Electric Cars

[6th Street 6340]

Fisker Ocean at $37k 2WD and $50k Dual Motor is the Model Y killer IMO. 

[Grimas 658]

For those of you who have EV's, how much did your electricity bill go up when you connected your car?

[texhorn 351]

2 hours ago, Grimas said:

For those of you who have EV's, how much did your electricity bill go up when you connected your car?

 

I've barely noticed it. Since this past Thanksgiving, my total charge cost per my EVSE (exclusively charge at home) has been $47 (roughly 1,200 miles added during that time). I'm paying about 12 cents per kWh with PEC. 

Edited January 16, 2022 by texhorn

[Dahobbs 17420]

6 hours ago, Grimas said:

For those of you who have EV's, how much did your electricity bill go up when you connected your car?

I think about 20 bucks a month? It just depends on how much you drive. My gas expenditure has decreased by a lot more. 

[52-80 19066]

On 1/13/2022 at 6:02 PM, 6th Street said:

Fisker Ocean at $37k 2WD and $50k Dual Motor is the Model Y killer IMO. 

it would be if Fisker the person and his businesses werent such a trainwreck.  everything from that guy is vaporware until rubber meets the road. 

[Dahobbs 17420]

On 1/16/2022 at 11:05 AM, Grimas said:

For those of you who have EV's, how much did your electricity bill go up when you connected your car?

I went ahead and pulled the numbers.

I've had the car 23 months (bought February of 2020). In that time I've driven 17,317 miles. The car reports a usage of 4,420 kwh. Let's add 5% to that to account for charging loses, so 4,641 kwh. My electric rate is a bit higher than normal at $.139 per kwh because I have a solar buy back plan.  Almost all of my charging has been done at home.  Maybe 10% has been at a supercharger, but for purposes of this exercise let's just assume 100% at home. That means, assuming I had been charged for each kwh used (I wasn't due to solar), that means the car has cost me:

• $645 to charge over the last 23 months
• $28 per month. 
• $.037 per mile

Let's now assume that 10% of that mileage was paid at the supercharger rate of $.24 per kwh 

• $691 to charge
• $30 per month
• $.040 per mile

Assuming all charging done at supercharger:

• $1,113 to charge
• $48 per month
• $.064 per mile

prior A4 got ~27 mpg. At $2.50 per gallon:

• $1,603 over the same mileage
• $69 per month assuming the same usage
• $.092 per mile

N.B. actual gas cost was probably more as the car used premium. 

 

[MillerEP 30339]

Didn't notice this thread before. We pulled the trigger on a Volkswagen ID.4 Pros a few months back. Due to working from home now for both of us, we don't drive much. I think I've only had to charge it maybe 4 times since we got it. I sprung for the in-home level 2 charger, so it's been nice and convenient. Pretty sweet car too once we got over everything is a touchscreen learning curve. 

[cabowabo 4449]

19 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

Daughter is turning 16-- thinking about getting her an EV. Good idea? Bad idea? (e.g. range anxiety, responsibility with charging, etc.).

Looking at older Tesla 3's and other cheaper varieties (Kia, Mazda, etc.)

Anyone bought an EV for their kid and have any feedback?

Two problems I see here.  16 years old and female.  

[fattyflattie 4636]

2 hours ago, cabowabo said:

Two problems I see here.  16 years old and female.  

I would trust my 11 yo daughter to behave better at 11 than I did with the V8 4x4 I had at that age.  Luckily I was out of the wreckage phase within a few years. 

[Dahobbs 17420]

2 hours ago, BeardIP said:

Daughter is turning 16-- thinking about getting her an EV. Good idea? Bad idea? (e.g. range anxiety, responsibility with charging, etc.).

Looking at older Tesla 3's and other cheaper varieties (Kia, Mazda, etc.)

Anyone bought an EV for their kid and have any feedback?

Other than them generally being more expensive to purchase, it seems like a good idea to me. There isn't as much stuff to maintain, so the car ignorant can't do a lot to break it. Common pitfalls for new car owners like brake pad and oil changes aren't really thing (you still technically have to check the brakes every once a while, but they shouldn't get much use). The one thing I would be careful about with a teenager is the extra power most EVs have. That has the potential for getting a new driver in trouble. Look at locking it in chill mode or whatever depending on the manufacturer you go with. If she is charging at home, I can't see range anxiety being an issue. But if she'll be driving between cities fairly often, you'll probably want to go with either a Tesla or a Ford at this point (since Ford now has access to the super charger network). Other manufacturers will be getting access to the super charger network overtime, but until then relying on the other networks, primarily Electrify America, can be a bit hit or miss (should get better over time based on legislation). 

