Chinese Manufacturing and Imitation

[El Diablo 4232]

2 hours ago, TheYoungHorn said:

Did I miss the part where y'all talked about China's history of invention and perfecting techniques that spread across the globe and became standards even in pre-modern times.

For example: the white dishes your mom and grandma called "china." 

The literal whole field of porcelain is named after them for a reason, and it isn't because they made crappy, ripped off products. 

And eating utensils. They nailed that one too.

[RDCanecutter 26476]

And paper money. Imagine a stripper's expected life span if you were making it rain with giant stone disks Yap-Island-style, yo.

[Brisketexan 105451]

56 minutes ago, RDCanecutter said:

This message board would be scratched on a wall behind a bordello, with a street urchin paid 1 medio real per day just to watch out for the guard.

So....you're saying it would be higher quality?

[El Diablo 4232]

2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Go to best pocketknife thread. Oh, and another thing that provoked this thread, is when looking up reviews of many of these "copied" knives, a number of posters on knife sites get mad about the copying and say things like "I'd never buy one of those from that ripoff artist."  You see this in other areas, too.  That might be the topic of another thread though.

Musical instruments. They're doing good things. Some people recognize them for what they are, good instruments. Others poo-poo them because "ripoffs".

[El Diablo 4232]

16 minutes ago, RDCanecutter said:

And paper money. Imagine a stripper's expected life span if you were making it rain with giant stone disks Yap-Island-style, yo.

I think in the titters on Yap they tip with fish.

[RDCanecutter 26476]

8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

So....you're saying it would be higher quality?

More Picaresque.

[YChang 3463]

For more modern tech... they’re kinda knocking it out of the park with consumer drones and the AI that runs it.

[jimmyjazz 46251]

4 hours ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Nothing wrong with being a "fast follower".

If you're talking about improvement on existing IP, I don't disagree.  It makes technology better.

What happens in Asia pisses me off, at least when it comes to hardware.  It forces the innovator into a choice between two bad alternatives -- manufacture in the US and see reduced sales because of increased costs, or manufacture in Asia and have your IP stolen.  I hold almost a dozen patents and I cannot tell you how many times I've been in the "should we take MFG to China" meeting.  It's never clearcut.

[Larry T. Spider 1747]

6 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

That culture predates the communists.

Collective cultures like China’s have many advantages. Innovation is not among them.

Individualist cultures like ours have many drawbacks. But they are ripe for innovators. I actually read a good piece recently about how the best innovation and invention occurs when creative types can work alone (as opposed to in a group).

I came here to post almost exactly this. It has to do with collectivist vs individualist cultures. 

[TwiceHorn 31582]

35 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

If you're talking about improvement on existing IP, I don't disagree.  It makes technology better.

What happens in Asia pisses me off, at least when it comes to hardware.  It forces the innovator into a choice between two bad alternatives -- manufacture in the US and see reduced sales because of increased costs, or manufacture in Asia and have your IP stolen.  I hold almost a dozen patents and I cannot tell you how many times I've been in the "should we take MFG to China" meeting.  It's never clearcut.

True enough.  I guess one thing that drives it is that IP protection in China has been virtually non-existent until fairly recently.  And they have most assuredly figured out how to avoid US judgments for patent, trademark or copyright infringement, with the able assistance of the Chinese government, which refuses to recognize or register judgments of foreign courts.

I have had some clients put exclusivity in their Chinese manufacturing contracts (forbidding them from taking products/technology to other buyers) and consent to jurisdiction and venue in US courts and they've been pretty lucky so far and haven't had to test that strategery.  I suspect if push came to shove, they would default in any US litigation and thumb their nose at any attempt to collect a judgment, with the full blessing of the Chinese government.  But, I consider a lot of that to be a different cultural issue, which is near complete disregard for western legal and ethical customs and judicial systems.

[jimmyjazz 46251]

I didn't expect you to be that forthright, but yes, I completely agree with your assessment of the current situation.

[TwiceHorn 31582]

2 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I didn't expect you to be that forthright, but yes, I completely agree with your assessment of the current situation.

