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2021 Hall of Fame thread

Beau Vine

By Beau Vine
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Guest Lobo

Guest Lobo

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1 hour ago, Helobious said:

Hadn’t heard LaTroy Hawkins name in forever, damn. 
 

Thats a ballot list I can get behind. I’ve heard of every single one of those players. Mine would be Bonds, Clemens, Sheffield, Pettitte, Jones

Yeah, did not realize Hawkins played 21 years in the show.  Damn impressive, even for a setup man.  Man is 21 years in the show and just 3 years older than me, crazy to think about.  

I honestly have zero recollection of the name Michael Cuddyer.  i hope Vizquel gets his due at SS, otherwise...we'll see what the 10 year deadline has to say on some of these guys.  Will let the baseball gods take their course.  One thing seems for certain, no threat of any first time balloters making it in this time around.  

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Wulaw Horn

Wulaw Horn 19563

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On 11/16/2020 at 12:51 PM, Beau Vine said:

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Bonds, Clemens, Schilling, Andruw for me definitely.  Still waffling on Wagner.

Bonds, Clemens, Helton, Jones, Kent, Ramirez, Rolen, schilling, Sosa, Vizquel

You can only vote for 10 so I left Sheffield off. The HOF is criminally small for modern players compared to past players. I support the idea of a 2-3% of player HOF like it more or less was for guys playing from the 50’s-70’s. 
Jones and Vizquel were the best I ever saw defensively at premier defensive positions (too young to really appreciate the Wizard), Rolens numbers compare favorably with the third basemen who are in already. As for Bonds, Clemens and Manny those guys were cheaters in an era where it’s quite possible everyone cheated- don’t care- put them in. 
Schilling isn’t a GOAT or anything but it’s the HOF and he’s super relevant as one of the premier big game pitchers of his era with some great regular season numbers. Pettite just was not close enough for me in the regular season to let his post season stats sway me. 
a HOF without a guy who hit 60 Hr 4 times seems kind of silly to me- he’s not as good as the other steroid guys I mentioned but good enough to be in the hall. 
Todd Helton probably getting playing good in Coors held against him but I haven’t done a deep dive on his numbers or anything. 
If you are a small hall guy you probably hate this post and that’s fine. 

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Guest Lobo

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1 hour ago, NOMAAA said:

 

Yeah, no idea why those guys are on that ballot.  Swisher had 10 full seasons.  If he hadn't had a few good years with the Yankees, no way he'd be on that list.  First Baseman with a serious strikeout problem that does not balance itself out with great power and he hits .248 for a career at that "Bat" position.  It's a fucking disgrace to the rest of the ballot that he's on there.  And oh yeah, fuck the Yankees.  

To others' point, you don't want the Hall selection to turn into a "well, compared to other guys at his position...he deserves to be in there" as a hard stop criteria.  But the fucking Hall has brought this on themselves.  Based on that Rolen, Helton, and Vizquel need to be in.  It's time.  I'll leave the steroid debates, as always, to y'all.  

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Guest Lobo

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Forgot about that rule.  Not sure about the requirements for a "full" season particularly when it comes to starting pitchers v. relief pitchers. 

Hope y'all get some Astros in this next class.  I'm not totally sold on Wagner, but if guys like Rollie Fingers and Bruce Sutter can get in as closers, Billy sure as shit deserves it.  Sutter barely played 10 full seasons.  I'll give Rollie some credit for longevity and setting the benchmark for the 2-inning save of the era.  

If they can let in people who never heard of the Dominican Republic, let alone played against people from there...I guess we can let a few years of heavy drug use slide by...

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Pato del Muerto

Pato del Muerto 53371

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Kind of a light year. Mostly steroid omissions and borderline guys. 
 

Besides the obvious ones, I imagine a good case could be made for rolen, Kent, and Helton. Unsure about abreu and don’t feel like looking over his stats page. 
 

the pitchers, I just don’t know anymore with the specialization.  

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cafe society

cafe society 2903

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Okay, serious this time.  
Bonds, Clemens, Jones, Kent (I've been swayed that his offense at 2B is enough to overcome his lackluster fielding), Rolen (not sure why he isn't a slam dunk - look at his numbers), Schilling, Sheffield (they let fucking Jim Rice and Harold Baines in, FFS!) and Wagner (Trevor Hoffman is in and Wagner was light years superior).

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Guest Lobo

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I fucking hate Rolen, but he's as deserving as all but maybe 6 or 7 third basemen of all time.  He deserves it next year, if not this one.  Only real question is does he go in as a Cardinal or as a Philly?  

To the point above, I'm confused on Sheffield.  He did grind it out and hit some key benchmarks after 22 seasons.  I really honestly don't know---was he heavily implicated in the steroid shit or what?  I remember him being tossed into the mix but nothing terribly serious.  But yeah, if Baines gets in, why not Sheffield?  

