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Confrontation

Bevo

By Bevo
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atomheartbevo

atomheartbevo 89656

Posted
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4 hours ago, Errestaurants said:

I'm extremely confrontational and don't give a fuck. My Dad was the same way. 

Somehow came across this video of Joe Jamail during a deposition from '92.

So which one of these guys in the video are you, or which one is your dad - Ed or Tucker?

 

Edited by atomheartbevo
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DonkeyCigars

DonkeyCigars 144

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I try not to be confrontational with the front line help, because generally a) it's not their fault b) they can't do anything about it and c) it's just a job and they aren't high enough in the company to care.

So to that end, I'm the king of escalation. I have escalated my case many, many times to the C-Suite of companies and got my satisfaction and remedy more often than not. All it takes is a bit of patience and sleuthing ability to get the right email/phone numbers because usually they will obstruct your attempts at escalating up the chain until you get a resolution. 

I've had CEO's of Fortune 50 organizations personally have to deal with stuff, which they hate and rubber stamp, to get things done but usually once it escalates to someone in corporate at a director or VP level you are good. Juice isn't worth the squeeze at that point and most people don't know how to properly escalate or don't take the time and effort.

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13 hours ago, DonkeyCigars said:

I try not to be confrontational with the front line help, because generally a) it's not their fault b) they can't do anything about it and c) it's just a job and they aren't high enough in the company to care.

So to that end, I'm the king of escalation. I have escalated my case many, many times to the C-Suite of companies and got my satisfaction and remedy more often than not. All it takes is a bit of patience and sleuthing ability to get the right email/phone numbers because usually they will obstruct your attempts at escalating up the chain until you get a resolution. 

I've had CEO's of Fortune 50 organizations personally have to deal with stuff, which they hate and rubber stamp, to get things done but usually once it escalates to someone in corporate at a director or VP level you are good. Juice isn't worth the squeeze at that point and most people don't know how to properly escalate or don't take the time and effort.

Corporate Karen...

So does the burger at Sonic taste better if the CEO/ CFO sends you the coupon?

 

Reminds of a national customer we have who always calls in on the national hotline/ email to resolve issues.  Their boss thinks it builds a paper trail and gets faster responses.  Every one of our customers has our local phone numbers and the immediate supervisor's number, and many have the next higher manager's number.  We pride ourselves on having the best customer service out there, but this particular chain doesn't buy it( mainly because they don't trust their own shitty employees,) but what it gets them is SLOWER response times, never getting the benefit of the doubt, and a major kink in that personal relationship our other customers( and their competition) enjoy.  Oh well.   Keep being fucking Karens about it.

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Samson's Wig

Samson's Wig 3192

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On the business side of this discussion, I'm one of those guys at the top of the chain that a handful of folks will manage to "escalate" things to.  And if it makes it all the way up to me there is a common denominator in every case.  The customer is an asshole who was disrespectful to my staff.  There is simply no way an issue wouldn't have been resolved satisfactorily long before it would land on my desk.  I'm amazed that some folks take some sort of false pride in creating these situations.   Others above have mentioned having success when getting to where the buck stops.  Our clients learn quickly that I'm loyal to my employees and have no problem dismantling a client and sending them packing if they're the cause of the rancor.  I don't seek out confrontation, but I have to admit I lick my chops a bit when I get notice that an upset client wants to talk to me.  Fortunately it doesn't happen that often and when it does it's usually a no-name trying to big-dog it in our industry.

In my personal life I'm anticonfrontational, possibly to a fault.  I grew up fighting a lot as a kid, having been taught very young by my father that the best way to handle other kids being jerks was to put your fist through their nose.  I think his advice was spot on, even though I lost as many fights as I won back then.  By the time I got out of my teens I had no interest in fighting any more, and I haven't, with a couple of minor exceptions in bar scuffles in my twenties.  Someone mentioned above that you catch more flies with honey and that's been my approach in my adult life.  It seems to work especially well when dealing with retail/customer service/wait staff.  I cringe at anyone who disrespects these hard working folks.  When dealing with mechanics/HVAC/etc.  type guys, as someone mentioned above the key is to ensure everything is clear up front, including what level of bullshit you're willing to put up with.  If they cross a line, it's easy to calmly walk away with your business if you've already established what you expect.

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DonkeyCigars

DonkeyCigars 144

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3 hours ago, slorch said:

Corporate Karen...

