How to talk to Republicans who don't like "your facts" or facts in general.

[bad_teammate 13132]

Well he's never had stakes like this. I don't know if he knows how to back down/back away.

[C-Man 27057]

39 minutes ago, horn4life said:

I agree that a lot of good and decent people THAT ARE HORRIFICALLY FACTUALLY MISINFORMED vote for Trump.

Agreed. My MIL and her sister are these people. This is what happens when the only "news" you consume comes from Rush Limbaugh, Tucker Carlson and Sean Hannity.

It's literally poison.

[DonkeyCigars 144]

Just now, bad_teammate said:

Well he's never had stakes like this. I don't know if he knows how to back down/back away.

Which speaks to the narcissism, or at the very least a massive ego issue, where you can't back down/back away because of how it would look. But this is DJT we are talking about, not Wyatt Earp. DJT is a weasel. He will back down at the 11th hour and find a way to spin it as a win anyhow and then spend the next 4 years throwing shots at Biden and every misstep or mistake or bad thing that happens in the economy or world (and bad things happen all the time so it's a guarantee there will be fodder for that cannon).

That is what I think is on brand for the guy I voted for, which I know sounds ridiculous, but that's where we are in this conversation and society.

Someone upthread said I sounded like a useful idiot. Maybe I am, I don't know, I'll leave y'all to judge that. But I think DJT is the useful idiot and he delivered the Supreme Court Justices, he's done his job, now out with him. 

[WhatTheBuck 28713]

47 minutes ago, horn4life said:

I agree that a lot of good and decent people THAT ARE HORRIFICALLY FACTUALLY MISINFORMED vote for Trump.

Willful ignorance isn't an excuse. 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

4 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

The American Dream starts with what is actually the first word in our charter document -- WE.  I am very successful.  I would be an egotistical narcissist liar if I said that my achievements are mine, and mine alone.  I had supportive parents.  I had great educators.  I have had good mentors.  I had a public university of the first class educate me.  I benefit from a system of laws and rules that helps me succeed and prosper.  I have benefited from simple acts of kindness.  I have gotten lucky breaks.  I have a supportive spouse.  "I" have done only a part of what it takes for me to succeed -- "WE" have done a great deal to help me succeed.  America's toxic obsession with "me" at the expense of (and outright demonization of) "we" is killing us.  Literally, it's killing us.  We are dying from secondary effects of loneliness, isolation, and broken communities.  The worship of the individual to the exclusion of anything else is the worship of a false god.

I'm about 50 and keep in contact with people that I attended UT around 1990. I roll my eyes when these peers start on "liberals are socialists" or "young people need to figure out to make it themselves, I did."  Son of a bitch - you attended UT for tuition of less than $1K per semester because it was subsidized by the Texas govt/taxpayers. And don't forget the fact that the state provided more per capita high quality colleges & student spots 30 years ago so that UT was relatively easy to get into.

[Biff Tannen 45497]

6 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I'm about 50 and keep in contact with people that I attended UT around 1990. I roll my eyes when these peers start on "liberals are socialists" or "young people need to figure out to make it themselves, I did."  Son of a bitch - you attended UT for tuition of less than $1K per semester because it was subsidized by the Texas govt/taxpayers. And don't forget the fact that the state provided more per capita high quality colleges & student spots 30 years ago so that UT was relatively easy to get into.

Had this same conversation with my dad the morning after the election.  He went to Tech in the late 60s/early 70s and tuition was like $300/semester.  Luckily he has come around to realize that in no way is the world at all the way it was back then.  Unfortunately, seems like he may be in the minority of Boomers that gets that.

[Satchel 6908]

2 hours ago, Hookah Horns said:

Not sure if I'd go so far as saying the "vast majority" are decent, but I agree that there are a lot of good people who voted for Trump because they feared what the "radical left" would do to the country more than the damage caused by Trump. Being deluded, brainwashed, stupid or ignorant does not automatically make one an indecent person. 

Then there is an equally large contingent who have learned that Trump has appointed a quarter of the federal judiciary. That all of his appellate appointees are white does not give them pause - it gives them comfort.

[Mole 4320]

3 hours ago, DonkeyCigars said:

It's temporary, right? We didn't die under Obama, we didn't die under Trump, and for the love of God I hope Republicans can understand we aren't going to die under Uncle Joe/Kamala. 

This is all temporary and out of our control anyways; all you can do is vote and then do the best you can to adapt and live the life you feel called to live under the circumstances that follow.

Temporary is a relative term. When is the heat death of the universe? Does his movement accept the loss? When he claims victory (repeatedly) and fraud (repeatedly), does that increase or decrease the odds of violence? Does that contribute to a Texas teen planning the assassination of Biden on social media? Trump’s claims are much more inflammatory than simply trying to clear up any irregularities,  calling for recounts, and not conceding. He’s creating a dangerous situation. He’s giving fuel to the crazies, who appear to be replicating at a rapid rate.
 

And “we didn’t die....” How many 10s of thousands have died this year because Trump politicized basic medical recommendations — not even his policy decisions — just constantly undermining sound medical advice? How many more will die this winter for the same reason? In other words, had he simply led by wearing a mask/social distancing and telling America to do the same (same policy of doing nothing, bullying the states, grifting off the PPE), who would be alive today? At a minimum, a Stanford study suggests that he killed 700 of his followers with his super spreader rallies. So yeah, people died because of him — just by his words and example. More will in the coming months.

Edited November 10, 2020 by Mole

[BradInATX 9208]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

Well he's never had stakes like this. I don't know if he knows how to back down/back away.

Of course he doesn't. He only has one tool in his conflict-resolution tool belt, and that's escalation. Even if he knows in his stupid fat brain that he has lost and won't be president, he has no choice but to escalate and sow chaos. Scorpion and the frog and all that. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

46 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I'm about 50 and keep in contact with people that I attended UT around 1990. I roll my eyes when these peers start on "liberals are socialists" or "young people need to figure out to make it themselves, I did."  Son of a bitch - you attended UT for tuition of less than $1K per semester because it was subsidized by the Texas govt/taxpayers. And don't forget the fact that the state provided more per capita high quality colleges & student spots 30 years ago so that UT was relatively easy to get into.

The minute Joe Texas wakes up and turns on the lights, he's benefited from socialism. The minute he backs his car out of the driveway and travels to work, he's benefited from socialism. As he stops to watch the school bus pick up his children, he's watching socialism. And on and on. The food that he ate for breakfast is safe because we, the people stepped in and regulated capitalism so that Upton Sinclair's reality became a memory of the past. And on and on. I used to trot that out but with explanations whenever folks threw the socialism line out. The Surly member that got angry and said people who use the term when referring to Biden should have to sit down and write a paragraph defining it is a gotdamn hero in my book. It made my conversation way simpler.

