How to talk to Republicans who don't like "your facts" or facts in general.

[DonkeyCigars 143]

1 minute ago, WhatTheBuck said:

No decent person voted for Trump. 

AND there is no such thing as a True Scotsman!

joking aside, I take your point and appreciate you feel that way and, true to form, I just want to acknowledge you are heard and I respect you and let's leave it at that.

Edited November 10, 2020 by DonkeyCigars

[Jiggy-Z 3506]

47 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

No.  Most of us support policy approaches that would vastly reduce abortion. Things like strengthening our educational system, having real sex education, and making birth control readily accessible and cheap.  Want to cut abortions way back?  Then cut unwanted/unaffordable pregnancies way back.  Most of us favor that sort of thing very, very much.

But we can't have any of it, because the GOP doesn't want it, because the GOP isn't about reducing unwanted pregnancies at all.  Because the abortion issue isn't about actually reducing abortions at all.  It's a power play.  That's all it's ever been.  Read the history of the anti-abortion movement sometime, it's quite enlightening.

I was raised as a hard ass catholic and remember marching at the capital for the unborn every January from Jr High -High school back in the early 80's.  I didn't go on my own as I had to go because-parents.  But I was nevertheless down with the idea of doing away with Row v. Wade.  In college me and my ex had the choice to have a kid a out of wedlock.  Even though I didn't legally have any say in the matter, I still felt good that it was a choice despite my feeling about abortion.

My thoughts have changed on abortion as a matter of law, as I see no way given our constitution how the rights of the woman could be usurped by anyone +/- a few obvious restrictions.

I also came to the conclusion that if the law were going to change it would have been done already and every conceivable obstacle to having a child would have been removed and that political positions on it were just being used as a wedge issue. 

Discarding abortion as political issue has freed me up to do the hard work (not so hard these days) of policy evaluation.

[WhatTheBuck 28904]

1 minute ago, DonkeyCigars said:

AND there is no such thing as a True Scotsman!

You think that applies. It doesn't. 

[bad_teammate 13480]

Tens of millions of decent people voted for Donald Trump, good god. The vast majority of Trump voters are good and decent people.

Guys, let's retain our sanity.

[DonkeyCigars 143]

Just now, WhatTheBuck said:

You think that applies. It doesn't. 

No I don't really, it was more of a joke based on the refrain "No such thing.." and I edited my post to clarify.

But the OP's question is how to talk to Republicans/Trump folks and I just gave a perspective. Beyond that, as you can see, I'm showing there is no real value in getting into a pit cage fight with someone if they disagree or want to say I'm not a decent person or whatever. 

[WhatTheBuck 28904]

Bullshit. 

[aggie08 21734]

15 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

No decent person voted for Trump. 

Meh. Most people don't follow politics closely enough to understand the real harm that Trump is doing. He's just the idiot figurehead on TV saying dumb things. At the end of the day, Republicans "cut taxes and believe in Christian values" and Democrats "like abortions, want to defund police, and want to take all of your money to spend on lazy unemployed people and universal healthcare." Most people, even decent ones, don't comprehend the damage that one bad man and his sycophants can do to a democracy, so they are going to, as always, vote for what they believe to be in the best interest of their families and tune out the other stuff.

I hope to fucking christ that some of those "in the middle" are paying attention for the next 2 months as Trump and co. shit all over our democracy. This goes way fucking above partisan politics, and the next time someone like Trump comes around, open your eyes.

Edited November 10, 2020 by aggie08

[DonkeyCigars 143]

1 minute ago, aggie08 said:

Meh. Most people don't follow politics closely enough to understand the real harm that Trump is doing. He's just the idiot figurehead on TV saying dumb things. At the end of the day, Republicans "cut taxes and believe in Christian values" and Democrats "like abortions, want to defund police, and want to take all of your money to spend on lazy unemployed people and universal healthcare." Most people, even decent ones, don't comprehend the damage that one bad man and his sycophants can do to a democracy, so they are going to, as always, vote for what they believe to be in the best interest of their families and tune out the other stuff.

