Chinese Manufacturing and Imitation

[RDCanecutter 26,473]

On 4/23/2018 at 10:49 AM, Sbbruin said:

I buy shit on Wish.com all the time.  Because it's so cheap I'd be crazy not to.

Just checked it out. Sumbitches selling mountains of counterfeit US coins.

[Sbbruin 21,888]

7 minutes ago, RDCanecutter said:

Just checked it out. Sumbitches selling mountains of counterfeit US coins.

You can by stacks of fake bills for a couple of bucks.  I am certain that's what a lot of those Vic FB posers use.

[El Diablo 4,232]

12 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

You can by stacks of fake bills for a couple of bucks.  I am certain that's what a lot of those Vic FB posers use.

Don't hate the playa.

[Cheeseweasel 26,438]

1 hour ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

They may have stolen some info for the J-20 but they really don’t understand stealth. I looks like it should be stealthy but from what I have been told it isn’t really.

[atomheartbevo 89,799]

On 4/23/2018 at 10:46 AM, F250 said:

I assume part of it has to do with saving a shit ton of time and money by skipping the R&D process in order to close the gap with Western competition. When they eventually catch up they will need to take care if this for themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if they just hired a bunch of Westerners to fill that skill gap. Then we can do to them what they did to us.

In a lot of areas, they will never have to catch up, either because their end customers don't care, or because the product doesn't require it, but they are still hurting Western companies.  LEGO is a pretty good example, and The LEGO Group has been pumping a lot of money into lawyers and/or trying to get the counterfeiters shut down at the border.  Two examples:

 

).

 

These companies are straight up able to skip R&D by directly copying LEGO designs and artwork (and they've started copying fan-made designs).  They don't have to pay licensing fees, and they are pumping out LEGO-clone sets that have long been out of production.

And they are doing it with equipment that the LEGO Group would not use because LEGO's quality control is way too high/expensive for them (seriously, LEGO pieces are made with some insanely precise equipment), so it's cheaper for them up front.

They are doing it at anywhere from half to even a third or a quarter of the price of the original LEGO sets.   

LEGO is lucky though - many fans, particularly adult fans, will not buy the knockoffs because the quality control is not nearly as good, and because of brand loyalty, but there are more than a few who are like "hmmm I can buy this 5-year old Star Wars set for $300 off of eBay, or I can buy it for $25 through Alibaba" (although they run the risk of Customs stopping it at the border

Edited April 25, 2018 by atomheartbevo

[TwiceHorn 31,536]

2 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

In a lot of areas, they will never have to catch up, either because their end customers don't care, or because the product doesn't require it, but they are still hurting Western companies.  LEGO is a pretty good example, and The LEGO Group has been pumping a lot of money into lawyers and/or trying to get the counterfeiters shut down at the border.  Two examples:

  Reveal hidden contents

).

 

These companies are straight up able to skip R&D by directly copying LEGO designs and artwork (and they've started copying fan-made designs).  They don't have to pay licensing fees, and they are pumping out LEGO-clone sets that have long been out of production.

And they are doing it with equipment that the LEGO Group would not use because LEGO's quality control is way too high/expensive for them (seriously, LEGO pieces are made with some insanely precise equipment), so it's cheaper for them up front.

They are doing it at anywhere from half to even a third or a quarter of the price of the original LEGO sets.   

LEGO is lucky though - many fans, particularly adult fans, will not buy the knockoffs because the quality control is not nearly as good, and because of brand loyalty, but there are more than a few who are like "hmmm I can buy this 5-year old Star Wars set for $300 off of eBay, or I can buy it for $25 through Alibaba" (although they run the risk of Customs stopping it at the border

A lot of Lego IP is going to be expired by now, perhaps not on the more recent, specialized sets.  Are these real counterfeits, that is, bearing the Lego trademarks and packaging?

Some Chinese imitation is just sharp competition (expired IP,  unprotected designs/features) and some of it is just dirty, unethical, lawless shit.  Like that.

Edit:  didn't click your spoiler tag.  I see.  Yes those would absolutely be subject to seizure by CBP.

Edited April 25, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[El Diablo 4,232]

When I was a kid we (the family) didn't have LEGO, we had American Building Bricks. They were, surprise, American made plastic building bricks. I don't think anyone at the time thought "Well I wonder who came up with this ingenious toy?". 

[NeverMarryAStripper 21,921]

I thought Legos were swedish

[52-80 19,246]

Danish, actually.  different flavor of scandi

[jimmyjazz 46,130]

10 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Edit:  didn't click your spoiler tag.  I see.  Yes those would absolutely be subject to seizure by CBP.