The taxpayers of yesterday paid into the universities in the hopes that the investment would yield a better future: better brains, better wages, better lives, and that those citizens would in turn pay taxes so that others would experience the benefit of them in turn. One could argue that legacy admits (which some argue for in the public unis but I don't believe they have) are not necessarily as good a yield as sending and supporting more first generation students.

 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

10 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

The minute Joe Texas wakes up and turns on the lights, he's benefited from socialism. The minute he backs his car out of the driveway and travels to work, he's benefited from socialism. As he stops to watch the school bus pick up his children, he's watching socialism. And on and on. The food that he ate for breakfast is safe because we, the people stepped in and regulated capitalism so that Upton Sinclair's reality became a memory of the past. And on and on. I used to trot that out but with explanations whenever folks threw the socialism line out. The Surly member that got angry and said people who use the term when referring to Biden should have to sit down and write a paragraph defining it is a gotdamn hero in my book. It made my conversation way simpler.

The taxpayers of yesterday paid into the universities in the hopes that the investment would yield a better future: better brains, better wages, better lives, and that those citizens would in turn pay taxes so that others would experience the benefit of them in turn. One could argue that legacy admits (which some argue for in the public unis but I don't believe they have) are not necessarily as good a yield as sending and supporting more first generation students.

 

Personally I would be all about raising sales tax to make college free, up to a certain point. Tommy Boy giving his bachelors degree in 7 years might be a stretch. But seriously create more world class universities that are practically free for Texas high school grads, and you just guaranteed another 50 years of Texas leading the US. Make it cheap for non-Texas grads to attract the best talent across the nation and world. These investment pay for themselves. Of course, that is also how you turn Texas blue so maybe Abbott doesn't want to attract too many Apples or Facebook workers.

but I'm on a tangent so I will shut up.

[Nivek 16860]

1 hour ago, wildcat09 said:

I can't speak to your father, but I think it is very common for conservatives to lie to themselves and others about what they actually value. A big part of the propaganda we all get when we're children about what makes America great are liberal ideals about freedom and equality. Those ideals have to be sold even to children of conservatives, because how many children are going to believe the fact that Jeff Bezos is the richest man in the history of the world because he denies his employees even bathroom breaks is what makes America great?

However, what conservatives really believe is there is a proper and natural social order and that any attempt to modify that is wrong. They embrace the lies and the misinformation because it gives them a way to rationalize ignoring the liberal ideals that they've been taught but don't really believe in, in much the same way they embrace their opposition to abortion as a way to rationalize their abandonment of everything Christ teaches in the Bible.

This doesn't apply to every conservative because people adopt political beliefs for a variety of reasons, but I think it pretty clearly applies to conservatism writ large (and thus, most conservatives). 

No.  I mean simple things like respecting people of different faith,  belief, lifestyle, race, respecting people with disabilities, and treating people from different economic backgrounds with respect.   I really didn't realize there were racist and discriminatory people when I was little, and when I came across them, they were rare and stood out.  This man valued science, math,  and education. 

When he embraced religion things changed, he became more Republican and less conservative.  He started to prescribe to their political dogma, he devalued education to a degree (har-har), he went from thinking highly about education to luke warm, and ultimately it became a liberal indoctrination machine to him.   CNN which used to run in our house when we were high school aged, became shit to him.  Talk radio which was focused on winners (anyone remember the Winners News Network?; for winners only) , real estate, motivational speakers, became political hacks like Rush.   He went full right, and moral flexibility and discrimination creeped into his life.    It became OK to harm children because of the actions of parents.   He is a capitalist that embraces socialism and protectionism (he is anti-work visa's now because of competition).  He doesn't see irony anymore.   

My father was brainwashed.  He was changed from a kindly, phlegmatic man into a man corrupted by lies and motivated by fear.  He used to tell me about two types of people, those with fear of loss and those with hope to gain.   He self-ascribed to the latter but really he is now fully in the former.   That is what right-wing propaganda did to my father.   I feel like Luke Skywalker (me love you long time?).

[Gil Bang 25898]

 

[DonkeyCigars 144]

2 hours ago, Mole said:

Temporary is a relative term. When is the heat death of the universe? Does his movement accept the loss? When he claims victory (repeatedly) and fraud (repeatedly), does that increase or decrease the odds of violence? Does that contribute to a Texas teen planning the assassination of Biden on social media? Trump’s claims are much more inflammatory than simply trying to clear up any irregularities,  calling for recounts, and not conceding. He’s creating a dangerous situation. He’s giving fuel to the crazies, who appear to be replicating at a rapid rate.
 

And “we didn’t die....” How many 10s of thousands have died this year because Trump politicized basic medical recommendations — not even his policy decisions — just constantly undermining sound medical advice? How many more will die this winter for the same reason? In other words, had he simply led by wearing a mask/social distancing and telling America to do the same (same policy of doing nothing, bullying the states, grifting off the PPE), who would be alive today? At a minimum, a Stanford study suggests that he killed 700 of his followers with his super spreader rallies. So yeah, people died because of him — just by his words and example. More will in the coming months.

Temporary is a relative term, for sure. I also think you assign too much credit (and responsibility/conjecture) to a butterfly effect in your first paragraph-- especially when you consider the operations are within the bounds of legality. 

To your second point, I guess it's fair, but I don't share the belief and definitely not the sentiment. But it is fair that ultimately you can put the deaths at the feet of the leader after accounting for what he did and didn't do, on a balance. I'm not so sure what the delta would be with an alternative leader (presumably, Hillary?). I would guess that she would have modeled mask hygiene and communicated for her base to to be responsible, but I also don't believe the basket of deplorables would have listened and you would have had a same net result. All conjecture of course, mine and yours, which really leads me to the tenet of my thinking:

The politicians we elect to President are temporary and ever-changing. To get worked up about it seems pointless and short-sighted. Capitalist society is set up for this to be this way. The guys and gals occupying the oval office every 4-8 years aren't much more (with the anomaly being DJT) than a finely-degreed, decently polished professional figurehead representing the popular sentiment of roughly 45-55% of Americans depending on the year.

And the American people are growing more divided by the day due to the inertia of explosive population growth, a finite/scarce resources economic architecture, and ideas, beliefs, cultures and values that can be shared at lightspeed, across geographies, and can increasingly live without much oxygen in closed-loop systems of echo chambers and silos due to rapid advancements in technology.