My baptism into Chinese copying and business ethics came in the early 90s.  We had a client that sold ornamental Harley parts, things like chrome-plated distributor covers.  There was a company in California that basically invented that whole business, but they didn't do much intellectual property and what they did do, they did poorly.

So our guys had innocently (not intending to infringe anyone's patent, if not exactly punctilious about finding out about them) purchased from a Chinese supplier some of the aforementioned chrome plated distributor cap covers (a thin, shiny piece of metal that went over the distributor on various Harley models).  They cost like $0.50 FOB San Francisco and sold for like $20.  Well, we were comparing our accused part to theirs and the tooling marks on the parts were identical. So these weren't imitations or look-alikes, THEY WERE MADE USING THE SAME TOOLING as the alleged owner's parts.  Later came to find out that the supplier wasn't the same, at least in name, but was owned/operated by the brother-in-law of the guy that ran the owner's supplier.  When the owner quit ordering them temporarily, he lent the tooling out for his BIL to make and sell identical parts.

Since then I have encountered countless examples of innocent infringers purchasing things offered by Chinese suppliers, only to find out that they are covered by a US patent and there is no defense because it is identical to the patentee's product.  It's a fairly common settlement term for the infringer to reveal all the information they possess about their Chinese supplier.

[jimmyjazz 46251]

I know western companies have started to build their own factories over there, but as I understand it, that's not perfect protection, as the government always has some involvement.  I guess the risk is deemed slight enough to justify the reward.

In my world the idea of manufacturing in Mexico is gaining a lot of traction.  The labor costs aren't that disparate any more.

[TwiceHorn 31582]

11 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I know western companies have started to build their own factories over there, but as I understand it, that's not perfect protection, as the government always has some involvement.  I guess the risk is deemed slight enough to justify the reward.

In my world the idea of manufacturing in Mexico is gaining a lot of traction.  The labor costs aren't that disparate any more.

I even know a few Chinese-American, more Chinese (educated there for undergrad at least), attorneys and they have very little understanding, it seems, of what kind of practices Chinese manufacturers employ, as far as who owns and controls what factories, etc..  Part of this is that it's a different China now than when they were there and they were young students at the time and weren't privy to that.  An unspoken part also seems to be either an unstated loyalty to Chinese "business" or a fear of some sort of reprisal or losing access to Chinese connections if they are too candid about what goes on over there.  When you hire a Chinese local counsel for assistance with a Chinese infringer, they are very reticent about discussing the relative roles of government and private business and the ins and outs of all of that, even though they represent you. It's all very mysterious, dare I say inscrutable.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

10 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

I know western companies have started to build their own factories over there, but as I understand it, that's not perfect protection, as the government always has some involvement.  I guess the risk is deemed slight enough to justify the reward.

In my world the idea of manufacturing in Mexico is gaining a lot of traction.  The labor costs aren't that disparate any more.

My former company built several in China. Holy shit...what a mess. The government owns the property and the paperwork to "lease" (read: payoffs) the property is mind bottling. It takes MONTHS just to get in front of the guy who tells you which guy you need to get in front of. Crazy shit.

[TwiceHorn 31582]

4 minutes ago, OatmealRaisinCookie said:

Our factory in China (Nanjing) is the most productive and best regarding line down situations than the shitholes in Juarez and Laredo.

Probably helps when you have dormitories on site and a "security force" that is more geared to keeping the employees in line than protecting them or the premises.

 

[Ldogg53 514]

19 hours ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Much of it is cultural. I've done business in China for many years and had always been astounded by their lack of "entrepreneurial spirit". One evening, I was out with some Chinese colleagues drinking way too much Baijiu and asked why. "Simple", I was informed. "The tallest nail is the one that gets hammered down".  They want to make enough money to be happy, but not enough money to get noticed by the government. Too successful & the government takes over your business or restricts what you can do. Why invest in that?

