2021 Hall of Fame thread

[Guest Lobo]

Yeah, Koufax will always be that outlying enigma to me.  Has an "solid" career going from 1955-1962.  Good, but not great.  Two all-star appearances.  Sure he was still young, but it wasn't uncommon for guys his age to be a 1 or 2 starter, hurling 300 IP/season.  And he was still milling about a #3/4-type starter, with a 68-60 record to that point with 2 all-star selections and no Cy Young votes in 8 seasons.  Again, not bad...but not even in the remotest of discussions about a HOF type of trajectory.  If he goes on like that, he gets his number retired at Dodger Stadium and that's probably about it for his name.   

But from 1963-1966, he throws the best four consecutive seasons in the history of the game.  And for that he gets to Cooperstown.  I'm still more of a longevity guy, great production year in and year out for 15+ years.  But Koufax remains the most evident exception to that rule and I'm fine with it.  He wasn't the best pitcher of his half-decade, he was way beyond that.  He offered a glimpse into what the game could be with the right person throwing the ball into play.  But it was all over almost as soon as it began.  Again, he was good from '55-'62.  But he was other-worldly from '63-'66 and the writers decided to capture that lightning in a bottle before anybody could protest.  /rant

Okay, what time these announcements getting made about this class?  Schilling has a drunken, race-fueled, twitter rage to get to.  

Edited January 26, 2021 by Lobo

[Wulaw Horn 19063]

26 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

I’m a proponent of rolen getting in, but a related question is at what point do injuries get excused in the minds of the voters?

or even early retirement?

tony canigliaro, jose Fernandez. They aren’t getting in based on how well they did when they weren’t injured. Both are extreme cases obviously as opposed to being injured often and recovering.

a guy like Koufax quit the game after a relatively short career, but he was so good that it didn’t matter. Maybe there’s other examples of guys voluntarily retiring in their late 20s or early 30s that didn’t give themselves the years to stack cumulative stats?  How have, or would, those kind of guys get adjudicated by the writers?  Some guy shows up, hits .300 with 233 hr (or the similar advanced stats of your choice like 42 war) over 6 seasons, then abruptly retires for whatever reason. 
does that guy get in?  Has that guy existed?

The only (I believe) qualification for the HOF is must have appeared in 10 seasons, so no- tour guy in that scenario won’t get in.  He’s not even eligible. 

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

14 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

IMO, you have to have a solid 8-10 years as being one of the top 2 at your position.

Munson?

[Pato del Muerto 52484]

11 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

The only (I believe) qualification for the HOF is must have appeared in 10 seasons, so no- tour guy in that scenario won’t get in.  He’s not even eligible. 

I see that this is correct.  Probably not worth thinking about a hypothetical guy that had 6 hof years and 4 years where he barely played. 

[Guest Lobo]

26 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Munson?

Boy, they really Munson'd that vote.  

I always thought the veterans committee would eventually put him in, but no dice I guess.  Puckett got in with "just" 11 good seasons.  Always gonna be a few outliers, they kinda make the hall interesting.  Doesn't stop the reckoning they still haven't made peace with.  A large group of steroid guys are still gonna be eligible.  They've had 50 fucking years to figure out the DH is a real thing that isn't going away, as are relief pitchers.  And there's been baseball in Denver for 25 years, get over the altitude issue or ban 'em all.  And oh yeah, the Pete Rose thing.  

[dcar00 14147]

34 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Munson?

besides the obvious, Munson had the unfortunate situation of playing during one of the best eras for catchers, Bench, Fisk, Carter, and now Simmons.

He's similar to a guy like Jackie Jensen.

I always thought the yankee cap might get Munson in but his power numbers were never all that great sans a couple of seasons.  He was very very good defensively.  interestingly, Simmons getting in might cause a push for Munson.  not sure if he is still eligible for one of the veterans committees.

If he had been hitting 25-30 home runs for 7 or 8 years he's in.  he averaged 10

Edited January 26, 2021 by dcar00

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

1 minute ago, Lobo said:

I always thought the veterans committee would eventually put him in, but no dice I guess. 