So, hey. Trump lost. I gave it 30 seconds of regret before moving on with my life, as I would counsel for all reasonable and decent folks who voted for Trump. Don't worry about things out of your control.

Also, I should edit to add...Trump lost to Biden! I mean, you can't really ask for much more. That's barely a loss. I feel like CK Louis in that skit, "You can't even hurt my feelings!"

Edited November 11, 2020 by DonkeyCigars

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

Every time I click on this thread and listen (mostly sadly) to Surly members talking about friends and family that have changed, or don't seem to grasp the harm that has been done or is yet to come, I think of this video from Russia. Makes me wonder if the US is now so propagandized that millions of people would kiss the portrait if it were Trump. Video is both humorous and not at all humorous if you stop to think about it.

 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

 

The American Dream starts with what is actually the first word in our charter document -- WE.  I am very successful.  I would be an egotistical narcissist liar if I said that my achievements are mine, and mine alone.  I had supportive parents.  I had great educators.  I have had good mentors.  I had a public university of the first class educate me.  I benefit from a system of laws and rules that helps me succeed and prosper.  I have benefited from simple acts of kindness.  I have gotten lucky breaks.  I have a supportive spouse.  "I" have done only a part of what it takes for me to succeed -- "WE" have done a great deal to help me succeed.  America's toxic obsession with "me" at the expense of (and outright demonization of) "we" is killing us.  Literally, it's killing us.  We are dying from secondary effects of loneliness, isolation, and broken communities.  The worship of the individual to the exclusion of anything else is the worship of a false god.

Meh.  Always fucking towing around that guilt, bro.

The same system exists for way the fuck more people than you.   You put in the work.  You made the tough decisions.  You made things happen that other people might have been able to... but didn't.  You showed up...to work, as a dad, as a husband.  These are the decisions and actions that give us personal worth.

There's not a gotdamn thing wrong with owning your results.  It's part of being human.  Of course you had the other influences, so did others.  Why aren't their results the same?   It's a rhetorical question, because you don't need to serve up another helping of your hatred for man.  Sitting here wishing everyone could have what you have when they aren't willing to put in the investment is just foolish...and impossible.  Those who choose to fuck off, harm others, or willing be shitstains own their results too.  I don't pity them...  I shouldn't have to unwillingly support their asses either.

[UpperWestside 6136]

3 hours ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Someone upthread said I sounded like a useful idiot. Maybe I am, I don't know, I'll leave y'all to judge that. But I think DJT is the useful idiot and he delivered the Supreme Court Justices, he's done his job, now out with him. 

I won’t call you that, but you are useful to his administration. Your mindset with the judge comment is one that is not helpful to the country as a whole. It is strikingly selfish in tone. I am not certain you care about how that comes across though. Feel free to correct me if you would like to. 

[UpperWestside 6136]

5 minutes ago, slorch said:

Meh.  Always fucking towing around that guilt, bro.

The same system exists for way the fuck more people than you.   You put in the work.  You made the tough decisions.  You made things happen that other people might have been able to... but didn't.  You showed up...to work, as a dad, as a husband.  These are the decisions and actions that give us personal worth.

There's not a gotdamn thing wrong with owning your results.  It's part of being human.  Of course you had the other influences, so did others.  Why aren't their results the same?   It's a rhetorical question, because you don't need to serve up another helping of your hatred for man.  Sitting here wishing everyone could have what you have when they aren't willing to put in the investment is just foolish...and impossible.  Those who choose to fuck off, harm others, or willing be shitstains own their results too.  I don't pity them...  I shouldn't have to unwillingly support their asses either.

The Mack Brown philosophy on life everyone! I got mine so who cares about helping those who need it! 

[atomheartbevo 89449]

11 hours ago, Nivek said:

I disagree with Wildcat to a degree.  My father instilled with me a set of values he now violates.  Not because he changed, but the propaganda machine warped his understanding of reality.   He thinks the rich are suffering, Christians are being assaulted, and babies are being slaughtered, George Soros!, and Republicans are being persecuted/obstructed by the Libs.   

1234.  My father always pushed the "vote for your morals", and he gets pissed if I bring up Trump's serial adultery, multiple wives, etc.

He is a huge proponent of term limits, and thinks we should be voting more politicians out of office, but he refuses to vote against the Rs on his ballot, no matter how long they've been in office.

And so on.  *sigh*

We were supposed to be the ones brainwashed by Dungeons and Dragons, MTV, Heavy Metal, etc.

But it's fucking Fox News that did a far better job of brainwashing.

[DonkeyCigars 144]

6 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

I won’t call you that, but you are useful to his administration. Your mindset with the judge comment is one that is not helpful to the country as a whole. It is strikingly selfish in tone. I am not certain you care about how that comes across though. Feel free to correct me if you would like to. 

If not subscribing to the cult of Trump and worshipping him and thinking he can do no wrong, and instead will say "your usefulness is up, now away with you and I didn't really like you anyways but you were one of the two figureheads remaining from the process we use to choose a champion for a set of ideas/goals/values for American people", then sure.

Edited November 11, 2020 by DonkeyCigars

[UpperWestside 6136]

8 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Which has morphed into the lie that not only are we all in this alone, any notion that we live in a society/community where our actions impact others is treated as heresy to be cast out completely.  It's insanity.  The cult of the individual that has been created isn't just insane and anti-human, it's anti-American.

Read De Tocqueville -- he captured the essence of America at its founding.  He LITERALLY wrote about what made America great and unique - and it was our ability and drive to form associations, to work together for a collective good.

Balancing individual liberties with the obvious and human truth that we live in community, and that we all depend on each other and none of us are in this world alone, is how we can thrive as a nation.

And no, not all individuals have a fair shot at "determining their own destiny."  As has been stated here eleventy billion times, some people start the race with great training, great shoes, a great diet, and a support team around them.  Others start the race malnourished, untrained, barefoot, and alone.  In that race.....who are you betting on to finish?  Come on, for fuck's sake.  Yeah, maybe one of those starving barefoot guys has the greatest human will in history, and ekes out a finish.  But the odds are WAY against him.  Just like they are WAY in favor of the guy with shoes, training, and a support team.