[topochico 1049]

2 hours ago, BeardIP said:

Daughter is turning 16-- thinking about getting her an EV. Good idea? Bad idea? (e.g. range anxiety, responsibility with charging, etc.).

Looking at older Tesla 3's and other cheaper varieties (Kia, Mazda, etc.)

Anyone bought an EV for their kid and have any feedback?

Maybe consider collision repair costs as well. Not unusual for a teenager to have a bump or two along the way. I would discuss with your insurance company the cost differential of insuring a teen with a Model 3 vs a late model ICE. 

[gsoda3 3234]

We're not going to let our kids touch our Tesla. It's inevitable they're going to get in an accident and the costs of fixing those things are so much higher than an ICE

[MonkeyDoughnut 10134]

Is this the car you're planning on your kid taking to college? Does she know where she's planning to go? 

Edited March 1 by MonkeyDoughnut

[royiv 9131]

Hertz is selling off their Hertz fleet at fire sale prices right now, but as @gsoda3 mentioned, there’s a reason they’re unloading it on the cheap.

[52-80 19066]

18 hours ago, BeardIP said:

Daughter is turning 16-- thinking about getting her an EV. Good idea? Bad idea? (e.g. range anxiety, responsibility with charging, etc.).

Looking at older Tesla 3's and other cheaper varieties (Kia, Mazda, etc.)

Anyone bought an EV for their kid and have any feedback?

do the tesla for easiest access to public charging (even if the other cars slowly gain access to supercharger, they still have functional hurdles)

+ultra safe

+way fewer moving parts in the drivetrain so no worries about warming up, transmission shock, oil changes, and all the other stuff that teens neglect

 

On 1/13/2022 at 6:02 PM, 6th Street said:

Fisker Ocean at $37k 2WD and $50k Dual Motor is the Model Y killer IMO. 

very pretty car, because henrik fisker is a good designer, but looks like this company is very soon to croak.  their investor relations announcement as of yesterday:
 

Quote

 

Substantial Doubt About Fisker’s Ability to Continue as a Going Concern

Fisker expects its capital expenditures and working capital requirements to decrease during 2024 and beyond as it enters the second year of Ocean production. The company’s business plan is highly dependent on the successful transition to its new Dealer Partner model in 2024. Furthermore, to the extent Fisker’s current resources are insufficient to satisfy its requirements over the next 12 months, the company will need to seek additional equity or debt financing, and there can be no assurance that Fisker will be successful in these efforts. If the financing is not available, or if the terms of financing are less desirable than Fisker expects, the company may be forced to decrease its planned level of investment in product development, scale back its operations including further headcount reductions, and reduce production of the Fisker Ocean, which could have an adverse impact on the company’s business and financial prospects. As a result, the company expects to conclude there is substantial doubt about its ability to continue as a going concern when its annual financial statements for the year ended December 31, 2023, are filed with the SEC.

 

 

[gmr548 16463]

Drove my first EV as a rental on a recent trip to CA - a Polestar, which I guess is a car and not a stripper. Cheapest rental option by a mile, through Hertz.

It's like 90% the same but I did notice the quicker acceleration. I also drive a little soy boi Honda Fit on the daily so there are bicycles that accelerate quicker, FWIW. Charging was very easy to find. The technology u[grade over my normal spartan car was more fun than anything.

Hopefully I'm not on the car market for several more years but I'm pretty sure my next vehicle will be an EV.

 

[Handcruser 2805]

 
I think they will sell every one they will build.  And companies that have fleets of F-150's, that never leave a metro area, will buy them up as well.  I'd have one in a minute.  
It is, functionally, a F-150.  It's a known quantity, just with electric power. Yes, there are going to be towing limitations, but Ford will happily sell you a gas or diesel truck if that's a concern.  
Compare it to Tesla's "truck" or a Rivian.   Sure, they are edgy and unique, but a squad of plumbers aren't going to be using one to get to their job.   
I suspect the Chevy truck will sell well too.  
 
 
 

Ford cant sell them. They’re sitting on lots around the country.

[Dahobbs 17420]

7 hours ago, Handcruser said:

Ford cant sell them. They’re sitting on lots around the country.