I hope to fucking christ that some of those "in the middle" are paying attention for the next 2 months. This goes way fucking above partisan politics, and the next time someone like Trump comes around, open your eyes.

It's temporary, right? We didn't die under Obama, we didn't die under Trump, and for the love of God I hope Republicans can understand we aren't going to die under Uncle Joe/Kamala. 

This is all temporary and out of our control anyways; all you can do is vote and then do the best you can to adapt and live the life you feel called to live under the circumstances that follow.

[aggie08 21734]

1 minute ago, DonkeyCigars said:

It's temporary, right? We didn't die under Obama, we didn't die under Trump, and for the love of God I hope Republicans can understand we aren't going to die under Uncle Joe/Kamala. 

This is all temporary and out of our control anyways; all you can do is vote and then do the best you can to adapt and live the life you feel called to live under the circumstances that follow.

Yes.  The President of the United States is temporarily trying to fire all of those that oppose him--or believe in reality and logic--and find enough loyal supporters to overthrow the results of a democratic election based of outright bullshit lies.  The fact that it probably won't work (that I have to even say probably is the scary part) is irrelevant. 

[Hookah Horns 3089]

14 hours ago, CooterBrown said:

 

I’d remind them that I hope they aren’t hypocrites and accept social security and Medicare.

 

That is indeed the point I keep hammering them with. I tell them to endorse their SS checks over to me or else they're socialists. I've received no checks. 

[Biff Tannen 46061]

56 minutes ago, Enchubben said:

"Who built the cages, Joe?" Do you think the separating of illegal immigrant children from their parents started with Donald Trump?

 

46 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

As a stated policy goal, intended to terrorize families by inflicting trauma on their children? YES, IT DID START WITH TRUMP.  The Obama admin NEVER had a policy to separate children.  RATHER, the admin was confronted with a situation where unaccompanied minors were crossing the border, and they needed a place to hold them.  Not an enviable position, for sure.  But NEVER the result of an intentional policy championed by the admin, which WANTED TO CAUSE TRAUMA IN ORDER TO TERRORIZE PEOPLE AWAY FROM COMING HERE.  It's fucking terrorism, so yeah, that's really fucking different.

Gosh, we've never had this EXACT SAME DISCUSSION multiple times over the past 4 years.

[Gourmand 7778]

44 minutes ago, ndawg said:

Do you think that you are more informed about this issue than the rest of the political spectrum? Like, everybody to the left of Fox News simply hasn't considered this point you're raising?

You'll never, ever be informed until you start answering these kinds of questions on your own. This one is easily googlable.

This.

That gotcha post was only impressive to the kind of people who think Tim Pool is smart and makes great points owning the libs. 

[Biff Tannen 46061]

37 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

As someone who voted for Trump is a Republican and probably won't change that for the foreseeable future, I have plenty great relationships and friends and colleagues and business partners of complete opposite mind. I say all that to say, maybe my perspective could help answer the OP question:

 I think the key is what ztejas said: don't talk about politics. It's really that simple.

I don't talk about politics at work, with colleagues, with customers; I don't talk about politics at home with family, with friends or with church folk. Half of the people I cavort with probably don't even know my political stances or beliefs.

I go beyond "Don't ask; don't tell" in that even if you do ask, I might give a cursory answer or a milquetoast response, but I'm 100% not digging into it because there is literally no value in doing so. It probably also helps I don't go on social media and share things or post polarizing opinions as I find that to be tacky.

I think my liberal friends still like and respect me, but I guess I can't know that for sure. Personally, I find this leads to a nice existence with pleasurable experiences with various relationships, but I know some folks just couldn't fathom living like I do as outlined above because they love politics and it's a hobby or passion.

It seems like you are trying to have a rational discussion, which is rare in these parts coming from Rs, so I'll engage.

