Chinese Manufacturing and Imitation

[TwiceHorn 31536]

For many years, including before the Mao Revolution, Chinese-manufactured products were regarded as junk, and rightfully so.  The term "Chinese copy," which, although racist, was  intended as descriptive, actually can be found in a number of court opinions from the early 20th century.

For a couple of decades now, Chinese factories have manufactured top-quality, even best in class stuff under Western supervision.  An example of this is most Apple products, which, regardless of your affinity or aversion to them, must be recognized as very high quality.

But, even with westerners teaching them quality control and quality manufacturing techniques (or rejecting products by the metric shit ton), a lot of products made in China without western supervision remained junk.  Until fairly recently.  Finally, it seems that Chinese manufacturers are turning out pretty pretty good stuff on their own and not necessarily intended for western markets.  Whatever your field or interest (knives, guns, bicycles, computers, etc.), I think you can come up with a few examples of high-quality, low-cost Chinese products that are making inroads (this post was provoked by a $15 pocketknife that rivals US-branded and made knives that sell for north of $100).

So good for China I guess.  Scary for us maybe.  But there is one thing that remains:  for some reason unknown to me, Chinese seem to be afraid or unable to produce "original designs."  So many of their products are "knockoffs" (some legal, some not).

So, my question is, is there something inherent to Chinese philosophy or worldview (as there seems to be in the case of their very un-Western business and negotiation practices)  that tilts them toward imitation and away from innovation?  Is it just that their own markets didn't demand quality?

Discuss.

[Brisketexan 105336]

Oh, so, like, you're saying someone else invented delicious spicy General Tso's chicken BEFORE the Chinese?

I'm not falling for your lies, mister.

[pyrohornIII 4823]

I think part of it is that the people of China have been under the thumb of one form of government or the other, that self-expression and creativity outside the norms of acceptable Chinese cultural objects and writing has been stunted.    Here's a quote from a BBC article on how China has been shaped by its past. 

Quote

Today China's internet censors politically sensitive material, and those who utter political truths deemed problematic by the authorities may be arrested or worse.

The difficulty of speaking truth to power has long been an issue. China's historians have often felt they had to write what the state wanted rather than what they thought was important.

Now I know that that particular censorship is about politics, but I can see how the same attitude of self protection could stifle creativity.

Also, it could be that over the years their different religions have kept capitalism at bay.  They have gone through stretches of Confucianism and Buddhism which neither embrace capitalism like Christianity.   Maybe there is some long developed mindset that most material possessions are passing, so the quality of these items is of little importance.   But things that can be passed down from generation to generation are in a different class of goods.  

Interesting topic.

[F250 28818]

I assume part of it has to do with saving a shit ton of time and money by skipping the R&D process in order to close the gap with Western competition. When they eventually catch up they will need to take care if this for themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if they just hired a bunch of Westerners to fill that skill gap. Then we can do to them what they did to us.

By the way, didn't the Japanese start off by copying American products with cheap ripoffs?

 

[Sbbruin 21888]

I buy shit on Wish.com all the time.  Because it's so cheap I'd be crazy not to.

[RDCanecutter 26473]

Kymco in Taiwan made a rock-solid scooter. The things from Commniss China were gag-a-maggot. I blame Commnism.

[woohorn 1131]

They reverse engineer a bunch of stuff, but it is never quite the same as the original.

Just the other day I had a Chinese Coke...

[capnamerca 572]

My experience is by no means unique, and I don't really have insight into retail markets or other market forces; it was, however, eye-opening. On a business-school trip to Hong Kong, we had the chance to visit the "fake markets." After that day, I'm now convinced that a material portion of the real product that ends up on shelves in the US and UK is fake, especially when you're buying from second-hand distributors (like, say, every seller on Amazon). The last straw for me was the Hermes tie I bought. I'm sure some sort of high-fashion expert could tell the difference, but I sure as shit couldn't. Here's the thing - Hermes doesn't manufacture in China. They don't source from China. They don't design in China. WTF?

[TwiceHorn 31536]

Thanks for the discussion.  Yes, I think to a certain extent, Japan was this way, too.  If you have ever handled an Arisaka rifle from WWII, it's a piece of crap, but that's war production, and the Japanese built a number of original design aircraft and warships that apparently were top quality.  And there are numerous examples of fine craftsmanship from Japan from ancient times (Samurai Swords, for example).  I exclude the post-war period where American/Western influence was high and obviously they are one of the great manufacturing countries in the world now.

I don't think Korea was this way, but they may have gone straight from very primitive to very high tech, I'm not sure.  But I don't think Korean goods ever had a wide reputation as shoddy:  they went from virtually nonexistent to pretty good.