When does patent infringement become an issue and who is liable?  I was taught "import, offer for sale, sell, or use" as being the actions which constitute infringement.  Is the individual "importing"?  Is it the guy who owns the boat?  The middleman?  

[Washpark 176]

On 4/24/2018 at 10:04 AM, Ldogg53 said:

Definitely a lot of this.  But I'd add that the business environment/cultural expectations(non govt) also weigh heavy.  The whole concept of "saving face" is something we simply don't have here.  The US specifically is a lot more of help me out or get out of my way, when it comes to innovation and growth.  In China you're not really supposed to one-up your boss or anyone senior to you.  So while you may be the 26 year old engineer with a great idea, you'll squash it most likely because you can't overstep your bounds.  You will have shown up your boss and he/she won't have that.  Healthy companies in the US embrace innovation and improvement on processes.  People are rewarded for it, including superiors who are able to recognize talent and bring them along to exploit it.  In China it's all about knowing your role and staying in your lane.

 

On 4/24/2018 at 11:15 AM, gsoda3 said:

you know exactly why they are reticent.  it was common knowledge we'd have to grease the local wheels of government to get a business running there, but until we went in firsthand we didn't realize how involved the gvt actually were.  it's nuts.  

 

whomever said that we have a blindspot for areas the chinese are innovative leaders is i think correct.  here are a few off the top of my head:

-  surveillance equipment, software, and IP

-  ecommerce, including mobile payment services, cashless transactions, retail, manufacturing, gaming, and data farming.  

-  engineering -  i don't remember how this was worded, but basically they're transforming the way large infrastructure projects are being built. completing huge projects in unbelievably short time frames.   

-  digital medicine - under the radar, but there's been a lot of gvt money spent on RD and VC money has been flowing in to this space.  

 

i'm sure there are more i can't think of right now

1234.

China is innovating in many ways that the US is not. I think what has influenced the sentiment expressed here is based on the older generation of Chinese. The younger generation (sub 30) is a lot closer aligned on style and approach to the Valley and Millennial in the US. I actually think younger Chinese have more hustle and drive than Americans of comparable age.

The ethical and cultural difference I would argue is more generational driven than people realize but I am not under estimating how government has influence behaviors.

Source: I work for a Chinese start-up

Edited April 26, 2018 by Washpark

[TwiceHorn 31,536]

On 4/25/2018 at 9:00 AM, jimmyjazz said:

When does patent infringement become an issue and who is liable?  I was taught "import, offer for sale, sell, or use" as being the actions which constitute infringement.  Is the individual "importing"?  Is it the guy who owns the boat?  The middleman?  

Good question.  Can get pretty sticky at times.  But generally, it has to hit US shores to be importing.  The addition of "importing" to the statute didn't add much, other than to perhaps capture an incident where the "sale" (most goods that are imported are sold, so why imported) is extraterritorial (ie between non-US parties), but the ultimate destination of the infringing product is the US (where "use" becomes an issue, as well) or some other reason that a product is "imported" but not sold and possibly to shift or extend liability onto the importer if that entity is not the seller or user.

In the real world, you try to find bills of lading for imported infringing goods and you sue the shipper and the receiver.  In the Chinese case, the shipper might contest personal jurisdiction, but most often just defaults by not answering and proverbial "thumbing of nose" at US courts.

You did leave off "make," which is among the more important rights secured by patent.

I would guess that whatever utility patents Lego had are long expired, they may have some design patents on some things, like the ones Atom posted.  The customs seizure is most likely and most useful for those items bearing infringing trademarks ("counterfeits") because it doesn't take a lot of analysis by skilled legal minds to say that those packages infringe Lego's trademarks, for example.  In rarer cases, you can get them to seize patented goods, as well, in particular after an ITC exclusion order, but also based on district court judgments.  It can be harder to effectuate because customs has to be convinced that the goods in question actually infringe.

[TwiceHorn 31,536]

16 minutes ago, Washpark said:

 

1234.

China is innovating in many ways that the US is not. I think what a lot of sentiment expressed and based on the older generation of Chinese. The younger generation (sub 30) is a lot closer aligned on style and approach as the Valley and Millennial in the US. I actually think younger Chinese have more hustle and drive than Americans of comparable age.

Source: I work for a Chinese start-up

In doing some casual research on "collectivism" and collectivist societies provoked by this thread, it did note that younger Chinese are largely rejecting the collectivist ideas of their forebears and that it is becoming a more individualistic society.

