Official Thread for Abortion Demagoguery

[Anastasis 23489]

As stated in the link: 

But when Dr. Andrew Ryan Davis, the obstetrician on duty, finally arrived, he said it was the hospital’s “routine” to give a drug called misoprostol to help the body pass the tissue, Hope recalled. Hope trusted the doctor. Porsha took the pills, according to records, and the bleeding continued.

 

[wildcat09 29426]

13 hours ago, Anastasis said:

You'd be better off @'ing the hospital administrators. 

The Texas law certainly has flaws. Shit, I don't think it's an issue that is best addressed through the legal system at all.

But there is a common thread in most of these (extremely rare, but egregious) situations. The hospital systems are creating policies and protocols that are wrongheaded.

What a coincidence that every hospital that actually looks at the law and tries to figure out how it applies to them comes to a different conclusion than you. They should all hire you as a consultant, obviously, to tell them how they can comply with the law while providing necessary care.

[Anastasis 23489]

1 hour ago, wildcat09 said:

What a coincidence that every hospital that actually looks at the law and tries to figure out how it applies to them comes to a different conclusion than you. They should all hire you as a consultant, obviously, to tell them how they can comply with the law while providing necessary care.

Maybe they should. I'd tell them to provide any needed miscarriage management care as directed by the treating OBGYN. The law draws no distinction between misoprostol and D&C wrt elective abortions, so administering misoprostol for miscarriage management and blaming the Texas abortion law for not progressing to D&C when medically warranted just doesn't logically hold together. Miscarriage management is explicitly excluded from the definition of abortion in the statute. If the law needs clarification such that facilities and providers are not hesitant to use D&C when medically necessary, TMA should work with legislators to fix that. 

[Captainant 27835]

4 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Maybe they should. I'd tell them to provide any needed miscarriage management care as directed by the treating OBGYN. The law draws no distinction between misoprostol and D&C wrt elective abortions, so administering misoprostol for miscarriage management and blaming the Texas abortion law for not progressing to D&C when medically warranted just doesn't logically hold together. Miscarriage management is explicitly excluded from the definition of abortion in the statute. If the law needs clarification such that facilities and providers are not hesitant to use D&C when medically necessary, TMA should work with legislators to fix that. 

It's almost like the cruelty towards women is a feature and not a bug, or something.

[jimmyjazz 46245]

It's almost as if there aren't thousands of medical practioners in Texas who disagree with @Anastasis's viewpoint.

[Anastasis 23489]

Just now, jimmyjazz said:

It's almost as if there aren't thousands of medical practioners in Texas who disagree with @Anastasis's viewpoint.

If there is anything in that post that they disagree with, they can certainly post it and we can discuss it. 

[jimmyjazz 46245]

5 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

If there is anything in that post that they disagree with, they can certainly post it and we can discuss it. 

I think they've been pretty adamant that they can't take the risk.

[Gap03 3338]

1 minute ago, jimmyjazz said:

I think they've been pretty adamant that they can't take the risk.

I mean, it's just gambling with your medical license and freedom on a law written and likely to be interpreted by the same group of religious zealots - I'm sure the odds are in the doctors' favor, right?  Ana is one disingenuous bastard if he says he'd have the balls to get anywhere near the fucking line here in Texas, which, as others have pointed out, is entirely by design.  All in the name of plausible deniability for the Christian Taliban when it comes to the entirely foreseeable results of their POS law.

[Anastasis 23489]

21 minutes ago, Gap03 said:

Ana is one disingenuous bastard if he says he'd have the balls to get anywhere near the fucking line here in Texas

I honestly don't think that miscarriage management should be a gray area. If it is, the legislation and related guidance from TMB needs to be even more explicit. The far greater gray areas that are problematic in the law imo are the areas related to elective abortions in cases where severe fetal complications exist.  

[Brisketexan 105449]

8 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I honestly don't think that miscarriage management should be a gray area.

Yet it is.

100% intentionally.

You're not obtuse, you're just an asshole.  Wait.....you're probably both.

[Anastasis 23489]

37 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Yet it is.

Not really in the particular case we are discussing. You can't simultaneously argue that giving misoprostol is acceptable under the law and that doing D&C is not. They are treated the exact same by the statute. If a physician has met the legal and medical thresholds to administer misoprostol in the course of miscarriage management, they've met (at least the legal) threshold to do a D&C. 

