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Posted

It's absurd that it's come to this, but doctors and hospitals need to have some courage to push back against delaying proper, life-saving care regarding UNVIABLE embryos. FFS. Save the patient's life and dare the asshole DA to prosecute. Make this shit come to a head. 

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Posted
  On 7/26/2022 at 11:22 PM, Captainant said:

man thank goodness we've been saved from barbarism, right @Anastasis?? It's so good we have the great state of texas to tell women what's best for their health! 

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I've never expected the state to deliver us from barbarism. We are talking Texas where we use lethal injection on developmentally challenged individuals without much shame. Solutions won't come out of the courts and the legislators, and I have never suggested that they would. 

  On 7/27/2022 at 11:57 PM, ChuckNorrisActionJeans said:

It's absurd that it's come to this, but doctors and hospitals need to have some courage to push back against delaying proper, life-saving care regarding UNVIABLE embryos. FFS. Save the patient's life and dare the asshole DA to prosecute. Make this shit come to a head. 

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I agree with this. That case looks bad, and is the result of decisions made by hospital administrators that took an extreme position to manage their perceived risk in a setting where the law allows for abortion in medical emergencies. The doc was ready to go, they were constrained not by law enforcement, but by the hospital administrators interpretation of what the law may or may not cover.

Does anybody have a sense as to recent historical numbers on the number of abortions annually that were deemed medical emergencies? And context as to how that compares to abortions overall?  

 

 

Posted
  On 7/28/2022 at 1:14 AM, Anastasis said:

Does anybody have a sense as to recent historical numbers on the number of abortions annually that were deemed medical emergencies? And context as to how that compares to abortions overall?  

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They probably don't count miscarried fetuses in abortion statistics. And sorry for leaving you room to misunderstand my point - you famously referred to any and all abortion as "barbarism". Congratulations on your big win with totally no negative health consequences for pregnant mothers that miscarry

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Posted

You will not find a post on the topic where I use the phrase "any and all".  You will also not find a post where I say that a court or legislative solution is viable or preferred.  You will not find a post where I reject the notion that there are medical emergencies where an abortion may weighed against the alternative outcomes. And conflating abortions in cases of medical emergency with spontaneous abortions i.e. miscarriages is just further sleight of hand. 

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Posted
  On 7/28/2022 at 1:14 AM, Anastasis said:

That case looks bad, and is the result of decisions made by hospital administrators that took an extreme position to manage their perceived risk in a setting where the law allows for abortion in medical emergencies. The doc was ready to go, they were constrained not by law enforcement, but by the hospital administrators interpretation of what the law may or may not cover.

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Dude.  This is low.  Even for you.

oh-fuck-off-fuck.gif

Posted
  On 7/27/2022 at 11:57 PM, ChuckNorrisActionJeans said:

It's absurd that it's come to this, but doctors and hospitals need to have some courage to push back against delaying proper, life-saving care regarding UNVIABLE embryos. FFS. Save the patient's life and dare the asshole DA to prosecute. Make this shit come to a head. 

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So much this.  I work in hospital risk management, but thank god in a blue state, and I can't imagine telling a doctor to do anything other than what is in the patient's best interest under those circumstances.  And then probably hire outside counsel to proactively litigate the issue.

Posted (edited)
  On 7/28/2022 at 6:20 PM, gyroprotagonist said:

so you don't think the environment of abortion bounties and elected officials trying to out-zealot each other proclaiming they will sue/prosecute/jail/fine any entity that dares to help a pregnant woman may contribute to having doctors looking over their shoulder?  Give me a fucking break trying to pin this on hospital admins.  This is working better than these sick fuck GOP misogynists could have dreamed of.  

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I think that they should take the approach CNAJ lays out and challenge a DA to prosecute a medically necessary abortion. 

 

But yes, those laws are counterproductive and wrong-headed.  I've said as much previously. 

Edited by Anastasis
Posted
  On 7/28/2022 at 8:01 PM, Anastasis said:

I think that they should take the approach CNAJ lays out and challenge a DA to prosecute a medically necessary abortion. 

 

But yes, those laws are counterproductive and wrong-headed.  I've said as much previously. 

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Great. They're still the laws that you and yours are getting passed. Sorry that the policies you support result in our state treating women like chattel. Maybe you should put some thoughts and prayers towards how and why that happened.

