How to talk to Republicans who don't like "your facts" or facts in general.

[Guest Lobo]

1 minute ago, Dnaguy said:

You’re telling me that when Superman reversed the rotation of the earth and therefore time itself, it was not accurate?

IDK man. 

I need you to start showing me your work.

You can’t just come in here and throw shit around without facts and figures.

I accept that Superman can fly.  It's just...how does he fly faster at certain times?  He basically has the same flight style cruising around Metropolis as he did when he flew so hard, he reversed the rotation of the Earth---thus moving time backward a few minutes.  Is it some sort of mental thing he does?  He does not appear to have any cognitive super-powers, only physical super-powers.    He seems to grunt and clench his fists tighter, but that's about it.  

And so Superman's varying flight velocity is an interesting analogy for dealing with the current Trumpers, Qanon'ers, Parler Users, Aggies, et. al.  They're already defying logic and reason with that are currently doing, and they think that if they just grunt and dig in deeper, they believe they can will the country to some point in the past when things were going better for them.  And apparently as Clark Kent was really Superman, John Kennedy, Jr. is really "Q"?  Is that right?  That's what my kid's future is up against?  Thanksgiving should be a fucking hoot.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

20 hours ago, Dbeasy said:

I had a serious discussion last night about this topic. We’ve decided the following:

1. Eliminate - people from our lives that we don’t care about that are too stupid or brainwashed to understand reality.

2. Tolerate - people who we want or need to have a relationship with by refusing to ever discuss politics. Ever.

3. Escape - from as much political discussion as possible because we’ve realized this problem is so big, we can’t solve it and it’s making our lives much worse by trying to figure out ways to solve it.

This.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13708]

10 hours ago, Enchubben said:

It reminds me of a situation with my staff from the kavanugh deal. The office breakroom tv was on cnn for a solid week (no remote) during that time period and multiple people complained to me and HR about it being bullshit that is was on CNN and never on Fox.  The compromise was to turn it turn to msnbc, but Christ people, get a old of yourselves. If you don’t like it, don’t watch it and get back to fucking work.

Presumably educated full time working white collar professional adults complaining about the television channel playing in a breakroom. 🤦‍♂️ 

Cnn is center-left, Fox is right but the compromise was to turn to msnbc which is left of cnn? You taught the Fox News crowd to not complain or it gets worse.

But to the overall topic, if someone starts talking far right politics, my response is how about we not talk politics. That usually shuts up most people. If they start up again. I remind them we agreed not to talk politics. I don’t care if they actually agreed or not. Now the problem for 24/7 news junkies is that they probably have nothing else to talk about. You might need to bring up the topics.

of course, so much has become politicized over the past few years. Maybe there isn’t any non politicized conversation left. Can’t even talk about weather.

[Guest]

16 hours ago, ChuckNorrisActionJeans said:

 

Ungrateful thugs kneeling for the anthem? Me: "Yeah I just wish that wasn't one of the freedoms our vets had fought for" with very serious face (freedom!!) 

This dichotomy has lead to some tough fucking conversations with friends, family, and fellow vets.  Even though I disagree with much of the reasoning for Kap's "stance;" as he changed his story multiple times and is pretty much a total shitbag; I've always maintained that we serve so that nobody should EVER be made to stand for the anthem.  Some folks just cannot rationalize it in their heads.   At that point it makes sense to me how folks could rationalize slavery, while also allegedly embracing the credo, "All men are created equal..."

It wears at me, and that's why that's a topic upon which I keep trying to chip away at what blocks people from seeing what it should be.  Are we a free people or not?   When I ask that, it gets all quiet.  I sometimes laugh because I know they recognize it, and other times feel like the idea will never resonate with them.

[immamac 44200]

7 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Cnn is center-left, Fox is right but the compromise was to turn to msnbc which is left of cnn? You taught the Fox News crowd to not complain or it gets worse.

But to the overall topic, if someone starts talking far right politics, my response is how about we not talk politics. That usually shuts up most people. If they start up again. I remind them we agreed not to talk politics. I don’t care if they actually agreed or not. Now the problem for 24/7 news junkies is that they probably have nothing else to talk about. You might need to bring up the topics.

of course, so much has become politicized over the past few years. Maybe there isn’t any non politicized conversation left. Can’t even talk about weather.