But since most of this was before my time, I can't speak to it the way we generally can with China.  Is there any product from China, like a samurai sword, that is actually "better" than the rest of the world's similar products?  I can't think of any, Chinese lacquer, maybe?  Their military production is almost entirely copies of Sovbloc weaponry.  They don't seem to be able to build a warship, or certainly not a fleet of them.  Even the Russkies could do that.

I think the point on R&D is valid, but there are a lot of products where the R&D is negligible (knives, for example), and they still imitate.  Also the point on repressive governments and statist attitudes probably has some effect; that is, Chinese engineering/manufacturing doesn't respond to the consumer or demand, it responds to the government.  Virtually all communist countries produced complete shit for ordinary consumption (Ladas, Trabants, etc.). Kalishnikovs are shitty, but they were designed to be shitty and work really well and they do.  Seems like a lot of Chinese stuff is plain shitty, not shitty but works.

On the capitalism/Christianity thing, I think rather than embracing capitalism, the "Protestant work ethic" along with the "invisible hand" more represent adopted/ extended/perverted "Christian principles" rather than the converse.  But the religious impact is probably a consideration.

 

Anyway, good discussion, welcome other thoughts.

Edited April 23, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[Stella Link 534]

I read one of the best conclusions about China from a Wall Street Journal article many years ago...China manufacturers don't innovate, they just copy.  

[SimonBolivar 10959]

2 hours ago, Sbbruin said:

I buy shit on Wish.com all the time.  Because it's so cheap I'd be crazy not to.

You can get the extended family's Christmas shopping done for $25. You just have to order it in September to get it here in time.

[Neonmoon 38130]

They did a nice job with the pussy

Edited April 23, 2018 by Neonmoon

[El Diablo 4232]

There's very little guesswork in making stuff that they know will sell to Western markets. Designing/innovation would require risk. Why bother?

[jimmyjazz 46130]

I have no evidence, but I suspect it's cultural.  Americans have been brought up thinking the moon is literally possible.  That's unique.  China has the schools and more than enough people to teach technology to a very high degree, but they are not raised to innovate.  It's just not a central theme.  They do a fantastic job of "getting the problem right", but are far less adept at connecting heretofore un-connected dots and thus creating something new.

<sorry for the culturoracism>

[TwiceHorn 31536]

Also, and I suppose this is getting sort of racist-y, but Chinese-Americans or Chinese in American schools seem to do very well in engineering disciplines, better per capita, than their American counterparts.  That may not be so true back in China.  Nevertheless, the engineering education gives one the tools to be innovative, but does not and probably cannot teach one to be innovative, it's kind of like talent, you got it or you don't.

 

And your American innovators, Jobs, Gates, Dell (Dell may not really count and this is a non-exhaustive list and maybe none of them actually count), aren't even graduates, much less in a technical discipline.

 

On the other hand, a whole lot of innovation is simply combining existing or known things in a new or new-ish way, or "repurposing" something that is known in a different field.  Innovation does not have to be "disruptive" or entirely original or novel.

 

Yet, the Chinese just don't do it.  Seems if they have the opportunity to reverse engineer or outright appropriate someone else's product, they do it 99/100.

Edited April 23, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[TwiceHorn 31536]

6 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I have no evidence, but I suspect it's cultural.  Americans have been brought up thinking the moon is literally possible.  That's unique.  China has the schools and more than enough people to teach technology to a very high degree, but they are not raised to innovate.  It's just not a central theme.  They do a fantastic job of "getting the problem right", but are far less adept at connecting heretofore un-connected dots and thus creating something new.

<sorry for the culturoracism>

Yeah, it's something sort of deep seated.  I don't think it's a bad thing to consider why cultures may be the way they are.  It's certainly a fascinating question.

 

Also, the British tend to be very innovative, even though their manufacturing is pretty crappy, or has become pretty crappy.  I'm not sure "the moon is really possible" is quite such a thing there, but they are culturally pretty similar to us, obviously

[jimmyjazz 46130]

Could it be . . . democracy?

[TwiceHorn 31536]

19 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Could it be . . . democracy?

Maybe so.  There are certainly different traditions of democracy in both countries.  Maybe, as I said earlier, it's that notion of "taking direction" from the market, or the people, or something or someone other than the government.

 

And, it may just be as simple as concepts of "freedom."  The western mind has been generally "free" since I guess the Renaissance.  The eastern mind, perhaps not so much.  I don't consider myself particularly creative and I'm not an engineer as a profession because I feared what that meant for me.  And I tend to think in patterns or ruts at times and it's hard to get my "wagon wheel" out of those "ruts.:  I suppose centuries of oppression can force that kind of thinking and suppress the freedom of thought that may lead to innovation.