Price raises and stocking just the highest end models really hurt. But this isn't just an EV thing, trucks in general are piling up. https://www.spglobal.com/mobility/en/research-analysis/january-inventory-trends-advertised-prices-dropping.html

 

Edited March 2 by Dahobbs

[Updawg 2260]

Hertz is selling off their Hertz fleet at fire sale prices right now, but as [mention=1107]gsoda3[/mention] mentioned, there’s a reason they’re unloading it on the cheap.

Why is that? I couldn’t find his post

[torre 1284]

11 minutes ago, Updawg said:

Why is that? I couldn’t find his post

CNN article from January.    Doesn't mention increased insurance costs for individual consumers.

 

Electric vehicles have been hurting Hertz’s financials, executives have said, because, despite costing less to maintain, they have higher damage-repair costs and, also, higher depreciation.

“[C]ollision and damage repairs on an EV can often run about twice that associated with a comparable combustion engine vehicle,” Hertz CEO Stephen Scherr said in a recent analyst call.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/11/business/hertz-tesla-selling/index.html

[royiv 9131]

34 minutes ago, Updawg said:

Why is that? I couldn’t find his post

Much more expensive to repair collision damage than ICE cars. 

[elfenix 34168]

is that something inherent to EVs or is it because of designs that could also happen on ICE cars such as rivian's ginormous unipanel?

[Dahobbs 17420]

7 hours ago, elfenix said:

is that something inherent to EVs or is it because of designs that could also happen on ICE cars such as rivian's ginormous unipanel?

It is largely related to how Tesla manufacturers its vehicles. And Hertz' electric fleet was primarily Teslas. 

[MonkeyDoughnut 10134]

10 hours ago, elfenix said:

is that something inherent to EVs or is it because of designs that could also happen on ICE cars such as rivian's ginormous unipanel?

They are high voltage machines. Not a lot of shops capable of handling them yet and certainly DIY is off the table with the potential dangers.  ICE car engine off is pretty safe, EV...not as much.

[HRSchenker 2257]

11 hours ago, elfenix said:

is that something inherent to EVs or is it because of designs that could also happen on ICE cars such as rivian's ginormous unipanel?

Tesla has a near monopoly on service. Outside of tires and suspensions I don't know anyone locally that is willing to work on my Model 3. Hell it took me a few calls to shops just to find one willing to change my tires.

[NWBuck 8543]

Have learned a lot from this thread... Thanks! 

Any thoughts on the plug-in hybrids? Seems like a possibility for either the best or worst of both worlds. 

[gmr548 16463]

On 3/2/2024 at 7:24 AM, Handcruser said:

Ford cant sell them. They’re sitting on lots around the country.

Heh, funny you say this. Evidently their EV sales were up 81% YOY for February.

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/03/04/ford-february-sales-hybrids-evs.html

Edited March 4 by gmr548

[52-80 19066]

17 hours ago, gmr548 said:

Heh, funny you say this. Evidently their EV sales were up 81% YOY for February.

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/03/04/ford-february-sales-hybrids-evs.html

Feb and Mar of last year were historically low for their business.

Over a longer term trend they have modest growth in volume

The more concerning thing is worsening unit economics.  The more EVs they sell, the more money they lose.  (Is it plant expansion?)

It is a matter of how long they continue to subsidize it from their traditional business.  Q4 Ford traditional vehicles earned 0.8B (and steadily dropping) and Ford trucks earned 1.8B. 

Ford trucks is keeping the whole company afloat.

[gmr548 16463]

5 hours ago, 52-80 said:

Feb and Mar of last year were historically low for their business.

Over a longer term trend they have modest growth in volume

The more concerning thing is worsening unit economics.  The more EVs they sell, the more money they lose.  (Is it plant expansion?)

It is a matter of how long they continue to subsidize it from their traditional business.  Q4 Ford traditional vehicles earned 0.8B (and steadily dropping) and Ford trucks earned 1.8B. 

Ford trucks is keeping the whole company afloat.

Yeah I was reading an interesting article the other day - can't remember if it was CNBC, WSJ, NYT, or whoever - basically detailing the pinch American automakers are in. Chinese EVs are evidently getting very cheap (like $10k-$15k/vehicle, I had no idea) and they can flood the market. Trucks + SUVs remain the revenue drivers in North America and will be counted on as such as the EV line gets up to speed, but they face pressure from those really cheap Chinese EV models. If those start eating into sales before American vehicles EVs can compete on price point they stand to lose quite a bit of market share both at home and abroad, and as you outline would be in a very precarious financial position if the EV investment doesn't pay off. Will be interesting to watch.

