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Official Thread for Abortion Demagoguery

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Anastasis

Anastasis 23481

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, elfenix said:

in the context of the discussion - religious thought in the first couple hundred years of christianity - you'd have been hard pressed to tell a christian from a jew.  it wasn't until constantine decided that if he was going to rule a christian empire that he needed to know what a christian was that real separation started. 

Has really nothing to do with the topic of the thread but this is not an accurate framing of the topic.

The Jews expelled Christians from the synagogues and created distinction long before Constantine. The rabbinical liturgy has a specific curse calling out Christians.  Kind of a weird place to hang the distinction between Jew and Christian on Constantine.    

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Bama Chick
Bama Chick

No. Fuck off with that. Not every abortion is about trauma and tragedy and using that framing plays into the christofascist’s hands. Women are humans. Humans have bodily autonomy. Ergo, women have b

Brisketexan
Brisketexan

I do love this argument. I really do. It’s as convenient a way to label yourself a drooling moron as exists, outside of towing around a giant neon “I’M A MORON” sign. No, they didn’t teach us that

hayden_horn
hayden_horn

of course you do. thing is, i would support that. if they choose that. and the real thing is, i'm actually pro life. both my sons were very premature, and had they been born in the 80s, they

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F250

F250 28806

Posted
Posted
57 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

They’re both cults based on fairytales and delusion 

They are also extremely influential on society so it helps to understand the historical underpinning of those religions in order to better understand history and society. Unless of course you think book learning is for queers.

 

 

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David Dennison

David Dennison 18941

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36 minutes ago, F250 said:

They are also extremely influential on society so it helps to understand the historical underpinning of those religions in order to better understand history and society. Unless of course you think book learning is for queers.

The same can be said of communism. Ash bin of history and stuff.

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F250

F250 28806

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

The same can be said of communism. Ash bin of history and stuff.

Disagree. Just take Bukharin's contribution to Marxist–Leninist thought and the impact it had on Xiaoping which gave us the current State Capitalism of Communist China as an example.

Only a fool would say there isn't anything to learn from history.

 

 

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Guest Lobo

Guest Lobo

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Gourmand said:

Clayton Williams in his grave

relax relaxing GIF by Team Coco

Okay, this guy's a piece of shit.  But be honest, nothing he said at the start---including the anecdote about his adopted friend---are that different than other bullshit spewed by those who want to rule women's bodies from afar.  I've heard 100 versions of that from 100 political folks over the years.  The shocking part is the 0:56 part where he does get "original."  That God put those women at that time and place in order to be raped to receive this new life. 

I have to admit, that's a new one for me.  I thought it was gonna be the same ole', "Adding another tragedy like abortion to a tragedy like rape won't solve anything.  All life is precious."  But nope, big time fucking curveball, "You see little Stacey, god made you late for the B-train after a late shift at the restaurant.  So you'd be stuck at the subway station while 5 men gang raped you and impregnated you.  Ewww boy, and to think you almost didn't roll silverware afterwards, you would have missed out on his plan for you."  

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105189

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Okay, this guy's a piece of shit.  But be honest, nothing he said at the start---including the anecdote about his adopted friend---are that different than other bullshit spewed by those who want to rule women's bodies from afar.  I've heard 100 versions of that from 100 political folks over the years.  The shocking part is the 0:56 part where he does get "original."  That God put those women at that time and place in order to be raped to receive this new life. 
I have to admit, that's a new one for me.  I thought it was gonna be the same ole', "Adding another tragedy like abortion to a tragedy like rape won't solve anything.  All life is precious."  But nope, big time fucking curveball, "You see little Stacey, god made you late for the B-train after a late shift at the restaurant.  So you'd be stuck at the subway station while 5 men gang raped you and impregnated you.  Ewww boy, and to think you almost didn't roll silverware afterwards, you would have missed out on his plan for you."  

Man. I hated rolling silver.

Fuck side work.