 

Definitely a lot of this.  But I'd add that the business environment/cultural expectations(non govt) also weigh heavy.  The whole concept of "saving face" is something we simply don't have here.  The US specifically is a lot more of help me out or get out of my way, when it comes to innovation and growth.  In China you're not really supposed to one-up your boss or anyone senior to you.  So while you may be the 26 year old engineer with a great idea, you'll squash it most likely because you can't overstep your bounds.  You will have shown up your boss and he/she won't have that.  Healthy companies in the US embrace innovation and improvement on processes.  People are rewarded for it, including superiors who are able to recognize talent and bring them along to exploit it.  In China it's all about knowing your role and staying in your lane.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

8 minutes ago, Ldogg53 said:

Definitely a lot of this.  But I'd add that the business environment/cultural expectations(non govt) also weigh heavy.  The whole concept of "saving face" is something we simply don't have here.  The US specifically is a lot more of help me out or get out of my way, when it comes to innovation and growth.  In China you're not really supposed to one-up your boss or anyone senior to you.  So while you may be the 26 year old engineer with a great idea, you'll squash it most likely because you can't overstep your bounds.  You will have shown up your boss and he/she won't have that.  Healthy companies in the US embrace innovation and improvement on processes.  People are rewarded for it, including superiors who are able to recognize talent and bring them along to exploit it.  In China it's all about knowing your role and staying in your lane.

100% truth.

[XR4ticlone 122]

23 hours ago, Sbbruin said:

I buy shit on Wish.com all the time.  Because it's so cheap I'd be crazy not to.

How true are the ratings on products?  Can you trust them at all?

[TwiceHorn 31582]

4 minutes ago, Ldogg53 said:

Definitely a lot of this.  But I'd add that the business environment/cultural expectations(non govt) also weigh heavy.  The whole concept of "saving face" is something we simply don't have here.  The US specifically is a lot more of help me out or get out of my way, when it comes to innovation and growth.  In China you're not really supposed to one-up your boss or anyone senior to you.  So while you may be the 26 year old engineer with a great idea, you'll squash it most likely because you can't overstep your bounds.  You will have shown up your boss and he/she won't have that.  Healthy companies in the US embrace innovation and improvement on processes.  People are rewarded for it, including superiors who are able to recognize talent and bring them along to exploit it.  In China it's all about knowing your role and staying in your lane.

I think this is a good statement of the business and "corporate" culture over there, but it still kind of begs the question, why don't the "higher ups" direct people to do more than imitate.

 

In the US, I think a fictitious, but accurate, conversation in a product development segment of a business goes like this:  "Our competitor is selling the crap out of Product X.  We need a product X."  Then their might be consideration of how closely one can imitate Product X, given patent or other IP protection.  Even in the absence of such protection, there seems to be a moral compunction against just straight up copying.  The US competitor is going to change something and probably try to improve on Product X.  And similar conversations take place among several competitors and you get Products Y and Z.

That conversation doesn't seem to take place in China.

[52-80 19271]

This is wishy-washy and a huge generalization, but culturally, copying is seen in some ways as admiration.  Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery and all that...

Also on the pragmatic side, it's just pure cutthroat capitalism.  Why spend $$$ and time on R&D and differentiation when you could just replicate?  

In terms of manufacturing, they (or indeed anyone else) can produce almost anything at any quality.  They're just meeting market demands and specifications, whether that's dictated by Apple or Afghanistan.  If there's a brazillion shittastic bluetooth speakers out on the market... that's just because the market exists for ultracheap shittastic speakers. 

So there's a great irony at play when "Westerners" are lamenting the proliferation of 'cheap' Chinese goods...

 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

12 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

I know western companies have started to build their own factories over there, but as I understand it, that's not perfect protection, as the government always has some involvement.  I guess the risk is deemed slight enough to justify the reward.

In my world the idea of manufacturing in Mexico is gaining a lot of traction.  The labor costs aren't that disparate any more.

This is the answer, make our neighbors  to the south stable thru a burgeoning manufacturing structure, that will hopefully help their (and our economy) and immigration issues.

[TwiceHorn 31582]

22 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

This is wishy-washy and a huge generalization, but culturally, copying is seen in some ways as admiration.  Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery and all that...

Also on the pragmatic side, it's just pure cutthroat capitalism.  Why spend $$$ and time on R&D and differentiation when you could just replicate?  