Or you know...you can watch actual unbias unslanted news on ABC. You can also watch coverage on CSPAN for most things. 

[WhatTheBuck 28904]

38 minutes ago, Lobo said:

I accept that Superman can fly.  It's just...how does he fly faster at certain times?  He basically has the same flight style cruising around Metropolis as he did when he flew so hard, he reversed the rotation of the Earth---thus moving time backward a few minutes.  Is it some sort of mental thing he does?  He does not appear to have any cognitive super-powers, only physical super-powers.    He seems to grunt and clench his fists tighter, but that's about it.  

And so Superman's varying flight velocity is an interesting analogy for dealing with the current Trumpers, Qanon'ers, Parler Users, Aggies, et. al.  They're already defying logic and reason with that are currently doing, and they think that if they just grunt and dig in deeper, they believe they can will the country to some point in the past when things were going better for them.  And apparently as Clark Kent was really Superman, John Kennedy, Jr. is really "Q"?  Is that right?  That's what my kid's future is up against?  Thanksgiving should be a fucking hoot.

Why wouldn't he have super humor?

[Nice Guy Eddie 13708]

I previously would get annoyed if someone didn’t stand or refuse to take off their cap for the anthem. Then at a football game, an adult son of a friend refused to stand and his dad, my friend, was pissed. The son had been injured during a tour in Afghanistan and was unhappy at the US. Opened my eyes that Americans have a right to say fuck you to the US. 

And it also fair that you don’t have to like it when someone kneels or sits but you should agree it’s their right. And don’t be a baby about it.

[Hank Kingsley 21598]

Having dinner with my Trumpkin in-laws tonight for the first time since the election. I think the wife and I's plan is just not to bring it up at all. Try to have a pleasant evening and act like life is normally going on. 

The entire Trumpkin movement clearly gets off when "libs cry", so we'll deny them that drama. If they want to bring it up, fine. But we'll be changing the subject pretty quickly. 

[Enchubben 5598]

18 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Cnn is center-left, Fox is right but the compromise was to turn to msnbc which is left of cnn? You taught the Fox News crowd to not complain or it gets worse.

But to the overall topic, if someone starts talking far right politics, my response is how about we not talk politics. That usually shuts up most people. If they start up again. I remind them we agreed not to talk politics. I don’t care if they actually agreed or not. Now the problem for 24/7 news junkies is that they probably have nothing else to talk about. You might need to bring up the topics.

of course, so much has become politicized over the past few years. Maybe there isn’t any non politicized conversation left. Can’t even talk about weather.

Disagree on cnn, but the compromise was to put it on a network that wasn’t doing nonstop coverage of the hearing. MSNBC was at least switching back and forth at the time. My vote was to remove the tv or turn it off.

[SydneyCarton 49330]

I wonder if a policy of no politics at work would help. Places that block gmail and FB during work hours could block all news sites. No TV news. It would never catch 100% but it might catch 50. Force people to watch the news on their free time at least. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

17 minutes ago, slorch said:

This dichotomy has lead to some tough fucking conversations with friends, family, and fellow vets.  Even though I disagree with much of the reasoning for Kap's "stance;" as he changed his story multiple times and is pretty much a total shitbag; I've always maintained that we serve so that nobody should EVER be made to stand for the anthem.  Some folks just cannot rationalize it in their heads.   At that point it makes sense to me how folks could rationalize slavery, while also allegedly embracing the credo, "All men are created equal..."

It wears at me, and that's why that's a topic upon which I keep trying to chip away at what blocks people from seeing what it should be.  Are we a free people or not?   When I ask that, it gets all quiet.  I sometimes laugh because I know they recognize it, and other times feel like the idea will never resonate with them.

I don't always agree with your takes, but I agree with your last paragraph quite a bit. Got in an argument with someone last week over the flag. Her spouse is in the local DA's office and she was venting about the left/leftists/antifa/kneelers/BLM  younameit. She is very supportive of the police dept, to which I am sympathetic up to a point, due to her spouse's profession. But the 'back the blue' flag bothers me for a couple of reasons which I mentioned to her. She countered with 'I hate those thugs that burn the American flag and you agree that it's okay to do so.' Should I have been surprised that someone born and raised in Texas and whose husband is an attorney is unfamiliar with Supreme Court cases, specifically landmark cases whose origins were 1)in her lifetime and 2) in Texas? Nah, par for the course.