And now you’re telling me it leads to rape.
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Blotto

Blotto 23560

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10 hours ago, Lobo said:

Okay, this guy's a piece of shit.  But be honest, nothing he said at the start---including the anecdote about his adopted friend---are that different than other bullshit spewed by those who want to rule women's bodies from afar.  I've heard 100 versions of that from 100 political folks over the years.  The shocking part is the 0:56 part where he does get "original."  That God put those women at that time and place in order to be raped to receive this new life. 

I have to admit, that's a new one for me.  I thought it was gonna be the same ole', "Adding another tragedy like abortion to a tragedy like rape won't solve anything.  All life is precious."  But nope, big time fucking curveball, "You see little Stacey, god made you late for the B-train after a late shift at the restaurant.  So you'd be stuck at the subway station while 5 men gang raped you and impregnated you.  Ewww boy, and to think you almost didn't roll silverware afterwards, you would have missed out on his plan for you."  

By definition, the rapists would be doing God's work, and how can you possibly punish anyone for that?

These people are proper fucked in the head. "You can't force me to take a vaccine, it's my body." Also, "Congratulations on your rape and the joy of fulfilling God's ambitions by carrying the baby to term. What's that? You're not religious? Tough shit."

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Guest Lobo

Guest Lobo

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If this guy from Michigan wins, it'll be a real awkward conversation between him and Abbott at the RGA meeting next year.  

Garrett, "Nice to meet you Greg.  I modeled some of my pro-choice campaign messaging after yours.  I look forward to getting into RGA leadership right away."  

Abbott, "Interesting.  Well, I was very successful in signing into law the most restrictive abortion laws in the nation.  So...I'm kind of a big deal around here and will probably be the Chairman again heading into the 2024 elections."  

Garrett, "Well, I'm curious...since it didn't sit well with even your conservative base that a woman can't even get an abortion after 6 weeks if she'd been raped and the trauma of the rape was still overwhelming her...so much so that she wasn't really in tune with her body and may not even know she's pregnant yet.  Plus, for a supposed Law & Order governor, the back-log on our rape kits is measured in years, not week.  Not really that tough on crime, you ask me.  But that's a story for another time.  Anyway, how can you help protect those women?"

Abbott, "Uh...er.  Um.....Well.  Here's the thing, we're gonna eliminate rape by having no rapists.  See?  What'll happen is we won't have to worry about rape victims getting raped anymore.  And if they're not raped, they can't get pregnant...so no need for a post-six week abortion debate.  Got it?  We're still trying to figure out the incest victim thing since most incest victims see their attacker on a regular basis, but I've got top men on that one too."  

Garrett, "Yeah, that doesn't make any sense.  We saw the backlash you got about that.  Know what I said?  That a pregnancy from rape, no matter how horrific, is still a beautiful life, worthy of saving, and all part of God's divine plan.  It workshopped at 94% effective with the base.  You can't prevent crimes that haven't been conceived yet, even the stupids know that.  But you can wait for horrific crimes to happen, force the victim to carry the fetus to term under threat of incarceration, and then just call it 'The Word of the Lord'."  

Abbott, "I have the worst fucking advisers."  

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formermav43

formermav43 4606

Posted
Posted
16 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Has really nothing to do with the topic of the thread but this is not an accurate framing of the topic.

The Jews expelled Christians from the synagogues and created distinction long before Constantine. The rabbinical liturgy has a specific curse calling out Christians.  Kind of a weird place to hang the distinction between Jew and Christian on Constantine.    

Not to mention that the Romans made a distinction between them at least as early as Nero.

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Guest Lobo

Guest Lobo

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Posted (edited)

Well to be fair to Garrett, he doesn't say it was God's will that she get raped directly.  I mean, he's not a fucking monster.  He couches it as "They don't know why God put them in this moment, but the little life inside that results from that could be the next President."  

The guy called a 5-man gang-rape on a subway platform.................a "Moment."  

If you'll excuse me, I'm just gonna go ahead and give him a moment to collect his next thoughts.  

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WhatTheBuck

WhatTheBuck 28794

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21 hours ago, F250 said:

Historically it was the Roman Catholics and Orthodox that have been opposed to abortion.