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Posted
  On 7/28/2022 at 9:19 PM, Captainant said:

Great. They're still the laws that you and yours are getting passed. Sorry that the policies you support result in our state treating women like chattel. Maybe you should put some thoughts and prayers towards how and why that happened.

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Oh good, Ant is back to relay his thoughts arrived at based on conversations with the voices in his head. 

Posted
  On 7/28/2022 at 9:21 PM, Anastasis said:

Oh good, Ant is back to relay his thoughts arrived at based on conversations with the voices in his head. 

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So you're telling me the other folks in your bible study and at your church don't support SB8? And that they would vote for someone that would repeal that state law?

Or is this another one of those "ignore my actions, listen to my empty words" things?

Posted
  On 7/28/2022 at 9:25 PM, Captainant said:

So you're telling me the other folks in your bible study and at your church don't support SB8? And that they would vote for someone that would repeal that state law?

Or is this another one of those "ignore my actions, listen to my empty words" things?

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Its interesting to keep getting these looks at the fanciful delusions that have taken root in your mind, and which you are have so thoroughly convinced yourself cannot be questioned.  Really starts to provide some context for some of the dumb shit you say in these exchanges.  

Posted
  On 7/28/2022 at 10:33 PM, Anastasis said:

Its interesting to keep getting these looks at the fanciful delusions that have taken root in your mind, and which you are have so thoroughly convinced yourself cannot be questioned.  Really starts to provide some context for some of the dumb shit you say in these exchanges.  

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You could just answer his questions and put it to bed.

Posted (edited)
  On 7/28/2022 at 10:35 PM, Biff Tannen said:

You could just answer his questions and put it to bed.

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You know that answering questions from the pit of Ant's fevered brain delusions won't dispense with his nonsense.

If the question is the political alignment of the folks I tend to hang out with on Sunday mornings, both broadly and in terms of the politics around the abortion issue, the answer would be that you would see a broad range of representation from very politically conservative to some of the most granola crunching liberals. There would be core areas of alignment on the moral and theological perspectives in play of course involving the intrinsic value of human life, but wrt to the politics of the nation-state, how they vote, and the actions specifically of the Texas Lege on SB8, it would be all over the place. For what it is worth, according to Pew +10D, and 22 no lean.    

Edited by Anastasis
Posted

Think y'all got it but just to clarify, my post was not assigning blame to docs/hospitals, or saying the onus should be on them but in cases like the above the R's have brought it to that absurd point -- despite Ana's mischaracterization to the contrary 

Posted (edited)
  On 7/28/2022 at 11:27 PM, gyroprotagonist said:

so to give women needed medical procedures, to save their lives or prevent/reduce physical/mental trauma, the onus is on the admins/docs to play chicken with a DA and dare them to bring charges against them personally?  The fucking DAs are already trying to go after docs in other states who provide legal abortion.  This is your take?  JFC

glad you disapprove of the laws you brought about.  about as helpful as thoughts and prayers lol

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So much this.  And to clarify my earlier post, which I made not having read Ana's drivel as he's been on my ignore list for a while.  I'm troubled by hospital administrators making these decisions and I wish they'd do more to stand up for their medical staff and employees, and the patients at their facilities, for whom these decisions should not be made by administrators in the first place.  I'd like to think if I was in the administrator's shoes I'd tell my medical staff to provide medically necessary care and we would defend them in any suit or prosecution that followed, while screaming from the rooftops about this.  But I'm a billion times more angry that any of these people are being put in the position to have to make these patient care decisions based on irrational laws designed to punish women, and to push medical providers who care for women from practice (at least in "red" states), and risking patients' lives and mental and physical health over demagoguery.  

Edited by lemonlime
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Posted
  On 7/28/2022 at 1:14 AM, Anastasis said:

I've never expected the state to deliver us from barbarism. We are talking Texas where we use lethal injection on developmentally challenged individuals without much shame. Solutions won't come out of the courts and the legislators, and I have never suggested that they would. 

I agree with this. That case looks bad, and is the result of decisions made by hospital administrators that took an extreme position to manage their perceived risk in a setting where the law allows for abortion in medical emergencies. The doc was ready to go, they were constrained not by law enforcement, but by the hospital administrators interpretation of what the law may or may not cover.

Does anybody have a sense as to recent historical numbers on the number of abortions annually that were deemed medical emergencies? And context as to how that compares to abortions overall?  