She and I go at it hammer and tongs sometimes, but at the end of the day, we reach a detente of sorts and move forward. We have come a long way toward recognizing each others flaws, but we make an attempt to be honest with each other and that helps. I also dug in my heels a little by drawing a line with respect to disinfo. Bluntly put, I'm not going to be your dictionary, thesaurus, fact-checker when you bring me someone else's work that you haven't taken the time to research and source. It's your statement, so either back it up or GTFO. You bring crap to the table, I don't have to sit down and eat it, nor do I need to push it around my plate and pretend it's edible for consumption.

Am very fortunate that blood relatives are either nonpolitical or sane with respect to espousing a viewpoint and supporting it. Have a family member who is a Libertarian through and through and he and I get along just fine, but then he was adamant all along that Trump should never have been elected in the first place.

[Nivek 17331]

20 hours ago, Tuco said:

I've tried this approach.  Try to focus on a very narrow, easily provable set of facts.  Anything that relies on media reports will not be sufficient.  You need original quotes, preferably by Republican sources.  The theory is that if I can get them to agree that something out of their echo chamber is false, maybe that will drive enough of a wedge that they will stop listening to the echo chamber.  It's like the Miracle Worker, where if I can just teach them to sign W-A-T-E-R, everything else will fall in place. I haven't been successful yet.  I've been able to convince them of a single item, but they quickly change the subject.  They don't want to examine why they believed the bullshit in the first place. Still, I will continue to try this method on people who are at least trying to appear like they are engaging in a conversation.  

I've done this approach, mostly on random social media.  The idea is that if you get them to show their ass enough, they won't enjoy it, and maybe they will be more reluctant to post bullshit.  It does nothing to help change their mind, but at least it can slow down the rate in which they post misinformation.  I've had some success in this. 

This is what I have discovered when challenging them on human rights issues.  As long as they can pull out a "both sides" argument, there is no reason to address the basic problem.  It's not important whether kids are in cages, causing trauma that will haunt them for the rest of their lives.  The only thing that matters is whether the Obama administration also put kids in cages.  Because the political point is more important than ending the cruelty.  Because the cruelty does not bother them, it only bothers them that it might hurt Trump.  

For what it is worth, my Mom was able to come back to reality.   It was a long, difficult battle but she cracked.  She could see how shitty Trump was, but she was convinced that Biden was just as dirty.  We have continued to show her she was right even after the election.  Trumps 4 Seasons, best people,  Biden's lack of family within the cabinet, we continue to reinforce her choice.    

I disagree with Wildcat to a degree.  My father instilled with me a set of values he now violates.  Not because he changed, but the propaganda machine warped his understanding of reality.   He thinks the rich are suffering, Christians are being assaulted, and babies are being slaughtered, George Soros!, and Republicans are being persecuted/obstructed by the Libs.   

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

The Koch family is so persecuted they have to hold their super secret political meetings with other billionaires in buildings with white noise machines set up so they aren't overheard. That's some serious persecution right there.

[GopherRock 1773]

52 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

I don't always agree with your takes, but I agree with your last paragraph quite a bit. Got in an argument with someone last week over the flag. Her spouse is in the local DA's office and she was venting about the left/leftists/antifa/kneelers/BLM  younameit. She is very supportive of the police dept, to which I am sympathetic up to a point, due to her spouse's profession. But the 'back the blue' flag bothers me for a couple of reasons which I mentioned to her. She countered with 'I hate those thugs that burn the American flag and you agree that it's okay to do so.' Should I have been surprised that someone born and raised in Texas and whose husband is an attorney is unfamiliar with Supreme Court cases, specifically landmark cases whose origins were 1)in her lifetime and 2) in Texas? Nah, par for the course.

She and I go at it hammer and tongs sometimes, but at the end of the day, we reach a detente of sorts and move forward. We have come a long way toward recognizing each others flaws, but we make an attempt to be honest with each other and that helps. I also dug in my heels a little by drawing a line with respect to disinfo. Bluntly put, I'm not going to be your dictionary, thesaurus, fact-checker when you bring me someone else's work that you haven't taken the time to research and source. It's your statement, so either back it up or GTFO. You bring crap to the table, I don't have to sit down and eat it, nor do I need to push it around my plate and pretend it's edible for consumption.