Same

[dcar00 14147]

41 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Yeah, Koufax will always be that outlying enigma to me.  Has an "solid" career going from 1955-1962.  Good, but not great.  Two all-star appearances.  Sure he was still young, but it wasn't uncommon for guys his age to be a 1 or 2 starter, hurling 300 IP/season.  And he was still milling about a #3/4-type starter, with a 68-60 record to that point with 2 all-star selections and no Cy Young votes in 8 seasons.  Again, not bad...but not even in the remotest of discussions about a HOF type of trajectory.  If he goes on like that, he gets his number retired at Dodger Stadium and that's probably about it for his name.   

But from 1963-1966, he throws the best four consecutive seasons in the history of the game.  And for that he gets to Cooperstown.  I'm still more of a longevity guy, great production year in and year out for 15+ years.  But Koufax remains the most evident exception to that rule and I'm fine with it.  He wasn't the best pitcher of his half-decade, he was way beyond that.  He offered a glimpse into what the game could be with the right person throwing the ball into play.  But it was all over almost as soon as it began.  Again, he was good from '55-'62.  But he was other-worldly from '63-'66 and the writers decided to capture that lightning in a bottle before anybody could protest.  /rant

Okay, what time these announcements getting made about this class?  Schilling has a drunken, race-fueled, twitter rage to get to.  

I wouldn't even call 55-61 years solid. I would say slightly below average even his era was over 4.00.   62 he put it together.  his walk to SO ratio started to go down significantly.

[dcar00 14147]

Schilling should be in but he won't get in.

[Beau Vine 54203]

JoePos's #1 HOF Outsider:

Quote

This offseason, leading right up to the 2021 Baseball Hall of Fame announcement, we’re counting down the 100 greatest eligible players not in the Hall of Fame and ranking them in the order in which I would vote them in. Each player will receive a Hall of Fame plaque based on the pithy ones that the Hall used to use back at the start. Topping our list is Minnie Miñoso.

Saturnino Orestes Armas (Minnie) Miñoso Arrieta
New York Cubans—Cleveland—Chicago White Sox—St. Louis—Washington, 1946-1980
One of the great outfielders of the 1950s, the Cuban Comet combined power, speed and great defense. First Black player to play in Chicago. Roberto Clemente’s hero. “He was the Jackie Robinson for all Latinos,” Orlando Cepeda said. Played in the Major Leagues in five different decades.

Minnie Miñoso?

Yes, that’s right. Minnie Miñoso.

He is, in my mind, the biggest void in the Baseball Hall of Fame. It is, quite frankly, shocking and appalling that he was not elected while he was alive. And while you can make powerful arguments why Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens or Pete Rose or Shoeless Joe Jackson do not have a place in the Hall of Fame, no such arguments exist for Miñoso. He was a great player, a pioneer and a powerful force for good within the game.

Every day that he is not in the Hall is a day that the Hall of Fame itself is diminished.

Miñoso did not become a regular in the Major Leagues until he was 25 years old (or 28 — his birth date has been much debated). That was the year he joined the Chicago White Sox and became the first Black player to play in Chicago. At that point, only Cleveland in the American League had integrated. (The St. Louis Browns briefly integrated in ’47 but quickly got rid of their two Black players and returned to being all-White.)

The integration of baseball in Chicago is an under-told and enormously important story. Chicago was the second-biggest city in America and one of the centers of African American life. More than a half-million African Americans moved to Chicago during the Great Migration, and Chicago was in many ways the very heart of the Negro Leagues — it was, for example, where the East-West All-Star Game was played every year. Miñoso was the starting third baseman in the East-West game in 1947 and 1948 before he was signed by Cleveland.*

*It was actually Abe Saperstein, founder of the Harlem Globetrotters, who recommended Miñoso to Cleveland. He came to scout a pitcher named José Santiago, who would briefly pitch for Cleveland in the mid-50s. But Santiago, who was from Puerto Rico, kept talking about his Cuban teammate Miñoso. He said that Miñoso had tried out for the Cardinals, but it would be another six years before the team would sign a Black player. Saperstein watched Miñoso play and immediately included him in his report to Cleveland’s Bill Veeck, who signed both players.

Miñoso was almost certainly Major-League ready when Cleveland signed him, but Cleveland had a powerhouse team — they were defending World Series champions in ’49 — and there wasn’t anywhere to play him. They sent Miñoso to Triple-A San Diego, where he hit .297 with power and speed. Nothing changed by 1950, so they sent Miñoso back to San Diego, where this time he hit .339 with more power and more speed.