I would say that everything you said is perfectly fine when you have a "normal" Republican that we have all been used to for the past 40 years.  With Trump, you have to admit it is a WAY different scenario.  We have been forced to talk about politics because he has gone well beyond what any Republican (or Dem for that matter) has done to our institutions and the very basis of how our government works.  

[Hookah Horns 3089]

26 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Tens of millions of decent people voted for Donald Trump, good god. The vast majority of Trump voters are good and decent people.

Guys, let's retain our sanity.

Not sure if I'd go so far as saying the "vast majority" are decent, but I agree that there are a lot of good people who voted for Trump because they feared what the "radical left" would do to the country more than the damage caused by Trump. Being deluded, brainwashed, stupid or ignorant does not automatically make one an indecent person. 

[DonkeyCigars 143]

6 minutes ago, Hookah Horns said:

That is indeed the point I keep hammering them with. I tell them to endorse their SS checks over to me or else they're socialists. I've received no checks. 

Gotta get trued up first.

[Gourmand 7778]

17 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

It's temporary, right? We didn't die under Obama, we didn't die under Trump, and for the love of God I hope Republicans can understand we aren't going to die under Uncle Joe/Kamala. 

This is all temporary and out of our control anyways; all you can do is vote and then do the best you can to adapt and live the life you feel called to live under the circumstances that follow.

When "death" is the standard by which you judge our leaders and you continue to make choices by that standard, you have a problem.

[DonkeyCigars 143]

1 minute ago, Biff Tannen said:

It seems like you are trying to have a rational discussion, which is rare in these parts coming from Rs, so I'll engage.

I would say that everything you said is perfectly fine when you have a "normal" Republican that we have all been used to for the past 40 years.  With Trump, you have to admit it is a WAY different scenario.  We have been forced to talk about politics because he has gone well beyond what any Republican (or Dem for that matter) has done to our institutions and the very basis of how our government works.  

I hear you, but I think a lot of folks, myself included, just aren't interested in the maelstrom knowing that it's driven by a variety of different motives. I personally haven't had cable in 5+ years. I don't watch FoxNews. I don't listen to news radio. I don't care to have my identity be first-and-foremost a "Republican".

In that way Trump is no different than Bush was, in fact they seem very similar  in the type of villainy and outrage and hate they received from folks and how people freaked the heck out. Maybe memories fade a bit, but I recall it being pretty intense with W.

All that to say, Obama took the same intensity of heat when he was in office. He got blasted for being a black guy in a tan suit.

So will Biden.

And then so will Conservative Millennial XYZ who wins in 2028.

And so on.

[DonkeyCigars 143]

2 minutes ago, Gourmand said:

When "death" is the standard by which you judge our leaders and you continue to make choices by that standard, you have a problem.

I just meant that, in the way that you tell a kid, I would tell a Trumpkin Republican freaking out that it's okay you just sprained your ankle you aren't going to die. E.G. Quit overreacting to who wins the presidency.

And maybe that's my privilege showing and unconscious bias, but it's my reality as of press time.

Edited November 10, 2020 by DonkeyCigars

[NameAlreadyInUse 5165]

2 hours ago, slorch said:

Flipside broad generalization: Democrats just want everyone on the government dole. They perpetuate cities of squalor and hardship for minorities. Decades of poverty prove it.

Are we talking about alleged intent or results?
 

FWIW, I don’t believe either affiliation has some moral high ground.  The left just tries to claim it more often, and yes, they have their own brand of religion to force on others, it’s just marketed differently.

I didn't talk about the Democrats.  What's with the whataboutism here?  I'm not asking anyone to suddenly become a democrat.  I'm asking them to look at what they actually believe, and compare the actions of Republicans to their beliefs.  The actions, not the words.  Some people will discover that they are in the right place and others won't.  Those who discover they are in the wrong place have all sorts of choices as to where to go instead, and only one of those choices is to switch to the Democrats.  Also, I wasn't generalizing, I was giving my specific experience with specific members of my family.  

You and I have had good conversations in the past, but the knee jerking has to stop if this is going to be another one.