And I know the Hall ain't this simple, and I'm only pulling for Astros because the fans I've gotten to know since moving to Texas love the game for all the right reasons, but if Bruce Fucking Sutter gets to be in the Hall of Fame-------Billy Wagner gets to be in the Hall of Fame.  Sorry.  I know you voters weren't expecting closers to be a fucking thing after the 1980's...but if that's your position----how the fuck did Rivera become the only guy to get every fucking vote ever?  Wagner and Sutter's 10 filthy seasons are almost identical in every cross-generational aspect.  You don't have to start putting in every guy with 300 saves, but look at Wagner...that's a different class of closer.  That's a guy with stuff better than everyone in the HOF at his "specialty" other than maybe 3-5 guys.  You gonna tell me Hoyt Wilhelm was more dominant, or that Gossage would still be in the HOF had he worn that fucking Padres uniform longer than he'd worn those Pinstripes?  /rant

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dcar00

dcar00 14909

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On 11/24/2020 at 6:46 PM, Lobo said:

I fucking hate Rolen, but he's as deserving as all but maybe 6 or 7 third basemen of all time.  He deserves it next year, if not this one.  Only real question is does he go in as a Cardinal or as a Philly?  

To the point above, I'm confused on Sheffield.  He did grind it out and hit some key benchmarks after 22 seasons.  I really honestly don't know---was he heavily implicated in the steroid shit or what?  I remember him being tossed into the mix but nothing terribly serious.  But yeah, if Baines gets in, why not Sheffield?  

And I know the Hall ain't this simple, and I'm only pulling for Astros because the fans I've gotten to know since moving to Texas love the game for all the right reasons, but if Bruce Fucking Sutter gets to be in the Hall of Fame-------Billy Wagner gets to be in the Hall of Fame.  Sorry.  I know you voters weren't expecting closers to be a fucking thing after the 1980's...but if that's your position----how the fuck did Rivera become the only guy to get every fucking vote ever?  Wagner and Sutter's 10 filthy seasons are almost identical in every cross-generational aspect.  You don't have to start putting in every guy with 300 saves, but look at Wagner...that's a different class of closer.  That's a guy with stuff better than everyone in the HOF at his "specialty" other than maybe 3-5 guys.  You gonna tell me Hoyt Wilhelm was more dominant, or that Gossage would still be in the HOF had he worn that fucking Padres uniform longer than he'd worn those Pinstripes?  /rant

the advent of the one inning closer is the problem. Rivera was a joke to be the first 100% guy.  Guys got saves before pitching 2-3 and sometimes 4 innings.  not just one.

to me they are like punters and kickers in football

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Hank Chinaski

Hank Chinaski 6346

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On 11/24/2020 at 5:46 PM, Lobo said:

To the point above, I'm confused on Sheffield.  He did grind it out and hit some key benchmarks after 22 seasons.  I really honestly don't know---was he heavily implicated in the steroid shit or what?  I remember him being tossed into the mix but nothing terribly serious.  But yeah, if Baines gets in, why not Sheffield?  

Yeah, he admitted to using PEDs with Bonds. I think he tried to claim Bonds tricked him into it or some such bullshit (I may be wrong about this, was an SI article almost 20 years ago). 

Sheffield was a brilliant hitter - about 40% better than league-average over his career, which is HOF-worthy. Per B-R, his top 3 offensive comps over his career are Chipper Jones, Mel Ott and Reggie Jackson. He was a bad defensive player, and he wasn't particularly well-liked (I don't think this should matter). 

His problem is the steroid thing...how do you justify voting for him but not Bonds or Clemens? 

I think it's a bit silly, particularly for guys who never tested positive or were suspended for PED use, because nobody will ever know who used or who didn't and for how long and to what degree it affected performance, etc. And some people don't care, which is also fine. 

But with the steroid stain, I don't see how he is a realistic candidate until Bonds is in. 

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cafe society

cafe society 2903

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On 11/27/2020 at 10:59 AM, Hank Chinaski said:

Yeah, he admitted to using PEDs with Bonds. I think he tried to claim Bonds tricked him into it or some such bullshit (I may be wrong about this, was an SI article almost 20 years ago). 

Sheffield was a brilliant hitter - about 40% better than league-average over his career, which is HOF-worthy. Per B-R, his top 3 offensive comps over his career are Chipper Jones, Mel Ott and Reggie Jackson. He was a bad defensive player, and he wasn't particularly well-liked (I don't think this should matter). 

His problem is the steroid thing...how do you justify voting for him but not Bonds or Clemens? 

I think it's a bit silly, particularly for guys who never tested positive or were suspended for PED use, because nobody will ever know who used or who didn't and for how long and to what degree it affected performance, etc. And some people don't care, which is also fine. 

But with the steroid stain, I don't see how he is a realistic candidate until Bonds is in. 

Keith Moreland said Sheffield was a great teammate and that Tony Gwynn was a selfish one, FWIW.  

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Guest Lobo

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I'm quite sure Moreland thought Sheffield was a great teammate, considering they never played on the same team together.  

I never played with Ty Cobb and as such, I think the man was a fucking Saint.  