Then in ’51, Cleveland still didn’t have anyplace to play Miñoso — but the trade market was, shall we say, limited because no other team in the American League had a Black player. The White Sox were the team closest to integrating — former Negro Leagues stars Bob Boyd and Sam Hairston had impressed the team during spring training and were assumed to be called up at some point — and so Cleveland traded Miñoso to Chicago in a three-way deal that brought them back a left-handed pitcher and war hero, Lou Brissie.

Miñoso, finally freed to play ball every day, celebrated by homering in his first at-bat for the White Sox.

It remains unclear how Miñoso lost the Rookie of the Year award to Gil McDougald in 1951. Miñoso hit .326/.422/.500, all three slash lines significantly better than McDougald. He scored 40 more runs, had more doubles, triples (led the league with 14), drove in more runs, stole 17 more bases (led the league with 31), walked more, struck out less and played five different positions, going wherever the White Sox needed him.

When the award went to McDougald, who had a fine season for the World Series-winning Yankees, White Sox general manager Frank Lane about lost his mind. He thought that Miñoso not only should have won the Rookie of the Year, but should also have beaten out Yogi Berra for MVP, too.

“Certainly Berra shouldn’t have gotten it,” Lane said. “He had one of his worst years. He didn’t hit, and he got so he couldn’t even throw.”

This was a bit of an exaggeration — Berra hit .294 with 27 homers and led the Yankees in RBIs and runs — but he was not wrong that Miñoso was a more valuable hitter. Lane’s point was that the awards always seemed to go only to players on pennant-winning teams, and he thought that was unfair. As it turns out, that would be a theme in Miñoso’s career. He was never on a pennant-winning team, joining his fellow Chicago pioneer Ernie Banks as one of the best players to never play in a World Series.

But unlike Banks, Miñoso’s achievements just seemed to get overlooked.

He had a terrific year in ’53, hitting .313, scoring and driving in 100 runs, and leading the league in stolen bases for the third time.

In ’54, he was the best player in the American League — he hit .320/.411/.535 with 119 runs scored, 119 RBIs and he led the league with 19 triples.

He hit .316 in ’56, again led the league in triples, and cracked 21 homers.

He hit .310 and led the league with 36 doubles in ’57 and also won a Gold Glove in the inaugural year of the award.

He went back to Cleveland the next year and hit .302 with 24 homers. Hit .302 the next year with 21 homers and 92 RBIs.

Then he went back to Chicago in 1960 and put up another MVP-type season, hitting .311 with a league-leading 184 hits, 20 homers and 105 RBIs.

He never won an MVP award, never really came all that close. The awards almost exclusively went to pennant winners in those days, and pennant winners were almost exclusively Yankees — Berra won it again in ’54, the year that Miñoso absolutely should have been the MVP. Plus, this was the heyday of Mickey Mantle, who overshadowed everybody.

From 1951-60, 10 seasons, Miñoso hit .307 with a .397 on-base percentage. Over that stretch, only Mantle scored more runs, only Mantle and Berra drove in more RBIs, only Luis Aparicio stole more bases (one more base, actually), only Nellie Foxx cracked more hits. All of them are Hall of Famers. He hit more doubles than any of them.

Also, there’s this: A SABR researcher named Scott Simkus added things up, and he found that when you add together Miñoso’s Major League hits, minor league hits, Cuban League hits, Mexican League hits and Negro Leagues hits, you come the staggering number of 4,073, seventh all-time. Here’s that list of players with more than 4,000 total professional hits:

Pete Rose, 4,769
Ty Cobb, 4,379
Ichiro Suzuki, 4,367
Henry Aaron, 4,245
Jigger Statz, 4,093
Julio Franco, 4,074
Minnie Miñoso, 4,073
Derek Jeter, 4,059
Stan Musial, 4,023
How about that? We’ll save our essays on Franco and Statz for another time.

And Miñoso did all this even as he proudly carried the extraordinary burden of being the first Black player in Chicago and the first Black Latino star in the Major Leagues. As David Maraniss points out in his wonderful book, “Clemente,” the legendary African American writer Wendell Smith wrote about what Miñoso had to deal with when he went to spring training in Florida:

You cannot live with your teammates.
You cannot eat the type of food that your athletic body requires.
You cannot get a cab in the mornings to take you to the ballpark, unless it happens to be Negro driven.
You cannot enter the hotel in which your manager lives without first receiving special permission.
You cannot go to a movie or nightclub in the heart of town, nor enjoy any of the other normal recreational facilities your white teammates enjoy so matter of factly.
You cannot bring your wife and children to the town where you are training because accommodations are not available where you are imprisoned.
You cannot, even if there are facilities, take them to the town’s sprawling beaches or parks, unless, of course, they are designated as “Negro.”
You cannot do anything you would normally do in any of the major-league cities where you make your living during the summer.
You are quartered in a neighborhood that ordinarily you would be ashamed to be seen in.

