Joe Biden 2021

[Hank Scorpio 17729]

He also posts here as Ghost of LL. 

[pyrohornIII 4814]

2 hours ago, cactusflinthead said:

 

An example of that empathy:

Quote

Kindness Towards a Child Isn't the Highest Bar for an American President, But Here We Are

Joe Biden brought his gentle empathy to the memorial service for Capitol Police Officer Billy Evans.

By Charles P. Pierce

Apr 13, 2021

 

 

AMR ALFIKYGETTY IMAGES

One of my good high school friends buried both my parents. His father buried three of my four grandparents and his grandfather buried mine. They are the third and fourth generations of their family burying other members of other families. (The Irish way of death is nothing if not a family business at both ends.) A good undertaker is someone who can be there without getting in the way. The undertaker is omnipresent and yet nearly invisible, never present until needed. Then, their presence is nearly spectral. Their only job is to make sure things run in as efficient a manner as possible, and to do so with quiet humanity, so the family can go through the formal ritual of mourning without being swamped with extraneous details.

I was thinking on Tuesday that the president would be a terrific undertaker. First of all, he’s been proven to be very good at wakes and funerals. Second, he looks the part; I can envision him in the long black cashmere coat, wrangling cars into line for the drive to the cemetery. And last, and most important, he has a deep and abiding empathy. He carries his personal tragedies with great dignity, and employs them only when it is absolutely called for. On Tuesday, as they conducted a memorial service for Capitol Police Officer Billy Evans in the Rotunda, he deployed it in the gentlest way possible.

 

 

Biden deployed his empathy in the gentlest way possible.

AMR ALFIKYGETTY IMAGES

One of Evans’s daughters was fidgety, playing with a small replica of the Capitol dome. Fidgety kids are one of those extraneous details that great undertakers discreetly handle for The Family. The little girl dropped the toy on the floor. It bounced a little ways away from where she was sitting. The president instantly popped out of his chair, picked up the child’s toy, and handed it back to her, stopping to talk to her, too,

To compare this moment of humble humanity to anything having to do with the president’s predecessor is to cheapen it unforgivably. These are different species of homo sapiens, as different from each other as swans are from vultures. Kindness towards a child would seem to be a baseline indicator of civility and grace but, nonetheless, there it was, in front of god and the world. That it seemed so powerful is not just because of what it was, but because of all that it was not.

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a36110787/joe-biden-pick-up-child-toy-capitol-police-memorial-service/

[pyrohornIII 4814]

5 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

Just looking about it from a cost/benefit standpoint, I don't understand why we would pull out.  Our cost is maintaining just 4,000 troops in-country, of whom none have been killed in more than a year.  That strikes me as a pretty damned low cost.  And in return, we get a strategic foothold in Central Asia and we keep the Taliban from turning the place back into a sanctuary for extremism.

Thought I read somewhere where Biden and team were looking to re-invigorate the Peace Corps.  Maybe they plan to pull out the 4000 troops and weaponry and replace it with 4000 PC types in humanitarian type aid?     I guess I keep hoping someone up there took 'Charlie Wilson's War' to heart.

[BurntOrange&White 39932]

There will always be unrest there, nothing will change that at all. 

[Biff Tannen 45683]

1 hour ago, BurntOrange&White said:

There will always be unrest there, nothing will change that at all. 

Seemed like they were doing pretty well back in the 1960s.

[Js1 85333]

7 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Seemed like they were doing pretty well back in the 1960s.

Make Afghanistan Great Again?

[washparkhorn 9939]

35 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Seemed like they were doing pretty well back in the 1960s.

Kabul - 1960's prior to the religious conservative de-evolution.

https://mymodernmet.com/dr-bill-podlich-afghanistan-pre-taliban/

Edited April 13, 2021 by washparkhorn
link

[Anastasis 23469]

11 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Kabul - 1960's prior to the religious conservative de-evolution.

https://mymodernmet.com/dr-bill-podlich-afghanistan-pre-taliban/

Western Powers. Stirring the pot in the Middle East and Asia since the 19th century.  But hey, the cost/benefit analysis says we're getting a good return on our investment.  

