How to talk to Republicans who don't like "your facts" or facts in general.

[DonkeyCigars 143]

7 minutes ago, ndawg said:

Our democracy is doing a great job of putting people into government that represent "us." However, they are representing our identity, not our interests. The vast majority of Americans have got no idea how to craft policy that balances individual liberty with improving the common good. Nor do they have the capability of seeing value through the lens of other people, so they can't negotiate, and can only get their way by making demands. By electing those who represent their identity, they put people into power who are as clueless and stubborn as them.

That's interesting and insightful. I can definitely agree with you here. I think, to bring the conversation back to the crux/topic, there are many tens of millions of folks who voted for Trump based on their interests. Which is seen as selfish and pathetic, right? This is the upper-middle class white guy in the suburbs we talk about who are shrugging their shoulders that Trump lost and not losing sleep over it. But isn't that what you are suggesting we do? (Not to mention the tens of millions who voted for Trump based on identity and actually voted against their interests).

I think if we drill down a level deeper, you are saying people should have a shared interest of a higher Maslow's order of hierarchy way, in that our interests ought to be utilitarian in nature (which makes sense as JS Mill's spirit was darn near a founding father it seems) and our shared interest ought to more or less be the same big buckets with the differentiation being on the margins.

Edited November 11, 2020 by DonkeyCigars

[DonkeyCigars 143]

I'm struck by what you just posted Brisket. Specifically about how Bubba in Montgomery County.

Anyways, I better get to work, these hours ain't gonna bill themselves, har har har.

edit to add: Cool thread you guys have here, thanks for letting me engage, hope it works out for those with personal relationships in strife due to the insanity and good luck at Thanksgiving with all our figurative MIL's that I know all too well like my boy Sydney Carton mentioned he had to deal with.

Edited November 11, 2020 by DonkeyCigars

[ndawg 1242]

1 minute ago, DonkeyCigars said:

I think, to bring the conversation back to the crux/topic, there are many tens of millions of folks who voted for Trump based on their interests. Which is seen as selfish and pathetic, right? But isn't that what you are suggesting we do?

No, it's seen as improvident. Trump is a complete buffoon with absolutely zero ability and even less self awareness. At best, he can order handouts to people who vote for him, i.e. quid-pro-quo. When you look at the entire executive branch underneath him, however, it's a who's-who of worlds-biggest-idiots and "yes men." A government run by a cult cannot keep America headed in a positive direction. Voting for Trump is in nobody's long term interests.

4 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

I think if we drill down a level deeper, you are saying people should have a shared interest of a higher Maslow's order of hierarchy way, in that our interests ought to be utilitarian in nature (which makes sense as JS Mill's spirit was darn near a founding father it seems) and our shared interest ought to more or less the same big buckets with the differentiation being on the margins.

I'm not really trying to say anything about what our interests should be. Just that we have plenty of representation happening in government, it's just the wrong kind of representation.

[Biff Tannen 46061]

Can someone explain to me the scotus obsession/excuse by a lot of Rs?  I really don’t get it. Is it just abortion?

[elfenix 34658]

9 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Can someone explain to me the scotus obsession/excuse by a lot of Rs?  I really don’t get it. Is it just abortion?

abortion (and generally allowing more of the current concept of christianity into government as a whole, and remember that protestant concept of religion in government is a deeply held belief that goes back to time immemorial 1972), reduction of voter rights, affirmative action (gorsuch is going to use the same logic from the sex discrimination case to attempt to overturn affirmative action), further erosion of the power of administrative agencies up to and including the elimination of the administrative state as we know it.  

Edited November 11, 2020 by elfenix

[Huckleberry 34407]

2 hours ago, DonkeyCigars said:

And I'm fully aware that I'm not helping any cause here by belaboring points and using a lot of words to not say much, but I'm really trying to explain and express a perspective in a decent way that is unmoored of disrespect and insult and that I know is unpopular here, and apparently as the election told us last week, in America in 2020.

You're getting closer to your moment of self-realization. Keep going. 

[wildcat09 29558]

9 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Can someone explain to me the scotus obsession/excuse by a lot of Rs?  I really don’t get it. Is it just abortion?

They want to use their control over the court to dismantle the federal government and overturn any legislation that attempts to empower the federal government in order to curb the power of or increase taxes on big businesses. Their view of how America should be is essentially feudalism, but with lords replaced by big businesses.

[triplehorn 2664]

 

[NWBuck 8619]

25 minutes ago, elfenix said:

abortion (and generally allowing more of the current concept of christianity into government as a whole, and remember that protestant concept of religion in government is a deeply held belief that goes back to time immemorial 1972), reduction of voter rights, affirmative action (gorsuch is going to use the same logic from the sex discrimination case to attempt to overturn affirmative action), further erosion of the power of administrative agencies up to and including the elimination of the administrative state as we know it.  

As always, what's also at play here is money- I don't want government to tell me I have to pay into health care for abortions, I don't want the government to tell me that I can't discriminate in my business practices (and fine me when I do), I don't want the government to take away my tax-exempt status or federal funding because I don't WHATEVER IT IS...

[Bat Guano 363]

2 hours ago, DonkeyCigars said:

I'll join you, and everyone else, in the outrage and be on the front row of calling for his head if the clock hits double zero and he's still in the office refusing to leave. U

I don't believe you. 

You sound like a pretty typical Trump voter; I may be wrong about that, but you fit the stereotype. And the typical Trump voter goes along with every escalation in Trump's drive toward autocracy and supports it, no matter what they said earlier.