[Gourmand 7778]

23 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

I hear you, but I think a lot of folks, myself included, just aren't interested in the maelstrom knowing that it's driven by a variety of different motives. I personally haven't had cable in 5+ years. I don't watch FoxNews. I don't listen to news radio. I don't care to have my identity be first-and-foremost a "Republican".

In that way Trump is no different than Bush was, in fact they seem very similar  in the type of villainy and outrage and hate they received from folks and how people freaked the heck out. Maybe memories fade a bit, but I recall it being pretty intense with W.

All that to say, Obama took the same intensity of heat when he was in office. He got blasted for being a black guy in a tan suit.

So will Biden.

And then so will Conservative Millennial XYZ who wins in 2028.

And so on.

 

But this is the typical false equivalence of literally everyone on the right. Please give us one example of the hair-on-fire predictions about Obama from the birthers on the right that came to be true. Anything close to what we got with  Bush and Trump.

You voted for and still support a crazy authoritarian maniac and his sycophants in the Republican party and--at this very moment--they are taking a giant steaming dump on the Constitution by attempting to exact a coup in plain sight. All so Trump can grift his supporters for money while whipping up the GOP's base to keep them engaged through January 5th. Imagine the reaction from the Republican party if Obama lost his reelection bid and then refused to acknowledge the results and went so far as to fire his Defense Secretary and also have his Secretary of State Clinton make the same statement that Mike Pompeo made today. Cmon man. 

Those of us who opposed Trump from the earliest stages were proven correct to be very afraid for our country, and if anything were only wrong because we didn't imagine far enough in the extreme.

 

 

Edited November 10, 2020 by Gourmand

[Gourmand 7778]

Donkey Cigars, are you cool with this or "are you just not interested in the maelstrom knowing that it's driven by a variety of different motives?"

What the fuck does that even mean? 

This is SEDITION. You can't both sides/above the fray this away. 

 

[DonkeyCigars 143]

10 minutes ago, Gourmand said:

 

But this is the typical false equivalence of literally everyone on the right. Please give us one example of the hair-on-fire predictions about Obama from the birthers on the right that came to be true. Anything close to what we got with  Bush and Trump.

You voted for and still support a crazy authoritarian maniac and his sycophants in the Republican party and--at this very moment--they are taking a giant steaming dump on the Constitution by attempting to exact a coup in plain sight. All so Trump can grift his supporters for money while whipping up the GOP's base to keep them engaged through January 5th. Imagine the reaction from the Republican party if Obama lost his reelection bid and then refused to acknowledge the results and went so far as to fire his Defense Secretary and also have his Secretary of State Clinton make the same statement that Mike Pompeo made today. Cmon man. 

Those of us who opposed Trump from the earliest stages were proven correct to be very afraid for our country, and if anything were only wrong because we didn't imagine far enough in the extreme.

 

 

Look, I'm not even up to date on what coup activities you are talking about. I don't watch the news and haven't heard-- I assume he's grousing and dragging his feet because he's a turd like that, but unless he's really putting a Julius Caesar-like, I'm the emperor for life narrative or setting up the military and chess pieces that way, I also assume it's just people freaking out for nothing. Surely he will concede. Maybe not as cleanly and quickly as we all here--me included-- hope, but until then he's a loon doing some loon things on the way out the door.

Wasn't trying to falsify equivalence, apologize for that. I was just trying to show and state that oceans rise, empires fall and President's with different letters next to their name will come and go.

[aggie08 21734]

4 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Look, I'm not even up to date on what coup activities you are talking about.

Then, no offense, but shut the fuck up.

[ChuckNorrisActionJeans 2692]

6 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Look, I'm not even up to date on what coup activities you are talking about. I don't watch the news and haven't heard-- I assume he's grousing and dragging his feet because he's a turd like that, but unless he's really putting a Julius Caesar-like, I'm the emperor for life narrative or setting up the military and chess pieces that way, I also assume it's just people freaking out for nothing. Surely he will concede. Maybe not as cleanly and quickly as we all here--me included-- hope, but until then he's a loon doing some loon things on the way out the door.