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

40 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

In doing some casual research on "collectivism" and collectivist societies provoked by this thread, it did note that younger Chinese are largely rejecting the collectivist ideas of their forebears and that it is becoming a more individualistic society.

So yer saying they want their kids to get the GI Joes with the Kung fu grip, and have a wife that wants to fuck 'em ?

[Cheeseweasel 26,438]

30 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

So yer saying they want their kids to get the GI Joes with the Kung fu grip, and have a wife that wants to fuck 'em ?

Goony goo goo, gus.

[TwiceHorn 31,536]

48 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

So yer saying they want their kids to get the GI Joes with the Kung fu grip, and have a wife that wants to fuck 'em ?

Big Jim, IMO.

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

54 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Goony goo goo, gus.

Billy Ray Valentine begs to differ......

[atomheartbevo 89,799]

4 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

So yer saying they want their kids to get the GI Joes with the Kung fu grip, and have a wife that wants to fuck 'em ?

I would order counterfeit G I Joes for my kid.  New Joe figures are limited edition and running $50 or more. 

Also, LEGO did win a major lawsuit in China against two Chinese companies back in December. 

http://www.businessinsider.com/r-toymaker-lego-wins-chinese-copyright-case-against-brick-imitators-2017-12

[Cheeseweasel 26,438]

Good luck collecting...

[TwiceHorn 31,536]

I think mostly to get the US and WTO off their backs, China is at least making some of the right noises about having enforceable patents and other IP there.  Until about 10-15 years ago, a Chinese patent was regarded as a complete waste of time.  No longer true.

Quite a few US companies with Chinese subsidiaries or manufacturing affiliates have won judgments in China.  http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2016/11/10/china-increasingly-preferred-venue-patent-litigation/id=74585/  An unstated key to it seems to be having a presence in China such that there is an actual Chinese interest in awarding the judgment and it seems vital to present Chinese witnesses testifying to Chinese damage/injury, not just far-off roundeyes.

And, for most aggrieved IP holders, an injunction against further manufacture and sale is really the grail.  Damages are icing on the cake.  That used to be the conventional wisdom until the troll phenomenon got working and fucked up patent law.  Still, I imagine a domestic Chinese patent infringement judgment is collectible.  It's non-Chinese judgments that aren't.

Edited May 4, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[686 3,451]

On 4/24/2018 at 11:38 AM, Onboard 2.0 said:

I have a lot of suspicions about Chinese construction methods and material quality.

A consistent theme I see in Chinese QC'ed construction/manufacturing is the impetus to remove most of the safety/service factor from the design. Things they make are frequently "just good enough" to nominally "work", but they fail very quickly under stress in comparison to comparable goods from elsewhere. In the manufacturing industry I'm in, every time someone tries to source something from China (without setting up a QC operation over there) it blows up in their face because the goods either end up not meeting the performance specs or don't last through the warranty.

Here's a good case study from about 10 years ago on the construction side. Nominally reinforced hollow pile foundation on marginal soil.  Excavated on one side of the building for a garage, piled the dirt on the other side.  Then it rained and the piles snapped like twigs. All to save maybe $50k of additional concrete and steel on a ~$10M+ building.

Everybody has their share of fuck ups like the FIU bridge, etc.; but I wonder if the Chinese have been building trillions of dollars of "hollowed out" infrastructure that is going to crumble fast. Over 10,000 students died in the earthquake about 10 years ago due to shoddily built schools. Fucking heartbreaking for a lot of good people. 

 

 

 

[686 3,451]

I would also add traditional Chinese medicine to the list of Historical Chinese innovations. I haven’t seen the data, but I’ve heard that more people believe in traditional Chinese medicine than believe in the Bible. Seems like kind of a big deal.

Edited May 4, 2018 by 686

[wild_turkey 3,182]

On 4/23/2018 at 8:47 AM, TwiceHorn said:

But, even with westerners teaching them quality control and quality manufacturing techniques (or rejecting products by the metric shit ton), a lot of products made in China without western supervision remained junk.  Until fairly recently.  Finally, it seems that Chinese manufacturers are turning out pretty pretty good stuff on their own and not necessarily intended for western markets.  Whatever your field or interest (knives, guns, bicycles, computers, etc.), I think you can come up with a few examples of high-quality, low-cost Chinese products that are making inroads (this post was provoked by a $15 pocketknife that rivals US-branded and made knives that sell for north of $100).

So good for China I guess. 