Am very fortunate that blood relatives are either nonpolitical or sane with respect to espousing a viewpoint and supporting it. Have a family member who is a Libertarian through and through and he and I get along just fine, but then he was adamant all along that Trump should never have been elected in the first place.

Ask her if she's down with flag desecration, because that's what a Back the Blue flag is. 

[Mole 4338]

8 hours ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

When and where exactly did we posses these things to trade? 

Fair question. I’m not sure, but this moment seems different. It could be just be a lack of perspective due to the immediacy of it, but it seems different. A large portion of the population is gleefully abandoning all sense of reality. In the past, we justified our national sins through tortured logic, now we have a movement declare that nothing exists. Listening to the national discourse even a generation ago, the contrast is stark.

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

5 minutes ago, GopherRock said:

Ask her if she's down with flag desecration, because that's what a Back the Blue flag is. 

That was one of the reasons it bothered me, so yes I mentioned it. That was what eventually led to her comment regarding flag burning. I don't see those two actions as the same, however.

[TwiceHorn 31993]

15 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Yep.  My experience that perfectly encapsulated how they see the world was when a dear old family friend posted an already thoroughly debunked story "Matthew McConaughey endorses Trump for president!"  I gently replied to tell her that actually, he hadn't done so, here's the source piece you are citing, and you can see how it doesn't say that.  There is no record, anywhere, of MM endorsing Trump.  The reply?

"You can't prove he didn't!"  So, shift the burden to the rest of the world to prove the negative.  There is no reasoning, or evidence, or productive argument with them.  Shit, no matter what conspiracy theory they run with today, the ABSENCE of evidence is PROOF OF THE CONSPIRACY.  It's literally impossible to disprove anything they believe, according to their rules of proof and evidence.  There is nothing you can say, no evidence you can present.  It doesn't matter.

We are in deep, deep, shit as a country.  And I don't see a way out of it.

Yep.  Conspiracy theories take hold on the basis of "well, it could happen."  Yes, I guess it could.  Which quickly segues into "You can't prove it didn't happen!"

[wildcat09 29559]

52 minutes ago, Nivek said:

For what it is worth, my Mom was able to come back to reality.   It was a long, difficult battle but she cracked.  She could see how shitty Trump was, but she was convinced that Biden was just as dirty.  We have continued to show her she was right even after the election.  Trumps 4 Seasons, best people,  Biden's lack of family within the cabinet, we continue to reinforce her choice.    

I disagree with Wildcat to a degree.  My father instilled with me a set of values he now violates.  Not because he changed, but the propaganda machine warped his understanding of reality.   He thinks the rich are suffering, Christians are being assaulted, and babies are being slaughtered, George Soros!, and Republicans are being persecuted/obstructed by the Libs.   

I can't speak to your father, but I think it is very common for conservatives to lie to themselves and others about what they actually value. A big part of the propaganda we all get when we're children about what makes America great are liberal ideals about freedom and equality. Those ideals have to be sold even to children of conservatives, because how many children are going to believe the fact that Jeff Bezos is the richest man in the history of the world because he denies his employees even bathroom breaks is what makes America great?

However, what conservatives really believe is there is a proper and natural social order and that any attempt to modify that is wrong. They embrace the lies and the misinformation because it gives them a way to rationalize ignoring the liberal ideals that they've been taught but don't really believe in, in much the same way they embrace their opposition to abortion as a way to rationalize their abandonment of everything Christ teaches in the Bible.

This doesn't apply to every conservative because people adopt political beliefs for a variety of reasons, but I think it pretty clearly applies to conservatism writ large (and thus, most conservatives). 

Edited November 10, 2020 by wildcat09

[TexasEd 8248]

11 hours ago, CooterBrown said:

I pretty much only associate with liberals and don’t know anyone that watches cable news.

Most listen to NPR. A few watch PBS News Hour.

To watch the election results, I had to add CNN to my YouTubeTV menu since I have all the news channels hidden.

You missed out because the best coverage was MSNBC

[TexasEd 8248]

10 hours ago, immamac said:

lolololol

I read some of that to see if he deserved any rep and bailed.

[TexasEd 8248]

2 hours ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Having dinner with my Trumpkin in-laws tonight for the first time since the election. I think the wife and I's plan is just not to bring it up at all. Try to have a pleasant evening and act like life is normally going on. 