Remember the impeachment? Seems like a long time ago now, but it was just earlier this year. Lots of Rs in the Senate said at the outset that the charges looked kind of bad, but as long as there was no quid pro quo, i.e. that Trump wasn't making the military aid contingent on Ukraine digging up/manufacturing dirt on Biden, it was probably OK. If there was a quid pro quo, that would be grounds for removal from office.

Well, there was a quid pro quo, proven beyond a reasonable doubt; several Rs even admitted as much, in so many words - the Ds proved their case. And of course they moved the goalposts, forgot about what they'd said before, whatever - but they voted not to remove him from office, bottom line. One exception, not enough to make a difference. Principles? Who needs fucking principles? 

Trump is planning a large-scale insurrection to overturn the results of the election, the will of the people. That is his strategy; he's planning 'rallies' already (and who knows what the fuck he's planning for the DoD to do, but that certainly bears looking into). His plan is to pressure the legislatures in R-controlled states that didn't vote his way - Pennsylvania and then  Wisconsin - into not certifying the results, and picking the electors for the EC themselves. It's out in the open - that is what he plans to do. 

And you will go along with it. You'll say he's within his rights to do what he's doing every step of the way, up to and including his refusal to leave on Jan. 20. Maybe that's just, like, my opinion, man, but  I'll be interested at what point you pull the plug on your support. My guess is never. Prove me wrong.

[Born to Run 6598]

Agreed. For example, not that Biden’s campaign would be aware of this, but promoting clean energy seems to me like a pretty good sell for the Texas economy. We have the begun the era of consolidation in O&G and the future of shale has dimmed. With household names like Anadarko, Parsley, Concho etc gone, so are thousands of high-paying jobs that contributed to the Texas boom over the past decade, and this will ripple throughout the economic ecosystem surrounding O&G.
 
But it’s not a given that Texas will attract the growing renewables sector simply because it’s the energy capital (most banks have their renewables desks in SF or NYC, for example), and I think it would be sensible for the state to attract that growth to create jobs and diversify the economy. But I never see the issue framed that way. Instead, we make it an environmental one, the economic benefits of which are not immediately apparent and underlying issues of which are often disputed or denied.  

Well said. It's the same deal as Coal. The market will force a larger pivot to renewables. When extraction in Texas is no longer profitable it's over. When BP has a plan to completely get out of oil, you might want to get on board.
Trump didn't bring big beautiful coal back because the companies utilizing it found it to no longer be profitable despite cutting regulations.

The Dem narrative needs to hammer that point over and over. Protect O and G jobs now (even if it's partly bs) but prepare for a future when those jobs are gone.

[MissingInAction 25478]

39 minutes ago, NWBuck said:

As always, what's also at play here is money- I don't want government to tell me I have to pay into health care for abortions, I don't want the government to tell me that I can't discriminate in my business practices (and fine me when I do), I don't want the government to take away my tax-exempt status or federal funding because I don't WHATEVER IT IS...

Ahhh what dream that would be. Only paying the taxes I want to pay. 

[Born to Run 6598]

You’re probably right, but for as much as I can control and as far as I can throw politicians, I can just vote and try and do the best I can in my life and with my family in my tiny sphere of influence. Just do the next best thing and if I’m being strategically lied to as you suggest, then I’m a fool.
The political system is probably best analogized as a rigged game ran by carnies, but I’ll take the a chance at shooting the ball into the bent rim as even a .01% of making the goal is better than the 0% with just not taking a shot at all.

Or you could get involved in organizations that actually do something about reducing the need or demand for abortions instead of supporting politicians that want to simply make it harder for the poor to get any reproductive care while they bang a side piece whilst married.

You could study other countries that have banned abortions and see women having to choose between a baby they can't feed and taking a potentially lethal herbal concoction to abort a fetus. Or poland where even aborting fetuses that cannot survive, and may kill the mother are also banned. And see that there is no end to using abortion as a wedge no matter how far you aquiesce.

Then you could look at the party claiming to be anti abortion, and see that they are fine with starting unnecessary wars that kill 100s of thousands, cut aid to the poor, cut food funding to kids and have done exactly zero to limit the need for abortions and maybe conclude you are being used.

[elfenix 34658]

51 minutes ago, NWBuck said:

I don't want the government to take away my tax-exempt status or federal funding because I don't WHATEVER IT IS...

https://www.jbhe.com/news_views/62_bobjones.html

[elfenix 34658]

2 hours ago, Born to Run said:

The Dem narrative needs to hammer that point over and over. Protect O and G jobs now (even if it's partly bs) but prepare for a future when those jobs are gone.

that takes too long to say, lots of people will think you're being disingenuous (they want to take our jobs and not help us! which isn't entirely outside of the line of experience in this country), lots of people won't be able to wrap their heads around the solution (the country can't afford to pay O&G workers the same in those new jobs! and other emetic responses to the green new deal), and most would rather pretend that their jobs can just keep going because that's what republicans and the extraction industry has been shouting for the last 30 years. 

[atomheartbevo 90548]

6 hours ago, DonkeyCigars said:

That's interesting and insightful. I can definitely agree with you here. I think, to bring the conversation back to the crux/topic, there are many tens of millions of folks who voted for Trump based on their interests. Which is seen as selfish and pathetic, right? This is the upper-middle class white guy in the suburbs we talk about who are shrugging their shoulders that Trump lost and not losing sleep over it. But isn't that what you are suggesting we do? (Not to mention the tens of millions who voted for Trump based on identity and actually voted against their interests).