So does the burger at Sonic taste better if the CEO/ CFO sends you the coupon?

 

Reminds of a national customer we have who always calls in on the national hotline/ email to resolve issues.  Their boss thinks it builds a paper trail and gets faster responses.  Every one of our customers has our local phone numbers and the immediate supervisor's number, and many have the next higher manager's number.  We pride ourselves on having the best customer service out there, but this particular chain doesn't buy it( mainly because they don't trust their own shitty employees,) but what it gets them is SLOWER response times, never getting the benefit of the doubt, and a major kink in that personal relationship our other customers( and their competition) enjoy.  Oh well.   Keep being fucking Karens about it.

I think it depends on the issue and you have to gauge if it's worth the effort. Am I going scorched earth for a cheeseburger? You are slow, probably, for thinking or suggesting that.

But I have had to go to the COO of a National Plumbing Organization owned by private equity (i.e. an organization with accountability and customer success structure in place), with photographic evidence of damage and bad workmanship and was taken care of. I've gone to the CEO of a national chain car body shop for malfeasance of their employees (theft) and just last week I ran the traps with Bed, Bath and Beyond on a damaged product (forklift damage) that was minor enough that I could hide it, but would need some cash back credit for the trouble.

I guess not being ran over by corporate entities is being a Karen these days though to some, and that's fine, I guess I'll wear that haircut with pride because I'm not going to stop escalating to stakeholders who care if I feel I'm getting jobbed.

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Armybrat

Armybrat 40834

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Having high blood pressure and easily enraged by incompetents, I am happy with letting Mrs. Brat (a retired mid-level management  state bureaucrat) deal with such ilk on the telephone. She knows better than I how to cut through the bullshit with underlings and their supervisors in a calm, logical manner without raising anyone’s hackles.  Her 25 years of experience has given her a skill level that I could never match without stroking out.

Case in point..... Yesterday she spent about half an hour on the phone with Sprint/T-Mobile reps to have them straighten out our decades old account (we have four unlimited mobile lines). After attempting to get clarification from the clerk/rep, she insisted on talking to the “supervisor”. It took her only about 15 minutes further to have our monthly bill reduced to $120 from $250. I probably would’ve just canceled and gone with tin cans & a string.... after blowing out my bp machine.

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closetohumping

closetohumping 17440

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On 11/18/2020 at 1:09 PM, Bevo said:

Where do you stand? I'm kind of non-confrontational. I'll stand up for myself and never had a problem fighting if necessary. But do you guys dread getting into arguments?

I needed to get some work done on a compressor. I spoke with the receptionist and told her that I needed service including belts, cleaning and lubrication. I gave her the serial number of the unit so she could determine the parts needed. The repair guy who was nice came over on my day off and said that she didn't book enough time and that generally he just comes to see what is needed for the repair. He came back again the next week on my day off and performed general service. At the end of the service, he said there was a leak and that he needed to order a part. I need to have him come out again to do the repair because the unit won't work correctly until the air leak is fixed. So they have charged me about $900 and the problem with the overheating hasn't been fixed. They charged for 1 hour of service on the first visit, 2 hours of service on the second visit and to finish the work may take another 2 hours. They also charge mileage for coming out. On the first visit he should have caught the leak and then on the second visit it should have been repaired and may have taken an additional hour. So basically I should owe the company for 2 visits, parts, and probably 3 or 4 hours of work. The first visit was totally useless and wasted my time on my day off. I hate dealing with this kind of shit but won't stand for being screwed over either.

Do y'all just suck it up and have the fight? Pay for it and never use them again? Personally, I just want people to be fair. However, a lot of workers kind of like confrontation I think. Opinions?

I generally will try to avoid it, then I'll trya diplomatic approach and if that doesn't work, I become likes to fight guy. Another alternative is just to blast them on Yelp and google.  I've done that with companies that fucked me over and they usually apologize and compensate.  If not, I likely cost them a lot of business in the future.  Not to defend the antagonist here, but I don't see anything that is overtly unethical from them right now.

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CHIEF

CHIEF 5081

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It kinda depends on what it is, how specialized the work, how difficult it is to get the item worked on, and if I can find someone else that can do the work. A mobile skid steer mechanic gets a lot of leeway. Shitty waitstaff is something completely different.