But to your point, Moreland was a season vet by the time he spent a year in San Diego so I do trust his opinion on Gwynn.  

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dcar00

dcar00 14909

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On 11/27/2020 at 9:19 AM, shadow_operative said:

yeah i think we all have some love and respect y for Mo, but what a joke it is that he's the first 100% guy ever. 

agreed that he was dominant for a long time in his role but its a 15 pitch outing.  he deserves to be in the hall but first unanimous, over Griffey Jr.?   whatever...

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Pato del Muerto

Pato del Muerto 53371

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4 hours ago, dcar00 said:

agreed that he was dominant for a long time in his role but its a 15 pitch outing.  he deserves to be in the hall but first unanimous, over Griffey Jr.?   whatever...

How many long time Yankees and only Yankees are left to elect?  The league is so transient now that few players are associated with just one team.  He gave them the opportunity to give that honor to a 20 year, 1 team, pinstripe wearer and they took it. 

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Hank Chinaski

Hank Chinaski 6346

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5 hours ago, cochamps said:

I’d like to see McGriff in.  Atlanta would have never made it without him.  Hit a lot of HRs & never heard him linked to steroids.

Yeah I always liked McGriff. The problem is that he was one-dimensional and played in a heavy-offense era, so his WAR numbers aren't quite HOF-worthy. He also never had a dominant/MVP season. He was really good in the postseason (.303/.385/.532 in 50 games). 

FWIW, his top-2 similar batters per B-R are McCovey and Stargell, which sounds about right. Difference is, both of those guys won an MVP and had multiple top-5 finishes. McGriff finished 4th in voting in 1993, and that was the only time he finished in the top 5. 

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cochamps

cochamps 1885

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Well, I certainly don’t want to go where others on this thread have gone using Harold fucking Baines as the benchmark.  Just because the Veterans (or whatever they call them now) let in an unqualified player like him, that should not be an excuse to let in more unqualifieds.

BTW, I always thought McGriff was pretty good defensively albeit at a non-premium position.  I don’t think defensive metrics are nearly as good as offensive ones & that is one reason that I think WAR is somewhat over rated.  OT for sure now, but I think catchers are under valued in WAR.

 

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Guest Lobo

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I still think it's a lot about how you wear your cap in baseball that determines whether or not you get into the Hall of Fame.  Griffey turns his cap around and smiles, boom---at the time of election, highest voting percentage ever.   McGriff wears his hat two sizes too small and lets it just on top of his long head...not elected after ten years.  Junk pitchers like Al Spalding, Hoss Radbourn, or John Clarkson.  Not particularly dominant stuff but they prove that if you wear a child's size painter's cap with short brim and grow out a serious mustache, you too can make the Hall of Fame via Veteran's Committee.  Provided you're willing to hurl 450 innings per season.  

Would be cool to get a Longhorn in the HoF finally.  

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The Dog

The Dog 44794

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On 11/27/2020 at 9:19 AM, shadow_operative said:

yeah i think we all have some love and respect y for Mo, but what a joke it is that he's the first 100% guy ever. 

I think that's the whole reason he was the first - nobody really talked about him and it was just assumed he'd get in, and nobody was grandstanding by leaving him off the ballot. 

Several were "more deserving" but because everyone talked about it you had some wannabe "defenders of the game" who thought NOBODY WAS WORTH A UNANIMOUS VOTE who would leave that player off the ballot. There wasn't any discussion about Rivera being that so nobody thought to leave him off and so he got to be the first. 

Hopefully now that we've popped that cherry these idiots will just vote for those who belong and not leave an obvious HOF candidate off their ballot just to screw them out of 100% anymore. 

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Trey3216

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14 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

what about this is confusing to you?

So you think only Ichiro was worthy of unanimous induction, and we should wait 4 more years for it to happen?  I mean, there’s multiple questions involved in your reasoning.   Did you think he was gonna get inducted this year? Unanimously?   What’s your sell?    Ichiro should not have been the first unanimous, though he damn sure should be unanimous.  Hell, Bonds should be unanimous without question.   The feckless micro-dick habits of the HOF voters is beyond laughable.   Bonds could’ve hung it up in ‘98 (well-acknowledged he didn’t participate in the side game prior) and would’ve been a 1st ballot HOFer.   

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shadow_operative

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and yeah, to answer your bafflingly angry,  belligerent, long-winded question, yes, i would have liked to have seen Ichiro be the first unanimous vote into the HoF since it wasn't Griffey, which it should have been. I thought i was pretty clear about that when i said it the first time. As for why you keep angrily bringing up when he retired/when he's eligible for induction, i guess only you would know that. 

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Guest Lobo

Guest Lobo

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No, almost everybody knows (including my wife) that you have to be out of the game for awhile before you're eligible to be voted upon.  Ichiro certainly deserves to be a first ballot guy, but not unanimous.  If that's the debate you're looking for.  

Also, is Trey3216---the poster formerly known as Derka?  I can't keep up with current poster names, how the hell do y'all know who certain posters used to be?  Mind bottled...

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