I think if we drill down a level deeper, you are saying people should have a shared interest of a higher Maslow's order of hierarchy way, in that our interests ought to be utilitarian in nature (which makes sense as JS Mill's spirit was darn near a founding father it seems) and our shared interest ought to more or less be the same big buckets with the differentiation being on the margins.

Back in the 80s, I remember somebody having a "Ronnie says fuck the poor" bumper sticker, which we laughed at, mostly because "fuck", but hell, I was young and was not far removed from my family living in a trailer (mobile home these days, although they aren't very mobile), and eating cheap food, and buying toys and clothes second-hand.  I really had no context for why people would have such a bumper sticker, and why it was found to be funny among Republicans, but I was knee-deep in a Republican area, with a Republican family.

I have tossed around that many Trump supporters are just plain selfish assholes, in the mode of "Fuck you, pay me", but honestly, a more accurate description would be that many are ignorant uninformed and very short-sighted.    Well, there are plenty of selfish assholes (see Mitch, etc.), who know exactly what they are doing.

But many are uninformed or have a very narrow-minded view of the world.  In their minds, they HAVE to take care of themselves and their family, and fuck everybody else.  They can't necessarily articulate why they think this way - maybe they are not secure financially or employment-wise, and it bleeds through into their political views.

There's a lot of hypocrisy and they don't even realize it, and I blame some of that "prosperity gospel" shit.  They sit there and cheer on the "family values" and "Christian" candidate, but turn around and support policies designed to fuck over poor people, or that go out of their way not to help poor people.

But the bigger problem is that they should be supporting policies that do things like improve lower education among the poor, make higher education more affordable and accessible, build better safety nets to catch those who lose jobs (particularly areas that may rely on one industry, and would be fucked if that industry collapsed), build a better mental and physical healthcare system, better policing that doesn't create more problems than they solve.    

I'm oversimplifying, but it never ever occurs to them that when they bitch about helping pay for healthcare, they never realize that they are still paying for somebody else's healthcare, when  a poor person without healthcare ends up going to the emergency room for something that could have been dealt with in a regular doctor's office.  They support a really strong criminal justice system that locks people away constantly, but bitch if they are asked to help house and rehabilitate folks, not realizing that they are housing those same folks, only in a prison.  They offer thoughts and prayers over mass shootings, or get pissed at homeless camps near their house dragging down property values, or chronic drug use increasing crime, while acting like nothing can be done, but they don't want to put a few hundred bucks a year into a mental health system that can help those folks.  They bitch about the "bad" side of town, usually the poor side of town, without realizing that if they if they supported policies that improved education, and various other things that could help those folks out, they could improve that part of town, which would have huge effects that ripple out - higher incomes, lower crime rates/incarceration, more customers for local businesses, an increase in property values, tax revenue, etc.

During the Great Depression, and during World War II, a huge chunk of the population really buckled down for the common good, without it devolving into "OMG SOCIALISM COMMUNISM".  Shit, this is wildly oversimplified, and I'm aware of there are plenty of job programs out there, but we should go back to some kind of federal Works Progress Administration that takes people who are unemployed, and gives them good job opportunities, while doing a lot of shit that benefits the taxpayers who would normally be paying their unemployment/welfare.  People don't realize just how much stuff we have that is still around from the WPA of the 30s.

Enough ranting/wildly oversimplifying/generalization.

[JimmyJames 12271]

12 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Back in the 80s, I remember somebody having a "Ronnie says fuck the poor" bumper sticker, which we laughed at, mostly because "fuck", but hell, I was young and was not far removed from my family living in a trailer (mobile home these days, although they aren't very mobile), and eating cheap food, and buying toys and clothes second-hand.  I really had no context for why people would have such a bumper sticker, and why it was found to be funny among Republicans, but I was knee-deep in a Republican area, with a Republican family.

I have tossed around that many Trump supporters are just plain selfish assholes, in the mode of "Fuck you, pay me", but honestly, a more accurate description would be that many are ignorant uninformed and very short-sighted.    Well, there are plenty of selfish assholes (see Mitch, etc.), who know exactly what they are doing.

But many are uninformed or have a very narrow-minded view of the world.  In their minds, they HAVE to take care of themselves and their family, and fuck everybody else.  They can't necessarily articulate why they think this way - maybe they are not secure financially or employment-wise, and it bleeds through into their political views.

There's a lot of hypocrisy and they don't even realize it, and I blame some of that "prosperity gospel" shit.  They sit there and cheer on the "family values" and "Christian" candidate, but turn around and support policies designed to fuck over poor people, or that go out of their way not to help poor people.

But the bigger problem is that they should be supporting policies that do things like improve lower education among the poor, make higher education more affordable and accessible, build better safety nets to catch those who lose jobs (particularly areas that may rely on one industry, and would be fucked if that industry collapsed), build a better mental and physical healthcare system, better policing that doesn't create more problems than they solve.    

I'm oversimplifying, but it never ever occurs to them that when they bitch about helping pay for healthcare, they never realize that they are still paying for somebody else's healthcare, when  a poor person without healthcare ends up going to the emergency room for something that could have been dealt with in a regular doctor's office.  They support a really strong criminal justice system that locks people away constantly, but bitch if they are asked to help house and rehabilitate folks, not realizing that they are housing those same folks, only in a prison.  They offer thoughts and prayers over mass shootings, or get pissed at homeless camps near their house dragging down property values, or chronic drug use increasing crime, while acting like nothing can be done, but they don't want to put a few hundred bucks a year into a mental health system that can help those folks.  They bitch about the "bad" side of town, usually the poor side of town, without realizing that if they if they supported policies that improved education, and various other things that could help those folks out, they could improve that part of town, which would have huge effects that ripple out - higher incomes, lower crime rates/incarceration, more customers for local businesses, an increase in property values, tax revenue, etc.