[Ghost of LL 15531]

6 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Western Powers. Stirring the pot in the Middle East and Asia since the 19th century.  But hey, the cost/benefit analysis says we're getting a good return on our investment.  

Are we not?

[Anastasis 23469]

4 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

Are we not?

Do you think that the outcomes associated with Western Power interventionism in the region has been a net positive or a net negative for them?  For us?  Let's just roll with the period from 1960 to current day. 

[Ghost of LL 15531]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

Do you think that the outcomes associated with Western Power interventionism in the region has been a net positive or a net negative for them?  For us?  Let's just roll with the period from 1960 to current day. 

That's not what we're talking about.  We're talking about 2021.  In Afghanistan.  

In 2021 Afghanistan, we're keeping 4,000 troops in country--without a fatality--in order to keep a foothold in a strategic area and preventing a Taliban takeover.  I think that's a good ROI.

If you want to talk about history, we can talk history.  But I'm talking about the present and the future.  History can inform our decisionmaking.  But it's a poor substitute for analysis of current conditions.

[JimmyJames 12271]

44 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Kabul - 1960's prior to the religious conservative de-evolution.

https://mymodernmet.com/dr-bill-podlich-afghanistan-pre-taliban/

Kinda reminds me of America today before the current Republican Party takes over America again.

[Anastasis 23469]

20 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

History can inform our decisionmaking. 

It would be a great start if American foreign policy decision making would consider more than just a moment in time, with no regard to how we got to this place, our role in that, and what we might be able to learn about the outcomes to be expected in the future. 

[Ghost of LL 15531]

8 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

It would be a great start if American foreign policy decision making would consider more than just a moment in time, with no regard to how we got to this place, our role in that, and what we might be able to learn about the outcomes to be expected in the future. 

How the fuck does "how we got to this place" or "our role in that" impact either the cost or the benefit of staying beyond September 2021?

I mean, if you want to engage in some self-flagellation about our support for Zia-ul-Haq or some shit, fine.  I think that's silliness dressing itself up as sophistication, but whatever.  How the fuck does that inform what we do today in Afghanistan in this specific circumstance?

[Anastasis 23469]

Just now, Ghost of LL said:

How the fuck does "how we got to this place" or "our role in that" impact either the cost or the benefit of staying beyond September 2021?

You forgot "what we might be able to learn about the outcomes to be expected in the future". 

[Ghost of LL 15531]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

You forgot "what we might be able to learn about the outcomes to be expected in the future". 

Ok--what might we be able to learn, specifically?  How does it inform the cost/benefit assessment I laid out?

[Anastasis 23469]

Cost/benefit analysis over constrained time periods so that we don't have to consider any actual negative realized benefits/outcomes, and can focus instead on on theoretical positive benefits/outcomes uninformed by historical reality. Sounds like a perfectly American calculus to making foreign policy decisions. 

[High Plains Drifter 11049]

 

Is there a separate thread for Dr. Biden?

 

 

[Js1 85333]

 

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

On 4/9/2021 at 12:33 PM, bad_teammate said:

Most *clap* Progressive *clap* Administration *clap*

 

 

one looks at that number and one can't help but imagine all the good things we "just can't afford to do." 

[Ghost of LL 15531]

34 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Cost/benefit analysis over constrained time periods so that we don't have to consider any actual negative realized benefits/outcomes, and can focus instead on on theoretical positive benefits/outcomes uninformed by historical reality. Sounds like a perfectly American calculus to making foreign policy decisions. 

So I infer that you don't have any actual facts or data to add, just platitudes.

If you want to make an argument, then make an argument.  But this "there's probably an argument to be made based on stuff that happened in the past" nonsense is tiresome.

[Anastasis 23469]

6 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

So I infer that you don't have any actual facts or data to add, just platitudes.

