Official Thread for Abortion Demagoguery

[ChuckNorrisActionJeans 2692]

It's absurd that it's come to this, but doctors and hospitals need to have some courage to push back against delaying proper, life-saving care regarding UNVIABLE embryos. FFS. Save the patient's life and dare the asshole DA to prosecute. Make this shit come to a head. 

[Anastasis 23699]

On 7/26/2022 at 6:22 PM, Captainant said:

man thank goodness we've been saved from barbarism, right @Anastasis?? It's so good we have the great state of texas to tell women what's best for their health! 

I've never expected the state to deliver us from barbarism. We are talking Texas where we use lethal injection on developmentally challenged individuals without much shame. Solutions won't come out of the courts and the legislators, and I have never suggested that they would. 

1 hour ago, ChuckNorrisActionJeans said:

It's absurd that it's come to this, but doctors and hospitals need to have some courage to push back against delaying proper, life-saving care regarding UNVIABLE embryos. FFS. Save the patient's life and dare the asshole DA to prosecute. Make this shit come to a head. 

I agree with this. That case looks bad, and is the result of decisions made by hospital administrators that took an extreme position to manage their perceived risk in a setting where the law allows for abortion in medical emergencies. The doc was ready to go, they were constrained not by law enforcement, but by the hospital administrators interpretation of what the law may or may not cover.

Does anybody have a sense as to recent historical numbers on the number of abortions annually that were deemed medical emergencies? And context as to how that compares to abortions overall?  

 

 

[Captainant 28387]

10 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Does anybody have a sense as to recent historical numbers on the number of abortions annually that were deemed medical emergencies? And context as to how that compares to abortions overall?  

They probably don't count miscarried fetuses in abortion statistics. And sorry for leaving you room to misunderstand my point - you famously referred to any and all abortion as "barbarism". Congratulations on your big win with totally no negative health consequences for pregnant mothers that miscarry

[Anastasis 23699]

You will not find a post on the topic where I use the phrase "any and all".  You will also not find a post where I say that a court or legislative solution is viable or preferred.  You will not find a post where I reject the notion that there are medical emergencies where an abortion may weighed against the alternative outcomes. And conflating abortions in cases of medical emergency with spontaneous abortions i.e. miscarriages is just further sleight of hand. 

[Captainant 28387]

Lmao yes. Of course the nuance comes out now that women are being made to carry dead fetuses in the name of sky daddy. Now you can dial the rhetoric back because it's apparent how fucking terrible outcomes are when you let the most far-right hardliners dictate the health of women.

Of course I won't find a post with specifically what you've enumerated. I've been over it before - you hide under jordan peterson's rhetorical skirt. You'll argue against a position and support others with far more radical positions than your own and use inflammatory rhetoric. And then when one presumes you maintain your inflammatory position, you can easily retreat to say "well I never said THAT!" and act like you're the victimized and aggrieved party. And then the topic becomes poor misunderstood annie.

Fuck outta here. You wanted no abortions, you got no abortions. Blessed be the fruit!

[Biff Tannen 46061]

7 hours ago, trauma babe said:

That misplaced clump of cells is a human life, dammit!

@maninblack negged this.  what a sicko.

[Biff Tannen 46061]

4 hours ago, Anastasis said:

That case looks bad, and is the result of decisions made by hospital administrators that took an extreme position to manage their perceived risk in a setting where the law allows for abortion in medical emergencies. The doc was ready to go, they were constrained not by law enforcement, but by the hospital administrators interpretation of what the law may or may not cover.

Dude.  This is low.  Even for you.

[maninblack 7975]

Just now, Biff Tannen said:

@maninblack negged this.  what a sicko.

Because this loser chooses to engage in negs instead of dialogue. I'm not above being petty towards you commies

[Biff Tannen 46061]

1 hour ago, maninblack said:

Because this loser chooses to engage in negs instead of dialogue. I'm not above being petty towards you commies

[safe sex 11914]

1 minute ago, maninblack said:

Because this loser chooses to engage in negs instead of dialogue. I'm not above being petty towards you commies

Look at this pathetic chump right here who had his fee fees hurt.

[maninblack 7975]

Just now, trauma babe said:

Look at this pathetic chump right here who had his fee fees hurt.

Oh I'm so hurt. 

[maninblack 7975]

2 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

[Anastasis 23699]

 

3 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Dude.  This is low.  Even for you.

Sorry for reading the article. 

[Anastasis 23699]

12 minutes ago, Captainant said:

I won't find a post with specifically what you've enumerated

Yes, I know. 