The entire Trumpkin movement clearly gets off when "libs cry", so we'll deny them that drama. If they want to bring it up, fine. But we'll be changing the subject pretty quickly. 

Gloat, don't cry.

[Bat Guano 363]

54 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I can't speak to your father, but I think it is very common for conservatives to lie to themselves and others about what they actually value. A big part of the propaganda we all get when we're children about what makes America great are liberal ideals about freedom and equality. Those ideals have to be sold even to children of conservatives, because how many children are going to believe the fact that Jeff Bezos is the richest man in the history of the world because he denies his employees even bathroom breaks is what makes America great?

However, what conservatives really believe is there is a proper and natural social order and that any attempt to modify that is wrong. They embrace the lies and the misinformation because it gives them a way to rationalize ignoring the liberal ideals that they've been taught but don't really believe in, in much the same way they embrace their opposition to abortion as a way to rationalize their abandonment of everything Christ teaches in the Bible.

This doesn't apply to every conservative because people adopt political beliefs for a variety of reasons, but I think it pretty clearly applies to conservatism writ large (and thus, most conservatives). 

Well put. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, wildcat09 said:

 

However, what conservatives really believe is there is a proper and natural social order and that any attempt to modify that is wrong.

What?

If one believes in the American Dream at all and that tends to be a cornerstone of conservatism; it is with the notion that the individual can determine their own destiny, regardless of class at birth or social situation.

[wildcat09 29559]

2 minutes ago, slorch said:

What?

If one believes in the American Dream at all and that tends to be a cornerstone of conservatism; it is with the notion that the individual can determine their own destiny, regardless of class at birth or social situation.

My contention is pretty clearly that conservatives don't believe in the American Dream for all.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

My contention is pretty clearly that conservatives don't believe in the American Dream for all.

This thread is about facts though...see how fun the accusations are?

Edited November 10, 2020 by slorch

[NameAlreadyInUse 5165]

8 minutes ago, slorch said:

What?

If one believes in the American Dream at all and that tends to be a cornerstone of conservatism; it is with the notion that the individual can determine their own destiny, regardless of class at birth or social situation.

Part of the reason I quit calling myself a Republican was because I determined this was a value important to me, and it was not important to Republicans.  I've since discovered that the conservatives in my family simply don't believe this.  For them, being conservative is more about preserving their place, and fuck everyone else. They don't care if kids are in cages, they got tax cuts.  They don't care that their party's policies negatively affected their gay son both due to just general disdain for "the gay lifestyle" and also terrible immigration policies, they got tax cuts.  They don't care if people are wholesale discriminated against because of the color of their skin, because the group that wants to encourage that gives them tax cuts.  Now to be fair, he hasn't ever said it directly to me, but I have the impression that in the case of one of my family members that's more of a feature than a bug.  He does care, because he wants white people in power, and he gets that as a bonus with his lower taxes. To them, the dollar bills are so much more important than any other issue that it completely drowns out their ability to even see anything else.  Republicans can commit whatever atrocities they want to commit as long as taxes are low.  That's all that matters.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, NameAlreadyInUse said:

Part of the reason I quit calling myself a Republican was because I determined this was a value important to me, and it was not important to Republicans.  I've since discovered that the conservatives in my family simply don't believe this.  For them, being conservative is more about preserving their place, and fuck everyone else. They don't care if kids are in cages, they got tax cuts.  They don't care that their party's policies negatively affected their gay son both due to just general disdain for "the gay lifestyle" and also terrible immigration policies, they got tax cuts.  They don't care if people are wholesale discriminated against because of the color of their skin, because the group that wants to encourage that gives them tax cuts.  Now to be fair, he hasn't ever said it directly to me, but I have the impression that in the case of one of my family members that's more of a feature than a bug.  He does care, because he wants white people in power, and he gets that as a bonus with his lower taxes. To them, the dollar bills are so much more important than any other issue that it completely drowns out their ability to even see anything else.  Republicans can commit whatever atrocities they want to commit as long as taxes are low.  That's all that matters.

Flipside broad generalization: Democrats just want everyone on the government dole. They perpetuate cities of squalor and hardship for minorities. Decades of poverty prove it.

Are we talking about alleged intent or results?
 