The American Dream starts with what is actually the first word in our charter document -- WE.  I am very successful.  I would be an egotistical narcissist liar if I said that my achievements are mine, and mine alone.  I had supportive parents.  I had great educators.  I have had good mentors.  I had a public university of the first class educate me.  I benefit from a system of laws and rules that helps me succeed and prosper.  I have benefited from simple acts of kindness.  I have gotten lucky breaks.  I have a supportive spouse.  "I" have done only a part of what it takes for me to succeed -- "WE" have done a great deal to help me succeed.  America's toxic obsession with "me" at the expense of (and outright demonization of) "we" is killing us.  Literally, it's killing us.  We are dying from secondary effects of loneliness, isolation, and broken communities.  The worship of the individual to the exclusion of anything else is the worship of a false god.

This is very well explained. Our national obsession with ourselves above the collective is because millions upon millions of us, Dotard and Biden voters alike, have a toxic shame within us that leads us into making the decisions that have been made as a collective. We solve that problem and then we are making some headway into being who we proclaim to be.

[UpperWestside 6136]

3 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

If not subscribing to the cult of Trump and worshipping him and thinking he can do no wrong, and instead will say "your usefulness is up, now away with you and I didn't really like you anyways but you were one of the two figureheads remaining from the process we use to choose a champion for a set of ideas/goals/values for American people", then sure.

So you are okay with the judge situation because personally that person aligns with your beliefs. Is that correct?

[atomheartbevo 89449]

6 hours ago, DonkeyCigars said:

AND there is no such thing as a True Scotsman!

17 hours ago, Jhawkmvp said:

It is also in the Evangelical's play book. That was one of the big reason's I left the Republican party. Once I saw how in bed the Republicans had become with the Evangelicals I was gone. They don't want it taught either because it makes it harder for them to peddle their bullshit. And the persecution complex comes from their play book too. Their prove it is not true when they are asserting their unsubstantiated bullshit also comes from apologetics. That is why religion and politics are a dangerous mix. Politics should be about compromise. Religion is all about having faith you right no matter what reality says. When religion infects politics there is no room for compromise.

I basically bailed on the GOP after Iraq.  There were other issues, and having been a campaign volunteer for George W, both gubernatorial, and his 2000 run, I was getting pretty soured on the people that I was around during those times.  People that were pushing religion, morals, etc., publicly, but then you are around them in private, and it's a huge fucking joke to them, and they are cheating on their wives, doing all kinds of crazy shit, etc.

Too much hypocrisy, and the crazy thing is, while I can't really divorce Iraq from this situation - it's a fucking horrible thing that Bush can never atone for, and one that Trump has never come close to approaching internationally, I keep feeling like 2020's GOP makes the GOP of the 1990s (even with fucking Newt Gingrich) and the early 2000s look absolutely sane and benevolent, and makes them look almost like saints.

[atomheartbevo 89449]

On a side note, I've seen some people in my wife's Sunday school class pushing the angle that "we need more religion in school", and that somehow Trump was going to make that happen, but the liberals weren't.

I've pointed out that Biden is Catholic, that Catholics are the largest religious group in Texas, and that if they want religion, they are going to get the Catholic version, and that actually shuts them up.

[Brisketexan 104628]

19 minutes ago, slorch said:

Sitting here wishing everyone could have what you have when they aren't willing to put in the investment is just foolish...and impossible.  Those who choose to fuck off, harm others, or willing be shitstains own their results too.  I don't pity them...  I shouldn't have to unwillingly support their asses either.

All of which presumes that anyone less well-off than you "chose to fuck off, harm others, or be shitstains."  Fucking NO.  FUCK YOU.  I know way too many people who are plenty good, but have been and remain behind the 8-ball.

And they should get our help not because I feel any guilt for where I am or what I am blessed with.  My circumstances are what they are -- a blend of my hard work, the kindness and help of others, and luck (much of it good, some bad).  No, we shouldn't help others and be in community because of "guilt" -- we should do so because it is a perfect intersection of being self-interested (a high-functioning society benefits ALL of us) and being decent human beings, doing what we are called to do: help each other.

I give a lot to people.  Time.  Money.  Effort.  Connection.  Mentorship.  Referrals.  I don't expect anything in return.  And the hell of it is, I don't think that makes me an especially good person.  I've just found that if enough of us put good out there, and help our community grow stronger, we all benefit.  Here's just one simple thing -- I send cases to a lot of attorneys who will never, ever be able to return the favor (the kind of clients I work for won't ever call them looking for an attorney).  I do it because 1) I want to see clients get good legal help, and 2) I want my fellow members of the bar to have good and thriving businesses.  We ALL benefit when the family down the street gets help with dad's will -- the family benefits, the lawyer who earned a fee benefits, and the rest of us benefit because that family is now taken care of if something happens to dad.

And here's something you have wrong.  My personal worth isn't based on the choices I've made, or the job I've done.  So much of what I am is a result of things beyond my control, and I am grateful for that, and understand that I fit into a larger world.  But as for how I measure my personal worth?  It really is one thing.  It's one thing that keeps me up at night.  It's something that occasionally causes me to feel deep fear.  It's the single question I would ask myself the moment before I pass from this world: did I do enough for others?

That's it.  It's the whole goddamned thing.  If I was put in this world, and I took more than I gave, it would be the greatest tragedy I could imagine.  I am not just "me" -- I am a child of God, living here among my fellow children of God, which means that each person here is my brother or sister.  I am part of a long line of people who -- just in the past few centuries -- risked their lives and futures to come to the New World.  Some succeeded.  Some failed.  Some were good.  Some were not so good.  But I am a product of that long line of humanity.  I am a single, finite length of a constant thread, and that thread has been woven in with countless others, and still is.  So I am not just that length of thread; I am part of a timeless tapestry.  I am not alone.  I am part of a great human family.  That is an amazing thing.  And I love my family.  I have to live my life as a member of that family.  We all do.  We are killing ourselves as we try to do otherwise.

Edited November 11, 2020 by Brisketexan

[atomheartbevo 89449]

For those of you with family members upset about the election, I highly recommend that you tell them that Pink Floyd's The Wall predicted 2020's election and Trump in general, and that they should watch the entire thing, to fully understand Trump better.

[Nivek 16860]

2 hours ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

The minute Joe Texas wakes up and turns on the lights, he's benefited from socialism. The minute he backs his car out of the driveway and travels to work, he's benefited from socialism. As he stops to watch the school bus pick up his children, he's watching socialism. And on and on. The food that he ate for breakfast is safe because we, the people stepped in and regulated capitalism so that Upton Sinclair's reality became a memory of the past. And on and on. I used to trot that out but with explanations whenever folks threw the socialism line out. The Surly member that got angry and said people who use the term when referring to Biden should have to sit down and write a paragraph defining it is a gotdamn hero in my book. It made my conversation way simpler.