And so on and so on … Miñoso and other Black players lived in residences without phones, they could not be treated by trainers immediately because they lived in the White hotels, you could not hang out with White teammates because they generally would not come to the part of town where the players were staying.

Miñoso so cheerfully endured. He overcame the indignities of life as Black man in baseball and history has often overlooked just how hard it was.

Speaking of Roberto Clemente, there has been some talk — rightfully so — about retiring his number for every team because of the extraordinary impact he had on the game. Well, Miñoso was Clemente’s hero. Miñoso was Hall of Famer Tony Pérez’s hero. Hall of Famer Orlando Cepeda called Miñoso the Jackie Robinson for Latinos.

(Hy Peskin / Getty Images)
It is utterly inconceivable that Minnie Miñoso is not in the Hall of Fame.

And yet, he really hasn’t ever come close to getting elected. He never received even 25 percent of the BBWAA vote. In trying to put that puzzle together, I’ve looked closely at his Hall of Fame record — he first came on the ballot in 1969 after he retired the first time.

At that point, the Hall of Fame was utterly myopic about the impact of those pioneers who integrated the sport; heck, they still hadn’t elected Satchel Paige to the Hall. Miñoso, who wasn’t given a chance until years after he was ready and faded rapidly after he turned 35, lacked the numbers that Hall of Fame voters cared about then. He didn’t have 2,000 hits. He fell short of being a lifetime .300 hitter. He got just six votes and disappeared from consideration.

Then, as you might know, Miñoso had a strange second life as a ballplayer — Bill Veeck had him return to the White Sox for three games in 1976, when Miñoso was (at least) 50. It was a stunt, the sort of thing Veeck loved. Then in 1980, Miñoso came back again for another Veeck stunt, this time so it could be said he played in five decades.

Then he returned to the Hall of Fame ballot in 1986, but now it had been almost 30 years since he was in his heyday. Miñoso did get some support — receiving as many as 90 votes — but there was no real groundswell for him. Few of the voters had seen him at his best. And even then, there wasn’t a full appreciation for what Miñoso had meant. Heck, it wasn’t until 1998 that the Hall of Fame Veterans’ Committee finally elected Larry Doby, the first African American to play in the American League.

The closest Miñoso came to getting into the Hall of Fame, I think, was in 2006, when a special committee was put together to elect all the remaining Negro Leaguers who were worthy of election. They elected 17 people but Miñoso was not one of them, even though he was on the ballot. It has been reported that the committee did not vote for Miñoso because he only played three years in the Negro Leagues. I wish they could have been more open in their thinking. He played long enough in the Negro Leagues to be on the ballot, and he was a superb Negro Leagues player in his short span. I think they should have looked at his full life and impact.

In 2007, Miñoso was back on the ballot, this time voted for by Hall of Famers. Nobody was elected and Miñoso got just 15 percent of the vote. He should have been on the Historical Era ballot in 2009 but was left off for some reason. He did get on the 2012 Golden Era Committee ballot, and he received nine of the 16 votes, which was pretty good but not good enough for election.

He was back on the ballot for the 2015 Golden Era ballot, and this time he got eight of 16 votes. Minnie Miñoso died a few months later.

I honestly cannot understand why this has even been a question in anyone’s mind. It has been 23 years since everybody finally woke up and elected Larry Doby to the Hall of Fame and it was disgraceful that it took so long.

Well, how much more disgraceful is this? Miñoso was every bit the player Doby was, probably better, and he overcame the same prejudice and had a similarly enormous impact. He made baseball a better game and was beloved like few players in the game’s history. We can argue about all those greats like Rose and Bonds and Clemens and the rest, but let’s be clear: They all stand in line behind Minnie Miñoso.

 

[Beau Vine 54203]

18 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

Schilling should be in but he won't get in.