Interesting thread and a lot of insightful responses. Just chiming in because I respectfully disagree with the part above.

I buy a lot of stuff online and I’m becoming increasingly frustrated with the prevalence of low quality shit that’s flooded the market. If I buy from certain stores, like clothing stores or directly from reputable brands, then I trust their quality or whatever country they decide to manufacture products in. The problem is when I get on Amazon or Google and look for random one-off products and the top results are obscure brands. For instance, I look for bed sheets and the top results have 10,000 positive reviews (are those even real?) and there’s 10 very similar products with eerily similar reviews. I needed a new faucet for a sink and same deal. I can’t trust the major online markets and I turn to traditional retailers instead. My wife has bought clothes and stuff from websites that look decent, only to have products arrive that were obviously low quality, likely a result of drop-shippers marketing absolute shit products through an online storefront.

So yes, there can be good products from China, like the pocketknife example. However, I think these good products get lost amidst a sea of terrible stuff, and that makes me leery of buying from a lot of online sources due to the possibility of getting a Chinese product of low quality.

[ousuxndallas 65]

100% this. I traveled extensively to China for 4 years, and agree with this sentiment from the Chinese.

Much of it is cultural. I've done business in China for many years and had always been astounded by their lack of "entrepreneurial spirit". One evening, I was out with some Chinese colleagues drinking way too much Baijiu and asked why. "Simple", I was informed. "The tallest nail is the one that gets hammered down".  They want to make enough money to be happy, but not enough money to get noticed by the government. Too successful & the government takes over your business or restricts what you can do. Why invest in that?
 

[ousuxndallas 65]

Fun Fact: in China, once a set of architectural plans are approved, they make ONE guy sign his name as the architect on record. If a building fails because of poor design, he is never heard from again.

A consistent theme I see in Chinese QC'ed construction/manufacturing is the impetus to remove most of the safety/service factor from the design. Things they make are frequently "just good enough" to nominally "work", but they fail very quickly under stress in comparison to comparable goods from elsewhere. In the manufacturing industry I'm in, every time someone tries to source something from China (without setting up a QC operation over there) it blows up in their face because the goods either end up not meeting the performance specs or don't last through the warranty.
Here's a good case study from about 10 years ago on the construction side. Nominally reinforced hollow pile foundation on marginal soil.  Excavated on one side of the building for a garage, piled the dirt on the other side.  Then it rained and the piles snapped like twigs. All to save maybe $50k of additional concrete and steel on a ~$10M+ building.
Everybody has their share of fuck ups like the FIU bridge, etc.; but I wonder if the Chinese have been building trillions of dollars of "hollowed out" infrastructure that is going to crumble fast. Over 10,000 students died in the earthquake about 10 years ago due to shoddily built schools. Fucking heartbreaking for a lot of good people. 
 

 
 

[TwiceHorn 31,536]

11 hours ago, wild_turkey said:

Interesting thread and a lot of insightful responses. Just chiming in because I respectfully disagree with the part above.

I buy a lot of stuff online and I’m becoming increasingly frustrated with the prevalence of low quality shit that’s flooded the market. If I buy from certain stores, like clothing stores or directly from reputable brands, then I trust their quality or whatever country they decide to manufacture products in. The problem is when I get on Amazon or Google and look for random one-off products and the top results are obscure brands. For instance, I look for bed sheets and the top results have 10,000 positive reviews (are those even real?) and there’s 10 very similar products with eerily similar reviews. I needed a new faucet for a sink and same deal. I can’t trust the major online markets and I turn to traditional retailers instead. My wife has bought clothes and stuff from websites that look decent, only to have products arrive that were obviously low quality, likely a result of drop-shippers marketing absolute shit products through an online storefront.

So yes, there can be good products from China, like the pocketknife example. However, I think these good products get lost amidst a sea of terrible stuff, and that makes me leery of buying from a lot of online sources due to the possibility of getting a Chinese product of low quality.

Well, again, it isn't ubiquitous.  Chinese, left to their own devices, produce junk nine times out of ten.  But in industries where westerners have had products made in China, they have learned some lessons about how to manufacture quality products.  Whether they actually implement those lessons is another question.  So yes, there is a lot of junk out there.  And one has to be careful with Amazon these days, as they are a "front" for a lot of questionable manufacturers.  

[nycHorn 3,041]

Oh, so, like, you're saying someone else invented delicious spicy General Tso's chicken BEFORE the Chinese?
I'm not falling for your lies, mister.

Wait, that’s not a Wan Fu (oltorf obviously) original???