Edited Tuesday at 08:59 PM by Anastasis

[royiv 9378]

18 hours ago, Anastasis said:

You'd be better off @'ing the hospital administrators. 

The Texas law certainly has flaws. Shit, I don't think it's an issue that is best addressed through the legal system at all.

But there is a common thread in most of these (extremely rare, but egregious) situations. The hospital systems are creating policies and protocols that are wrongheaded.

Hospital administrators aren’t coming up with policies on their own. They are consulting lawyers who have studied the law and they are the ones drafting policies aimed at keeping the hospital on the right side of the law.

[jimmyjazz 46245]

13 hours ago, royiv said:

Hospital administrators aren’t coming up with policies on their own. They are consulting lawyers who have studied the law and they are the ones drafting policies aimed at keeping the hospital on the right side of the law.

Yup.  By and large medical professionals want to do anything and everything they can to help a patient.  Doctors take an oath towards that end.  For them to refuse potentially life-saving services because to do otherwise exposes them to loss of license and even criminal prosecution is not only sad but terrifying.  Here we are.

But hey, it's all a misunderstanding of the law.

[tigol 2409]

16 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Not really in the particular case we are discussing. You can't simultaneously argue that giving misoprostol is acceptable under the law and that doing D&C is not. They are treated the exact same by the statute. If a physician has met the legal and medical thresholds to administer misoprostol in the course of miscarriage management, they've met (at least the legal) threshold to do a D&C. 

Fuck you.  No one has time for these fucking arguments.  People are dying.  There's no rational reason for this shitshow.

That said, I don't want your life to hang in the balance while some lawyers figure out how the hospital won't get into legal trouble for helping you survive.  I don't want that for anyone, but that's not something you have to consider.  But, I'm sure the ledge will clarify in time for you to stop bleeding out you obtuse asshole.

[Captainant 27835]

15 minutes ago, tigol said:

Fuck you.  No one has time for these fucking arguments.  People are dying.  There's no rational reason for this shitshow.

That said, I don't want your life to hang in the balance while some lawyers figure out how the hospital won't get into legal trouble for helping you survive.  I don't want that for anyone, but that's not something you have to consider.  But, I'm sure the ledge will clarify in time for you to stop bleeding out you obtuse asshole.

You're talking to someone who's entire livelihood is standing between patients and doctors and charging a handling fee to let them do medicine. He doesn't give a fuck about health outcomes, just that he gets a piece and can maintain his cognitive dissonance

[Anastasis 23489]

And off to delusional ad hominem land we go. Good talk y'all. Thanks for the @ Ant.  

[scottsins 1975]

Deleted

[safe sex 11794]

Ana is so disingenuous about any argument related to abortion. Remember, it's the abortions that are "barbarous" and not the innocent women bleeding out due to cruel laws

[Brisketexan 105449]

OR, instead of relying on the exceptions provided by statute where the only thing standing between them and a 1st degree felony prosecution is…checks notes…some cops, prosecutors and jurors…they just say fuck it and choose not to take the chance.

Yep, and it’s not much more complicated than that.
Add to that an overzealous AG who likes filing show charges, and it’s a whole lot of fuck that shit.
“Hey doc, perform this medical procedure. And if you make the wrong call - or simply if Ken Paxton wants to grab some headlines, which he ALWAYS does - you’ll get to sit in the dock and wait to find out if you will die in prison.”
Haw far away would you run from that decision? Yep. It’s the only rational move. AND IT IS THAT WAY BY DESIGN. THAT IS THE OUTCOME MAGA WANTS.

[Anastasis 23489]

3 minutes ago, scottsins said:

Deleted

It’s ok sins. Say whatever you feel is real. 

[Willfully Horn 8057]

Folks who want to impose their religion on the rest of this country are zealots. Fuck them all. Anti-American and un-Christian. I’ll call them traitors, because, again, fuck them.

[Anastasis 23489]

1 hour ago, safe sex said:

Ana is so disingenuous about any argument related to abortion. Remember, it's the abortions that are "barbarous" and not the innocent women bleeding out due to cruel laws

That's just a completely false framing. But tell us more about disingenuity.

~7k abortions among individuals on their 3rd go around in Texas alone 2021. Tell me more about barbarism and a society that embraces it. 

I am sure that the N=3, and the people like me that would like to see that reduced to N=0, are really repulsive to you. 

Edited 13 hours ago by Anastasis

[Willfully Horn 8057]

4 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

That's just a completely false framing. But tell us more about disingenuity.