The taxpayers of yesterday paid into the universities in the hopes that the investment would yield a better future: better brains, better wages, better lives, and that those citizens would in turn pay taxes so that others would experience the benefit of them in turn. One could argue that legacy admits (which some argue for in the public unis but I don't believe they have) are not necessarily as good a yield as sending and supporting more first generation students.

 

Basically this is the problem.  We don't explain it is in their self-interest to go Democratic.  The republican strategy of old enriched the rich, and made our food mystery meat, and poisoned our waters and air.    Regulations are good, they provide safe working environments, safe food, and safe medicine, and licensed professionals are actual qualified.    Upton Sinclair found out we were motivated with our bellies, so lets rebrand that way.

[Nivek 16860]

20 minutes ago, slorch said:

Meh.  Always fucking towing around that guilt, bro.

The same system exists for way the fuck more people than you.   You put in the work.  You made the tough decisions.  You made things happen that other people might have been able to... but didn't.  You showed up...to work, as a dad, as a husband.  These are the decisions and actions that give us personal worth.

There's not a gotdamn thing wrong with owning your results.  It's part of being human.  Of course you had the other influences, so did others.  Why aren't their results the same?   It's a rhetorical question, because you don't need to serve up another helping of your hatred for man.  Sitting here wishing everyone could have what you have when they aren't willing to put in the investment is just foolish...and impossible.  Those who choose to fuck off, harm others, or willing be shitstains own their results too.  I don't pity them...  I shouldn't have to unwillingly support their asses either.

you call it guilt, I call it humility.   

[Judge Roybeanbag 11810]

3 hours ago, DonkeyCigars said:

 

Someone upthread said I sounded like a useful idiot. Maybe I am, I don't know, I'll leave y'all to judge that. But I think DJT is the useful idiot and he delivered the Supreme Court Justices, he's done his job, now out with him. 

Yes, you are a useful idiot if you vote based on that one issue.  They keep dangling that abortion carrot in front of you and you keep pulling the wagon.  They will never give you that carrot, it’s the only power they have.  

[Mole 4320]

9 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

To your second point, I guess it's fair, but I don't share the belief and definitely not the sentiment. But it is fair that ultimately you can put the deaths at the feet of the leader after accounting for what he did and didn't do, on a balance. I'm not so sure what the delta would be with an alternative leader (presumably, Hillary?). I would guess that she would have modeled mask hygiene and communicated for her base to to be responsible, but I also don't believe the basket of deplorables would have listened and you would have had a same net result. All conjecture of course, mine and yours, which really leads me to the tenet of my thinking:

 

The Hilary comparison is a tacit admission of the outgoing president’s failure of leadership. The standard isn’t Hilary trying to convince the opposition party to not kill themselves and each other; the standard is a potted fern. Had the president simply modeled proper behavior, his followers would have mostly followed and the current situation would be far better. Had he done nothing at all we would all be better off. The potted fern as president would have saved lives. The presidency is a leadership role. 

His failure to mode good behavior, and even actively working against really basic measures, quite obviously led to numerous deaths. Writing that off as conjecture isn’t intellectually honest. At a minimum, his rallies killed his followers and at least one colleague. 
 

So yeah, it’s life and death.

[Brisketexan 104628]

3 minutes ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

Yes, you are a useful idiot if you vote based on that one issue.  They keep dangling that abortion carrot in front of you and you keep pulling the wagon.  They will never give you that carrot, it’s the only power they have.  

spot-on.  Seriously, it's just sad.

[We’reTexas 1469]

11 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

I basically bailed on the GOP after Iraq.  There were other issues, and having been a campaign volunteer for George W, both gubernatorial, and his 2000 run, I was getting pretty soured on the people that I was around during those times.  People that were pushing religion, morals, etc., publicly, but then you are around them in private, and it's a huge fucking joke to them, and they are cheating on their wives, doing all kinds of crazy shit, etc.

Too much hypocrisy, and the crazy thing is, while I can't really divorce Iraq from this situation - it's a fucking horrible thing that Bush can never atone for, and one that Trump has never come close to approaching internationally, I keep feeling like 2020's GOP makes the GOP of the 1990s (even with fucking Newt Gingrich) and the early 2000s look absolutely sane and benevolent, and makes them look almost like saints.

I think time has softened how bad the “freedom fries” jingoism among the right was preceding Iraq. And the swift boaters were the first really organized right-wing misinformation campaign - and they actually believed it. It was only a matter of time before death panels and Bill Ayers. 

[Judge Roybeanbag 11810]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

spot-on.  Seriously, it's just sad.

Yep, I can write a thesis and point out where they identified that carrot 50 some years ago.  Unsurprisingly, that thing they promised to fix, it has never been fixed.  Neither have deficits or small government or any other gop “principles”.  You are a goddamned fool if you vote for any of that.

[We’reTexas 1469]

16 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Basically this is the problem.  We don't explain it is in their self-interest to go Democratic.  The republican strategy of old enriched the rich, and made our food mystery meat, and poisoned our waters and air.    Regulations are good, they provide safe working environments, safe food, and safe medicine, and licensed professionals are actual qualified.    Upton Sinclair found out we were motivated with our bellies, so lets rebrand that way.

Agreed. For example, not that Biden’s campaign would be aware of this, but promoting clean energy seems to me like a pretty good sell for the Texas economy. We have the begun the era of consolidation in O&G and the future of shale has dimmed. With household names like Anadarko, Parsley, Concho etc gone, so are thousands of high-paying jobs that contributed to the Texas boom over the past decade, and this will ripple throughout the economic ecosystem surrounding O&G.
 

But it’s not a given that Texas will attract the growing renewables sector simply because it’s the energy capital (most banks have their renewables desks in SF or NYC, for example), and I think it would be sensible for the state to attract that growth to create jobs and diversify the economy. But I never see the issue framed that way. Instead, we make it an environmental one, the economic benefits of which are not immediately apparent and underlying issues of which are often disputed or denied.  

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19093]

Agreed. For example, not that Biden’s campaign would be aware of this, but promoting clean energy seems to me like a pretty good sell for the Texas economy. We have the begun the era of consolidation in O&G and the future of shale has dimmed. With household names like Anadarko, Parsley, Concho etc gone, so are thousands of high-paying jobs that contributed to the Texas boom over the past decade, and this will ripple throughout the economic ecosystem surrounding O&G.
 