Wasn't trying to falsify equivalence, apologize for that. I was just trying to show and state that oceans rise, empires fall and President's with different letters next to their name will come and go.

My god. Put the quaaludes down and take a fucking look around.

[DonkeyCigars 143]

6 minutes ago, Gourmand said:

Donkey Cigars, are you cool with this or "are you just not interested in the maelstrom knowing that it's driven by a variety of different motives?"

What the fuck does that even mean? 

This is SEDITION. You can't both sides/above the fray this away. 

 

I read the article, thanks for posting. Here is what I would say from reading this:

Two key paragraphs stick out:

The White House budget proposal has been largely a symbolic document, particularly under Trump. Both Democratic and Republican lawmakers in Congress have often ignored the administration’s policy priorities in favor of their own.

Knowing this is symbolic, it sounds like Trump is fighting symbology with symbology here. I read this as a toddler throwing a tantrum more than a Julius Caesar poised to usurp power.

Especially considering he still has a few months before having to submit power.

Is he eschewing tradition and decorum? Yes. As he's always done as a political troll. Completely on brand, folks.

Is submitting a budget and being a toddler about the election and pretending everything is fine, up until the final day of his presidency illegal or seditious or a crime? I'll defer to legal folks here but I'd guess not.

The decision to proceed with Trump’s budget for the 2022 fiscal year has rankled and surprised several career staffers given Biden’s victory, as well as the fact that the incoming Biden administration is expected to submit its budget plan to Congress early next year.

Sounds to me that if you were wise as a Republican you'd toe a very careful line between engaging in the farce as a political middle finger to Biden/Dem's and saving some face and being a professional if you want to continue working in Washington.

[wildcat09 29558]

The "decent" people who voted for Trump are no different from most nazis in Germany in the 30s. It was the "decent" little nazis that made their atrocities possible. That's the lesson we were supposed to take away. That's why the entire world said to never forget the holocaust. But now the survivors have passed on and we immediately forgot.

I won't say all of those "decent" people are irredeemable monsters. What I will say is that they need to realize what they're enabling because if they don't, pretty soon they will be irredeemable monsters.

[DonkeyCigars 143]

5 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

Then, no offense, but shut the fuck up.

None taken, and again all I offered was a perspective. If the question is "How do I talk to Republicans who are consumed by politics and up-to-date with all the news up to the hour every hour" then I'm like you guys, I don't know either. Best to just avoid.

[Gourmand 7778]

Shorter version of Donkey: I vote R and always will and the answer is don't talk about politics because I don't read the news. 

 

Cool, cool. I mean, it's not as if a functioning democracy depends upon its citizens to be informed.....

[Gourmand 7778]

 

[DonkeyCigars 143]

6 minutes ago, Gourmand said:

Shorter version of Donkey: I vote R and always will and the answer is don't talk about politics because I don't read the news. 

 

Cool, cool. I mean, it's not as if a functioning democracy depends upon its citizens to be informed.....

I would say it's more like, instead of micro-consuming news, I prefer to get a drill down at the end of a week or a month. I feel like a lot of what is wrong with politics and the people today can be attributed to the the 24/7 twitter reporting culture without a lot of longer form analysis or public intellectuals from both sides. Everything is a fire and an emergency, until the immediate next fire and emergency.

For those that love it, feel free to stress yourself out and fuel your anxiety, but again to bring this all back to the point of my posting on this thread as a response to the OP (which I thought was a noble question and effort to try and unite rather than divide), I'd rather just keep my opinions and politics to myself then squabble with friends, neighbors, family, etc. etc. In 2020 it's just not good business.

Edited November 10, 2020 by DonkeyCigars

[DigglerontheHoof 21516]

4 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

None taken, and again all I offered was a perspective. If the question is "How do I talk to Republicans who are consumed by politics and up-to-date with all the news up to the hour every hour" then I'm like you guys, I don't know either. Best to just avoid.