Historically, if you believed something they didn’t, like, say, that baptism is better administered to believers than to infants, the Roman Catholics would happily burn you at the stake.

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F250

F250 28806

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Just now, WhatTheBuck said:

Historically, if you believed something they didn’t, like, say, that baptism is better administered to believers than to infants, the Roman Catholics would happily burn you at the stake.

 

No Way What GIF

 

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JimmyJames

JimmyJames 12271

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56 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Well to be fair to Garrett, he doesn't say it was God's will that she get raped directly.  I mean, he's not a fucking monster.  He couches it as "They don't know why God put them in this moment, but the little life inside that results from that could be the next President."  

The guy called a 5-man gang-rape on a subway platform.................a "Moment."  

If you'll excuse me, I'm just gonna go ahead and give him a moment to collect his next thoughts.  

We all have our moments.

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Foosters

Foosters 17860

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https://apnews.com/article/business-texas-lawsuits-california-gun-politics-b0a3cd6c9061e1ba37d6c52ae093e6c0

Quote

A new bill in California would allow private citizens go after gun makers in the same way Texas lets them target abortion providers, though gun advocates immediately promised a court challenge if it becomes law.

Democratic Gov. Gavin Newsom on Friday backed legislation that would let private citizens enforce the state’s ban on assault weapons. It’s modeled after a Texas law that lets private citizens enforce that state’s ban on abortions once a fetal heartbeat is detected.

 

Quote

Newsom said he hopes the proposal forces the U.S. Supreme Court’s hand on the Texas abortion law. He said it will either expose their “hypocrisy” if they should block California’s proposal that affects the gun industry and not the Texas law on abortion, “or it’ll get them to reconsider the absurdity of their previous decision.”

“There is no principled way the U.S. Supreme Court cannot uphold this California law. None. Period full stop. It is quite literally modeled after the law they just upheld in Texas,” Newsom said.

 

Quote

California’s bill has not been filed yet in the state Legislature. But a fact sheet provided by Hertzberg’s office said the bill would apply to those who manufacture, distribute, transport, import into California, or sell assault weapons, .50 BMG rifles, ghost guns or ghost gun kits.

Ghost guns are weapons bought online and assembled at home. They don’t have serial numbers, making them difficult to trace.

The bill would let people seek a court order to stop the spread of these weapons and recover up to $10,000 in damages for each weapon, plus attorney’s fees.

 

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Orale

Orale 1087

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Texas law barely reduced abortions.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/06/upshot/texas-abortion-women-data.html?action=click&module=Well&pgtype=Homepage&section=US News

Spoiler

In the months after Texas banned all but the earliest abortions in September, the number of legal abortions in the state fell by about half. But two new studies suggest the total number among Texas women fell by far less — around 10 percent — because of large increases in the number of Texans who traveled to a clinic in a nearby state or ordered abortion pills online.

Two groups of researchers at the University of Texas at Austin counted the number of women using these alternative options. They found that while the Texas law — which prohibits abortion after fetal cardiac activity can be detected, or around six weeks — lowered the number of abortions, it did so much more modestly than earlier measurements suggested.

Combined, the data points to what may happen to abortion access if the Supreme Court decides to overturn Roe v. Wade when it rules on another abortion law this summer. The data shows the limitations of laws restricting abortion. Yet it also shows how restrictions erect significant obstacles, which will cause some women to carry unwanted pregnancies to term.

“The law has not done anything to change people’s need for abortion care; it has shifted where people are getting their abortion,” said Kari White, principal investigator of the university’s Texas Policy Evaluation Project and the lead researcher on the new out-of-state abortion study. She expressed surprise at how few abortions were prevented by such a sweeping set of restrictions: “The numbers are way bigger than we expected. It’s pretty astounding.”

 
 

But for the architects of the Texas law, even a modest reduction in abortions is a success.

“There’s no hesitation from our side to declare this a victory for actually protecting pre-born children from elective abortion,” said John Seago, the legislative director of Texas Right to Life, who was involved in the creation of the law. “We’re realists around here, so the best we can do is incentivize women to have their children.”