But it’s not a given that Texas will attract the growing renewables sector simply because it’s the energy capital (most banks have their renewables desks in SF or NYC, for example), and I think it would be sensible for the state to attract that growth to create jobs and diversify the economy. But I never see the issue framed that way. Instead, we make it an environmental one, the economic benefits of which are not immediately apparent and underlying issues of which are often disputed or denied.  

I completely agree.

[DonkeyCigars 144]

45 minutes ago, Mole said:

The Hilary comparison is a tacit admission of the outgoing president’s failure of leadership. The standard isn’t Hilary trying to convince the opposition party to not kill themselves and each other; the standard is a potted fern. Had the president simply modeled proper behavior, his followers would have mostly followed and the current situation would be far better. Had he done nothing at all we would all be better off. The potted fern as president would have saved lives. The presidency is a leadership role. 

His failure to mode good behavior, and even actively working against really basic measures, quite obviously led to numerous deaths. Writing that off as conjecture isn’t intellectually honest. At a minimum, his rallies killed his followers and at least one colleague. 
 

So yeah, it’s life and death.

I get your points, I think. I just don’t subscribe to them on the whole. I’m willing to grant that DJT has a lot of responsibility and he should wear the deaths of Americans on his heart. On the other hand, I think the whole potted plant rhetoric, as well as laying all the dead at the feet of DJT isn’t intellectually honest, but rather an emotional overreaction. I am not invalidating your feelings or opinions by saying this, by the way, I hear you and am trying to put myself in your shoes and I respect you and our differences.

[DonkeyCigars 144]

52 minutes ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

Yes, you are a useful idiot if you vote based on that one issue.  They keep dangling that abortion carrot in front of you and you keep pulling the wagon.  They will never give you that carrot, it’s the only power they have.  

You’re probably right, but for as much as I can control and as far as I can throw politicians, I can just vote and try and do the best I can in my life and with my family in my tiny sphere of influence. Just do the next best thing and if I’m being strategically lied to as you suggest, then I’m a fool.

The political system is probably best analogized as a rigged game ran by carnies, but I’ll take the a chance at shooting the ball into the bent rim as even a .01% of making the goal is better than the 0% with just not taking a shot at all.

[Guest]

Abortion is never going to be illegal in this country.

If you don't like it, raise kids who won't consider it as a solution.

[JimmyJames 12271]

1 hour ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Temporary is a relative term, for sure. I also think you assign too much credit (and responsibility/conjecture) to a butterfly effect in your first paragraph-- especially when you consider the operations are within the bounds of legality. 

To your second point, I guess it's fair, but I don't share the belief and definitely not the sentiment. But it is fair that ultimately you can put the deaths at the feet of the leader after accounting for what he did and didn't do, on a balance. I'm not so sure what the delta would be with an alternative leader (presumably, Hillary?). I would guess that she would have modeled mask hygiene and communicated for her base to to be responsible, but I also don't believe the basket of deplorables would have listened and you would have had a same net result. All conjecture of course, mine and yours, which really leads me to the tenet of my thinking:

The politicians we elect to President are temporary and ever-changing. To get worked up about it seems pointless and short-sighted. Capitalist society is set up for this to be this way. The guys and gals occupying the oval office every 4-8 years aren't much more (with the anomaly being DJT) than a finely-degreed, decently polished professional figurehead representing the popular sentiment of roughly 45-55% of Americans depending on the year.

And the American people are growing more divided by the day due to the inertia of explosive population growth, a finite/scarce resources economic architecture, and ideas, beliefs, cultures and values that can be shared at lightspeed, across geographies, and can increasingly live without much oxygen in closed-loop systems of echo chambers and silos due to rapid advancements in technology.

So, hey. Trump lost. I gave it 30 seconds of regret before moving on with my life, as I would counsel for all reasonable and decent folks who voted for Trump. Don't worry about things out of your control.

Also, I should edit to add...Trump lost to Biden! I mean, you can't really ask for much more. That's barely a loss. I feel like CK Louis in that skit, "You can't even hurt my feelings!"

This post is bullshit.

[aggie08 21434]

It's a whole lot of words to say absolutely nothing, that's for sure.

[wildcat09 29257]

1 minute ago, aggie08 said:

It's a whole lot of words to say absolutely nothing, that's for sure.

He’s pretty good at that, so he must be a lawyer. 

 

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

1 minute ago, Nivek said:

Basically this is the problem.  We don't explain it is in their self-interest to go Democratic.  The republican strategy of old enriched the rich, and made our food mystery meat, and poisoned our waters and air.    Regulations are good, they provide safe working environments, safe food, and safe medicine, and licensed professionals are actual qualified.    Upton Sinclair found out we were motivated with our bellies, so lets rebrand that way.

I've actually always liked that about our country in the sense that when it is a blend of capitalism and socialism it works pretty well. When it gets out of balance then not so good. That's recognizing, of course, that not everyone has had the same opportunities or has received all of the benefits, but as an average student in school, this is what used to stand out to me when we studied history. Greed is never going to disappear nor are any of the other less than desirable human attributes. Nor are there perfect political or economic utopias.

But looking at nature and prehistory--we NEED each other--we work together and the human race expands and develops and thrives. Things get out of balance and we fight, we starve, we suffer. The Democrats could go that way I suppose: the fear based strategy (using climate change as the example)  LOOK AT OUR EARTH! IT'S ON FIRE but somehow that doesn't quite get to the primal needs that the GOP addresses with their fear based attacks on: YOUR HOME! YOUR CHILDREN! YOUR WAY OF LIFE! ALL AT RISK DUE TO MARAUDER OTHERS! Even the big bad corporations are shadowy figures that don't come across as explicitly as the George Soros and Bill Gates tropes of wanting to take away your religion and put a microchip in your arm.

And yet, a corporation is made up of people and not necessarily a bad thing. Like you said: jobs, innovations that improve our lives, production of goods and services that the power of many working together as a comprehensive unit can efficiently provide. I guess as with all things, the devil is in the details. How much regulation is too much? Well, the people would like to have what you described--a trust that their work won't kill them, their food won't kill them, their medicine won't kill them and their doctor won't kill them for the sake of profit over everything else. This is where my libertarian family member and I sometimes get crosswise. His opinion that the market settles that is IMO small consolation to the first family to discover that their ice cream is laced with strychnine as a cheap additive ( purposely exaggerating) and are violently ill or dead. "That wouldn't be in their best interest" he would say. "They would go bankrupt because of the negative publicity." But I counter, " and at what point to they decide that a little bit of strychnine is acceptable if their profit margin triples?" I am way exaggerating here (or maybe not) with respect to what goes on at Ben and Jerry's or ahem...Bluebell, but with modern national and global supply chains, individuals haven't got the time nor ability to track every single item that they encounter. So they rely on these socialized agencies to aid in the endeavor to be healthy productive Americans. Except now, that trust is at an all time low.