You're trying to come off as reasonable and polite.  You're coming off as a useful idiot, at best and a genteel monster, at worst. 

[DonkeyCigars 143]

5 minutes ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

You're trying to come off as reasonable and polite.  You're coming off as a useful idiot, at best and a genteel monster, at worst. 

I think as human beings, we all want to make sure our impact matches our intention. Not sure how I can communicate better to make sure that I do come off as polite and respectful of differing and varying opinions, but I'll take the feedback if you want to give it. I understand that sometimes, some people either aren't ready or don't want to have someone be reasonable with them.

It's an emotional topic for some and politics spans the emotional spectrum, I get it.

Edited November 10, 2020 by DonkeyCigars

[C-Man 27685]

15 minutes ago, Gourmand said:

Shorter version of Donkey: I vote R and always will and the answer is don't talk about politics because I don't read the news. 

 

Cool, cool. I mean, it's not as if a functioning democracy depends upon its citizens to be informed.....

Somebody want to tell Donkey that the Republican party has changed dramatically since he started voting straight-ticket GOP?

EDIT: And user name definitely does NOT check out.

Edited November 10, 2020 by C-Man

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

The "decent" people who voted for Trump are no different from most nazis in Germany in the 30s. It was the "decent" little nazis that made their atrocities possible. That's the lesson we were supposed to take away. That's why the entire world said to never forget the holocaust. But now the survivors have passed on and we immediately forgot.

I won't say all of those "decent" people are irredeemable monsters. What I will say is that they need to realize what they're enabling because if they don't, pretty soon they will be irredeemable monsters.

Do you put 2016 Trump voters and fuck no in 2020, in the same category?

 

Just wondering how to carry my guilt...

[wildcat09 29558]

Just now, slorch said:

Do you put 2016 Trump voters and fuck no in 2020, in the same category?

 

Just wondering how to carry my guilt...

Only if they still voted for other Republicans who ARE still enabling Trump. Otherwise, seems to me they realized what they were previously enabling and correctly decided they wanted nothing to do with that.

[Gourmand 7778]

3 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

I would say it's more like, instead of micro-consuming news, I prefer to get a drill down at the end of a week or a month. I feel like a lot of what is wrong with politics and the people today can be attributed to the the 24/7 twitter reporting culture without a lot of longer form analysis or public intellectuals from both sides. Everything is a fire and an emergency, until the immediate next fire and emergency.

For those that love it, feel free to stress yourself out and fuel your anxiety, but again to bring this all back to the point of my posting on this thread as a response to the OP (which I thought was a noble question and effort to try and unite rather than divide), I'd rather just keep my opinions and politics to myself then squabble with friends, neighbors, family, etc. etc. In 2020 it's just not good business.

 

Get your head out of your ass. Trump just lost an election resoundingly and his administration is openly refusing to acknowledge the will of the electorate and fomenting distrust in the foundational exercise of American democracy. You're okay with that? 

[DonkeyCigars 143]

4 minutes ago, Gourmand said:

 

Get your head out of your ass. Trump just lost an election resoundingly and his administration is openly refusing to acknowledge the will of the electorate and fomenting distrust in the foundational exercise of American democracy. You're okay with that? 

Is he doing anything illegal? Is he outside the lines of anything other than tradition, decorum and good taste? Because in I think all our opinions, he's never been inside those particular lines, and so I'm not confused, shocked or aggravated that he's leveraging his bully pulpit until the final whistle is blown.

It's like a defensive lineman trying to jump over the center and hit the kneeling QB when he's down by 21 points but there is 5 seconds left on the clock.

I'll join you in the outrage when he is doing this foolishness after the clock hits double zero, my friend. Until then, completely on brand for DJT.

Edited November 10, 2020 by DonkeyCigars

[Guest]

1 minute ago, wildcat09 said:

Only if they still voted for other Republicans who ARE still enabling Trump. Otherwise, seems to me they realized what they were previously enabling and correctly decided they wanted nothing to do with that.

