Official Thread for Abortion Demagoguery

[Anastasis 23699]

10 minutes ago, elfenix said:

there's not a lot of people who use religious terminology as their internet username.  and in the US, at least, i'm going to guess they tilt pretty hard in one direction on this topic. 

 

There is nothing in this post that is founded on a religious worldview, nor a particular tradition's theology. I mean, unless we consider modern biomedical ethics a religion. Which I suppose we could debate if we really unpacked the underlying philosophy.   

 

  

47 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

In every abortion there are at least two genetically distinct human entities involved.  An appropriate application of biomedical ethics requires weighing the ethical principles involved from the perspectives of each, and perhaps other perspectives as well.

This isn't an extremist position. The assertion of a radical autonomy that overrides the other principles (e.g. justice, beneficence) weighed from the other perspectives at all times is, otoh, an extremist position. There is good bit of literature on the application of bioethical principles in this setting, arriving at a wide range of conclusions. This isn't just shit I made up to be an asshole.

 

[safe sex 11913]

Why won't someone think of the men?!

[elfenix 34658]

  

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

 

There is nothing in this post that is founded on a religious worldview, nor a particular tradition's theology. I mean, unless we consider modern biomedical ethics a religion. Which I suppose we could debate if we really unpacked the underlying philosophy.  

Now you're doing the thing you accuse captainant of.

 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by elfenix

[Smax 3800]

It's mind blowing how much influence the vocal minority have in this country

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19279]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

In every abortion there are at least two genetically distinct human entities involved.  An appropriate application of biomedical ethics requires weighing the ethical principles involved from the perspectives of each, and perhaps other perspectives as well.

This isn't an extremist position. The assertion of a radical autonomy that overrides the other principles (e.g. justice, beneficence) weighed from the other perspectives at all times is, otoh, an extremist position. There is good bit of literature on the application of bioethical principles in this setting, arriving at a wide range of conclusions. This isn't just shit I made up to be an asshole.

    

Go fuck yourself.  

[Smax 3800]

Go fuck yourself.  

You know they enjoy these type of responses from woman

[ChuckNorrisActionJeans 2692]

2 hours ago, Anastasis said:

In every abortion there are at least two genetically distinct human entities involved.  An appropriate application of biomedical ethics requires weighing the ethical principles involved from the perspectives of each, and perhaps other perspectives as well.

This isn't an extremist position. The assertion of a radical autonomy that overrides the other principles (e.g. justice, beneficence) weighed from the other perspectives at all times is, otoh, an extremist position. There is good bit of literature on the application of bioethical principles in this setting, arriving at a wide range of conclusions. This isn't just shit I made up to be an asshole.

    

Fetus ain't got no perspective. It fetus. No think. No breathe. No care. No talk. No walk. If you like your fetus, you can keep your fetus.

[Tom 2960]

21 minutes ago, ChuckNorrisActionJeans said:

Fetus ain't got no perspective. It fetus. No think. No breathe. No care. No talk. No walk. If you like your fetus, you can keep your fetus.

You’d think that, but what you have to understand is there are apparently too many people in this country who saw “Looks Who’s Talking,” saw an embryo talking to itself, and thought they were watching a documentary.

Who cares if a woman chooses to abort because it’s a medical emergency or if she just doesn’t feel ready to bring a child into this world?  A fetus should have no rights, and it’s opinion doesn’t matter because it doesn’t have one.  It doesn’t think, feel, or even know it exists.  Good grief.  It’s never going to care or regret it wasn’t born.  
 

Unless you or your wife is the one carrying, you shouldn’t give two shits about someone else’s abortion.  People need to mind their own business.

Edited July 29, 2022 by Tom

[ultimaton 2985]

Summarizing the last three or four pages, for those just tuning in:

[Anastasis 23699]

3 hours ago, ChuckNorrisActionJeans said:

Fetus ain't got no perspective. It fetus. No think. No breathe. No care. No talk. No walk. If you like your fetus, you can keep your fetus.