The GOP got the jump on the Democrats and framed 'socialism' as X and socialism is bad. Whomever frames it first usually succeeds but I wish the Democrats would figure out a way to take back control of the framing to see how may of these programs/services do affect your life in ways you have forgotten you ever knew, if you knew at all. And the thing is, YOU pay for many of them but the 1% receive an outsize benefit from your sacrifice, not the mom working and receiving WIC across town.

[Jhawkmvp 1489]

4 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

I basically bailed on the GOP after Iraq.  There were other issues, and having been a campaign volunteer for George W, both gubernatorial, and his 2000 run, I was getting pretty soured on the people that I was around during those times.  People that were pushing religion, morals, etc., publicly, but then you are around them in private, and it's a huge fucking joke to them, and they are cheating on their wives, doing all kinds of crazy shit, etc.

Too much hypocrisy, and the crazy thing is, while I can't really divorce Iraq from this situation - it's a fucking horrible thing that Bush can never atone for, and one that Trump has never come close to approaching internationally, I keep feeling like 2020's GOP makes the GOP of the 1990s (even with fucking Newt Gingrich) and the early 2000s look absolutely sane and benevolent, and makes them look almost like saints.

We probably bailed about the same time. The post 9/11 shenanigans were another reason I left. I'm an atheist, but I don't care what people believe as long as they do not force their beliefs on me. Everyone needs something to get through life. However, the evangelicals and fundamentalists would love to push their ideas onto all of us and make it part of American government and education. Screw that.

I have been pretty lucky with dealing with MAGATS in my family and among my friends. I really don't check my Facebook feed much, however, I do use it to communicate with others a lot since I am overseas. When I do check the FB feed the 3-4 people who used to post Trump  stuff stopped earlier this year. They were all vets or nurses so whether it was due to impeachment/COVID/Military disrespect I am not sure, but something dimmed their support. I am sure they probably still voted for him, but they stopped wrapping themselves in the MAGA flag and I have not seen anyone posting the election is being stolen by Biden and the liberals either. I guess I got lucky.

The biggest issue I had was combating the socialism part. So many people have come to associate socialism with democrats without understanding what it is or all the socialism they benefit from every day right now. That was the biggest boogie man among those who refused to vote or voted for Trump that I know. 

[Nivek 16860]

10 hours ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

I've actually always liked that about our country in the sense that when it is a blend of capitalism and socialism it works pretty well. When it gets out of balance then not so good. That's recognizing, of course, that not everyone has had the same opportunities or has received all of the benefits, but as an average student in school, this is what used to stand out to me when we studied history. Greed is never going to disappear nor are any of the other less than desirable human attributes. Nor are there perfect political or economic utopias.

But looking at nature and prehistory--we NEED each other--we work together and the human race expands and develops and thrives. Things get out of balance and we fight, we starve, we suffer. The Democrats could go that way I suppose: the fear based strategy (using climate change as the example)  LOOK AT OUR EARTH! IT'S ON FIRE but somehow that doesn't quite get to the primal needs that the GOP addresses with their fear based attacks on: YOUR HOME! YOUR CHILDREN! YOUR WAY OF LIFE! ALL AT RISK DUE TO MARAUDER OTHERS! Even the big bad corporations are shadowy figures that don't come across as explicitly as the George Soros and Bill Gates tropes of wanting to take away your religion and put a microchip in your arm.

And yet, a corporation is made up of people and not necessarily a bad thing. Like you said: jobs, innovations that improve our lives, production of goods and services that the power of many working together as a comprehensive unit can efficiently provide. I guess as with all things, the devil is in the details. How much regulation is too much? Well, the people would like to have what you described--a trust that their work won't kill them, their food won't kill them, their medicine won't kill them and their doctor won't kill them for the sake of profit over everything else. This is where my libertarian family member and I sometimes get crosswise. His opinion that the market settles that is IMO small consolation to the first family to discover that their ice cream is laced with strychnine as a cheap additive ( purposely exaggerating) and are violently ill or dead. "That wouldn't be in their best interest" he would say. "They would go bankrupt because of the negative publicity." But I counter, " and at what point to they decide that a little bit of strychnine is acceptable if their profit margin triples?" I am way exaggerating here (or maybe not) with respect to what goes on at Ben and Jerry's or ahem...Bluebell, but with modern national and global supply chains, individuals haven't got the time nor ability to track every single item that they encounter. So they rely on these socialized agencies to aid in the endeavor to be healthy productive Americans. Except now, that trust is at an all time low.

The GOP got the jump on the Democrats and framed 'socialism' as X and socialism is bad. Whomever frames it first usually succeeds but I wish the Democrats would figure out a way to take back control of the framing to see how may of these programs/services do affect your life in ways you have forgotten you ever knew, if you knew at all. And the thing is, YOU pay for many of them but the 1% receive an outsize benefit from your sacrifice, not the mom working and receiving WIC across town.

I wish you would write more like this.   Where I am disjointed and at the mercy of a blindsided attack by a full speed 4 yr old, your thoughts come across easy and free.    My pronoun use alone might lead one to think I was a part-time royal.   

I had an amusing discussion with my most politically outspoken relatives once, where I asked them to define the terms they used.   Unsurprisingly, they failed to define socialism, communism, and fascism even in the most basic terms.   I would have felt a little humility had I been on the receiving end of that utter failure and immediately set about learning about this.  But no, they simply doubled down.   This is part of why we don't see eye-to-eye, because one of us is working from feelings while the other is working from actual information/definitions and the standard we hold ourselves to is different.   

Lastly, I have appreciated the utopian libertarian perspective similarly to a true communistic society free of barter and working with one another in a bonobo like society.   That the media is corporate owned, the media is 'fake news', or other such modern perspectives (lobbyists as campaign contributors) never creeps into this idea of poisoned ice cream, nor do they care about the caps placed on lawsuits and how that socializes risk while keeping gains privatized.  

 

[TwiceHorn 31283]

21 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Which has morphed into the lie that not only are we all in this alone, any notion that we live in a society/community where our actions impact others is treated as heresy to be cast out completely.  It's insanity.  The cult of the individual that has been created isn't just insane and anti-human, it's anti-American.