[Biff Tannen 46061]

1 hour ago, maninblack said:

A spirit of national masochism prevails, encouraged by an effete corps of impudent snobs who characterize themselves as "intellectuals".

[maninblack 7975]

5 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

A spirit of national masochism prevails, encouraged by an effete corps of impudent snobs who characterize themselves as "intellectuals".

[lemonlime 5503]

14 hours ago, ChuckNorrisActionJeans said:

It's absurd that it's come to this, but doctors and hospitals need to have some courage to push back against delaying proper, life-saving care regarding UNVIABLE embryos. FFS. Save the patient's life and dare the asshole DA to prosecute. Make this shit come to a head. 

So much this.  I work in hospital risk management, but thank god in a blue state, and I can't imagine telling a doctor to do anything other than what is in the patient's best interest under those circumstances.  And then probably hire outside counsel to proactively litigate the issue.

[safe sex 11914]

Doctors are probably less worried about being put in jail and more worried about being assassinated by pro-life fanatics.

[gyroprotagonist 2597]

13 hours ago, Anastasis said:

 

Sorry for reading the article. 

so you don't think the environment of abortion bounties and elected officials trying to out-zealot each other proclaiming they will sue/prosecute/jail/fine any entity that dares to help a pregnant woman may contribute to having doctors looking over their shoulder?  Give me a fucking break trying to pin this on hospital admins.  This is working better than these sick fuck GOP misogynists could have dreamed of.  

[Anastasis 23699]

1 hour ago, gyroprotagonist said:

so you don't think the environment of abortion bounties and elected officials trying to out-zealot each other proclaiming they will sue/prosecute/jail/fine any entity that dares to help a pregnant woman may contribute to having doctors looking over their shoulder?  Give me a fucking break trying to pin this on hospital admins.  This is working better than these sick fuck GOP misogynists could have dreamed of.  

I think that they should take the approach CNAJ lays out and challenge a DA to prosecute a medically necessary abortion. 

 

But yes, those laws are counterproductive and wrong-headed.  I've said as much previously. 

Edited July 28, 2022 by Anastasis

[Captainant 28387]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

I think that they should take the approach CNAJ lays out and challenge a DA to prosecute a medically necessary abortion. 

 

But yes, those laws are counterproductive and wrong-headed.  I've said as much previously. 

Great. They're still the laws that you and yours are getting passed. Sorry that the policies you support result in our state treating women like chattel. Maybe you should put some thoughts and prayers towards how and why that happened.

[Anastasis 23699]

1 minute ago, Captainant said:

Great. They're still the laws that you and yours are getting passed. Sorry that the policies you support result in our state treating women like chattel. Maybe you should put some thoughts and prayers towards how and why that happened.

Oh good, Ant is back to relay his thoughts arrived at based on conversations with the voices in his head. 

[Captainant 28387]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Oh good, Ant is back to relay his thoughts arrived at based on conversations with the voices in his head. 

So you're telling me the other folks in your bible study and at your church don't support SB8? And that they would vote for someone that would repeal that state law?

Or is this another one of those "ignore my actions, listen to my empty words" things?

[Neonmoon 38130]

Commies? Did I miss the posts demanding government control all manufacturing and property? 

[jimmyjazz 46976]

It's mind-boggling that anyone would put the blame on hospital administrators over the fucking fascists who passed these laws in the first place.

[Anastasis 23699]

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

So you're telling me the other folks in your bible study and at your church don't support SB8? And that they would vote for someone that would repeal that state law?

Or is this another one of those "ignore my actions, listen to my empty words" things?

Its interesting to keep getting these looks at the fanciful delusions that have taken root in your mind, and which you are have so thoroughly convinced yourself cannot be questioned.  Really starts to provide some context for some of the dumb shit you say in these exchanges.  

[Biff Tannen 46061]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

Its interesting to keep getting these looks at the fanciful delusions that have taken root in your mind, and which you are have so thoroughly convinced yourself cannot be questioned.  Really starts to provide some context for some of the dumb shit you say in these exchanges.  

You could just answer his questions and put it to bed.

[Anastasis 23699]

22 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

You could just answer his questions and put it to bed.

You know that answering questions from the pit of Ant's fevered brain delusions won't dispense with his nonsense.

If the question is the political alignment of the folks I tend to hang out with on Sunday mornings, both broadly and in terms of the politics around the abortion issue, the answer would be that you would see a broad range of representation from very politically conservative to some of the most granola crunching liberals. There would be core areas of alignment on the moral and theological perspectives in play of course involving the intrinsic value of human life, but wrt to the politics of the nation-state, how they vote, and the actions specifically of the Texas Lege on SB8, it would be all over the place. For what it is worth, according to Pew +10D, and 22 no lean.    