If you want to make an argument, then make an argument.  But this "there's probably an argument to be made based on stuff that happened in the past" nonsense is tiresome.

You led with the platitudes, my friend.

"we get a strategic foothold in Central Asia and we keep the Taliban from turning the place back into a sanctuary for extremism."

But neocon platitudes don't count!

If you want to argue cost/benefit analysis supports your position, helps if your frame of reference includes both historical assessment of cost/benefit and future projections.  I am happy to consider your actual facts and data related to both. Go for it. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Cost/benefit analysis often gets us into a lot of trouble, like slavery and genocide. 

[Ghost of LL 15531]

You led with the platitudes, my friend.
"we get a strategic foothold in Central Asia and we keep the Taliban from turning the place back into a sanctuary for extremism."
But neocon platitudes don't count!
If you want to argue cost/benefit analysis supports your position, helps if your frame of reference includes both historical assessment of cost/benefit and future projections.  I am happy to consider your actual facts and data related to both. Go for it. 

“I’m not doing platitudes; you’re doing platitudes.” Jesus, man—c’mon.

So between this and the transgender thread, it’s become pretty apparent that you’ve become nothing other than a fucking troll, haven’t you?

[Bruh Man 3160]

I suspect this is why they've started nipping at Kamala. If you watched his eulogy yesterday, you can see why it's hard to get any personal attacks to stick.

 

[Red Five 40857]

Ah, politics. How I hate it. "Damn, this sucks! Biden's a legit good guy doing good things! How do we tear him the fuck down??". 

[tantric superman 4667]

16 hours ago, Anastasis said:

If you want to argue cost/benefit analysis supports your position, helps if your frame of reference includes both historical assessment of cost/benefit and future projections.  I am happy to consider your actual facts and data related to both. Go for it

Hard to argue cost benefits.  But I think it's a pretty valuable benefit to retain a foothold in the region (that was a hard as fuck Risk country to keep, if memory serves) as well as the idea that our relatively small presence is a protection against the fucking scum of the earth folks taking control and sending women back home from school.

[mdmost 43001]

40 minutes ago, Red Five said:

Ah, politics. How I hate it. "Damn, this sucks! Biden's a legit good guy doing good things! How do we tear him the fuck down??". 

Right, qualities like empathy and statesmanship have been lacking the past 4 years and they're having a hard time when the other side does it so well. 

[Js1 85333]

44 minutes ago, Red Five said:

Ah, politics. How I hate it. "Damn, this sucks! Biden's a legit good guy doing good things! How do we tear him the fuck down??". 

He’s still one of the few candidates in the modern era to have his favorable ratings go UP during a presidential campaign. 

[Anastasis 23469]

38 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

Hard to argue cost benefits.  But I think it's a pretty valuable benefit to retain a foothold in the region (that was a hard as fuck Risk country to keep, if memory serves) as well as the idea that our relatively small presence is a protection against the fucking scum of the earth folks taking control and sending women back home from school.

From Wapo article on the withdrawal yesterday.  Here is a broader accounting of the costs of our nearly 2 decade long engagement in Afghanistan.

The war has cost trillions of dollars in addition to the lives of more than 2,000 U.S. service members. At least 100,000 Afghan civilians have been injured or killed.

Joe is right, it's long past time to bring our troops home. All of them.  If want want to do a cost benefit analysis, what we should consider are the incremental costs and benefits of keeping how ever many thousands of troops y'all want to keep there over the presence that will remain without regard to the troop withdrawal.  Notably a foothold of CIA operatives and troops stationed at the Embassy and throughout the country.  They aren't going anywhere. We'll still have plenty of spooks and troops in those roles to fulfill the neocon obsessions of people like Bill Kristol. A separate, but interesting, discussion could involve the cost/benefit analysis of the CIA running their operations in the middle east and central asia and beyond.  But again, hard to have a real discussion on that balance without historical context and outcomes to inform the discussion. 