FWIW, I don’t believe either affiliation has some moral high ground.  The left just tries to claim it more often, and yes, they have their own brand of religion to force on others, it’s just marketed differently.

Edited November 10, 2020 by slorch

[wildcat09 29559]

2 minutes ago, slorch said:

Flipside broad generalization: Democrats just want everyone on the government dole. They perpetuate cities of squalor and hardship for minorities. Decades of poverty prove it.

Are we talking about alleged intent or results?
 

FWIW, I don’t believe either affiliation has some moral high ground.  The left just tries to claim it more often, and yes, they have their own brand of religion to force on others, it’s just marketed differently.

The right calls us all baby killers every single day.

[Brisketexan 106629]

38 minutes ago, slorch said:

it is with the notion that the individual can determine their own destiny, regardless of class at birth or social situation.

Which has morphed into the lie that not only are we all in this alone, any notion that we live in a society/community where our actions impact others is treated as heresy to be cast out completely.  It's insanity.  The cult of the individual that has been created isn't just insane and anti-human, it's anti-American.

Read De Tocqueville -- he captured the essence of America at its founding.  He LITERALLY wrote about what made America great and unique - and it was our ability and drive to form associations, to work together for a collective good.

Balancing individual liberties with the obvious and human truth that we live in community, and that we all depend on each other and none of us are in this world alone, is how we can thrive as a nation.

And no, not all individuals have a fair shot at "determining their own destiny."  As has been stated here eleventy billion times, some people start the race with great training, great shoes, a great diet, and a support team around them.  Others start the race malnourished, untrained, barefoot, and alone.  In that race.....who are you betting on to finish?  Come on, for fuck's sake.  Yeah, maybe one of those starving barefoot guys has the greatest human will in history, and ekes out a finish.  But the odds are WAY against him.  Just like they are WAY in favor of the guy with shoes, training, and a support team.

The American Dream starts with what is actually the first word in our charter document -- WE.  I am very successful.  I would be an egotistical narcissist liar if I said that my achievements are mine, and mine alone.  I had supportive parents.  I had great educators.  I have had good mentors.  I had a public university of the first class educate me.  I benefit from a system of laws and rules that helps me succeed and prosper.  I have benefited from simple acts of kindness.  I have gotten lucky breaks.  I have a supportive spouse.  "I" have done only a part of what it takes for me to succeed -- "WE" have done a great deal to help me succeed.  America's toxic obsession with "me" at the expense of (and outright demonization of) "we" is killing us.  Literally, it's killing us.  We are dying from secondary effects of loneliness, isolation, and broken communities.  The worship of the individual to the exclusion of anything else is the worship of a false god.

[Enchubben 5598]

32 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

The right calls us all baby killers every single day.

The left calls us all racist sexist homophobes every single day. 

[Brisketexan 106629]

3 minutes ago, Enchubben said:

The left calls us all racist sexist homophobes every single day. 

Well.....when your leadership opposes rights and marriage for same-sex couples.....the  shoe fits.  When your leadership literally includes stacks of people who call homosexuals abominations....the shoe fits.

When your leadership blows every fucking dog whistle imaginable, and calls my people "rapists and murderers," with a throw away that maybe SOME of us are good people.....the shoe  fits.

When your party leader brags about grabbing women by the pussy, attacks women as bleeding from their "wherever," and he is ADORED for it....the shoe fits.

Quit being such gutless cowards, faking being offended by being called out for what you are.  Have a fucking spine, and OWN it.  Quit lying to yourself and everyone else.  

[conVINCEd 21477]

7 minutes ago, Enchubben said:

The left calls us all racist sexist homophobes every single day. 

Your choices indicate that you are.

[conVINCEd 21477]

As an aside, my mother texted me to ask me if I know anything about Parler.  FML.

[wildcat09 29559]

Can we laugh for a minute about the fact that his response to "the right calls us baby killers" was "the left calls us racist sexist homophobes?"

Even assuming both claims are inaccurate, in what world are they equally bad?

[Enchubben 5598]

6 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Can we laugh for a minute about the fact that his response to "the right calls us baby killers" was "the left calls us racist sexist homophobes?"

Even assuming both claims are inaccurate, in what world are they equally bad?

I think you missed the point; it wasn't a comparison of false generalizations imposed on millions of people. Rather it's the rebuttal to the idea that the left doesn't claim moral high ground.