This is an instrumental approach to assessing the value of human life. I think that many people would have a problem with this approach once the broader implications outside this particular discussion are clear, if not generally speaking, than once we really dug in on the instruments. But y'all go ahead and tell me more about extremists as it relates to this discussion. 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by Anastasis

[scottsins 2040]

TX has the heartbeat statute doesn’t it? I read that as a fetus without a heartbeat can be aborted although it’s not 100% clear because it say once a heartbeat is detected. Does that mean it’s off limits at that point or only while there is a heartbeat. TN for instance doesn’t have a medical emergency or heartbeat statute. Right now, any pregnancy termination here is illegal.

We no longer have a heartbeat statute. Well, we might, but we are now under a previously passed “trigger” law that went into effect 30 days after Dobbs was announced. The CRIMINAL statute subjects the provider to a 5 years to life sentence for terminating a pregnancy post-fertilization.

[troph 25089]

3 hours ago, Anastasis said:

This is an instrumental approach to assessing the value of human life. I think that many people would have a problem with this approach once the broader implications outside this particular discussion are clear, if not generally speaking, than once we really dug in on the instruments. But y'all go ahead and tell me more about extremists as it relates to this discussion. 

 

 

Mid to late term elective abortions are an infinitesimal percentage of total abortions. Instead I’m talking to a good friend who is pregnant about whether she needs to move to another state to have her baby in the event shit goes south with the pregnancy or delivery.  That’s the real implication, taking decisions out of the doctor patient relationship and putting them in the hands of demigods who are simply interested in power. They get to keep their power and evangelicals get to feel like they did their good deed by pulling the lever for R. Yay America!! 
 

meanwhile 22 states are telling the feds to EABODs re title IX, that shits about to get aborted, EEOC there coming for you next, and the list goes on and on. just more wasp stings they are harmless. Yay America! 
 

 

[CTC2 2858]

10 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

Per usual, in the current Republican Party, when you break down all the rhetorical walls, you realize they’re just horrible people who want horrible things. 

Who worry too much about what everyone else is doing when they should just mind their own fucking business.  Go read the speech that smug asshole Alto gave in Rome.  And he wonders why religion is on the decline in the US.  It's because of pricks like him being a terrible representative for it.

[Captainant 28387]

16 hours ago, troph said:

That’s the real implication, taking decisions out of the doctor patient relationship and putting them in the hands of demigods who are simply interested in power.

Just so you know, that's literally the field annie works in. For-profit "health insurance" loves nothing more than to act as a demigod standing between patients and doctors to dictate what level of care you deserve to get

[Anastasis 23699]

it’s funny watching Ant do the “just so you know” to people that I have literally met in real life and travelled to multiple OU  games with. Seems like ages ago. 

[ChuckNorrisActionJeans 2692]

21 hours ago, Anastasis said:

This is an instrumental approach to assessing the value of human life. I think that many people would have a problem with this approach once the broader implications outside this particular discussion are clear, if not generally speaking, than once we really dug in on the instruments. But y'all go ahead and tell me more about extremists as it relates to this discussion. 

 

 

You know this but the broader point is this: one could reasonably hold a view that there should be a balancing of rights, and by that I mean that at some stage there should be a consideration of society's interest in fetal life vs. the mother's rights. But that is gone because SCOTUS said the mother has NO rights in this area. None. No right to privacy, or medical care, or bodily autonomy -- only what the state deigns to confer. So now, there is no balancing in red states.

So it's not only that that the rights of a fetus are equal to those of the mother. Which is outrageous enough. These extreme laws dictate that the fetus's rights, whether its life is even viable or not, are SUPERIOR to the human who is independently breathing, walking, thinking, whose body is used to sustain said fetus, and who is a citizen or resident who presumably is allowed legal protections against unreasonable search and seizure, and all that other good constitutional stuff. But if a fetus or embryo exists, the carrier is excluded from making any decisions impacting her very life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness based on the arbitrary state borders in which she lives.

Anyone who isn't screaming against this insanity is complicit. 

