a car.  It can be for some, but it certainly is not for others, especially in a sporting/dynamics context.

 

[troph 24548]

That’s another pretty cool feature of all of them, the regenerative braking. I only use my brake to hold a complete stop or to stop quickly. I rarely tap the breaks approaching a red light.

[troph 24548]

Im not "shitting" on other offerings.  Half of Surly drive SUVs and its not my position or anyone else's to dictate what their personal preferences should be.
Im objecting the absolutism that bigger and longer is an appeal in a car.  It can be for some, but it certainly is not for others, especially in a sporting/dynamics context.
 

I wasn’t the absolutist. I was responding to an absolutist. The 3 has many appeals, but the appeal to the S over 3 is the performance models and they belong in a different class, and if sub 3 seconds makes you tingle then it’s a bad ass offering. There’s nothing absolutist about that. The 3 has its place so does the S and there are reasons to want both. Saying the 3 is superior is poppycock and like his opinion man. I simply offered the “why” someone would prefer the S.

[52-80 19066]

21 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

WTF is a Taycan Turbo S?

Also, is there no brake pedal at all on these electrics?  Or can you just get away without using it most of the time?

Normal brake pedal.  You use it for fun driving, for highway setting, etc.  You typically dont need it if driving around urban setting because of slow decel rate.  Its basically akin to staying at mid-rev in a manual transmission car , except it goes progressively all the way down to a standstill.

14 minutes ago, troph said:

I wasn’t the absolutist. I was responding to an absolutist. The 3 has many appeals, but the appeal to the S over 3 is the performance models and they belong in a different class, and if sub 3 seconds makes you tingle then it’s a bad ass offering. There’s nothing absolutist about that. The 3 has its place so does the S and there are reasons to want both. Saying the 3 is superior is poppycock and like his opinion man. I simply offered the “why” someone would prefer the S.

Sorry if that went out of complete context.  I stand by that the S is a more comfortable, roomier grand touring car.  The 3 is the more agile, sportier car.  GT is not a disparaging designation - they include fast cars.  But the 3 sports sedan is the one you hustle on backroads.  Just like the Cayenne can put up better numbers but I'm sure you prefer tossing the Macan around.

Final question then: how many times have you fully deployed the Ludicrous launch?

 

[troph 24548]

I’m in the X (P90D) and have steering on sport and acceleration on “insane” not “insane+” at all times. I punch it off the line up to the speed limit at a red light if I’ve got enough battery to accomplish my goals and some room for frivolity and I’m first on the line. I go out of my way to stop at lights in my car. So yeah high-end performance matters to me.

I don’t disagree about the benefits of a smaller car but Macan : cayenne :: model 3 : model S isn’t a proper analogy. Maybe Y to X is. And the literature on the Macan to cayenne is pretty clear the Macan S drives more like the high end sports cars Porsche offers, and that comes back to the 911 which the S is a peer at least on 0-60 mph - I would not take any Tesla against the Porsche sports car offerings in a road race compare.

[TwiceHorn 31184]

What does launch control do in an electric car?  I know what it does in an internal combustion engine with an AT.

Is it basically a throttle map?

[52-80 19066]

5 minutes ago, troph said:

I’m in the X (P90D) and have steering on sport and acceleration on “insane” not “insane+” at all times. I punch it off the line up to the speed limit at a red light if I’ve got enough battery to accomplish my goals and some room for frivolity and I’m first on the line. I go out of my way to stop at lights in my car. So yeah high-end performance matters to me.

I don’t disagree about the benefits of a smaller car but Macan : cayenne :: model 3 : model S isn’t a proper analogy. Maybe Y to X is. And the literature on the Macan to cayenne is pretty clear the Macan S drives more like the high end sports cars Porsche offers, and that comes back to the 911 which the S is a peer.

But the "fastest cars 0-60 on the road" list isn't an "insane" result, it is an ephemeral result of a 30-minute-long or whatever procedure for a launch prep.

i.e., without that very specific procedure, your everyday punch off the line doesn't make the list.

The S is closer to a peer of the Panamera than a 911, if we're looking at total performance, but w/e...

4 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

What does launch control do in an electric car?  I know what it does in an internal combustion engine with an AT.

Is it basically a throttle map?

for the S its a procedure to warm up the battery to temp for maximum current discharge, and also change suspention squat for better weight distribution at launch

[Beantown Express 2.0 6531]

Glad I started this thread so everyone could “fight” over this topic.  I like the exterior of the S over the 3 and I know that is just an opinion but when buying a car the way it looks to the buyer matters.  Also, I live in a house/don’t commute except to the airport which apparently may never happen again due to Covid so I really don’t drive much.  I like the acceleration on the Teslas but honestly I don’t need the performance Model S just the Long Range.  I am currently in a Mercedes CLS 400 so the Long Range acceleration is still better that what I am used to and probably all I would ever need.  Especially when the difference is $20K more for the Performance version.  I also like the second screen on the S compared to the 3.  Once again an opinion but I like that while driving and yes I may get used to just the one screen on the 3 but no need to change if I don’t have to.  I am basically moving from a MB sports sedan to a Tesla sports sedan so I like the idea of going electric, less maintenance, and having a somewhat quick and comfortable car.  Have one kid so I need a back seat but don’t need a SUV (the wife has that already).  

[Beantown Express 2.0 6531]

Forgot to add that the Taycan is a lot more money than a Tesla S so not really in my budget although I am sure it is a cool car.

[elfenix 34168]

3 hours ago, troph said:

That’s another pretty cool feature of all of them, the regenerative braking. I only use my brake to hold a complete stop or to stop quickly. I rarely tap the breaks approaching a red light.

i'm amazed at your usage of both "brake" and "breaks" in this post.

[Dahobbs 17420]

2 hours ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

Forgot to add that the Taycan is a lot more money than a Tesla S so not really in my budget although I am sure it is a cool car.

Depends on what model you are buying. The Taycan 4s is "only" 100k, which isn't that much more than a Performance S. But if you're just looking at the Long Range S, I totally get it.  You still might want to check out the Polestar 2 as it has a much nicer interior for less money than the Long Range. I love my Tesla, but there are advantages to going with the products from more established manufacturers (or spin offs of established manufacturers). 

[Beantown Express 2.0 6531]

36 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Depends on what model you are buying. The Taycan 4s is "only" 100k, which isn't that much more than a Performance S. But if you're just looking at the Long Range S, I totally get it.  You still might want to check out the Polestar 2 as it has a much nicer interior for less money than the Long Range. I love my Tesla, but there are advantages to going with the products from more established manufacturers (or spin offs of established manufacturers). 

Yeah, looking more in the $75K range vs the $100K so that knocks out the Taycan.    Is your last sentence saying you would steer away from Tesla?  Not sure I understand what you were getting at.  It seems like Tesla may have a better track record with electric cars than say Jaguar, Audi, MB so I wonder if their electrics may not be as good as a Tesla as far as build and overall technology.  Oh, and the Polestar doesn’t look great to me on the outside and I think that brand is fairly new so I would be worried about reliability.