During the Great Depression, and during World War II, a huge chunk of the population really buckled down for the common good, without it devolving into "OMG SOCIALISM COMMUNISM".  Shit, this is wildly oversimplified, and I'm aware of there are plenty of job programs out there, but we should go back to some kind of federal Works Progress Administration that takes people who are unemployed, and gives them good job opportunities, while doing a lot of shit that benefits the taxpayers who would normally be paying their unemployment/welfare.  People don't realize just how much stuff we have that is still around from the WPA of the 30s.

Enough ranting/wildly oversimplifying/generalization.

When I went to UT back in the early to mid 90s tuition was about 1k a semester and the state of Texas paid over 60 percent of the operating costs of the university. Socialism I guess.

Nowadays tuition is around 10 times that and the state of Texas pays less than 10 percent of the operating costs of the university, meaning if the University wanted to it could declare itself not a state institution. Thanks to the republicans. 

What shall we call that? 

[NWBuck 8619]

2 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

Back in the 80s, I remember somebody having a "Ronnie says fuck the poor" bumper sticker, which we laughed at, mostly because "fuck", but hell, I was young and was not far removed from my family living in a trailer (mobile home these days, although they aren't very mobile), and eating cheap food, and buying toys and clothes second-hand.  I really had no context for why people would have such a bumper sticker, and why it was found to be funny among Republicans, but I was knee-deep in a Republican area, with a Republican family.

I have tossed around that many Trump supporters are just plain selfish assholes, in the mode of "Fuck you, pay me", but honestly, a more accurate description would be that many are ignorant uninformed and very short-sighted.    Well, there are plenty of selfish assholes (see Mitch, etc.), who know exactly what they are doing.

But many are uninformed or have a very narrow-minded view of the world.  In their minds, they HAVE to take care of themselves and their family, and fuck everybody else.  They can't necessarily articulate why they think this way - maybe they are not secure financially or employment-wise, and it bleeds through into their political views.

There's a lot of hypocrisy and they don't even realize it, and I blame some of that "prosperity gospel" shit.  They sit there and cheer on the "family values" and "Christian" candidate, but turn around and support policies designed to fuck over poor people, or that go out of their way not to help poor people.

But the bigger problem is that they should be supporting policies that do things like improve lower education among the poor, make higher education more affordable and accessible, build better safety nets to catch those who lose jobs (particularly areas that may rely on one industry, and would be fucked if that industry collapsed), build a better mental and physical healthcare system, better policing that doesn't create more problems than they solve.    

I'm oversimplifying, but it never ever occurs to them that when they bitch about helping pay for healthcare, they never realize that they are still paying for somebody else's healthcare, when  a poor person without healthcare ends up going to the emergency room for something that could have been dealt with in a regular doctor's office.  They support a really strong criminal justice system that locks people away constantly, but bitch if they are asked to help house and rehabilitate folks, not realizing that they are housing those same folks, only in a prison.  They offer thoughts and prayers over mass shootings, or get pissed at homeless camps near their house dragging down property values, or chronic drug use increasing crime, while acting like nothing can be done, but they don't want to put a few hundred bucks a year into a mental health system that can help those folks.  They bitch about the "bad" side of town, usually the poor side of town, without realizing that if they if they supported policies that improved education, and various other things that could help those folks out, they could improve that part of town, which would have huge effects that ripple out - higher incomes, lower crime rates/incarceration, more customers for local businesses, an increase in property values, tax revenue, etc.

During the Great Depression, and during World War II, a huge chunk of the population really buckled down for the common good, without it devolving into "OMG SOCIALISM COMMUNISM".  Shit, this is wildly oversimplified, and I'm aware of there are plenty of job programs out there, but we should go back to some kind of federal Works Progress Administration that takes people who are unemployed, and gives them good job opportunities, while doing a lot of shit that benefits the taxpayers who would normally be paying their unemployment/welfare.  People don't realize just how much stuff we have that is still around from the WPA of the 30s.

Enough ranting/wildly oversimplifying/generalization.

I really can't post this often enough- Folks should read "Dying of Whiteness"

Here's video of a presentation he did:

 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13707]

I can’t tell if my right wing friends have moved their political talk from Facebook to parler or they’ve started to accept that trump actually lost. I assume a bit of both.  Even they can’t help but see more than a few talking heads from the right tell them to truth.

It would be nice if more than 3 gop politicians would state the obvious but that might hurt them with the trump base. My guess is that most of them will never acknowledge that trump loss. Maybe at best they will say that based on the questionable results by some states, joe Biden is president.

[WhatTheBuck 28904]

According the NBC News just now, Karl Rove published an op-ed in the WSJ overnight saying Tump's legal efforts won't move any States out of Biden's column and certainly wouldn't be enough to overturn the election results. 

[C-Man 27685]

36 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

According the NBC News just now, Karl Rove published an op-ed in the WSJ overnight saying Tump's legal efforts won't move any States out of Biden's column and certainly wouldn't be enough to overturn the election results. 

In addition to Rove saying it's over, I believe Robert Jeffress said as much yesterday too.

[atomheartbevo 90548]

2 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I can’t tell if my right wing friends have moved their political talk from Facebook to parler or they’ve started to accept that trump actually lost. I assume a bit of both.  Even they can’t help but see more than a few talking heads from the right tell them to truth.