 

13 hours ago, Ghost of LL said:

“I’m not doing platitudes; you’re doing platitudes.” Jesus, man—c’mon.

So between this and the transgender thread, it’s become pretty apparent that you’ve become nothing other than a fucking troll, haven’t you?

 

Just for the record, I never said "I'm not doing platitudes".  A better recounting is that you whined about platitudes and told me to bring data and facts, while you led with the former and provide none of the latter. If you are concerned about trolling, perhaps check the mirror.

[Reynolds Woodcock 4740]

Jesus fucking Christ, these “foothold” in the Middle East arguments for staying in Afghanistan are brutal. It’s no wonder so many of you were duped by Republicans most of your adult life until Trump came along. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

Maybe listen to what he has to say, it begins in a few minutes:

 

[Bateshorn 9927]

Declare victory and leave. Long over due.

[NWBuck 8564]

16 minutes ago, Bateshorn said:

Declare victory and leave. Long over due.

Didn't we do that already?

[Bateshorn 9927]

32 minutes ago, NWBuck said:

Didn't we do that already?

It’s the leaving part...

['stache 21815]

20 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Western Powers. Stirring the pot in the Middle East and Asia since the 19th century.  But hey, the cost/benefit analysis says we're getting a good return on our investment.  

I watched a lot of these little short videos early during the covid shutdowns and this one makes a lot of sense to me, intentionally drawing borders to keep that region in constant conflict for our own benefit. It's a short video and I acknowledge it is almost certainly more complex but I trust this is well researched and not just speaking out his butt. His other videos are usually pretty interesting and entertaining.

 

[sheeeit 129]

20 hours ago, Ghost of LL said:

That's not what we're talking about.  We're talking about 2021.  In Afghanistan.  

In 2021 Afghanistan, we're keeping 4,000 troops in country--without a fatality--in order to keep a foothold in a strategic area and preventing a Taliban takeover.  I think that's a good ROI.

If you want to talk about history, we can talk history.  But I'm talking about the present and the future.  History can inform our decisionmaking.  But it's a poor substitute for analysis of current conditions.

A good argument can be made for staying but the cost you speak of, specifically no casualties, is temporary.  The former admin made a deal with the Taliban to be out by May and, in return, the Taliban agreed to basically stand down.  
 

But they , the Taliban, have already said they will go back to being the terrorists that they are if the May deadline is extended.  When Americans start dying again the cost/benefit isn’t going to mean much.   

[jimmyjazz 45945]

1 hour ago, sheeeit said:

A good argument can be made for staying but the cost you speak of, specifically no casualties, is temporary.  The former admin made a deal with the Taliban to be out by May and, in return, the Taliban agreed to basically stand down.  
 

But they , the Taliban, have already said they will go back to being the terrorists that they are if the May deadline is extended.  When Americans start dying again the cost/benefit isn’t going to mean much.   

Bless your heart.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

2 hours ago, Reynolds Woodcock said:

Jesus fucking Christ, these “foothold” in the Middle East arguments for staying in Afghanistan are brutal. It’s no wonder so many of you were duped by Republicans most of your adult life until Trump came along. 

I used to be in this camp long ago...that the military presence represents some kind of strategic value.  It doesn’t.  It doesn’t help our national security, it doesn’t make America safer, and it’s wrong to use combat troops with no clearly defined winnable objective.  They’re basically sitting around waiting to get shot. 

[atomheartbevo 89663]

On 4/12/2021 at 7:30 AM, bad_teammate said:

The press SHOULD be seeking as much access as possible and complaining when they don't get it.

The problem is that their actual motivations are so pathetic (stir up Trump-related drama) that I can't sympathize with them.

On 4/12/2021 at 8:29 AM, wildcat09 said:

Yup.

They should be adversarial. They shouldn't be petty and stupid.

It's not that they are petty and stupid.

It's that they are lazy.