In terms of manufacturing, they (or indeed anyone else) can produce almost anything at any quality.  They're just meeting market demands and specifications, whether that's dictated by Apple or Afghanistan.  If there's a brazillion shittastic bluetooth speakers out on the market... that's just because the market exists for ultracheap shittastic speakers. 

So there's a great irony at play when "Westerners" are lamenting the proliferation of 'cheap' Chinese goods...

 

Interesting observation.  As I said a couple of times above, kind of elliptically, in the US, absent valid and current IP protection, we are legally free to copy.  But, as any IP lawyer knows, "copying" can be the kiss of death in any IP litigation.  Americans just don't like copyists.  Any US hobby board where Chinese make competitive products is full of complaints and bitching about their copying and what scumbags they are, without any consideration of whether anyone bothered to seek protection for the design, or whether, as is often the case, the patents have expired, injecting their subject matter into the public domain.

And maybe that compunction doesn't exist in Asian cultures.

Curious thing.  Japanese companies file a shit-ton of patents in Japan, but they very rarely seek examination of those patents.  So, what happens is that the patent application is "laid open" or published but never examined and never granted, meaning there will be no enforceable patent on that invention, but it's right there for anyone to copy/steal.  The western interpretation of that is that the Japanese are more interested in receiving "credit" for the invention than obtaining an enforceable right to prevent its appropriation.  It's an invitation to be copied, basically, but at least the inventors and their employers have public "credit" for the invention.  Also has the beneficial effect of keeping others from being able to patent the same or similar things.

Edited April 24, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

6 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

This is the answer, make our neighbors  to the south stable thru a burgeoning manufacturing structure, that will hopefully help their (and our economy) and immigration issues.

Make Mexico great again? 

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

4 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Make Mexico great again? 

Well it has been a long damn time since the Aztecs were in power....

[52-80 19271]

from a consumers point of view the fascinating thing about the internet is that it brings more transparency into the oem/obm/odm world.  with a tiny bit of snooping you can see who does what in the commercial chain.  who produces what.  whos copying whom.  whos rebranding/relabeling it.  you can connect a little closer to the manufacturing.... almost all of which is chinese, of course.

[Sbbruin 21899]

26 minutes ago, XR4ticlone said:

How true are the ratings on products?  Can you trust them at all?

No, and some of the stuff really is crap.  But some is pretty good.  Definite crapshoot.

[XR4ticlone 122]

Just now, Sbbruin said:

No, and some of the stuff really is crap.  But some is pretty good.  Definite crapshoot.

You buy any electronics?  Or just clothes? 

[Sbbruin 21899]

No electronics.  Some clothes (great pair of snowboarding pants for like $20), other small housewares.

 

BTW, I am quite certain a lot of the shit sold through FB ads is just resold Wish shit.  I've ordered a few things from other sellers and it comes packaged in some Chinese packaging a la wish.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Sbbruin

[Ldogg53 514]

25 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I think this is a good statement of the business and "corporate" culture over there, but it still kind of begs the question, why don't the "higher ups" direct people to do more than imitate.

Because they don't get the credit for it.  And it will be seen as a slight against them that they weren't the ones to come up with the innovation. 

[gsoda3 3283]

12 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

When you hire a Chinese local counsel for assistance with a Chinese infringer, they are very reticent about discussing the relative roles of government and private business and the ins and outs of all of that, even though they represent you.

you know exactly why they are reticent.  it was common knowledge we'd have to grease the local wheels of government to get a business running there, but until we went in firsthand we didn't realize how involved the gvt actually were.  it's nuts.  

 

whomever said that we have a blindspot for areas the chinese are innovative leaders is i think correct.  here are a few off the top of my head:

-  surveillance equipment, software, and IP

-  ecommerce, including mobile payment services, cashless transactions, retail, manufacturing, gaming, and data farming.  

-  engineering -  i don't remember how this was worded, but basically they're transforming the way large infrastructure projects are being built. completing huge projects in unbelievably short time frames.   

-  digital medicine - under the radar, but there's been a lot of gvt money spent on RD and VC money has been flowing in to this space.  