My relatives are just not talking at all about it - last week, one or two were like "Trump hasn't actually lost yet", and now they are not even doing that.

I assume the Qanon relative has been at Parler or whatever for a while.  Well, I know she and her bf are at Voat.co

But I don't see my senior citizen relatives bailing for Parler.

[wildcat09 29558]

13 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

Back in the 80s, I remember somebody having a "Ronnie says fuck the poor" bumper sticker, which we laughed at, mostly because "fuck", but hell, I was young and was not far removed from my family living in a trailer (mobile home these days, although they aren't very mobile), and eating cheap food, and buying toys and clothes second-hand.  I really had no context for why people would have such a bumper sticker, and why it was found to be funny among Republicans, but I was knee-deep in a Republican area, with a Republican family.

I have tossed around that many Trump supporters are just plain selfish assholes, in the mode of "Fuck you, pay me", but honestly, a more accurate description would be that many are ignorant uninformed and very short-sighted.    Well, there are plenty of selfish assholes (see Mitch, etc.), who know exactly what they are doing.

But many are uninformed or have a very narrow-minded view of the world.  In their minds, they HAVE to take care of themselves and their family, and fuck everybody else.  They can't necessarily articulate why they think this way - maybe they are not secure financially or employment-wise, and it bleeds through into their political views.

There's a lot of hypocrisy and they don't even realize it, and I blame some of that "prosperity gospel" shit.  They sit there and cheer on the "family values" and "Christian" candidate, but turn around and support policies designed to fuck over poor people, or that go out of their way not to help poor people.

But the bigger problem is that they should be supporting policies that do things like improve lower education among the poor, make higher education more affordable and accessible, build better safety nets to catch those who lose jobs (particularly areas that may rely on one industry, and would be fucked if that industry collapsed), build a better mental and physical healthcare system, better policing that doesn't create more problems than they solve.    

I'm oversimplifying, but it never ever occurs to them that when they bitch about helping pay for healthcare, they never realize that they are still paying for somebody else's healthcare, when  a poor person without healthcare ends up going to the emergency room for something that could have been dealt with in a regular doctor's office.  They support a really strong criminal justice system that locks people away constantly, but bitch if they are asked to help house and rehabilitate folks, not realizing that they are housing those same folks, only in a prison.  They offer thoughts and prayers over mass shootings, or get pissed at homeless camps near their house dragging down property values, or chronic drug use increasing crime, while acting like nothing can be done, but they don't want to put a few hundred bucks a year into a mental health system that can help those folks.  They bitch about the "bad" side of town, usually the poor side of town, without realizing that if they if they supported policies that improved education, and various other things that could help those folks out, they could improve that part of town, which would have huge effects that ripple out - higher incomes, lower crime rates/incarceration, more customers for local businesses, an increase in property values, tax revenue, etc.

During the Great Depression, and during World War II, a huge chunk of the population really buckled down for the common good, without it devolving into "OMG SOCIALISM COMMUNISM".  Shit, this is wildly oversimplified, and I'm aware of there are plenty of job programs out there, but we should go back to some kind of federal Works Progress Administration that takes people who are unemployed, and gives them good job opportunities, while doing a lot of shit that benefits the taxpayers who would normally be paying their unemployment/welfare.  People don't realize just how much stuff we have that is still around from the WPA of the 30s.

Enough ranting/wildly oversimplifying/generalization.

This is ahistorical. The New Deal actually had a lot of opposition and they freaked out and called it socialism. FDR managed to mitigate the political damage that attack caused by denying a lot of the benefits of New Deal programs from black people. It was a lot easier to sell conservative-leaning whites on social programs that only helped out white people.

We are and always have been a deeply divided country because the white conservative bloc that has almost always dominated American politics has a very different idea of what America should be than everyone else does.  

[DonkeyCigars 143]

26 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

We are and always have been a deeply divided country because the white conservative bloc that has almost always dominated American politics has a very different idea of what America should be than everyone else does. 

“Founder’s Dilemma”

Thanks for the knowledge though, I didn’t know that and thought like atomheart. 

I think an important thing to consider is that we will be able to test your hypothesis sooner than later— the white conservative bloc as you describe it is on borrowed time and will soon be a “Generation X”-sized bloc, and every bit as impotent, if the demographic trend continues at the pace things are changing across the country. No doubt a Democratic regime will be good for a tick higher growth of what is already a naturally occurring trend.

The only thing that gave me pause and was curious was the way Hispanics in Texas responded in this election and am curious to see if it’s a regional anomaly or an evolution in subset demographic behavior.

Edited November 12, 2020 by DonkeyCigars

[pyrohornIII 4844]

 

11 hours ago, NWBuck said:

I really can't post this often enough- Folks should read "Dying of Whiteness"

Here's video of a presentation he did:

 

I watched this and I definitely see the points his data supports.   And at one point he said that things would be so much better if the poor whites and poor blacks joined forces against the elitists.   I really wish somehow that could be the end message here.   It's not between races, it's between those with wealth and power and those without.   Racism is a tool they use to manipulate us all, and always have.    

[wildcat09 29558]

5 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

“Founder’s Dilemma”

Thanks for the knowledge though, I didn’t know that and thought like atomheart. 

I think an important thing to consider is that we will be able to test your hypothesis sooner than later— the white conservative bloc as you describe it is on borrowed time and will soon be a “Generation X”-sized bloc, and every bit as impotent, if the demographic trend continues at the pace things are changing across the country. No doubt a Democratic regime will be good for a tick higher growth of what is already a naturally occurring trend.