Edited April 23, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[chainsaw 9873]

I don't buy that they aren't innovative.  Legend has it that they were actually the first to experiment with electric shocks to the testicles

[RDCanecutter 26473]

I think innovation has been pretty rare historically, We remember Archimedes, but forget the other million Greeks who must have said "Why you fuckin' round with them widgets, Arch? Pick up a rock and carry it on up the hill like everybody else."

[Sbbruin 21888]

20 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

 

<sorry for the culturoracism>

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

26 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I have no evidence, but I suspect it's cultural.  Americans have been brought up thinking the moon is literally possible.  That's unique.  China has the schools and more than enough people to teach technology to a very high degree, but they are not raised to innovate.  It's just not a central theme.  They do a fantastic job of "getting the problem right", but are far less adept at connecting heretofore un-connected dots and thus creating something new.

<sorry for the culturoracism>

Much of it is cultural. I've done business in China for many years and had always been astounded by their lack of "entrepreneurial spirit". One evening, I was out with some Chinese colleagues drinking way too much Baijiu and asked why. "Simple", I was informed. "The tallest nail is the one that gets hammered down".  They want to make enough money to be happy, but not enough money to get noticed by the government. Too successful & the government takes over your business or restricts what you can do. Why invest in that?

 

Edited April 23, 2018 by Cheeseweasel
Fuck OU

[FondrenRoad 4378]

5 minutes ago, RDCanecutter said:

I think innovation has been pretty rare historically, We remember Archimedes, but forget the other million Greeks who must have said "Why you fuckin' round with them widgets, Arch? Pick up a rock and carry it on up the hill like everybody else."

True.  And even while we laud the Japanese for making better cars and TVs than us, they're still cars and TVs.  Outside of defense innovations, most of what we consider modern innovations are instead predictable refinements.  I think the big next steps are in quantum computing, robotics, and AI.  China isn't so far behind us on either and may even be ahead.  The actual shocker is that Japan has fallen off.

[jimmyjazz 46130]

The idea that innovation is rare just bolsters the point.  Americans innovate.  Others, not as much.

[TwiceHorn 31536]

10 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Much of it is cultural. I've done business in China for many years and had always been astounded by their lack of "entrepreneurial spirit". One evening, I was out with some Chinese colleagues drinking way too much Baijiu and asked why. "Simple", I was informed. "The tallest nail is the one that gets hammered down".  They want to make enough money to be happy, but not enough money to get noticed by the government. Too successful & the government takes over your business or restricts what you can do. Why invest in that?

 

Well, that's certainly true of latter-day democrocommunist/capitalosocialist Chinese.  And maybe the oppression that quashed entrepreneurialism quashed innovative thought too.

[chainsaw 9873]

What's so innovative about america though?  A car's a car.  A phone's a phone.

[Brisketexan 105336]

Much of it is cultural. I've done business in China for many years and had always been astounded by their lack of "entrepreneurial spirit". One evening, I was out with some Chinese colleagues drinking way too much Baijiu and asked why. "Simple", I was informed. "The tallest nail is the one that gets hammered down".  They want to make enough money to be happy, but not enough money to get noticed by the government. Too successful & the government takes over your business or restricts what you can do. Why invest in that?
 

That culture predates the communists.

Collective cultures like China’s have many advantages. Innovation is not among them.

Individualist cultures like ours have many drawbacks. But they are ripe for innovators. I actually read a good piece recently about how the best innovation and invention occurs when creative types can work alone (as opposed to in a group).

[1978horn 896]

If it wasn't for China, how else would we get the new new internet?

[RandomIdoit 657]

4 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

What's so innovative about america though?  A car's a car.  A phone's a phone.

[RDCanecutter 26473]

I read an article a long time ago whose thesis was that one thing that helped push Europe into more innovation was that the Europe's "Classical" civilization got smashed up with the fall of the Roman Empire. Other places, like India, China, or I guess even the Byzantines, they had their barbarian troubles, but never completely fell apart like (Western) Roman Empire did.

[government-mandated pause so that Surl can tear that statement to bits like ravens feeding on the field after Odoacer passed through]

Anyway, dude pointed out that in some ways, the Dark Ages in Europe saw more tech innovations than the same places under the Romans.

Can't remember the source, but either that writer or another pointed out that the very geography of Europe made it more likely to have competing cultures instead of one main one, thus encouraging the guys on this island to try to outcompete the dudes on that peninsula, with some chance of holding out and surviving.

tldr: If the Franks hadn't been so good at throwing axes, you White People would be expected to study math or science by your demanding Roman parents.