Edited July 30, 2022 by ChuckNorrisActionJeans

[elfenix 34658]

21 hours ago, Anastasis said:

This is an instrumental approach to assessing the value of human life. I think that many people would have a problem with this approach once the broader implications outside this particular discussion are clear, if not generally speaking, than once we really dug in on the instruments. But y'all go ahead and tell me more about extremists as it relates to this discussion. 

 

 

you could have just said racist eugenicists again. 

[Anastasis 23699]

6 minutes ago, elfenix said:

you could have just said racist eugenicists again. 

I thought about just posting text with a similar formulation that was used by the Romans when determining whether it was ok to set out a newborn, but decided against it as unnecessary and detracting. Soranus’ Gynecology; Book II. 

Edited July 30, 2022 by Anastasis

[fattyflattie 4640]

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

Just so you know, that's literally the field annie works in. For-profit "health insurance" loves nothing more than to act as a demigod standing between patients and doctors to dictate what level of care you deserve to get

How is the not for profit insurance you use better? Or do you purchase for profit insurance and protect yourself and family like the rest of us? 

[jimmyjazz 46976]

2 hours ago, Anastasis said:

it’s funny watching Ant do the “just so you know” to people that I have literally met in real life and travelled to multiple OU  games with. Seems like ages ago. 

Do you deny what he says?

[Brisketexan 106621]

You know this but the broader point is this: one could reasonably hold a view that there should be a balancing of rights, and by that I mean that at some stage there should be a consideration of society's interest in fetal life vs. the mother's rights. But that is gone because SCOTUS said the mother has NO rights in this area. None. No right to privacy, or medical care, or bodily autonomy -- only what the state deigns to confer. So now, there is no balancing in red states.
So it's not only that that the rights of a fetus are equal to those of the mother. Which is outrageous enough. These extreme laws dictate that the fetus's rights, whether its life is even viable or not, are SUPERIOR to the human who is independently breathing, walking, thinking, whose body is used to sustain said fetus, and who is a citizen or resident who presumably is allowed legal protections against unreasonable search and seizure, and all that other good constitutional stuff. But if a fetus or embryo exists, the carrier is excluded from making any decisions impacting her very life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness based on the arbitrary state borders in which she lives.
Anyone who isn't screaming against this insanity is complicit. 

But Ana says infanticide and eugenics. GAME OVER.
I’m sure his daughter, if somehow faced with the abortion question, for any reason, will appreciate her dad’s both-sides-ism and will SUPER appreciate that when her right to control her own body is even mentioned, he will immediately cite a 2,000 yr old Roman text that mentions infanticide. That’s the sort of loving parental guidance and help every daughter wants.
Or, maybe they’ll have realized that he’s a sophomoric shit who doesn’t actually give a rat’s ass about them, and they’ll have broken off contact with him.

[Sawbonz 28081]

1 hour ago, ChuckNorrisActionJeans said:

You know this but the broader point is this: one could reasonably hold a view that there should be a balancing of rights, and by that I mean that at some stage there should be a consideration of society's interest in fetal life vs. the mother's rights. But that is gone because SCOTUS said the mother has NO rights in this area. None. No right to privacy, or medical care, or bodily autonomy -- only what the state deigns to confer. So now, there is no balancing in red states.

So it's not only that that the rights of a fetus are equal to those of the mother. Which is outrageous enough. These extreme laws dictate that the fetus's rights, whether its life is even viable or not, are SUPERIOR to the human who is independently breathing, walking, thinking, whose body is used to sustain said fetus, and who is a citizen or resident who presumably is allowed legal protections against unreasonable search and seizure, and all that other good constitutional stuff. But if a fetus or embryo exists, the carrier is excluded from making any decisions impacting her very life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness based on the arbitrary state borders in which she lives.

Anyone who isn't screaming against this insanity is complicit. 

I came here to post something similar. There are completely secular biomedical ethics/ morality based arguments to be made that a healthy 30 + week fetus should have legal status/rights. I would imagine the number of women seeking an abortion in such a situation approaches zero. 
 