The only thing that gave me pause and was curious was the way Hispanics in Texas responded in this election and am curious to see if it’s a regional anomaly or an evolution in subset demographic behavior.

People have been thinking this for decades and yet the GOP has become much more radically conservative and managed to maintain its political power. The dominant conservative bloc is very good at assimilating just enough new minorities into "whiteness" to maintain the status quo. Sometimes this is explicit, like how over time Irish-Americans and Italian-Americans just became white, or how Jews are usually considered to be white (until it's time to start blaming them for organizing white genocide or whatever). Sometimes it is implicit, like how Clarence Thomas (who nobody would ever call white) has so deeply internalized the values of white supremacy that he opposes integration.

Our great great grandchildren will be fighting these same battles.

[DonkeyCigars 143]

9 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

People have been thinking this for decades and yet the GOP has become much more radically conservative and managed to maintain its political power. The dominant conservative bloc is very good at assimilating just enough new minorities into "whiteness" to maintain the status quo. Sometimes this is explicit, like how over time Irish-Americans and Italian-Americans just became white, or how Jews are usually considered to be white (until it's time to start blaming them for organizing white genocide or whatever). Sometimes it is implicit, like how Clarence Thomas (who nobody would ever call white) has so deeply internalized the values of white supremacy that he opposes integration.

Our great great grandchildren will be fighting these same battles.

You bring up a good point about the assimilation. I was filling out a demographic survey for something or another a few weeks ago and noticed when they ask for your race/ethnicity, I think they combined hispanic with white which I thought was weird. But I had forgotten that at one point being a "Mick" or an "Eye talian" or a "Pollock" was to be discriminated against and oppressed. I haven't seen Gangs of New York in a while, I guess.

Those European/caucasian ethnicities all share a melanin family though, I feel like you'd have to change the language of the label and broaden the aperture of "white" to include model minorities that are brown like South Asians and Latinx. Though I could see Asian being able to slide into the identity of white as you suggest it evolves.

Regardless, I'm not as bearish on these battles still being fought in 50 years as you are, but I see your point and see it as a possibility. It all depends on the next generation of GOP leaders; we've seen the next wave of Democratic leaders, I think, but have we really seen the cohort from the right that seem primed (or even likely) to take the baton?

[Bama Chick 28596]

This is ahistorical. The New Deal actually had a lot of opposition and they freaked out and called it socialism. FDR managed to mitigate the political damage that attack caused by denying a lot of the benefits of New Deal programs from black people. It was a lot easier to sell conservative-leaning whites on social programs that only helped out white people.
We are and always have been a deeply divided country because the white conservative bloc that has almost always dominated American politics has a very different idea of what America should be than everyone else does.  

Oh yes. There’s some serious ignorance around the history of the racism and sexism embedded in The New Deal.

And it wasn’t just Black people that got left out - it was Native Americans and Asians and Hispanics and pretty much every minority group.

FDR had to appease the Southern Democrats and wrote discriminatory language into many of his policies.

Just Google “The New Deal” and racism and you’ll get a bunch of articles that spell out all the different ways TND actively harmed minorities.

[TwiceHorn 31987]

23 hours ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

I would like to amend your first sentence slightly to "we have never, ever reckoned with our original sin of slavery and oppression. Without a doubt, slavery is the most egregious and heinous sin, but the oppression has always been paired alongside of it and followed it and has thwarted any meaningful attempts at introspection, reconciliation, or atonement. When slavery existed, it set as the cultural standard (of the time) that oppression was justified, that groups of others, however they may be classified into such groups, could and should be subjugated or persecuted regardless of whether it was codified into law, according to religious scriptures, or as violations of some mythical standard. (i.e. the Jared Kushner X people are lazy sentiment). That it continues in its present and institutionalized forms, that we have not reckoned with either in an honest and forthright manner seems to have led us to our current situation. As you said, bases for division have always existed, but the oppression was baked in to exist during and after so that power would not be easily forfeited.

 

I will offer one thing.  Oppression, generally, is more easily overcome than oppression expressed as slavery.

We have oppressed many groups that have mostly overcome it and that is often used as an argument for "why don't the blacks just get over it."

Which is not to say that oppression is ok.  It's just that slavery really is of a different character.  And slavery followed by more generalized (and intense, again, because slavery) oppression, is just a different kettle of fish.

The point being that slavery probably needs its own "reconciliation."  Lumping other oppression in there is fine as far as it goes, but to some extent equating the two is problematic.

Edited November 12, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[pyrohornIII 4844]

Former White supremacist: This is how to tackle hate and bigotry

Opinion by Chris Buckley

 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/12/opinions/former-white-supremacist-how-to-tackle-hate-buckley/

 

Quote

I believe the cure for hate is education and healing from one's own issues and trauma. Many extremists who I have encountered suffer from similar emotional and physical issues that I dealt with.

Through my own intervention and in helping others, I have found that treating those issues requires getting help, in part, from someone who has lived the same experiences. Treatment often begins with recognizing and isolating the root of hatred.

As a former White supremacist and drug addict, I started to wonder if it was possible to be addicted to hate the way I was addicted to drugs as a coping tool. Based on this, I have spent the last two years developing two programs aimed at addressing the root causes of hate with Parents For Peace, which takes a public health approach to preventing radicalization, extremism, and violence.

 

[Guest]

On 11/11/2020 at 7:07 AM, TwiceHorn said:

I think this is very true.

And, unfortunately, a lot of the "self-actualization" thinking of the 60s got us there.  A lot of other things too.  Some unintended (and intended) consequences of government policies.