 

i'm sure there are more i can't think of right now

[TwiceHorn 31582]

As I said earlier, my intention wasn't really to denigrate Chinese innovation, just to explore the propensity for imitation and less-than-top-quality goods.  And I guess the answer almost always comes back to a collectivist mindset, reinforced by decades of oppressive communism.

 

But, I did kind of lead into the broader question of "innovation," so my bad.

Edited April 24, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[elfenix 34340]

23 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I don't think Korea was this way, but they may have gone straight from very primitive to very high tech, I'm not sure.  But I don't think Korean goods ever had a wide reputation as shoddy:  they went from virtually nonexistent to pretty good.

 

LG used to build shit-tier microwaves.  remember goldstar?  that's them. hyundai and kia cars were shit up until about a decade ago when they made a conscious decision to improve quality (iirc top 3 in actual quality and top 5 in perceived quality). 

Quote

But since most of this was before my time, I can't speak to it the way we generally can with China.  Is there any product from China, like a samurai sword, that is actually "better" than the rest of the world's similar products?  I can't think of any, Chinese lacquer, maybe?  Their military production is almost entirely copies of Sovbloc weaponry.  They don't seem to be able to build a warship, or certainly not a fleet of them. 

 they've been designing/building their own destroyers since the early/mid 90s (though did buy some russian boats when one of their own wasn't ready).  an aircraft carrier may not be within their capability, or it may be that they consider aircraft carriers obsolete or not currently necessary to their goals.  they've had native fighter designs for a couple decades now. 

Edited April 24, 2018 by elfenix

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

22 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

you know exactly why they are reticent.  it was common knowledge we'd have to grease the local wheels of government to get a business running there, but until we went in firsthand we didn't realize how involved the gvt actually were.  it's nuts.  

 

whomever said that we have a blindspot for areas the chinese are innovative leaders is i think correct.  here are a few off the top of my head:

-  surveillance equipment, software, and IP

-  ecommerce, including mobile payment services, cashless transactions, retail, manufacturing, gaming, and data farming.  

-  engineering -  i don't remember how this was worded, but basically they're transforming the way large infrastructure projects are being built. completing huge projects in unbelievably short time frames.   

-  digital medicine - under the radar, but there's been a lot of gvt money spent on RD and VC money has been flowing in to this space.  

 

i'm sure there are more i can't think of right now

I have a lot of suspicions about Chinese construction methods and material quality.

[Reagan1k 3024]

As stated in various ways above, the main driver is how they allocate the use of human capital.  Human capital is not allowed to freelance, and therefore their best and brightest (historically) have focused their attention on reverse engineering (by order) as opposed to innovating. 

It's a self-fulfilling prophesy - capital is dedicated there via fiat and results followed, so further human capital investments flow where they have found success.  Without a cultural and political framework to reward innovation, it is no wonder that their best human capital is continually allocated to this pursuit.

They do have some innovative initiatives, but again , those are focused on things that benefit the regime's goals directly and not the consumer/innovator so we don't see them exposed in free trade on the global markets.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Reagan1k

[chainsaw 9878]

14 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

My baptism into Chinese copying and business ethics came in the early 90s.  We had a client that sold ornamental Harley parts, things like chrome-plated distributor covers.  There was a company in California that basically invented that whole business, but they didn't do much intellectual property and what they did do, they did poorly.

So our guys had innocently (not intending to infringe anyone's patent, if not exactly punctilious about finding out about them) purchased from a Chinese supplier some of the aforementioned chrome plated distributor cap covers (a thin, shiny piece of metal that went over the distributor on various Harley models).  They cost like $0.50 FOB San Francisco and sold for like $20.  Well, we were comparing our accused part to theirs and the tooling marks on the parts were identical. So these weren't imitations or look-alikes, THEY WERE MADE USING THE SAME TOOLING as the alleged owner's parts.  Later came to find out that the supplier wasn't the same, at least in name, but was owned/operated by the brother-in-law of the guy that ran the owner's supplier.  When the owner quit ordering them temporarily, he lent the tooling out for his BIL to make and sell identical parts.

Since then I have encountered countless examples of innocent infringers purchasing things offered by Chinese suppliers, only to find out that they are covered by a US patent and there is no defense because it is identical to the patentee's product.  It's a fairly common settlement term for the infringer to reveal all the information they possess about their Chinese supplier.