 

 

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I don’t know the numbers, but I do know the OB practices I work with deal with a number of medical emergencies that end in a terminated pregnancy and still born babies induced/born annually. They can’t even agree amongst themselves how to handle some of these situations now because our law here is any terminated pregnancy is an abortion (which is bullshit to call it that) and illegal based on how our law is written. I don’t know the details of your particular states law, but here it is black and white. Prosecutors in the larger districts have come out and said they will not prosecute, but it still has doctors in a no win situation on a medical issue. I don’t know that I would historically consider myself pro choice, but I don’t see how the cases like the 10 year old girl and all the others don’t make everyone realize that where we are is a bad situation.

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Posted
  On 7/28/2022 at 11:36 PM, ChuckNorrisActionJeans said:

Think y'all got it but just to clarify, my post was not assigning blame to docs/hospitals, or saying the onus should be on them but in cases like the above the R's have brought it to that absurd point -- despite Ana's mischaracterization to the contrary 

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I don't think I mischaracterized your post, sorry if you feel that way.   The law provides for exemptions due to medical emergency.  That exemption should be used in cases of medical emergency. 

Posted
  On 7/28/2022 at 11:47 PM, lemonlime said:

I'm troubled by hospital administrators making these decisions and I wish they'd do more to stand up for their medical staff and employees, and the patients at their facilities, for whom these decisions should not be made by administrators in the first place.  I'd like to think if I was in the administrator's shoes I'd tell my medical staff to provide medically necessary care and we would defend them in any suit or prosecution that followed, while screaming from the rooftops about this.

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The problem is that this is a criminal issue, not a civil issue.  Were it the latter, hospitals could reasonably say they will cover any costs and penalties a doctor might suffer.  A hospital can't serve jail time for a doctor, though.

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Posted
  On 7/28/2022 at 11:47 PM, lemonlime said:

So much this.  And to clarify my earlier post, which I made not having read Ana's drivel as he's been on my ignore list for a while.  I'm troubled by hospital administrators making these decisions and I wish they'd do more to stand up for their medical staff and employees, and the patients at their facilities, for whom these decisions should not be made by administrators in the first place.  I'd like to think if I was in the administrator's shoes I'd tell my medical staff to provide medically necessary care and we would defend them in any suit or prosecution that followed, while screaming from the rooftops about this.  But I'm a billion times more angry that any of these people are being put in the position to have to make these patient care decisions based on irrational laws designed to punish women, and to push medical providers who care for women from practice (at least in "red" states), and risking patients' lives and mental and physical health over demagoguery.  

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now do it for if the hospital is run by a religion and some pederast bishop is in charge whose entire religion thinks women shouldn't make decisions and has never received sex ed whatsoever is making the decisions.  Saw something like 15% of all hospitals are run by the Catholics.  We have religious looneys refusing to fill birth control Rxs at CVS but people expect them stand up and do the right thing when a fetus is involved?

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Posted
  On 7/28/2022 at 11:57 PM, jimmyjazz said:

The problem is that this is a criminal issue, not a civil issue.  Were it the latter, hospitals could reasonably say they will cover any costs and penalties a doctor might suffer.  A hospital can't serve jail time for a doctor, though.

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  On 7/28/2022 at 11:59 PM, gyroprotagonist said:

now do it for if the hospital is run by a religion and some pederast bishop is in charge whose entire religion thinks women shouldn't make decisions and has never received sex ed whatsoever is making the decisions.  Saw something like 15% of all hospitals are run by the Catholics.  We have religious looneys refusing to fill birth control Rxs at CVS but people expect them stand up and do the right thing when a fetus is involved?

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Absolutely.  And the blame lies with the lawmakers and their useful idiots who vote for them because they think they'll be able to afford a yacht with Magats in power.

I'm critical of hospital administrators they way pilots were critical of other pilots on the 737MAX thread.  Because I work in hospital risk and I can't imaging telling physicians on our staff some of the stuff I'm seeing is said here.  

And I really didn't mean to bring it up, and surely wouldn't have if I saw Ana's post, or thought it could be construed in any way as excusing what the lawmakers in those states are doing to women there.

But all that said, I'm in a state in which the right to choose is protected, working for a secular institution, and these are decisions I don't foresee having to make, at least until 2025, when MAGA gets control of the federal government.

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Posted
  On 7/28/2022 at 11:52 PM, Anastasis said:

I don't think I mischaracterized your post, sorry if you feel that way.   The law provides for exemptions due to medical emergency.  That exemption should be used in cases of medical emergency. 