But that is not what we are dealing with given these “heartbeat” and Roe trigger laws. A bit more than half the population of Texas no longer has bodily autonomy. Not only that, pregnancy just got a hell of a lot more dangerous in this state. Within the year someone on this board will know a woman who lost her life because of these laws. 

[Anastasis 23699]

Some of y’all engage in really weird fantasies involving other posters their families and their business. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

26 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

But Ana says infanticide and eugenics. GAME OVER.
I’m sure his daughter, if somehow faced with the abortion question, for any reason, will appreciate her dad’s both-sides-ism and will SUPER appreciate that when her right to control her own body is even mentioned, he will immediately cite a 2,000 yr old Roman text that mentions infanticide. That’s the sort of loving parental guidance and help every daughter wants.
Or, maybe they’ll have realized that he’s a sophomoric shit who doesn’t actually give a rat’s ass about them, and they’ll have broken off contact with him.

When it comes to the abortion question, the point raised by @ChuckNorrisActionJeans regarding balancing is reasonable and it is a pity that real and earnest effort has not been made in some of the ways that can assist in family planning.

However, the main and glaring thorn in a lot of people's hides is that it is women and not men making the decision.

[jimmyjazz 46976]

9 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Some of y’all engage in really weird fantasies involving other posters their families and their business. 

Some of y'all (y'all) should answer some fucking questions instead of dancing around the obvious.

[Brisketexan 106621]

Some of y'all (y'all) should answer some fucking questions instead of dancing around the obvious.

This. Ana assents to a world where his daughter does not have the most basic human right: the right to control her own body. And his response to that is to post references to Roman bullshit.

[elfenix 34658]

a government that has the authority to ban abortion has all the authority it needs to require abortion.  for those who are concerned about genocide. 

Edited July 30, 2022 by elfenix

[troph 25089]

4 hours ago, Captainant said:

Just so you know, that's literally the field annie works in. For-profit "health insurance" loves nothing more than to act as a demigod standing between patients and doctors to dictate what level of care you deserve to get

I know the guy. He saw me shoulder check an okie, he didn’t realize why - it was all that internal angst. Btw I get my anger toward okies from my mother, she ran away from home at 17 so she didn’t have to be an okie. Eyes of texas baby.  And fuck Ken Paxton. 

[Anastasis 23699]

6 minutes ago, troph said:

I know the guy. He saw me shoulder check an okie, he didn’t realize why - it was all that internal angst. Btw I get my anger toward okies from my mother, she ran away from home at 17 so she didn’t have to be an okie. Eyes of texas baby.  And fuck Ken Paxton. 

Yeah. Not sure that I really understood what was going on there. But can’t believe you left out drinking red wine out of solos in a minivan on the trek north. I like the story we heard next day about breakfast with your parents, but that one isn’t mine to relate.  

Edited July 31, 2022 by Anastasis

[troph 25089]

13 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Yeah. Not sure that I really understood what was going on there. But can’t believe you left out drinking red wine out of solos in a minivan on the trek north. I like the story we heard next day about breakfast with your parents, but that one isn’t mine to relate.  

Ex In-laws. Not my parents.  And it was really good red wine.  You never heard me criticize John mackovic’s wine and cheese style, troph approves. 

[atomheartbevo 90547]

So Republicans are getting rid of the death penalty, right?

[Neonmoon 38130]

3 hours ago, elfenix said:

a government that has the authority to ban abortion has all the authority it needs to require abortion.  for those who are concerned about genocide. 

Yeah but have you heard about biomedical ethics? 

[Anastasis 23699]

39 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Yeah but have you heard about biomedical ethics? 

 

[Homercles 10206]

So it’s not just 200+ year old documents we are citing as reasons to control people, or even some infinitely translated/rewritten religious text…but now it’s come down to ancient Roman practices?  
 