To a certain extent, this supplies the basis for the "culture war."  

But the answer is not to turn back the clock to 1955.  Nor is it to demonize those you think are outside your community.

Restoring community is a difficult task and the current environment does nothing to assist it.  Quite the opposite, in fact.

I'm not sure what is the answer, but somehow we need to restore a sense of community at every level.

Stop waiting for it to be solved by the government.  Build your community ties regardless ir even in spite of whomever is in power.  By the same token, stop destroying them because somebody 1500 miles away allegedly pissed you off.  Control what you can control, and stop ceding that influence on your ‘community’ to others.  Own it. 

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11669]

2 hours ago, slorch said:

Stop waiting for it to be solved by the government.  Build your community ties regardless ir even in spite of whomever is in power.  By the same token, stop destroying them because somebody 1500 miles away allegedly pissed you off.  Control what you can control, and stop ceding that influence on your ‘community’ to others.  Own it. 

so we can bomb it!

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre

[Guest]

1 minute ago, BehoId, The Underminer! said:

so we can bomb it!

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre

Oh yes, a tragedy from 99 years ago is absolutely indicative of how things happen in our society now.

 

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13619]

1 hour ago, slorch said:

Oh yes, a tragedy from 99 years ago is absolutely indicative of how things happen in our society now.

 

Volume-wise, no, with less than zero thanks to American conservatives.

Qualitatively, the president of the United States was publicly rationalizing extrajudicial killings. 

Not some random fringe wing-nut. Not some loner shunned from society.

The president of the United States. 

And tens of millions of his supporters were firmly behind him, as they notoriously are.

The very act that earned the McCloskeys, in 2020, a speaking spot the GOP National Convention, is the very act conservatives and police cite to rationalize Garrett Foster's murder here in Austin, and they occured under wildly different threat circumstances. Let's toss our own salad for that century of progress. 

 

[TexasEd 8248]

On 11/11/2020 at 12:54 PM, NWBuck said:

As always, what's also at play here is money- I don't want government to tell me I have to pay into health care for abortions, I don't want the government to tell me that I can't discriminate in my business practices (and fine me when I do), I don't want the government to take away my tax-exempt status or federal funding because I don't WHATEVER IT IS...

Taken to what you would think is an absurd position but is real life...

They don't want to pay for public education.  The only kids that should get a good education are the ones that can afford to go to private school where they make their future business connections in high school.  They want to preserve the class structure.

[Bookman 4754]

I don't understand the concept of voting for a corrupt, incompetent, immoral failed businessman because one wants conservative justices on the United States Supreme Court. It's just a fucking court. Justices can be added, and its jurisdiction can be taken away.

If you stand for conservative principles, electing Donald Trump President of the United States is one of the worst things you could have done. His election will have consequences.

Edited November 13, 2020 by Bookman

[Enchubben 5598]

13 minutes ago, TexasEd said:

Taken to what you would think is an absurd position but is real life...

They don't want to pay for public education.  The only kids that should get a good education are the ones that can afford to go to private school where they make their future business connections in high school.  They want to preserve the class structure.

This is absurd and completely made up bullshit. I have never once heard that in my life, much less thought it.  What I hear more than anything in my circles is the “I want my kids in public schools so they don’t turn out to be little brats” statement.

[SydneyCarton 49325]

16 minutes ago, Enchubben said:

This is absurd and completely made up bullshit. I have never once heard that in my life, much less thought it.  What I hear more than anything in my circles is the “I want my kids in public schools so they don’t turn out to be little brats” statement.

I know someone who used to say that. Attributed his success to public education and lessons it taught him, and his grit and gumption. He swore his kids would go to public school, it was an important and foundational part of how he and his wife saw themselves raising their family. Fortunately they could afford to live in arguably the best public school area of Houston. After a few years they still stuck their kids in private school. 
 

my wife and I moved to an area with a good public elementary. We figured we’d move when middle school came around. Then we had an opportunity to send our son to a private school where my wife got a job. And we’re jumping at it because the quality of education is night and fucking day, hands down, just orders of magnitude better than the public school near us. And that school is a STEM magnet. I don’t think about it in terms of Class Structure, but yeah, sticking my kid in a great private school if possible is an obvious choice because the education is better, the environment is better, the funding is better, and the opportunities it creates are orders of magnitude better. UT favors private schools in many instances. Maybe he’ll make business connections. I’ll worry about keeping him grounded and from being a spoiled shit myself, and anyone who has the opportunity to put their kid in a better position and doesn’t because they’re worried their kids will turn out to be “brats” sound like fucking idiots and shitty parents with no ability or willingness to shape their own kids upbringing outside of school. 

[Willfully Horn 8204]

On 11/10/2020 at 2:35 PM, staboner said:

good post my man. I think thats a bit of "we bitch now" so we don't have to panic later. 

Words matter. They matter across the spectrum of society - all ages, all religions, all political persuasions. they matter. 

the gentle testing of the limits from the Trumps is unacceptable. 

(as is the slow bleed of executive orders, which now will become even more out of control when Biden gets in. sadly though, we are not nearly as politically engaged as we need to be - going back some 20 years - to stop that trend from starting. its really one in the same when you think about it)

quoted. As I can only +rep once.