When Trump would tweet out a bunch of stupid shit, many in the press could grab their laptops, crank out several hundred words about what Trump said and how it was incorrect/bad/damaging.etc., and then they were done for the day.  Of course, I'm oversimplifying a bit, but you have plenty who had daily quotas, and quoting and fact-checking Trump made their lives incredibly easy.

With Biden, they are having to dig around more, and having to look for stories to write about, rather than having their browser automatically load up Trump's twitter feed as the homepage.

[wildcat09 29354]

1 minute ago, atomheartbevo said:

It's not that they are petty and stupid.

It's that they are lazy.

When Trump would tweet out a bunch of stupid shit, many in the press could grab their laptops, crank out several hundred words about what Trump said and how it was incorrect/bad/damaging.etc., and then they were done for the day.  Of course, I'm oversimplifying a bit, but you have plenty who had daily quotas, and quoting and fact-checking Trump made their lives incredibly easy.

With Biden, they are having to dig around more, and having to look for stories to write about, rather than having their browser automatically load up Trump's twitter feed as the homepage.

This is all correct, but plenty of them are still also petty and stupid.

[elfenix 34240]

i'm going to repeat my post from the climate thread: our post 9/11 wars have cost us $6,400,000,000,000.  which can't be said to have made us demonstrably safer.  meanwhile we shove our fingers in our ears and shout loudly in response to actual threats like climate change, disease, and stupidity. 

[washparkhorn 9939]

Brief interjection: 76 years ago today - FDR's body was moved to the White House on this day.

(from the Denver Mint archive)

_______________________________________________

As mentioned earlier, a literal foothold within a nation is not necessary - given our capabilities. The anti-terrorism eyes will remain trained on Afghanistan - and react as needed. I have no doubt Afghanistan will tumble into civil war. 

The fighting season is in the warmer months, so one more full season of murdering, which I hope Americans, allies, and contractors continue to avoid. 

I am not keen on 9/11 as the ceremonial last American out date. 9/11 is too loaded for the whack-a-doo's on all sides (neocons to nutters).  

That was a long and costly war. So much suffering and soul-wrecking misery. It changed us as a nation. 

[tantric superman 4667]

5 hours ago, Reynolds Woodcock said:

Jesus fucking Christ, these “foothold” in the Middle East arguments for staying in Afghanistan are brutal. It’s no wonder so many of you were duped by Republicans most of your adult life until Trump came along. 

The "women are going to get fucked over pretty bad" is the one I lead with.

[Biff Tannen 45683]

2 hours ago, elfenix said:

i'm going to repeat my post from the climate thread: our post 9/11 wars have cost us $6,400,000,000,000.  which can't be said to have made us demonstrably safer.  meanwhile we shove our fingers in our ears and shout loudly in response to actual threats like climate change, disease, and stupidity. 

I really think losing to climate is our destiny.  We are far too overpopulated for this planet and a balance has to be restored.  Getting off the planet is another option, but I think climate doing its thing is more likely.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

15 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

I really think losing to climate is our destiny.

We fucked around...

[sheeeit 129]

3 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

Bless your heart.

Thanks?

Im curious though.  Do you think if we keep 2500-4000 troops in Afghanistan long-term that the “no casualties“ will continue?

[Anastasis 23469]

4 hours ago, 'stache said:

I watched a lot of these little short videos early during the covid shutdowns and this one makes a lot of sense to me, intentionally drawing borders to keep that region in constant conflict for our own benefit. It's a short video and I acknowledge it is almost certainly more complex but I trust this is well researched and not just speaking out his butt. His other videos are usually pretty interesting and entertaining.

 

But see, cost/benefit analysis and footholds man. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

Biden trying to fix the plumbing.

 

[Fudge Nuggets 19190]

On 4/13/2021 at 9:23 PM, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Cost/benefit analysis often gets us into a lot of trouble, like slavery and genocide. 

Especially when our cost / benefit is based on Lockheed Martin’s next quarterly earnings report and Afghanistan is looking at ten years later.