[52-80 19066]

35 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

Yeah I was reading an interesting article the other day - can't remember if it was CNBC, WSJ, NYT, or whoever - basically detailing the pinch American automakers are in. Chinese EVs are evidently getting very cheap (like $10k-$15k/vehicle, I had no idea) and they can flood the market. Trucks + SUVs remain the revenue drivers in North America and will be counted on as such as the EV line gets up to speed, but they face pressure from those really cheap Chinese EV models. If those start eating into sales before American vehicles EVs can compete on price point they stand to lose quite a bit of market share both at home and abroad, and as you outline would be in a very precarious financial position if the EV investment doesn't pay off. Will be interesting to watch.

The chinese manufacturers, which is chiefly BYD, sells a ton in their home market. BYD gets very thin margins because most of the sales are very small mini-class cars, and they even have a margin because they own the battery supply chain. 

The other guys like Xpeng, NIO, last I checked were money losers  

All have had distribution in Europe but have not made any traction. If the western markets have much more acceptance of EVs as a whole, i think the  small cars from BYD will catch on. The full sized cars from traditional manufacturers seem in a very bad spot. 

[gsoda3 3234]

31 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

The chinese manufacturers, which is chiefly BYD, sells a ton in their home market. BYD gets very thin margins because most of the sales are very small mini-class cars, and they even have a margin because they own the battery supply chain. 

The other guys like Xpeng, NIO, last I checked were money losers  

All have had distribution in Europe but have not made any traction. If the western markets have much more acceptance of EVs as a whole, i think the  small cars from BYD will catch on. The full sized cars from traditional manufacturers seem in a very bad spot. 

Li auto and Geely are the only other two off the top of my head who are profitable.  With Geely it's not by much.  

[52-80 19066]

20 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

Li auto and Geely are the only other two off the top of my head who are profitable.  With Geely it's not by much.  

the polestar sub-brand is really unhealthy. i dont know the rest of geelys structure and which subsidiaries have EVs, but i imagine its only the small cars ekeing a profit in china

[gsoda3 3234]

9 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

the polestar sub-brand is really unhealthy. i dont know the rest of geelys structure and which subsidiaries have EVs, but i imagine its only the small cars ekeing a profit in china

does geely still own polestar? i lost track a long time ago of who actually owns them.  they haven't blipped my radar significantly enough for me to know.

[52-80 19066]

11 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

does geely still own polestar? i lost track a long time ago of who actually owns them.  they haven't blipped my radar significantly enough for me to know.

no and yes. latest event was that volvo divested most of its stake in polestar. but the purchaser was geely, who had already owned most of volvo. so it just amounted to in-house restructuring.  

[partytimesausage 27]

I bought a chevy bolt on a whim to be a little commuter car and i absolutely love the little bastard.  Incredible value packed into that little fucker. 

[troph 24548]

I can’t see Chinese EVs gaining any serious traction in the US. I guess if they are cheap enough but fear of spying, fear of spontaneous combustion, fear of unreliability seem to be a likely impediment. I guess if they prove not to be those things ok. But what do I know. 

[Dahobbs 17420]

2 hours ago, troph said:

I can’t see Chinese EVs gaining any serious traction in the US. I guess if they are cheap enough but fear of spying, fear of spontaneous combustion, fear of unreliability seem to be a likely impediment. I guess if they prove not to be those things ok. But what do I know. 

The evidence I've seen so far is that the newer Chinese vehicles are pretty comparable to western vehicles. But, then again, who knows if that holds up under comprehensive crash testing. 

[troph 24548]

1 hour ago, Dahobbs said:

The evidence I've seen so far is that the newer Chinese vehicles are pretty comparable to western vehicles. But, then again, who knows if that holds up under comprehensive crash testing. 

I didn’t mean to imply they were or weren’t but that perception would be suspect. But again what do I know? 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

The evidence I've seen so far is that the newer Chinese vehicles are pretty comparable to western vehicles. But, then again, who knows if that holds up under comprehensive crash testing. 

Would they even be willing to admit one of their vehicles had a crash?

[hornbri 1367]

Missed this topic before. 