Edited April 23, 2018 by RDCanecutter

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

7 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

That culture predates the communists.

Collective cultures like China’s have many advantages. Innovation is not among them.

Individualist cultures like ours have many drawbacks. But they are ripe for innovators. I actually read a good piece recently about how the best innovation and invention occurs when creative types can work alone (as opposed to in a group).

Good point and very much chicken/egg. The government reflects the desires of the people, ultimately. 

[TwiceHorn 31536]

13 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Good point and very much chicken/egg. The government reflects the desires of the people, ultimately. 

Yes very good.  Would we go so far as to say most Asian cultures are collectivist?

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

1 minute ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yes very good.  Would we go so far as to say most Asian cultures are collectivist?

"Far East Asia", certainly. Not so much in "near East Asia". 

[hayden_horn 11365]

we've always been at war with eastasia

[TheYoungHorn 58]

Did I miss the part where y'all talked about China's history of invention and perfecting techniques that spread across the globe and became standards even in pre-modern times.

For example: the white dishes your mom and grandma called "china." 

The literal whole field of porcelain is named after them for a reason, and it isn't because they made crappy, ripped off products. 

[TwiceHorn 31536]

7 minutes ago, OatmealRaisinCookie said:

TwiceHorn-- why have you been given to this curious and I guess you would call it deeper thinking lately? The pondering, the musings, I've heard they often times are symptomatic of an uneasiness. A quest to understand on a deeper level than just the "one day at a time" trope that recovery from certain--predilections, let's call them-- requires. You have a couple of posts now that are fundamentally curiosities. They feel almost born from restlessness. Are things okay?

Yeah, I'm cool.  Curious by nature.  I have wondered about osteopaths for quite a while now and was in my insurance app and saw DO DO DO DO.  Bought a cheap Chinese knife, not the first, but an impressive specimen nonetheless.  I have dealt with China and Chinese off and on for many years as part of my job, which deals directly with innovation.

[TwiceHorn 31536]

3 minutes ago, TheYoungHorn said:

Did I miss the part where y'all talked about China's history of invention and perfecting techniques that spread across the globe and became standards even in pre-modern times.

For example: the white dishes your mom and grandma called "china." 

The literal whole field of porcelain is named after them for a reason, and it isn't because they made crappy, ripped off products. 

To be fair, I asked about such things in the OP.  Gunpowder too, come to think of it.  Perhaps it is just a modern thing.

[hayden_horn 11365]

i think most of the current situation is directly related to mao's cultural revolution. anyone artistic or creative was purged, and a cultural scar like that does not heal quickly. i have some more thoughts on this, but creative thinking exists in chinese culture, but those who really stick themselves out makes themselves targets in a way.

[TheYoungHorn 58]

1 minute ago, OatmealRaisinCookie said:

You are Chinese, we get it.

Hahaha. 

You caught me. The most CaucASIAN person you might ever meet. Pale skin, blonde hair and blue eyes. 

[FondrenRoad 4378]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yeah, it's something sort of deep seated.  I don't think it's a bad thing to consider why cultures may be the way they are.  It's certainly a fascinating question.

 

Also, the British tend to be very innovative, even though their manufacturing is pretty crappy, or has become pretty crappy.  I'm not sure "the moon is really possible" is quite such a thing there, but they are culturally pretty similar to us, obviously

I think you're undervaluing consumerism when it comes to innovation and entrepreneurialism.  The risk/success ratio is much higher here because Americans are more likely to consume whatever a risk taker is selling whether it is a cro-nut or a Tesla.  It also makes sense that if another country wants to sell something to our consumer market it is far easier to profit by refining a product we are already known to enjoy.  Toyota and Samsung do pretty damn well without being considered innovators.

The relative lack of consumerism is seen in Western Europe as well.  It isn't just Asia.  Small entrepreneurs struggle to get off the ground everywhere except here.  Innovation elsewhere, including Japan and Korea was/is driven by their largest corporations.  That is now the model that China is following as their large tech manufacturers are only recently getting to that scale.

We also undervalue the things we don't consume.  A massive company like Tencent is ignored by us and has a bigger market cap than Facebook.

I've never seen the British as innovators.  I'd guess China is 2nd on a global scale, and Germany is 3rd right now.  I think China is underestimated on this thread and is being seen through a 20 year old lens.  I also think the current state of technology benefits China as we mostly know where the next great advances will lead, we just need to figure out how to get there.  The "collectivist" mindset is actually beneficial when attempting to achieve a known goal.