I loved Schilling when he was playing, I think he should be in, but he's such a shitty human being (and it's really not about politics; he's just a shitty person) that it won't bother me in the least that he doesn't make it.  In fact, I will laugh at his twitter tirade about cancel culture later this afternoon.  

[dcar00 14147]

10 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

JoePos's #1 HOF Outsider:

 

I can see a case for Minoso just like Dwight Evans and a few others.  Doby certainly got a bump for being first black player in AL.

isn't there a committee that can put Minoso in?

[dcar00 14147]

10 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

I loved Schilling when he was playing, I think he should be in, but he's such a shitty human being (and it's really not about politics; he's just a shitty person) that it won't bother me in the least that he doesn't make it.  In fact, I will laugh at his twitter tirade about cancel culture later this afternoon.  

he certainly doesn't help himself.  if he doesn't make it whatever but his on the field results and no PED's says he's a HOFer.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

7 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

he certainly doesn't help himself.  if he doesn't make it whatever but his on the field results and no PED's says he's a HOFer.

Seems like the HOF voters need to come to an agreement that it's either on the field results ONLY or everything is on the table. 

[Wulaw Horn 19063]

9 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

I can see a case for Minoso just like Dwight Evans and a few others.  Doby certainly got a bump for being first black player in AL.

isn't there a committee that can put Minoso in?

Yes.  Said committee meets like every 4 years (they meet every year- but they cover 4 different eras of players and rotate). It's a football HOF type set up I believe where they meet in committee and vote. I believe you need 3/4 to get elected by the committee but I'm not absolutely positive on that.  

At least- this is the way it went down for the last decade or so. It's how Harold Baines was shamefully elected- probably being the most egregiously awful HOF selection ever (certainly in my lifetime). I don't know if the committee is permanent going forward or not.  

[Guest Lobo]

10 minutes ago, dcar00 said:

I can see a case for Minoso just like Dwight Evans and a few others.  Doby certainly got a bump for being first black player in AL.

isn't there a committee that can put Minoso in?

csb/ My uncle played briefly with Minoso in the CLE minors system way back when.  I got to see Minoso bat at Comiskey Park in 1980 with my dad who I thought was the oldest person ever.  Turns our Minoso was 54 at the time, wow.  Then ten years later Minoso became a regular at my mom's mexican restaurant for a year or two.  He gave my mom tickets to the opening of the new Comiskey Park in 1990 (even though we're Cubs fans).  But he was a nice guy, so jovial and as a fan of the history of the game, I enjoyed speaking with him the few times I got to be around his loud Cuban presence.  Obviously not hall worthy, but he's the only player ever to appear in an MLB game in 5 different decades.  

[66BUFF 2562]

Shutout

[Guadaloopy 10954]

And that’s as close as Schilling gets.  Top vote getter in a shutout year.  

[Hank Chinaski 6312]

Good. Fuck Schilling. 

[Pato del Muerto 52484]

We going to boot all the hall of famers that were shitty people?  
the older generations of racists, Kirby Puckett, I don’t even know who else?

[Guest Lobo]

Schilling got closer than I thought.  makes you wonder if he gets in if learns to keep his fucking mouth shut this year. 

Bonds and Clemens both shot way up from 61% to 73%.  Did not see that coming.  Figured that wouldn't happen until next year.  

Rolen came in a little lower than expected but not totally surprising.  

Story is the top three got closer than we'd think but for a bizarre variety of reasons, none got in.  Rolen's gonna sweat a few more years.  Mid ballot guys' stories continue for another few years as expected.  

2022 is gonna be a mini-series in and of itself.  Last year for Schilling, Clemens, and Bonds.  Guys like Kent, Sheffield, Wagner, and Manny really running out of time and sympathy.  And then he doesn't get in first ballot, but how does the table set for somebody like A-Rod?  I think Ortiz is a sure-fire first ballot inductee, but then---the writers have only heard of this wild new designated hitter concept in the last couple of years so we have to be patient with them.  None of who I'm about to mention should be first time balloters, but I'm very curious to see how they finish in their first year because they're very much players who need to be judged almost solely against the guys at their positions and not overall---Jimmy Rollins at SS, A.J. at Catcher, and Nathan & Papelbon at RP/CL.  

Weird fact---next year.  AND YES I KNOW...that batting average doesn't mean much anymore...but there'll be just two guys on the whole ballot with a lifetime batting average over .300 and neither one of them is in the conversation of getting in next year (Helton and Manny).  Just thought that was interesting.  