How is that possible when Trump repeatedly doesn’t even listen to his own team?
 

We’re not throwing the baby out with the bathwater here.   Just remove Trump, and even with all of the idiocy, he WILL be gone, come January.  That doesn’t mean I want my Senator/ Representative bending over and grabbing their ankles for every Leftist on Capitol Hill in the next 2 years.

[bad_teammate 13480]

1 minute ago, DonkeyCigars said:

I'll join you in the outrage when the clock hits double zero, my friend. Until then, completely on brand for DJT.

Wouldn't calling for a popular violent uprising to support him staying in power be "on brand"? You're a frog in a pot reaching out to turn it up on yourself.

[DigglerontheHoof 21516]

2 minutes ago, slorch said:

How is that possible when Trump repeatedly doesn’t even listen to his own team?
 

We’re not throwing the baby out with the bathwater here.   Just remove Trump, and even with all of the idiocy, he WILL be gone, come January.  That doesn’t mean I want my Senator/ Representative bending over and grabbing their ankles for every Leftist on Capitol Hill in the next 2 years.

but you're okay w/ them bending over for trump

[DonkeyCigars 143]

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

Wouldn't calling for a popular violent uprising to support him staying in power be "on brand"? You're a frog in a pot reaching out to turn it up on yourself.

I am not for that, didn't know he was calling for violent uprising and rebellion, and if he has done that then I'll go on surly record as denouncing that behavior 100%. I'm with you brother!

[WhatTheBuck 28904]

1 hour ago, aggie08 said:

Meh. Most people don't follow politics closely enough to understand the real harm that Trump is doing. He's just the idiot figurehead on TV saying dumb things. At the end of the day, Republicans "cut taxes and believe in Christian values" and Democrats "like abortions, want to defund police, and want to take all of your money to spend on lazy unemployed people and universal healthcare." Most people, even decent ones, don't comprehend the damage that one bad man and his sycophants can do to a democracy, so they are going to, as always, vote for what they believe to be in the best interest of their families and tune out the other stuff.

I hope to fucking christ that some of those "in the middle" are paying attention for the next 2 months as Trump and co. shit all over our democracy. This goes way fucking above partisan politics, and the next time someone like Trump comes around, open your eyes.

I disagree. That's an excuse for 2016, not for 2020. Fool you once, shame on Trump. Fool you twice, shame on you. 

Maybe there's someone somewhere who doesn't have a tv or Internet access or a phone, who doesn't read the newspaper or magazines or books, and just shows up at the polls and votes for candidates at random. Then a decent person might have accidentally voted for Trump. 

Everyone else knowingly voted for a racist authoritarian asshole and they knew it when they did it. The 'I was too stupid to know what I was doing' excuse doesn't fly. 

[staboner 5067]

26 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

The "decent" people who voted for Trump are no different from most nazis in Germany in the 30s. It was the "decent" little nazis that made their atrocities possible. That's the lesson we were supposed to take away. That's why the entire world said to never forget the holocaust. But now the survivors have passed on and we immediately forgot.

I won't say all of those "decent" people are irredeemable monsters. What I will say is that they need to realize what they're enabling because if they don't, pretty soon they will be irredeemable monsters.

good post my man. I think thats a bit of "we bitch now" so we don't have to panic later. 

Words matter. They matter across the spectrum of society - all ages, all religions, all political persuasions. they matter. 

the gentle testing of the limits from the Trumps is unacceptable. 

(as is the slow bleed of executive orders, which now will become even more out of control when Biden gets in. sadly though, we are not nearly as politically engaged as we need to be - going back some 20 years - to stop that trend from starting. its really one in the same when you think about it)

[staboner 5067]

3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Which has morphed into the lie that not only are we all in this alone, any notion that we live in a society/community where our actions impact others is treated as heresy to be cast out completely.  It's insanity.  The cult of the individual that has been created isn't just insane and anti-human, it's anti-American.