[TheYoungHorn 58]

Just now, TwiceHorn said:

To be fair, I asked about such things in the OP.  Gunpowder too, come to think of it.  Perhaps it is just a modern thing.

Gunpowder. 

Paper. 

Printing. 

THE FREAKING COMPASS

[TwiceHorn 31536]

1 minute ago, FondrenRoad said:

I think you're undervaluing consumerism when it comes to innovation and entrepreneurialism.  The risk/success ratio is much higher here because Americans are more likely to consume whatever a risk taker is selling whether it is a cro-nut or a Tesla.  It also makes sense that if another country wants to sell something to our consumer market it is far easier to profit by refining a product we are already known to enjoy.  Toyota and Samsung do pretty damn well without being considered innovators.

The relative lack of consumerism is seen in Western Europe as well.  It isn't just Asia.  Small entrepreneurs struggle to get off the ground everywhere except here.  Innovation elsewhere, including Japan and Korea was/is driven by their largest corporations.  That is now the model that China is following as their large tech manufacturers are only recently getting to that scale.

We also undervalue the things we don't consume.  A massive company like Tencent is ignored by us and has a bigger market cap than Facebook.

I've never seen the British as innovators.  I'd guess China is 2nd on a global scale, and Germany is 3rd right now.  I think China is underestimated on this thread and is being seen through a 20 year old lens.  I also think the current state of technology benefits China as we mostly know where the next great advances will lead, we just need to figure out how to get there.  The "collectivist" mindset is actually beneficial when attempting to achieve a known goal.

Well, no actually, I acknowledged that Chinese firms and individuals find themselves responding to their government more often than a consumer or market demand.  But your point about how strong the consumerism is is quite valid, I think.

[TwiceHorn 31536]

11 minutes ago, TheYoungHorn said:

Gunpowder. 

Paper. 

Printing. 

THE FREAKING COMPASS

Someone googled Chinese innovation.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Great_Inventions

 

It is rather ancient history, though.

 

And, actually, the thread sort of devolved into "innovation," but it's really more about the modern tendency to imitate, which I guess is a flip side of it.

Edited April 23, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[TheYoungHorn 58]

Okay. 

So they have a longer track record of innovation, and cultural export than we can claim as Americans, because their's is much longer. 

Not to discount what American has done in ripping off British invention and really kicking off the Industrial (and now post-industrial) ages. Because we certainly rocked at that. 

It's hard because we have all lived in only a Western-centric, western-dominated world where western-Liberalism has been the hero and engine of the last bit of history, but it would be naive to assume things will stay that way. 

 

[TXLNGHRN10 341]

Tell me more about the $15 pocket knife

[TwiceHorn 31536]

Corollary to all this.  Imitation can be a good thing.  The American IP system encourages it, actually.  But, what we're after, or the policy goal, is not slavish imitation, but imitation with improvement.

Americans are very good at this, indeed.

[TwiceHorn 31536]

2 minutes ago, TXLNGHRN10 said:

Tell me more about the $15 pocket knife

Go to best pocketknife thread. Oh, and another thing that provoked this thread, is when looking up reviews of many of these "copied" knives, a number of posters on knife sites get mad about the copying and say things like "I'd never buy one of those from that ripoff artist."  You see this in other areas, too.  That might be the topic of another thread though.

Edited April 23, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

2 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Corollary to all this.  Imitation can be a good thing.  The American IP system encourages it, actually.  But, what we're after, or the policy goal, is not slavish imitation, but imitation with improvement.

Americans are very good at this, indeed.

Nothing wrong with being a "fast follower".

[RollLeft 5045]

They simply lack vision and see things differently?  

Spoiler

 

[RDCanecutter 26473]

Imagine if the Spanish Empire had managed to crush all of Europe in, say, the 1600s.

We are talking about guys who, in the Americas, had the locals digging up literal mountains of gold and silver, but who barely bothered to build roads to bring it to the ports. Pack mule, good enough for tatarabuelo, good enough forever. Oh, 1,000 bearers perished crossing the Isthmus. Find 1,000 more.

Not a damn thing new would have been invented. Machinery of the Devil!

Every city would have been a pile of ornate masonry, with beggars starving in cold alleyways.

The Beatles would have been in a monastery,  chanting "te amat, sic, sic, sic" except you KNOW Juan Lenon would have burned on an Inquisition pyre. Troublemaker.

This message board would be scratched on a wall behind a bordello, with a street urchin paid 1 medio real per day just to watch out for the guard.

Edited April 23, 2018 by RDCanecutter
I was a pawn of dark forces.