Perhaps your client was unaware that these manufacturers like to "play joke."

[TwiceHorn 31582]

9 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I have a lot of suspicions about Chinese construction methods and material quality.

Noooo shit.  Ten year old buildings there look like 80-100 year old buildings in the US.  At least in southern China.  I suppose the humid and polluted atmosphere doesn't help, but is it really any worse than the East Coast around the turn of the century?

[TwiceHorn 31582]

I'm out of rep and have been for a while.  Thanks again for all the insightful comments.

[hayden_horn 11365]

i work in tech, and when i go to trade shows, the americans, and even moreso, the europeans, HATE the chinese vendors. it's beyond obvious that many are there to simply take pictures of competitors' products to take back home to their design facility. it's uncanny.

i still really believe that it's not only communism (as china is the most capitalistic communist country ever), but it's what happened when mao tried to strangle all creative thought out of the country during the cultural revolution. it was done under the guise of removing the evil capitalists, but what it did was encourage people to hide their creativity. much like the civil rights movement, i think the scars are still felt. there are still grannies and grandpas who went through the cultural revolution and learned (and impart to their offspring) that sticking out and being a target is a risk too large.

further, i do think we need to take a look at the one child policy and the ramifications it had on the chinese society as a whole.

but in the end, innovation comes from thinking DIFFERENTLY about a thing. i really think that the scars from the cultural revolution still manifest themselves in the lack of innovation.

[jimmyjazz 46251]

Innovation also comes from not being afraid to make a mistake.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

One key thing that we may be missing in this discussion that I found out the hard way:

We sold some mining equipment (materials, tools, etc) that would vastly improve their down time. One thing we underestimated was the fact that they gave zero shits about improving uptime and saving labor. Saving labor was seen as a negative because the implication was that you'd need less people. "Less people" is a huge negative to a society that wants 100% employment. The "butting of heads" between innovation and the need to keep people employed was real.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

1 minute ago, jimmyjazz said:

Innovation also comes from not being afraid to make a mistake.

And knowing their is a payday at the end of your hard work and risk

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

1 minute ago, jimmyjazz said:

Innovation also comes from not being afraid to make a mistake.

The essence of creativity is failing time and time again and looking for another way.

[hayden_horn 11365]

Just now, jimmyjazz said:

Innovation also comes from not being afraid to make a mistake.

this is a very good point.

there is also a very caste-level age based merit system, which i think has been previously mentioned. you don't get to a senior leadership position until a certain age, and only if you keep your nose clean. very different than in america, where risk is celebrated, even sometimes in failure.

[elfenix 34340]

36 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

-  engineering -  i don't remember how this was worded, but basically they're transforming the way large infrastructure projects are being built. completing huge projects in unbelievably short time frames.  

they probably do it all at once in one go, instead of spreading teams out and having them work on a little bit of something here and there. 

 

what if all the highway contractors in texas worked on the gulf freeway all at once, instead of having one contractor do this bit of 45 while another does a project in austin, another in san antonio, another in dallas, etc.?  then, instead of 5 projects each taking 5 years, maybe you could do 5 projects each taking 1 year. 

[woohorn 1131]

they've had native fighter designs for a couple decades now. 

That is not my understanding :

"Look familiar? China finally unveils its J-20 stealth fighter jet, thought to be based on US war plane plans 'stolen' by hackers"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3888942/Chinese-stealth-fighter-shed-cloak-secrecy.html

[TwiceHorn 31582]

And the previous J-10, which bears a startling resemblance to the Israeli Lavi and the F-16.

[Leeroy Jenkins 2416]

They may have stolen some info for the J-20 but they really don’t understand stealth. I looks like it should be stealthy but from what I have been told it isn’t really.

Talk about copying without really understanding . Look at Russia and their old space shuttle program including how they designed their launch pad.

[Player 4576]

Although they really seem to have stepped up their game lately, if you want your authentic fake Chinese jersey to fit properly, you still gotta take it in to Marco's in the Galleria to have it tailored. 

[Parliament 14344]

The #1 restaurant in Beijing.