Read De Tocqueville -- he captured the essence of America at its founding.  He LITERALLY wrote about what made America great and unique - and it was our ability and drive to form associations, to work together for a collective good.

Balancing individual liberties with the obvious and human truth that we live in community, and that we all depend on each other and none of us are in this world alone, is how we can thrive as a nation.

And no, not all individuals have a fair shot at "determining their own destiny."  As has been stated here eleventy billion times, some people start the race with great training, great shoes, a great diet, and a support team around them.  Others start the race malnourished, untrained, barefoot, and alone.  In that race.....who are you betting on to finish?  Come on, for fuck's sake.  Yeah, maybe one of those starving barefoot guys has the greatest human will in history, and ekes out a finish.  But the odds are WAY against him.  Just like they are WAY in favor of the guy with shoes, training, and a support team.

The American Dream starts with what is actually the first word in our charter document -- WE.  I am very successful.  I would be an egotistical narcissist liar if I said that my achievements are mine, and mine alone.  I had supportive parents.  I had great educators.  I have had good mentors.  I had a public university of the first class educate me.  I benefit from a system of laws and rules that helps me succeed and prosper.  I have benefited from simple acts of kindness.  I have gotten lucky breaks.  I have a supportive spouse.  "I" have done only a part of what it takes for me to succeed -- "WE" have done a great deal to help me succeed.  America's toxic obsession with "me" at the expense of (and outright demonization of) "we" is killing us.  Literally, it's killing us.  We are dying from secondary effects of loneliness, isolation, and broken communities.  The worship of the individual to the exclusion of anything else is the worship of a false god.

I think this is very true.

And, unfortunately, a lot of the "self-actualization" thinking of the 60s got us there.  A lot of other things too.  Some unintended (and intended) consequences of government policies.

To a certain extent, this supplies the basis for the "culture war."  

But the answer is not to turn back the clock to 1955.  Nor is it to demonize those you think are outside your community.

Restoring community is a difficult task and the current environment does nothing to assist it.  Quite the opposite, in fact.

I'm not sure what is the answer, but somehow we need to restore a sense of community at every level.

[High Plains Drifter 10977]

On 11/10/2020 at 6:54 AM, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Cnn is center-left, Fox is right but the compromise was to turn to msnbc which is left of cnn? You taught the Fox News crowd to not complain or it gets worse.

But to the overall topic, if someone starts talking far right politics, my response is how about we not talk politics. That usually shuts up most people. If they start up again. I remind them we agreed not to talk politics. I don’t care if they actually agreed or not. Now the problem for 24/7 news junkies is that they probably have nothing else to talk about. You might need to bring up the topics.

of course, so much has become politicized over the past few years. Maybe there isn’t any non politicized conversation left. Can’t even talk about weather.

 

I hear you brother. I have an neighbor whom I kind of randomly see around the 'hood when our dog walks happen to overlap, which doesn't happen that often, for whatever reason.  I knew he was a republican, but he always seemed sane and reasonable. We used to have friendly conversations. Just to have something to talk about, I brought up the sad state of his favorite team the Patriots. He got all hot and bothered and proclaimed that he doesn't watch the NFL anymore because they (meaning the players) are entertainers and shouldn't be putting politics on the field and by gawd he's not going to watch the flag he fought for be disrespected blah blah blah.

I just nodded, interrupted his rant, and said "well, good seeing you again, I gotta run.." and backed right out of that conversation. It'll probably be the last I have with that guy.

I don't need that shit in my life. I can get all I want on our own football board.

And I don't really watch the NFL anyway. (Do they even actually show the players kneeling on TV? I honestly don't know.)

 

 

[C-Man 27057]

 
I hear you brother. I have an neighbor whom I kind of randomly see around the 'hood when our dog walks happen to overlap, which doesn't happen that often, for whatever reason.  I knew he was a republican, but he always seemed sane and reasonable. We used to have friendly conversations. Just to have something to talk about, I brought up the sad state of his favorite team the Patriots. He got all hot and bothered and proclaimed that he doesn't watch the NFL anymore because they (meaning the players) are entertainers and shouldn't be putting politics on the field and by gawd he's not going to watch the flag he fought for be disrespected blah blah blah.
I just nodded, interrupted his rant, and said "well, good seeing you again, I gotta run.." and backed right out of that conversation. It'll probably be the last I have with that guy.
I don't need that shit in my life. I can get all I want on our own football board.
And I don't really watch the NFL anyway. (Do they even actually show the players kneeling on TV? I honestly don't know.)
 
 

I haven’t noticed at all this year, though I’m not looking for it.

[atomheartbevo 89449]

7 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

And I don't really watch the NFL anyway. (Do they even actually show the players kneeling on TV? I honestly don't know.)

Don't know, since I pretty much stopped watching the NFL after Bud Adams destroyed the Oilers.

But I know a lot of people who actually claimed they stopped watching because of the kneeling, even though I'm pretty sure they watch very little outside of the playoffs/Super Bowl.

And they have no problem with flag desecration (thin blue line flags).

And most of these people took Trump's loss hard, and some were already difficult to talk with before.  Those folks made damn sure you knew they were patriotic.  They had to inject a comment about the NFL into a conversation about a family member or the weather or whatever.

Edited November 11, 2020 by atomheartbevo

[Enchubben 5509]

6 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

(Do they even actually show the players kneeling on TV? I honestly don't know.)

I wouldn't know because i don't watch that trash product with a bunch of whiny athletes putting politics on the field while disrespecting the flag. (sarcasm) I stopped watching NFL when I stopped betting and playing fantasy football. 

[SydneyCarton 47884]

17 hours ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Which speaks to the narcissism, or at the very least a massive ego issue, where you can't back down/back away because of how it would look. But this is DJT we are talking about, not Wyatt Earp. DJT is a weasel. He will back down at the 11th hour and find a way to spin it as a win anyhow and then spend the next 4 years throwing shots at Biden and every misstep or mistake or bad thing that happens in the economy or world (and bad things happen all the time so it's a guarantee there will be fodder for that cannon).

That is what I think is on brand for the guy I voted for, which I know sounds ridiculous, but that's where we are in this conversation and society.

Someone upthread said I sounded like a useful idiot. Maybe I am, I don't know, I'll leave y'all to judge that. But I think DJT is the useful idiot and he delivered the Supreme Court Justices, he's done his job, now out with him. 

If you you truly believe that, then why did you vote for him TWICE? Because he delivered those judges before the elections. 

Edited November 11, 2020 by SydneyCarton