[Hank Chinaski 6312]

9 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Schilling got closer than I thought.  makes you wonder if he gets in if learns to keep his fucking mouth shut this year. 

Bonds and Clemens both shot way up from 61% to 73%.  Did not see that coming.  Figured that wouldn't happen until next year.  

Per MLB, Bonds and Clemens both came in at 61%...they've plateaued. 

Edited January 27, 2021 by Hank Chinaski

[Guest Lobo]

Yeah, I was looking at a CBS sports vote tracker.  didn't realize it was only about 2/3 complete.  Nevermind. 

Well, my other bullshit still stands.  

Next year gonna be wild.  

Edited January 27, 2021 by Lobo

[Hank Chinaski 6312]

30 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

We going to boot all the hall of famers that were shitty people?  
the older generations of racists, Kirby Puckett, I don’t even know who else?

Well Puckett really shouldn't have gotten in anyway. 

[Guest Lobo]

8 minutes ago, Hank Chinaski said:

Well Puckett really shouldn't have gotten in anyway. 

Cross him off then.  

[Captain Obvious 516]

Schilling asked to have his name taken off the HOF list.  He's gonna wait for the veterans committee since they're the only ones actually capable of judging HOF talent.

Fuck Schilling.  Hopefully the veteran committee tells him to fuck off as well.

Edited January 27, 2021 by Captain Obvious

[David Dennison 18840]

The fact that Pete Rose, Barry Bonds, and Roger Clemens are not in the HOF diminishes it as a serious institution.

[Pato del Muerto 52484]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

The fact that Pete Rose, Barry Bonds, and Roger Clemens are not in the HOF diminishes it as a serious institution.

But Harold baines is. Put there by this all knowing veterans committee. 

[Guest Lobo]

29 minutes ago, Captain Obvious said:

Schilling asked to have his name taken off the HOF list.  He's gonna wait for the veterans committee since they're the only ones actually capable of judging HOF talent.

Fuck Schilling.  Hopefully the veteran committee tells him to fuck off as well.

I've never heard of anyone doing that between their 9th and 10th ballot selections.  Does he think that's some kinda martyr gesture or what?  That's really fucking weird.  He stops acting insane on twitter and maybe lets some organic chatter percolate about his deserving to get in next year, I think it would work itself out the regular way.  What the hell is his long game here...I don't see it.  Except that he's inducted after he's dead. 

[Beau Vine 54203]

37 minutes ago, Captain Obvious said:

Schilling asked to have his name taken off the HOF list.  He's gonna wait for the veterans committee since they're the only ones actually capable of judging HOF talent.

You mean like Harold Baines?

[Beau Vine 54203]

32 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

The fact that Pete Rose, Barry Bonds, and Roger Clemens are not in the HOF diminishes it as a serious institution.

They're in there, all over the place.  Just not in the plaque gallery.  

[Captain Obvious 516]

48 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

You mean like Harold Baines?

I don't give the veterans committee any more credibility than the writers.  Schilling is just claiming the veterans are the only ones capable of respecting his impact on the game because he knows the other voters are done with him.

[Hank Chinaski 6312]

Man, I feel for Harold Baines. He was a good player and was well respected, but he'll always be the modern example of the guy that's in the Hall who doesn't deserve to be. 

Though Jack Morris is almost as egregious. 

[Beau Vine 54203]

 

[Guest Lobo]

10 minutes ago, Hank Chinaski said:

Man, I feel for Harold Baines. He was a good player and was well respected, but he'll always be the modern example of the guy that's in the Hall who doesn't deserve to be. 

Though Jack Morris is almost as egregious. 

Yeah, Baines has an awkward cross to bear.  Somebody will probably take it off his shoulders someday soon.  Jack Morris is light years beyond Baines though.  I mean, from 1979-1992, he's one of the 5 best starting pitchers in baseball.  that's saying something.  Baines was just a really good hitter off and on for awhile.

[Beau Vine 54203]

 

[dcar00 14147]

Baines is the Peter O' Toole of the Hall of Fame.

[petscii 1189]

IS IT TOO EARLY TO START WITH PUT LINCECUM IN FOR 2022?!?!?!!?

Edited January 27, 2021 by petscii

[dcar00 14147]

9 minutes ago, petscii said:

IS IT TOO EARLY TO START WITH PUT LINCECUM IN FOR 2022?!?!?!!?