[Enchubben 5598]

38 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

I know someone who used to say that. Attributed his success to public education and lessons it taught him, and his grit and gumption. He swore his kids would go to public school, it was an important and foundational part of how he and his wife saw themselves raising their family. Fortunately they could afford to live in arguably the best public school area of Houston. After a few years they still stuck their kids in private school. 
 

my wife and I moved to an area with a good public elementary. We figured we’d move when middle school came around. Then we had an opportunity to send our son to a private school where my wife got a job. And we’re jumping at it because the quality of education is night and fucking day, hands down, just orders of magnitude better than the public school near us. And that school is a STEM magnet. I don’t think about it in terms of Class Structure, but yeah, sticking my kid in a great private school if possible is an obvious choice because the education is better, the environment is better, the funding is better, and the opportunities it creates are orders of magnitude better. UT favors private schools in many instances. Maybe he’ll make business connections. I’ll worry about keeping him grounded and from being a spoiled shit myself, and anyone who has the opportunity to put their kid in a better position and doesn’t because they’re worried their kids will turn out to be “brats” sound like fucking idiots and shitty parents with no ability or willingness to shape their own kids upbringing outside of school. 

This is all valid. I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with the pros/cons of public vs private education.

Im saying it’s complete fabricated bullshit that somehow republicans blanketly or even as a majority think we shouldn’t have to pay for public education and that only rich people should get a quality education so that we can preserve “the class structure”. 

[Willfully Horn 8204]

On 11/10/2020 at 6:53 PM, slorch said:

Meh.  Always fucking towing around that guilt, bro.

The same system exists for way the fuck more people than you.   You put in the work.  You made the tough decisions.  You made things happen that other people might have been able to... but didn't.  You showed up...to work, as a dad, as a husband.  These are the decisions and actions that give us personal worth.

There's not a gotdamn thing wrong with owning your results.  It's part of being human.  Of course you had the other influences, so did others.  Why aren't their results the same?   It's a rhetorical question, because you don't need to serve up another helping of your hatred for man.  Sitting here wishing everyone could have what you have when they aren't willing to put in the investment is just foolish...and impossible.  Those who choose to fuck off, harm others, or willing be shitstains own their results too.  I don't pity them...  I shouldn't have to unwillingly support their asses either.

Slorch, I don’t think Brisket is denouncing the  benefits of a healthy society, nor the value and reward of hard work. I think he is saying, contrary to our shared ideal, that the US is not as egalitarian a society as we want it to be. I am saying we seemingly want to cling to the belief our ideals are systematic rather than ensuring that they are.

Ideals like equal protection under the law.

[Guest]

I don’t  disagree in that aspect of life in America, and have consistently posted as such. 
 

Life ain’t perfect. We don’t shitcan everything else while we as a society seek solutions/ accountability on that particular front. 

[Willfully Horn 8204]

Life isn’t perfect. We should be together in working to make it less imperfect. Let’s work towards knowing we do all we can to ensure our values, and not become complacent that they are the correct values.

Perhaps I have consciously dismissed the shitcanning you mention, outside of defund the police. I confess that I see that as poor labeling, and a missed opportunity to improve policing.  I will look for other examples with greater purpose.

Edited November 13, 2020 by Willfully Horn
Lazy word choice

[Anastasis 23699]

On 11/9/2020 at 3:54 PM, RayDog said:

Most humans are poor critical thinkers.

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by Anastasis

[RayDog 682]

3 hours ago, Anastasis said:

 

That doesn't have anything to do with me you fucking idiot.

[HenryJames 67116]

 

[Anastasis 23699]

 

[Guest Lobo]

11 minutes ago, HenryJames said:

 

I didn't want to judge his appearance because I look like shit most days during Covid-19.  But when it zoomed out to reveal his plaid pajama pants and rolling suitcase from Tuesday Morning...I had to laugh.  If Gritty is the mascot of PA Biden voters, this guy gets to be the mascot of PA Trump voters.  

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

21 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I will offer one thing.  Oppression, generally, is more easily overcome than oppression expressed as slavery.

We have oppressed many groups that have mostly overcome it and that is often used as an argument for "why don't the blacks just get over it."

Which is not to say that oppression is ok.  It's just that slavery really is of a different character.  And slavery followed by more generalized (and intense, again, because slavery) oppression, is just a different kettle of fish.

The point being that slavery probably needs its own "reconciliation."  Lumping other oppression in there is fine as far as it goes, but to some extent equating the two is problematic.

Bolding the part in your paragraph for below:

That was partly my point. Oppression was baked in alongside of it for other outlier groups, but slavery (and being black) specifically was never meant or perhaps intended to be overcome (a minority of the population may have disagreed, but I would argue that the general sentiment was a callous indifference although attitudes may have changed as the war commenced. Southern propaganda was somewhat effective prior to the war). I agree that the two should not be treated as equal, but that the outcome of them being alongside each other throughout history has created a justification of sorts. You attorney types have a better way with words than I do, so thank you for distilling that more clearly.

I am weak in the current perspectives and research regarding the Civil War, so if I've erred, feel free to chime in.

[pyrohornIII 4844]

What I have found talking to a couple of guys I can actually discuss things with is that they realize Trump is a fool and the Republicans are crooks.   But instead of taking the GOP to task and holding them accountable, they are all in this phase of bothsiderism.  "Yeah well my guys are crooked, but your's are just as crooked if not more so.   At least my crooks are looking out for me."     

So it's a mixed situation.  While they admit foul shit going on, they condone it.   They condone it because it benefits them.   

If we could somehow get the "fake news" thing put to bed, then maybe we'd start righting the ship.  Quit running things off of emotion and start using logic and fact.

But critical thinking has been washed from our world.  Too many people have been educated to be cogs without even considering to analyze what is going on, much less rage against the machine.