Edited July 28, 2022 by Anastasis

[elfenix 34658]

1 hour ago, Neonmoon said:

Commies? Did I miss the posts demanding government control all manufacturing and property? 

the means of baby production are now in the control of the state.

[gyroprotagonist 2597]

25 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I think that they should take the approach CNAJ lays out and challenge a DA to prosecute a medically necessary abortion. 

 

so to give women needed medical procedures, to save their lives or prevent/reduce physical/mental trauma, the onus is on the admins/docs to play chicken with a DA and dare them to bring charges against them personally?  The fucking DAs are already trying to go after docs in other states who provide legal abortion.  This is your take?  JFC

glad you disapprove of the laws you brought about.  about as helpful as thoughts and prayers lol

[ChuckNorrisActionJeans 2692]

Think y'all got it but just to clarify, my post was not assigning blame to docs/hospitals, or saying the onus should be on them but in cases like the above the R's have brought it to that absurd point -- despite Ana's mischaracterization to the contrary 

[lemonlime 5503]

19 minutes ago, gyroprotagonist said:

so to give women needed medical procedures, to save their lives or prevent/reduce physical/mental trauma, the onus is on the admins/docs to play chicken with a DA and dare them to bring charges against them personally?  The fucking DAs are already trying to go after docs in other states who provide legal abortion.  This is your take?  JFC

glad you disapprove of the laws you brought about.  about as helpful as thoughts and prayers lol

So much this.  And to clarify my earlier post, which I made not having read Ana's drivel as he's been on my ignore list for a while.  I'm troubled by hospital administrators making these decisions and I wish they'd do more to stand up for their medical staff and employees, and the patients at their facilities, for whom these decisions should not be made by administrators in the first place.  I'd like to think if I was in the administrator's shoes I'd tell my medical staff to provide medically necessary care and we would defend them in any suit or prosecution that followed, while screaming from the rooftops about this.  But I'm a billion times more angry that any of these people are being put in the position to have to make these patient care decisions based on irrational laws designed to punish women, and to push medical providers who care for women from practice (at least in "red" states), and risking patients' lives and mental and physical health over demagoguery.  

Edited July 28, 2022 by lemonlime

[Brew 3049]

22 hours ago, Anastasis said:

I've never expected the state to deliver us from barbarism. We are talking Texas where we use lethal injection on developmentally challenged individuals without much shame. Solutions won't come out of the courts and the legislators, and I have never suggested that they would. 

I agree with this. That case looks bad, and is the result of decisions made by hospital administrators that took an extreme position to manage their perceived risk in a setting where the law allows for abortion in medical emergencies. The doc was ready to go, they were constrained not by law enforcement, but by the hospital administrators interpretation of what the law may or may not cover.

Does anybody have a sense as to recent historical numbers on the number of abortions annually that were deemed medical emergencies? And context as to how that compares to abortions overall?  

 

 

I don’t know the numbers, but I do know the OB practices I work with deal with a number of medical emergencies that end in a terminated pregnancy and still born babies induced/born annually. They can’t even agree amongst themselves how to handle some of these situations now because our law here is any terminated pregnancy is an abortion (which is bullshit to call it that) and illegal based on how our law is written. I don’t know the details of your particular states law, but here it is black and white. Prosecutors in the larger districts have come out and said they will not prosecute, but it still has doctors in a no win situation on a medical issue. I don’t know that I would historically consider myself pro choice, but I don’t see how the cases like the 10 year old girl and all the others don’t make everyone realize that where we are is a bad situation.

[Anastasis 23699]

2 minutes ago, ChuckNorrisActionJeans said:

Think y'all got it but just to clarify, my post was not assigning blame to docs/hospitals, or saying the onus should be on them but in cases like the above the R's have brought it to that absurd point -- despite Ana's mischaracterization to the contrary 

I don't think I mischaracterized your post, sorry if you feel that way.   The law provides for exemptions due to medical emergency.  That exemption should be used in cases of medical emergency. 

[Anastasis 23699]

26 minutes ago, gyroprotagonist said:

glad you disapprove of the laws you brought about. 

Shit, I wish I had such power.  I would not waste it on legislating abortion and would expend it on things that could be much more productive. 