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You keep saying that last sentence, but the only case it is allowed is if the mother’s life is in danger as I read it. There are other medical emergencies that would cause a doctor to terminate a pregnancy that aren’t allowable based on the law.

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Posted
  On 7/29/2022 at 12:10 AM, Brew said:

You keep saying that last sentence, but the only case it is allowed is if the mother’s life is in danger as I read it. There are other medical emergencies that would cause a doctor to terminate a pregnancy that aren’t allowable based on the law.

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We're already seeing it.  We're seeing cases where the fetus is wholly unviable, with zero chance of life outside the mother's body, and yet doctors are compelled to wait until the mother's life is quite literally in danger to abort, if then.

It's insanity.  

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Posted (edited)
  On 7/29/2022 at 12:10 AM, Brew said:

You keep saying that last sentence, but the only case it is allowed is if the mother’s life is in danger as I read it. There are other medical emergencies that would cause a doctor to terminate a pregnancy that aren’t allowable based on the law.

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For the sake of discussion, can you give me an example of a scenario that you would consider a medical emergency that would not be considered such under the law?

Edited by Anastasis
Posted
  On 7/26/2022 at 8:33 PM, Brisketexan said:


She shouldn’t be such a dirty slut member of the gender that first ate the forbidden fruit.
You think it’s more complicated than that. It’s not.

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You’re right and not calling you out but the irony is that biblically and experientially it’s the male side of the species that is more prone to eating the forbidden fruit and to commit moral failure but I guess that’s the woman’s fault even when it’s not sex related. Silly me, answered my own question.  Fuck Ken Paxton. 

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Posted
  On 7/29/2022 at 12:36 AM, Anastasis said:

For the sake of discussion, can you give me an example of a scenario that you would consider a medical emergency that would not be considered such under the law?

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Not a medical doctor but I am a lawyer and I know hospitals are like banks, deathly afraid of lawsuits even though most businesses run well understand it’s cost of doing business. But given the bounty Hunter statute it’s rather understandable. So Given that fear even cases that are academically clear are going to have to be clear and convincing. “Ok she’s flatlined, bring her back and you can term the pregnancy.” That’s the kind of shit that’s going to happen, but then that’s just health of the mother actually only likely death of the mother, doesn’t count incest or rape of frankly the elephant in the room it’s her fucking body. 

Posted
  On 7/29/2022 at 12:43 AM, troph said:
Not a medical doctor but I am a lawyer and I know hospitals are like banks, deathly afraid of lawsuits even though most businesses run well understand it’s cost of doing business. But given the bounty Hunter statute it’s rather understandable. So Given that fear even cases that are academically clear are going to have to be clear and convincing. “Ok she’s flatlined, bring her back and you can term the pregnancy.” That’s the kind of shit that’s going to happen, but then that’s just health of the mother actually only likely death of the mother, doesn’t count incest or rape of frankly the elephant in the room it’s her fucking body. 

It’s not about the bounty hunter statute. It’s worse. It’s about the trigger law where a successful abortion is a 1st degree felony with a possible life sentence. I don’t see how anyone can practice in that specialty in Texas given this status quo.
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Posted
  On 7/28/2022 at 1:14 AM, Anastasis said:

I've never expected the state to deliver us from barbarism. We are talking Texas where we use lethal injection on developmentally challenged individuals without much shame. Solutions won't come out of the courts and the legislators, and I have never suggested that they would. 

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Funny that you would allow yourself to be known as someone willing to give barbarians the power to do so. Simple enough to say the state ought not have that power. Ever. But, that’s not what you have to say..

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Posted
  On 7/29/2022 at 1:50 AM, scottsins said:


It’s not about the bounty hunter statute. It’s worse. It’s about the trigger law where a successful abortion is a 1st degree felony with a possible life sentence. I don’t see how anyone can practice in that specialty in Texas given this status quo.

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Current OB’s are worried about future recruitment issues and how it is going to impact graduates and where they decide to practice. Maybe more clarity will be legislated in, but right now the unknown would make me think twice about practicing in the south.

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Posted (edited)

what anastasis is eliding is that "dead fetus that is likely to cause sepsis but hasn't yet" isn't a "medical emergency" necessary to "save the mother's life," even though the sepsis would be.

Edited by elfenix


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