~7k abortions among individuals on their 3rd go around in Texas alone 2021. Tell me more about barbarism and a society that embraces it. 

I am sure that the N=3, and the people like me that would like to see that reduced to N=0, are really repulsive to you. 

You stated abortion is basically a philosophical issue. Which is akin to a religious one. You are a zealot. Fuck off.

Cast your stones, speak for your God, hypocrite. Fuck you.

[Anastasis 23489]

11 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

Folks who want to impose their religion on the rest of this country are zealots. Fuck them all. Anti-American and un-Christian. I’ll call them traitors, because, again, fuck them.

I understand that you have issues with recognizing the intrinsic value of human life and basic human rights as they relate. It cross cuts multiple topics.  

[Willfully Horn 8057]

Just now, Anastasis said:

I understand that you have issues with recognizing the intrinsic value of human life and basic human rights as they relate. It cross cuts multiple topics.  

Of course you do, zealot.

[Goofyboy 3298]

That's just a completely false framing. But tell us more about disingenuity.
~7k abortions among individuals on their 3rd go around in Texas alone 2021. Tell me more about barbarism and a society that embraces it. 
I am sure that the N=3, and the people like me that would like to see that reduced to N=0, are really repulsive to you. 

Yes, you are. You support dead people having more bodily autonomy than living women. A woman has to die to have a say over what happens to her body. Abortion doesn’t actually affect you at all. It just feels bad to you and you want it gone. Why the fuck can’t people like you mind your own damn business?

[Anastasis 23489]

Oh good. This is the part where we act like human life doesn't have intrinsic value and that the people who think that it does are zealots. What a world. 

[Anastasis 23489]

Totally upside down moral instincts. Right out depravity. 

[Willfully Horn 8057]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

Oh good. This is the part where we act like human life doesn't have intrinsic value and that the people who think that it does are zealots. What a world. 

Folks smarter than you concluded that breath gave life, and, further, that conclusion was God. I get a narcissist would think their own beliefs inviolate. And, so, fuck you.

[Anastasis 23489]

1 minute ago, Willfully Horn said:

Folks smarter than you concluded that breath gave life, and, further, that conclusion was God. I get a narcissist would think their own beliefs inviolate. And, so, fuck you.

Tell us more about religious zealots. In this house we believe in science. 

[Willfully Horn 8057]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

Tell us more about religious zealots. In this house we believe in science. 

lol.

Science says overpopulation ought be culled.

 

[workswithseed 2119]

3 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

Folks smarter than you concluded that breath gave life, and, further, that conclusion was God. I get a narcissist would think their own beliefs inviolate. And, so, fuck you.

Luke 1 41-44. 

6 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Tell us more about religious zealots. In this house we believe in science. 

Conception?

[Goofyboy 3298]

Tell us more about religious zealots. In this house we believe in science. 

Fetus isn’t a person then.

[Anastasis 23489]

Just now, Willfully Horn said:

Science says overpopulation ought be culled.

 

[Anastasis 23489]

1 minute ago, workswithseed said:

Conception?

Very basic biological sciences life cycle shit. 

But that is not really the issue. It is refreshingly honest when posters like Willfully say this quiet parts out loud. 

[workswithseed 2119]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

Very basic biological sciences life cycle shit. 

But that is not really the issue. It is refreshingly honest when posters like Willfully say this quiet parts out loud. 

Funny how a Catholic still is given life.

[Anastasis 23489]

5 minutes ago, Goofyboy said:

Fetus isn’t a person then.

This is like playing poker with my 4th grader. 

[Willfully Horn 8057]

1 hour ago, workswithseed said:

Luke 1 41-44. 

Conception?

Num 5:11-31

[workswithseed 2119]

34 minutes ago, Willfully Horn said:

Num 5:11-31

Oh, I guess don't cheat, or your husband will make you not have children again. Not so much that you are pregnant. 

[Willfully Horn 8057]

3 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

Oh, I guess don't cheat, or your husband will make you not have children again. Not so much that you are pregnant. 

Tough to cheat when you are dead. You and the other man’s child.

Edited 10 hours ago by Willfully Horn

[DigglerontheHoof 21258]

Worship your stupid imaginary friend all you want but keep it in the fucking church and leave the rest of us alone.  Fucking zealots. 