IT WILL ALWAYS BE TOO EARLY!!!!!

[DanRydell 799]

I think Ortiz is a sure-fire first ballot inductee, but then---the writers have only heard of this wild new designated hitter concept in the last couple of years so we have to be patient with them.

Would seem like PEDs would be the bigger issue than his being a career DH.

[freyguy 4260]

14 hours ago, David Dennison said:

The fact that Pete Rose, Barry Bonds, and Roger Clemens are not in the HOF diminishes it as a serious institution.

Those 3 put themselves above the game.  And I know I'm beating a long since decomposed horse with this, but at the time Rose's transgressions were perceived/sensationalized to be the most aggregious offenses ever put toward the game.  Then came along Bonds & Co. saying "hold me beer".  I would have like to have seen Rose get in during that window before the PED thing blew up, because the guy has a brilliant baseball mind.  But Giamatti passing away stopped all that.  Sad deal all around, as each of those sons of bitches painted themselves as victims once the shit hit the fan, even though they had total control of their actions.

Oh, and fuck Curt Schilling.

[dcar00 14147]

9 hours ago, DanRydell said:

 

Would seem like PEDs would be the bigger issue than his being a career DH.

 

yep. known PED user.  They are going to have a hard time with him v. Clemens/Bonds/Ramirez/etc.

They need to put all the PED users, Rose, Joe Jackson, Schilling, in at once, no induction ceremony, and have a special room near the janitors closet for their plaques.

they can call it "Guys We Hate"

[cochamps 1879]

2 hours ago, dcar00 said:

yep. known PED user.  They are going to have a hard time with him v. Clemens/Bonds/Ramirez/etc.

They need to put all the PED users, Rose, Joe Jackson, Schilling, in at once, no induction ceremony, and have a special room near the janitors closet for their plaques.

they can call it "Guys We Hate"

Concur on the “guys we hate”.  But they have let some other PED guys in, and Ortiz is a guy they love.  Think he will go on on the first ballot.

[dcar00 14147]

2 minutes ago, cochamps said:

Concur on the “guys we hate”.  But they have let some other PED guys in, and Ortiz is a guy they love.  Think he will go on on the first ballot.

what guys are in that failed a PED test?

[cochamps 1879]

1 minute ago, dcar00 said:

what guys are in that failed a PED test?

None that failed a test.  Did not think Ortiz did either.

[cochamps 1879]

2 minutes ago, cochamps said:

None that failed a test.  Did not think Ortiz did either.

Didn’t realize he actually failed a test , probably in part due to the way the writers & broadcasters seem to fawn over him.  Maybe (?) Not first ballot, but he is a guy they love - not hate.

[dcar00 14147]

4 minutes ago, cochamps said:

Didn’t realize he actually failed a test , probably in part due to the way the writers & broadcasters seem to fawn over him.  Maybe (?) Not first ballot, but he is a guy they love - not hate.

Edit: that is what they are hoping, that most of public will forget he failed a test.

yep. the crawfishing is going to be epic.  they are going to wait for all the big name and failed test guys they hate to fall off the list and then put Ortiz in and let the veterans committee deal with the fallout.  ARod v Ortiz is going to be a problem for them though.

Its going to be comical.  I'm pretty much fuck the HOF voters if they do put him in. 

Edited January 27, 2021 by dcar00

[Beau Vine 54203]

2 hours ago, dcar00 said:

yep. known PED user.  They are going to have a hard time with him v. Clemens/Bonds/Ramirez/etc.

They need to put all the PED users, Rose, Joe Jackson, Schilling, in at once, no induction ceremony, and have a special room near the janitors closet for their plaques.

they can call it "Guys We Hate"

Are we also going to put known PED users Mantle, Mays, and Aaron in that special room?

[dcar00 14147]

Just now, Beau Vine said:

Are we also going to put known PED users Mantle, Mays, and Aaron in that special room?

yes we all know about speed...we can have a room called "coffee drinkers and uppers, who's with me!" along with the Babe Ruth/Lenny Dykstra/doc gooden/Dock Ellis room called "I played better high/buzzed".

the 'coffee drinkers and uppers" room can be near the front.

[cochamps 1879]

Just reading this thread makes me a little sick.  The HOF voting reminds me of the Heisman.  It was always sketchy, but it has been dead to me since VY.  Fuck you Kunt Bowls.