Gov. Greg Abbott, a Republican who said the bill “ensures that the life of every unborn child who has a heartbeat will be saved from the ravages of abortion” when he signed it, declined to comment on the new numbers.

 
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As state legislatures await a Supreme Court ruling and take stock of the Texas experience this year, several have passed new abortion restrictions, even if they conflict with Roe. On Thursday night, the Florida Legislature voted to ban most abortions after 15 weeks. Somewhere between 21 and 26 states are expected to ban or substantially restrict abortion if the Supreme Court permits it. On Monday, an effort by Senate Democrats to codify abortion rights into federal law failed to attract enough votes.

 
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Each month in the period between September 2021, when the Texas law went into effect, and the end of the year, an average of 1,400 women went to one of seven nearby states, according to one of the new studies, released Sunday. That was 12 times as many as typically sought abortions out of state before the law.

The study included seven nearby states: New Mexico, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Arkansas, Kansas, Mississippi and Colorado. Nearly half of Texans who traveled went to Oklahoma, and a quarter to New Mexico. It counted Texans who visited 34 of 44 clinics, so the total was probably higher.

 

An average of 1,100 women ordered abortion pills online each month from Aid Access, an overseas service that sends pills in the mail while sidestepping U.S. abortion restrictions, by connecting women with European doctors and Indian pharmacies. That is more than triple the number who ordered pills in an average month before the law, according to the second study, published last week in JAMA Network Open.

Before, there was an average of 11 requests a day. Immediately after, that spiked to 138 requests a day, and has leveled out at about 30. The study could not determine if all medication requests resulted in abortions.

“The law is semi-effective; it will not stop all abortions,” said Abigail R.A. Aiken, an author of the study, who teaches public affairs and leads a research group studying self-managed abortion at the University of Texas at Austin.

Those who were unable to get abortions are most likely to be poor, a variety of research has found. It’s expensive to travel to another state and pay for transportation, child care and lodging in addition to the procedure.

The new data covers the most common alternative methods to the in-state clinics, but does not include all Texans who got abortions.An unknown number of women most likely used other means, such as ordering pills from online pharmacies that have not published their sales numbers; crossing the border to Mexico to buy over-the-counter pills; traveling to additional states to get abortions; or using herbs or other methods for self-managing abortions.

If Roe is overturned, the same patterns may not hold nationwide, because abortion access would be even harder than it has been for Texans.

 
 
 
 

Instructions were given to a patient on the follow-up medications to be taken at home after she took the initial abortion-inducing medication at Trust Women clinic in Oklahoma City. Of the 20 abortions performed that day last December, 17 were for patients from Texas.

Image

Instructions were given to a patient on the follow-up medications to be taken at home after she took the initial abortion-inducing medication at Trust Women clinic in Oklahoma City. Of the 20 abortions performed that day last December, 17 were for patients from Texas.Instructions were given to a patient on the follow-up medications to be taken at home after she took the initial abortion-inducing medication at Trust Women clinic in Oklahoma City. Of the 20 abortions performed that day last December, 17 were for patients from Texas.Credit...Evelyn Hockstein/Reuters

Recent research has shown that abortion pills outside formal health care settings are accessible, reliable and effective — and that information about Aid Access is increasingly being shared online. But some women don’t know it’s an option. “It’s been the question that has been on my mind for the last 10 years: How do you reach the ones who cannot find you?” said Rebecca Gomperts, the physician who runs Aid Access.

 
 

Also, it is technically illegal to sell prescription medicine to American patients from another country without a prescription from a doctor licensed in the United States. Enforcement is difficult, however, even as Texas and some other states have explicitly restricted medication abortion.

Understand the Texas Abortion Law

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The most restrictive in the country. The Texas abortion law, known as Senate Bill 8, amounts to a nearly complete ban on abortion in the state. It prohibits most abortions after about six weeks and makes no exceptions for pregnancies resulting from incest or rape. The law has been in place since Sept. 1.