WTF.gif

[atomheartbevo 90547]

7 minutes ago, Homercles said:

So it’s not just 200+ year old documents we are citing as reasons to control people, or even some infinitely translated/rewritten religious text…but now it’s come down to ancient Roman practices?  

WTF.gif

So….That’s it, a neighbor’s daughter is getting married soon and I will be citing the Epic of Gilgamesh for what’s going to happen that night…

Quote

"He is king, he does whatever he wants... takes the girl from her mother and uses her, the warrior's daughter, the young man's bride."

[Anastasis 23699]

Softly suggested that I was sharpening my iron on the exchanges taking place here.  But that is clearly not the case. 

[Fastbreak 4012]

So it’s not just 200+ year old documents we are citing as reasons to control people, or even some infinitely translated/rewritten religious text…but now it’s come down to ancient Roman practices?  
 
WTF.gif

I only follow what is written in the holiest of Harry Potter pages:

“Love as powerful as your mother’s for you leaves it’s own mark. To have been loved so deeply, even though the person who loved us is gone, will give us some protection forever.”
― Albus Dumbledore, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone, Chapter 17

[Mole 4338]

Of all the threads on the many versions of this site, I can’t think of any that better live up to their title.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19279]

On 7/29/2022 at 2:35 PM, Smax said:

On 7/29/2022 at 2:33 PM, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Go fuck yourself.  

You know they enjoy these type of responses from woman

No they don’t.  They want women to know their place, which for most of these shitheads is in the kitchen, barefoot and pregnant.  It’s about control and they don’t like to be challenged.

[Homercles 10206]

2 hours ago, Fastbreak said:

I only follow what is written in the holiest of Harry Potter pages:

“Love as powerful as your mother’s for you leaves it’s own mark. To have been loved so deeply, even though the person who loved us is gone, will give us some protection forever.”
― Albus Dumbledore, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone, Chapter 17

But he was gay -GOP 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19279]

9 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Softly suggested that I was sharpening my iron on the exchanges taking place here.  But that is clearly not the case. 

You are a real cunt.  Do us all a favor and take your faux intellectualism out of here.

[David Dennison 19441]

Your tax dollars hard at work.

Edited July 31, 2022 by David Dennison

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19279]

8 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Your tax dollars hard at work.

State sanctioned religion, folks.  Fuck Texas.

[elfenix 34658]

15 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Your tax dollars hard at work.

fIsCaL rEsPoNsIbIlItY

[GhostOfTomJoad 9483]

Wait, so expectant mothers can earn points towards diapers and baby clothes by enrolling in xian study classes? How many diapers do they get for being able to quote Ezekiel 23:20?

Edited July 31, 2022 by GhostOfTomJoad

[David Dennison 19441]

On 7/29/2022 at 6:01 PM, Anastasis said:

This is an instrumental approach to assessing the value of human life. I think that many people would have a problem with this approach once the broader implications outside this particular discussion are clear, if not generally speaking, than once we really dug in on the instruments. But y'all go ahead and tell me more about extremists as it relates to this discussion. 

You live in a society that punishes its citizens for being poor by funneling resources to the rich and you're concerned about the broader implications of the the abortion debate as it pertains to assessing the value of human life? 

Seriously?

[Biff Tannen 46061]

1 hour ago, David Dennison said:

Your tax dollars hard at work.

Yet another reason my wife and I are most likely leaving this state.  This is not ok.  Especially with my tax dollars. 

[mchookem 16728]

1 hour ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

You are a real cunt.  Do us all a favor and take your faux intellectualism out of here.

he's a more polite Ignatius J Reilly.

Edited July 31, 2022 by mchookem

[Anastasis 23699]

47 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

You live in a society that punishes its citizens for being poor by funneling resources to the rich and you're concerned about the broader implications of the the abortion debate as it pertains to assessing the value of human life? 

Seriously?

Does human life have intrinsic value?

[Goofyboy 3428]

Does human life have intrinsic value?

No. Almost any two people can make a human. That human is important to them. Beyond that, most people don’t give a shit about people they have never met.