[jimmyjazz 46976]

8 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

I'm troubled by hospital administrators making these decisions and I wish they'd do more to stand up for their medical staff and employees, and the patients at their facilities, for whom these decisions should not be made by administrators in the first place.  I'd like to think if I was in the administrator's shoes I'd tell my medical staff to provide medically necessary care and we would defend them in any suit or prosecution that followed, while screaming from the rooftops about this.

The problem is that this is a criminal issue, not a civil issue.  Were it the latter, hospitals could reasonably say they will cover any costs and penalties a doctor might suffer.  A hospital can't serve jail time for a doctor, though.

[gyroprotagonist 2597]

3 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

So much this.  And to clarify my earlier post, which I made not having read Ana's drivel as he's been on my ignore list for a while.  I'm troubled by hospital administrators making these decisions and I wish they'd do more to stand up for their medical staff and employees, and the patients at their facilities, for whom these decisions should not be made by administrators in the first place.  I'd like to think if I was in the administrator's shoes I'd tell my medical staff to provide medically necessary care and we would defend them in any suit or prosecution that followed, while screaming from the rooftops about this.  But I'm a billion times more angry that any of these people are being put in the position to have to make these patient care decisions based on irrational laws designed to punish women, and to push medical providers who care for women from practice (at least in "red" states), and risking patients' lives and mental and physical health over demagoguery.  

now do it for if the hospital is run by a religion and some pederast bishop is in charge whose entire religion thinks women shouldn't make decisions and has never received sex ed whatsoever is making the decisions.  Saw something like 15% of all hospitals are run by the Catholics.  We have religious looneys refusing to fill birth control Rxs at CVS but people expect them stand up and do the right thing when a fetus is involved?

[lemonlime 5503]

3 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

The problem is that this is a criminal issue, not a civil issue.  Were it the latter, hospitals could reasonably say they will cover any costs and penalties a doctor might suffer.  A hospital can't serve jail time for a doctor, though.

 

1 minute ago, gyroprotagonist said:

now do it for if the hospital is run by a religion and some pederast bishop is in charge whose entire religion thinks women shouldn't make decisions and has never received sex ed whatsoever is making the decisions.  Saw something like 15% of all hospitals are run by the Catholics.  We have religious looneys refusing to fill birth control Rxs at CVS but people expect them stand up and do the right thing when a fetus is involved?

Absolutely.  And the blame lies with the lawmakers and their useful idiots who vote for them because they think they'll be able to afford a yacht with Magats in power.

I'm critical of hospital administrators they way pilots were critical of other pilots on the 737MAX thread.  Because I work in hospital risk and I can't imaging telling physicians on our staff some of the stuff I'm seeing is said here.  

And I really didn't mean to bring it up, and surely wouldn't have if I saw Ana's post, or thought it could be construed in any way as excusing what the lawmakers in those states are doing to women there.

But all that said, I'm in a state in which the right to choose is protected, working for a secular institution, and these are decisions I don't foresee having to make, at least until 2025, when MAGA gets control of the federal government.

[Brew 3049]

15 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I don't think I mischaracterized your post, sorry if you feel that way.   The law provides for exemptions due to medical emergency.  That exemption should be used in cases of medical emergency. 

You keep saying that last sentence, but the only case it is allowed is if the mother’s life is in danger as I read it. There are other medical emergencies that would cause a doctor to terminate a pregnancy that aren’t allowable based on the law.

[jimmyjazz 46976]

6 minutes ago, Brew said:

You keep saying that last sentence, but the only case it is allowed is if the mother’s life is in danger as I read it. There are other medical emergencies that would cause a doctor to terminate a pregnancy that aren’t allowable based on the law.

We're already seeing it.  We're seeing cases where the fetus is wholly unviable, with zero chance of life outside the mother's body, and yet doctors are compelled to wait until the mother's life is quite literally in danger to abort, if then.

It's insanity.  

[Anastasis 23699]

26 minutes ago, Brew said:

You keep saying that last sentence, but the only case it is allowed is if the mother’s life is in danger as I read it. There are other medical emergencies that would cause a doctor to terminate a pregnancy that aren’t allowable based on the law.

For the sake of discussion, can you give me an example of a scenario that you would consider a medical emergency that would not be considered such under the law?

Edited July 29, 2022 by Anastasis

[troph 25089]

On 7/26/2022 at 3:33 PM, Brisketexan said:

She shouldn’t be such a dirty slut member of the gender that first ate the forbidden fruit.
You think it’s more complicated than that. It’s not.

You’re right and not calling you out but the irony is that biblically and experientially it’s the male side of the species that is more prone to eating the forbidden fruit and to commit moral failure but I guess that’s the woman’s fault even when it’s not sex related. Silly me, answered my own question.  Fuck Ken Paxton. 