8 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

Your choices indicate that you are.

so you are baby killers then?

 

Edited November 10, 2020 by Enchubben
don't mean to turn this into an abortion thread I'm actually pro-choice :)

[wildcat09 29559]

I never said we didn't claim the moral high ground. I was rebutting Slorch's claim that we do it more often. Both sides do it all the time. We just happen to be correct when we do it.

[Brisketexan 106629]

4 minutes ago, Enchubben said:

so you are baby killers then?

No.  Most of us support policy approaches that would vastly reduce abortion. Things like strengthening our educational system, having real sex education, and making birth control readily accessible and cheap.  Want to cut abortions way back?  Then cut unwanted/unaffordable pregnancies way back.  Most of us favor that sort of thing very, very much.

But we can't have any of it, because the GOP doesn't want it, because the GOP isn't about reducing unwanted pregnancies at all.  Because the abortion issue isn't about actually reducing abortions at all.  It's a power play.  That's all it's ever been.  Read the history of the anti-abortion movement sometime, it's quite enlightening.

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11669]

26 minutes ago, Enchubben said:

The left calls us all racist sexist homophobes every single day. 

i was thinking this morning that if i voted for someone that the klan supported, i would probably have a nervous chuckle out of it, and move on.  if i then looked back and see that election after election after election my vote happens to line up with the klan for the entirety of my life, it would probably force some introspection.

[conVINCEd 21477]

16 minutes ago, Enchubben said:

I think you missed the point; it wasn't a comparison of false generalizations imposed on millions of people. Rather it's the rebuttal to the idea that the left doesn't claim moral high ground.

so you are baby killers then?

 

99% of the “left” has, without question, never killed an unborn human.  Supporting racist, sexist, homophobic behavior is more of a gray area, but the overwhelmingly majority of the evidence points to the right being just fine with it, if not encouraging it with quite a bit of enthusiasm.

[TexasEd 8248]

1 hour ago, NameAlreadyInUse said:

Part of the reason I quit calling myself a Republican was because I determined this was a value important to me, and it was not important to Republicans.  I've since discovered that the conservatives in my family simply don't believe this.  For them, being conservative is more about preserving their place, and fuck everyone else. They don't care if kids are in cages, they got tax cuts.  They don't care that their party's policies negatively affected their gay son both due to just general disdain for "the gay lifestyle" and also terrible immigration policies, they got tax cuts.  They don't care if people are wholesale discriminated against because of the color of their skin, because the group that wants to encourage that gives them tax cuts.  Now to be fair, he hasn't ever said it directly to me, but I have the impression that in the case of one of my family members that's more of a feature than a bug.  He does care, because he wants white people in power, and he gets that as a bonus with his lower taxes. To them, the dollar bills are so much more important than any other issue that it completely drowns out their ability to even see anything else.  Republicans can commit whatever atrocities they want to commit as long as taxes are low.  That's all that matters.

Except for the gay son par this is my extended family.

[JimmyJames 12271]

48 minutes ago, Enchubben said:

The left calls us all racist sexist homophobes every single day. 

Sometime the truth hurts.

Im sure you don’t believe that YOU are that way, but you support a party that is that way. Just look at its leader. 
 

Sorry if that hurts your sensibilities. 

[JimmyJames 12271]

LOL at annoying supporting “baby killing.” Give it up troll. 

Your party does support ripping young children away from their parents forever. As long as they’re brown. Hard to think of something as evil as that, except I guess all the “baby killing“ going on. Fucking idiot. 

[WhatTheBuck 28904]

Abortion never killed a baby. Take a fucking biology class you ignorant, hypocritical, so-called pro-life morons. 

[Enchubben 5598]

Just now, JimmyJames said:

LOL at annoying supporting “baby killing.” Give it up troll. 

Your party does support ripping young children away from their parents forever. As long as they’re brown. Hard to think of something as evil as that, except I guess all the “baby killing“ going on. Fucking idiot. 

"Who built the cages, Joe?" Do you think the separating of illegal immigrant children from their parents started with Donald Trump?

[Brisketexan 106629]

7 minutes ago, Enchubben said:

"Who built the cages, Joe?" Do you think the separating of illegal immigrant children from their parents started with Donald Trump?