Read De Tocqueville -- he captured the essence of America at its founding.  He LITERALLY wrote about what made America great and unique - and it was our ability and drive to form associations, to work together for a collective good.

Balancing individual liberties with the obvious and human truth that we live in community, and that we all depend on each other and none of us are in this world alone, is how we can thrive as a nation.

And no, not all individuals have a fair shot at "determining their own destiny."  As has been stated here eleventy billion times, some people start the race with great training, great shoes, a great diet, and a support team around them.  Others start the race malnourished, untrained, barefoot, and alone.  In that race.....who are you betting on to finish?  Come on, for fuck's sake.  Yeah, maybe one of those starving barefoot guys has the greatest human will in history, and ekes out a finish.  But the odds are WAY against him.  Just like they are WAY in favor of the guy with shoes, training, and a support team.

The American Dream starts with what is actually the first word in our charter document -- WE.  I am very successful.  I would be an egotistical narcissist liar if I said that my achievements are mine, and mine alone.  I had supportive parents.  I had great educators.  I have had good mentors.  I had a public university of the first class educate me.  I benefit from a system of laws and rules that helps me succeed and prosper.  I have benefited from simple acts of kindness.  I have gotten lucky breaks.  I have a supportive spouse.  "I" have done only a part of what it takes for me to succeed -- "WE" have done a great deal to help me succeed.  America's toxic obsession with "me" at the expense of (and outright demonization of) "we" is killing us.  Literally, it's killing us.  We are dying from secondary effects of loneliness, isolation, and broken communities.  The worship of the individual to the exclusion of anything else is the worship of a false god.

it is the biggest disease on display. the pandemic showed the world this disease of rampant individuality again and again with every Karen blowup and every virus count. 

but hey its all natural. grow up with the world's greatest economic engine ever and this is what you get. i don't view it as unnatural at all. just is, is. 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

but you're okay w/ them bending over for trump

No, the point is that Trump will be long gone, and both of our Senators predated Trump. My Rep did too.

[horn4life 3829]

I agree that a lot of good and decent people THAT ARE HORRIFICALLY FACTUALLY MISINFORMED vote for Trump.

[Serak The Preparer 3482]

2 hours ago, Enchubben said:

"Who built the cages, Joe?" Do you think the separating of illegal immigrant children from their parents started with Donald Trump?

Yes. It sounds like you don't, probably because you are misinformed. Let me ask you, do you think the separating of illegal immigrant children from their parents started with Donald Trump?

[bad_teammate 13480]

32 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

I am not for that, didn't know he was calling for violent uprising and rebellion, and if he has done that then I'll go on surly record as denouncing that behavior 100%. I'm with you brother!

I know you're not for that. And I'm not saying he's doing that now.

My poorly-phrase question (my fault, apologies) merely asks this: If Trump eventually did call for rebellion on his behalf, would you consider that on or off brand?

I wouldn't see it as off-brand.

[Biff Tannen 46061]

39 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

I am not for that, didn't know he was calling for violent uprising and rebellion, and if he has done that then I'll go on surly record as denouncing that behavior 100%. I'm with you brother!

He's been doing this for quite a while now.

[DonkeyCigars 143]

22 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

I know you're not for that. And I'm not saying he's doing that now.

My poorly-phrase question (my fault, apologies) merely asks this: If Trump eventually did call for rebellion on his behalf, would you consider that on or off brand?

I wouldn't see it as off-brand.

I would see it as off brand. Being a pest up until the very end and even wink-wink-nod-nod to some of the more loony toons (e.g. quanon and parlor and etc.) I could see, but outright calling for a rebellion, no.

It's like in business, he finds loopholes and abuses lawyers to do things around the farthest edges of the law, but he doesn't outright rob the bank. That's beneath a Wharton fella raised in Manhattan.

I think he might dance around the topic (e.g. Standback and standby) but he doesn't have the balls or the convictions to call for an outright rebellion, which is also why I was shocked when I thought he did/you said he did-- I'm not even sure he has the desire and wants that smoke, but narcissism knows no bounds from what I'm told.