I have a Rivian and absolutely love it, to make this post timely, the Tesla CSS network will open to Rivian’s this week. As they expand to more vendors that sure will open up a lot of charge locations. 

 

[Dish Boggett 67]

2 hours ago, hornbri said:

Missed this topic before. 

I have a Rivian and absolutely love it, to make this post timely, the Tesla CSS network will open to Rivian’s this week. As they expand to more vendors that sure will open up a lot of charge locations. 

 

RS or RT?

 

I think the RS1 is nice looking. 

[hornbri 1367]

3 hours ago, Dish Boggett said:

RS or RT?

 

I think the RS1 is nice looking. 

R1S, I do really like it. They just unveiled the next model R2S which will be a little smaller SUV starting at 47.5k (in 2026)

[zman13 178]

On 1/13/2022 at 11:02 AM, 6th Street said:

Fisker Ocean at $37k 2WD and $50k Dual Motor is the Model Y killer IMO. 

Hopefully no one on this board bought the Ocean or any other Fisker

[Dish Boggett 67]

18 minutes ago, hornbri said:

R1S, I do really like it. They just unveiled the next model R2S which will be a little smaller SUV starting at 47.5k (in 2026)

How does it compare size wise with a Tahoe? On my 3rd Tahoe and have always liked them.  I use all of the space behind 2nd row for some tool boxes and other items.  
 

[YChang 3430]

On 3/18/2024 at 9:46 AM, hornbri said:

Missed this topic before. 

I have a Rivian and absolutely love it, to make this post timely, the Tesla CSS network will open to Rivian’s this week. As they expand to more vendors that sure will open up a lot of charge locations. 

 

I would buy a R2 right now if it was in inventory. Damn the wait...

[52-80 19066]

On 3/17/2024 at 3:00 PM, troph said:

I can’t see Chinese EVs gaining any serious traction in the US. I guess if they are cheap enough but fear of spying, fear of spontaneous combustion, fear of unreliability seem to be a likely impediment. I guess if they prove not to be those things ok. But what do I know. 

like basically every other far-east product ever, they look great on paper specs wise but fall apart in actual execution and polish, which in the modern world has a lot to do with software.  seems like a trivial thing (its just software!) but hugely impacts user experience.

not strictly chinese, but vietnam's vinfast came in with some hype and turns out to be some of the worst vehicles ever

 

On 3/18/2024 at 9:57 PM, zman13 said:

Hopefully no one on this board bought the Ocean or any other Fisker

legendary designer.  he did this beauty.  terrible everything else

 

[thunderlounge 7733]

10 hours ago, 52-80 said:

like basically every other far-east product ever, they look great on paper specs wise but fall apart in actual execution and polish, which in the modern world has a lot to do with software.  seems like a trivial thing (its just software!) but hugely impacts user experience.

So like everything else there, it comes down to execution?

[tokamak 6350]

Thread bump.

We may be in the market for a new car soon. I'd really like to go electric if possible. My personal reasons go something like this 1) carbon footprint, 2) potentially less maintenance due to fewer moving parts, and 3) being a little fun to drive with instant torque. This would be purely a commuter car - 50 miles a day and charged every night at home. We have a gas SUV that will be our road trip vehicle for the foreseeable future. Fears about range and charging speed aren't a big deal to me.

Not interested in Tesla at this time. Hyundai Ioniq 6 is what I've had my eye on the most but I haven't done a ton of research on what's out there. F-150 Lightning and Mustang Mach E both have their appeal for different reasons.

My big hang up is long-term reliability. When I buy a car, I want to drive it until the wheels fall off. A vehicle should last me at least 150k miles. The upside is that concerns about EV resale value don't bother me much. On the other hand, other than Tesla these are all brand new models (or brand new manufacturers like Polestar, etc) packed with brand new technology and that makes me very wary. From what little reading I've done, seems like concerns about the battery pack lifetime are overblown, but it's all the other electronics that worry me. I'd love to hear some thoughts from EV drivers, or others who have looked into it. Should I just buy a hybrid Camry and forget it?

[gsoda3 3234]

30 minutes ago, tokamak said:

Should I just buy a hybrid Camry and forget it?

you'll have double the worries then (ICE and electric motor)

[tokamak 6350]

17 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

you'll have double the worries then (ICE and electric motor)

True but supposedly Toyota has pretty much perfected the hybrid drivetrain because the Prius has been around so long. CR says hybrids in general (not specifically Toyotas or Camrys) are the most reliable, I think.