[TexArcher 38816]

11 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

We're already seeing it.  We're seeing cases where the fetus is wholly unviable, with zero chance of life outside the mother's body, and yet doctors are compelled to wait until the mother's life is quite literally in danger to abort, if then.

It's insanity.  

Because it doesn't have anything to do with the fetuses, or the baby humans, or the mamas, or anyone.  This is about controlling people.  This is why abortion was the big kahuna to them.  If they can win on this, this most personal of decisions, in spite of these insane individual cases that they knew were coming, etc, then they know they can win on everything else they are going to shove down our throats.

I keep trying to tell people that Roe was never their endgame.  It was the lynchpin that makes everything else possible for them.

It's exit strategy time, folks.

 

[troph 25089]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

For the sake of discussion, can you give me an example of a scenario that you would consider a medical emergency that would not be considered such under the law?

Not a medical doctor but I am a lawyer and I know hospitals are like banks, deathly afraid of lawsuits even though most businesses run well understand it’s cost of doing business. But given the bounty Hunter statute it’s rather understandable. So Given that fear even cases that are academically clear are going to have to be clear and convincing. “Ok she’s flatlined, bring her back and you can term the pregnancy.” That’s the kind of shit that’s going to happen, but then that’s just health of the mother actually only likely death of the mother, doesn’t count incest or rape of frankly the elephant in the room it’s her fucking body. 

[Biff Tannen 46061]

2 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Shit, I wish I had such power.  I would not waste it on legislating abortion and would expend it on things that could be much more productive. 

Because who could have ever seen this coming?

[scottsins 2040]

Not a medical doctor but I am a lawyer and I know hospitals are like banks, deathly afraid of lawsuits even though most businesses run well understand it’s cost of doing business. But given the bounty Hunter statute it’s rather understandable. So Given that fear even cases that are academically clear are going to have to be clear and convincing. “Ok she’s flatlined, bring her back and you can term the pregnancy.” That’s the kind of shit that’s going to happen, but then that’s just health of the mother actually only likely death of the mother, doesn’t count incest or rape of frankly the elephant in the room it’s her fucking body. 

It’s not about the bounty hunter statute. It’s worse. It’s about the trigger law where a successful abortion is a 1st degree felony with a possible life sentence. I don’t see how anyone can practice in that specialty in Texas given this status quo.

[Brew 3049]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

For the sake of discussion, can you give me an example of a scenario that you would consider a medical emergency that would not be considered such under the law?

Go look at the Elizabeth Weller pregnancy issue that was made public. What happens when you have a nonviable pregnancy but the mothers life isn’t in immediate danger? Water breaks at 18 weeks, pregnancy has virtually zero chance of viability, mother isn’t dying today but doctors would end the pregnancy under any prior circumstance?

What about a case where a mother is diagnosed with cancer and treatment is dangerous to an early term fetus? What about an older women that has an unplanned pregnancy that puts her in an extremely high risk situation where the doctor believes her life is in danger later in the pregnancy but is not today? What about a prenatal screening that shows the baby has Trisomy 13 or some other catastrophic early life death sentence? Should the mother have to carry to term, have the baby, all the while knowing the baby will not live to see 1 or likely end up stillborn?

What qualifies as a medical emergency? Does the fact that it will become a medical emergency later in the pregnancy but isn’t today valid for terminating today?

[Willfully Horn 8204]

On 7/27/2022 at 8:14 PM, Anastasis said:

I've never expected the state to deliver us from barbarism. We are talking Texas where we use lethal injection on developmentally challenged individuals without much shame. Solutions won't come out of the courts and the legislators, and I have never suggested that they would. 

Funny that you would allow yourself to be known as someone willing to give barbarians the power to do so. Simple enough to say the state ought not have that power. Ever. But, that’s not what you have to say..

[Brew 3049]

2 minutes ago, scottsins said:

It’s not about the bounty hunter statute. It’s worse. It’s about the trigger law where a successful abortion is a 1st degree felony with a possible life sentence. I don’t see how anyone can practice in that specialty in Texas given this status quo.

Current OB’s are worried about future recruitment issues and how it is going to impact graduates and where they decide to practice. Maybe more clarity will be legislated in, but right now the unknown would make me think twice about practicing in the south.

[elfenix 34658]

what anastasis is eliding is that "dead fetus that is likely to cause sepsis but hasn't yet" isn't a "medical emergency" necessary to "save the mother's life," even though the sepsis would be.

Edited July 29, 2022 by elfenix