As a stated policy goal, intended to terrorize families by inflicting trauma on their children? YES, IT DID START WITH TRUMP.  The Obama admin NEVER had a policy to separate children.  RATHER, the admin was confronted with a situation where unaccompanied minors were crossing the border, and they needed a place to hold them.  Not an enviable position, for sure.  But NEVER the result of an intentional policy championed by the admin, which WANTED TO CAUSE TRAUMA IN ORDER TO TERRORIZE PEOPLE AWAY FROM COMING HERE.  It's fucking terrorism, so yeah, that's really fucking different.

[Judge Roybeanbag 11856]

5 hours ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Having dinner with my Trumpkin in-laws tonight for the first time since the election. I think the wife and I's plan is just not to bring it up at all. Try to have a pleasant evening and act like life is normally going on. 

The entire Trumpkin movement clearly gets off when "libs cry", so we'll deny them that drama. If they want to bring it up, fine. But we'll be changing the subject pretty quickly. 

You and your wife should change your ringtones to “Who’s Crying Now”, and if they bring up politics just start speed dialing each other.

[ndawg 1242]

3 minutes ago, Enchubben said:

"Who built the cages, Joe?" Do you think the separating of illegal immigrant children from their parents started with Donald Trump?

Do you think that you are more informed about this issue than the rest of the political spectrum? Like, everybody to the left of Fox News simply hasn't considered this point you're raising?

You'll never, ever be informed until you start answering these kinds of questions on your own. This one is easily googlable.

[WhatTheBuck 28904]

My parents are (or were, in my father's case) lifelong Republicans. The first President they could vote for was Eisenhower. I can only think of one policy that has been consistently held by the GOP through every administration from Ike to Trump and that's hatred of the gays. Nixon set them on the path to being the party for white racists so they were pretty quick to adopt bigotry in general as a party platform. But at least Ike carried out Truman's policy of desegregating the military. 

Not anti-abortion, not small government, not low taxes on the rich, not fiscal "conservativism" or balanced budgets, not free trade, not honoring our treaties, not human rights and democracy, not family values. And no, you don't get to defend your homophobia as "family values" when you support a twice-divorced serial adulterer who wrote checks in the Oval Office to silence his porn star mistress and doesn't hide his attraction to his own daughter. 

[DonkeyCigars 143]

As someone who voted for Trump is a Republican and probably won't change that for the foreseeable future, I have plenty great relationships and friends and colleagues and business partners of complete opposite mind. I say all that to say, maybe my perspective could help answer the OP question:

 I think the key is what ztejas said: don't talk about politics. It's really that simple.

I don't talk about politics at work, with colleagues, with customers; I don't talk about politics at home with family, with friends or with church folk. Half of the people I cavort with probably don't even know my political stances or beliefs.

I go beyond "Don't ask; don't tell" in that even if you do ask, I might give a cursory answer or a milquetoast response, but I'm 100% not digging into it because there is literally no value in doing so. It probably also helps I don't go on social media and share things or post polarizing opinions as I find that to be tacky.

I think my liberal friends still like and respect me, but I guess I can't know that for sure. Personally, I find this leads to a nice existence with pleasurable experiences with various relationships, but I know some folks just couldn't fathom living like I do as outlined above because they love politics and it's a hobby or passion.

Edited November 10, 2020 by DonkeyCigars

[WhatTheBuck 28904]

2 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

As someone who voted for Trump is a Republican and probably won't change that for the foreseeable future, I have plenty great relationships and friends and colleagues and business partners of complete opposite mind. I say all that to say, maybe my perspective could help answer the OP question:

 I think the key is what ztejas said: don't talk about politics. It's really that simple.

I don't talk about politics at work, with colleagues, with customers; I don't talk about politics at home with family, with friends or with church folk. Half of the people I cavort with probably don't even know my political stances or beliefs.

I go beyond "Don't ask; don't tell" in that even if you do ask, I might give a cursory answer or a milquetoast response, but I'm 100% not digging into it because there is literally no value in doing so.

I think my liberal friends still like and respect me, but I guess I can't know that for sure. Personally, I find this leads to a nice existence with pleasurable experiences with various relationships, but I know some folks love politics and it's a hobby or passion. It probably also helps I don't go on social media and share things or post polarizing opinions.

No decent person voted for Trump.