Citizens have the power to enforce the law. The law effectively deputizes ordinary citizens — including those from outside Texas — allowing them to sue those who violate the law. It awards them at least $10,000 per illegal abortion if they are successful. Patients cannot be sued, but doctors, staff and even a patient’s Uber driver could become a defendant.

The aftermath. The number of abortions performed in Texas fell by roughly half in the weeks after the law went into effect. Several suits, by abortion providers and the Justice Department, were subsequently filed in response to the passing of the law.

Challenges before the Supreme Court. The court declined to block the law twice, in September and October. On Dec. 10, it allowed a challenge to the law to proceed, ruling that abortion providers may sue some state officials in federal court. The law remains in effect.

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Without Roe, clinics would close in wide swaths of the South and Midwest. The closures would increase average driving distances to the nearest clinic to about 280 miles, up from 35 miles, for women in states without one, found research by Caitlin Knowles Myers, an economist at Middlebury College, and colleagues.

Research on past abortion laws has shown that longer distances tend to reduce abortions, as the challenges of travel mount. Groups offering financial and logistical support to Texas women said donations had decreased after a bump when the law went into effect.

The groups added they would not have enough resources to help women in so many states. Remaining clinics would most likely be overwhelmed with patients. Trust Women, which has an abortion clinic in Oklahoma, is seeing 10 times as many Texans there as it used to. That causes a ripple effect. Many Oklahomans can’t get local care and have to seek it elsewhere, said Rebecca Tong, an executive director of the clinics.

The clinics have tried to expand to meet demand, but especially in Oklahoma, where abortion would be outlawed if Roe were overturned, it’s hard to recruit doctors, she said: “Some would be leaving a full-time job with benefits, and for what?”

At Hope Medical in Shreveport, La., two-thirds of patients are now from Texas, up from one-fifth before the Texas law went into effect. The clinic used to do the majority of abortions before nine weeks, but now most patients are in their late first or early second trimester, because of the longer wait times for appointments.

 
 

“What ultimately is happening is because we are so busy and we can’t work any faster, we’re seeing women whose pregnancies were further along,” said Kathaleen Pittman, the clinic’s administrator. “It’s happening not just to Texas women but to Louisiana women because they’re having to wait too.”

Still, clinics are preparing for an even bigger surge if Roe is overturned, planning to expand capacity if abortion remains legal in their state — or, if not, to open over state lines where it is legal; offer more guidance through telemedicine; or offer pre-abortion care.

Kristina Tocce, the medical director of Planned Parenthood of the Rocky Mountains, said the influx of Texas patients had provided a preview of a possible future, in which Colorado, which is expected to keep abortion fully legal, could become a post-Roe abortion hub.

“What is going to happen when this happens to more and more states?” she said. “I don’t know, but we can’t absorb 26 states going dark.”

Note: Our calculated decline in overall abortions compares the recent numbers to a baseline of abortion numbers from before the legal change. For legal in-state abortions and requests for abortion pills, we compared the period from March to July in 2021 with the period from September to December in 2021.

For out-of-state abortions, we compared the period from March to July in 2021 with a 2019 monthly average. (Figures from early 2021 were not available.)

Because the number of abortions in Texas increased in August 2021, in anticipation of the new restrictions, we did not include that figure when establishing the historical numbers.

 

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APMP

APMP 688

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Posted
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/11/us/texas-abortion-law.html

Texas Supreme Court Shuts Down Final Challenge to Abortion Law

The ruling says state officials have no authority to enforce the law, which empowers private citizens: “We cannot rewrite the statute.”

 


Time for the same tactic to be used to nullify a bunch of other constitutional rights.

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-02-18/gavin-newsom-gun-control-bills-texas-abortion-law

Both sides and all that.

The clowns on the Supreme Court have allowed a constitutional race to the bottom.
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tchookem

tchookem 3905

Posted
Posted
 
 
Question for the lawyers...

If the lady had died, could her husband have brought a wrongful death suit against the state? The Texas law denied her a Constitutionally protected procedure and she died as a result. Shouldn't that open the up to damages?

I know I'm not the first to bring this up, but I don't know that I've ever heard an answer.

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