[Horn Dog 9952]

 

On 11/26/2024 at 2:48 PM, Gap03 said:

I mean, it's just gambling with your medical license and freedom on a law written and likely to be interpreted by the same group of religious zealots - I'm sure the odds are in the doctors' favor, right?  Ana is one disingenuous bastard if he says he'd have the balls to get anywhere near the fucking line here in Texas, which, as others have pointed out, is entirely by design.  All in the name of plausible deniability for the Christian Taliban when it comes to the entirely foreseeable results of their POS law.

Exactly.  I got an idea.  Lets pass a law that says unsurance companies and those that work for them must make coverage decisions that are “medically ethical and in the interests of preserving life” or some other vague criteria under criminal punishment of murder if those standards are not met.  I am sure everyone here will support this proposal  for the sake of the “sanctity of human life and basic himan rights”.  

[Sawbonz 27605]

On 11/26/2024 at 2:12 PM, Anastasis said:

honestly don't think that miscarriage management should be a gray area

Then you should vote dem and encourage everyone you know to do the same until the nuts that voted for this insanity are run out of the legislature 

[Sawbonz 27605]

10 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Oh good. This is the part where we act like human life doesn't have intrinsic value and that the people who think that it does are zealots. What a world. 

Human life absolutely has inherent value. Human rights sometimes come into conflict, directly impacting human life. Reasonable people can find  resolution for those instances. But right now, in 2024 in the most medically advanced country in history, women are dying after routine miscarriages 

 

What a world indeed

[Sawbonz 27605]

10 hours ago, Anastasis said:

That's just a completely false framing. But tell us more about disingenuity.

~7k abortions among individuals on their 3rd go around in Texas alone 2021. Tell me more about barbarism and a society that embraces it. 

I am sure that the N=3, and the people like me that would like to see that reduced to N=0, are really repulsive to you. 

And you are fine with innocent women dying to reduce that number. 

[Sawbonz 27605]

I’m so mad I can’t see straight at bullshit like this. Many of us here are high achievers with wives who are the same. We put off having children, and older couples have more trouble conceiving and have a higher risk complicated pregnancies.
 

Many of us have posted about pregnancies that ended in miscarriages that required D&C. I can’t imagine the added stress of pregnancy in Texas in the current environment for a young healthy woman (and partner), much less a couple in their 30’s trying to conceive. 
 

My youngest daughter and several of her friends are getting IUDs, not because they are sexually active or plan to be in the near future, but in case they get raped

 

What a world right?

[wildcat09 29426]

4 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

And you are fine with innocent women dying to reduce that number. 

I think the most charitable take of Ana’s view on this is that he sees them all as whores who deserve that risk, either because they had sex knowing the risk of pregnancy or for those who were raped, because Eve ate the forbidden fruit and now all women are condemned by her.

Of course he’ll pretend that he doesn’t believe anything like that, he’s a special snowflake who holds very artisanal archconservative religious beliefs that don’t align with those of other archconservative religious believers on anything that might be the immediate topic of discussion. He’s like a woke inquisitor, basically.

[Horn Dog 9952]

12 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Human life absolutely has inherent value. Human rights sometimes come into conflict, directly impacting human life. Reasonable people can find  resolution for those instances. But right now, in 2024 in the most medically advanced country in history, women are dying after routine miscarriages 

 

What a world indeed

What is amazing is someone who works for a health insurance company, who’s very livelihood is based on the idea of assigning a monetary value on life and life decisions, is lecturing us about the inherent (?priceless)value of human life.  The people that work for these companies (rightfully imo) decide it is not right to spend a million dollars to prolong a 90yr old life a few days.  They make these decisions comfortably with no threat of criminal prosecution or loss of livelihood. So do fertilized human cells have value?  Sure.  Are they priceless?  Well no otherwise we would be spending trillions to prevent the thousands of daily miscarriages.  Are those fertilized human cells “worth” more than a fully functioning adult woman or a medical professional trying to save that adult? Most would logically say no and rightfully expect our laws to unequivocally reflect that.

[Anastasis 23489]

16 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

And you are fine with innocent women dying to reduce that number. 

You know what is actually taking place in these cases, sawbonz. You've posted it yourself up thread. It's medical malpractice hiding behind a smoke screen. The law doesn't differentiate between misoprostol and D&C in these cases. 

[Anastasis 23489]

 

46 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Then you should vote dem and encourage everyone you know to do the same

25 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I think the most charitable take of Ana’s view on this is that he sees them all as whores who deserve that risk

 

You guys have absolutely zero interest in fixing, or even rationally discussing, the flaws that exist in the Texas laws.