CHIEF Jr. is the best "in-slip" boat mechanic on Lake Granbury, the guy that owns the company knows that. If a boat owner gets horsey or is a dick for no reason, CHIEF Jr. will load his shit up mid repair tell the guy to find a trailer and take his boat somewhere else, and wait 4-6 weeks for it to be ready. 

You need to know when you have leverage and when you don't.

CHIEF

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RDCanecutter

RDCanecutter 26424

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I used to get spicy all the time.

Now I ignore random street folk, underlings, managers, owners, all that shit. If I need something redone, I'll have a discrete folksy word with the dude who was supposed to do it. If that doesn't work, I forget they exist, just use somebody else next time.

It's been remarkably effective for years now.

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Bevo

Bevo 13576

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8 minutes ago, RDCanecutter said:

I used to get spicy all the time.

Now I ignore random street folk, underlings, managers, owners, all that shit. If I need something redone, I'll have a discrete folksy word with the dude who was supposed to do it. If that doesn't work, I forget they exist, just use somebody else next time.

It's been remarkably effective for years now.

Yeah, I'm becoming more and more like this. At least half the time, I am like armybrat and have the wife handle it. She is an accountant and does a pretty good job. I don't have high BP like armybrat, but usually when dealing with shit I end up with a splitting headache so it must go up when I have to deal with BS. It worries me because my dad had a heart attack in his mid-50s without any of the typical preconditions. So for piddly stuff where the outcome isn't real important, I usually have the wife handle it now.

 

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DonkeyCigars

DonkeyCigars 144

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13 minutes ago, RDCanecutter said:

I used to get spicy all the time.

Now I ignore random street folk, underlings, managers, owners, all that shit. If I need something redone, I'll have a discrete folksy word with the dude who was supposed to do it. If that doesn't work, I forget they exist, just use somebody else next time.

It's been remarkably effective for years now.

Can you give an example of this discrete folksy word?

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RDCanecutter

RDCanecutter 26424

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16 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Can you give an example of this discrete folksy word?

I channel my old motor pool sergeant Gene McClure from back in the Natl Guard in western N. Carolina. He held together a pack of feisty cusses who wouldn't take shit off anybody, but never had to raise his voice. Other sergeants would be hollering for their squads to wake up. Sgt. McClure would appear at your tent with a thermos of coffee and pour you a cup. You had to sit up to get the coffee, and he'd say hi and chat for a few seconds before going to the next tent. In 5 minutes he had everybody awake and happy and ready to work their asses off.

So it's not really what you say, eg "Wake up," it's how you say it.

I come by the real Southern accent naturally, and hung out on jobs with my electrician Dad and Grandad. I just let it flow. Nothing's adversarial, everything is a common problem to be solved.

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6 hours ago, DonkeyCigars said:

I think it depends on the issue and you have to gauge if it's worth the effort. Am I going scorched earth for a cheeseburger? You are slow, probably, for thinking or suggesting that.

 

Fuck off with the "slow" comment.  It's fucking pervasive round here lately to go that route when people disagree.  You can fuck right off.

Given the context of your message, you seem to revel in your c-suite interactions, which would lead me to believe they are not your peers.  No reasonable person brags about their swinging their weight around to go up the ladder on other employees to achieve resolution.  You're very likely an asshole, and not the good kind.  Nobody can satisfy you so they pass you on until the boss can write off your problems.

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DonkeyCigars

DonkeyCigars 144

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4 minutes ago, slorch said:

Fuck off with the "slow" comment.  It's fucking pervasive round here lately to go that route when people disagree.  You can fuck right off.

Given the context of your message, you seem to revel in your c-suite interactions, which would lead me to believe they are not your peers.  No reasonable person brags about their swinging their weight around to go up the ladder on other employees to achieve resolution.  You're very likely an asshole, and not the good kind.  Nobody can satisfy you so they pass you on until the boss can write off your problems.

You need help. 

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former alkie

former alkie 72

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Posted
On 11/19/2020 at 5:25 PM, DonkeyCigars said:

I try not to be confrontational with the front line help, because generally a) it's not their fault b) they can't do anything about it and c) it's just a job and they aren't high enough in the company to care.

So to that end, I'm the king of escalation. I have escalated my case many, many times to the C-Suite of companies and got my satisfaction and remedy more often than not. All it takes is a bit of patience and sleuthing ability to get the right email/phone numbers because usually they will obstruct your attempts at escalating up the chain until you get a resolution. 

I've had CEO's of Fortune 50 organizations personally have to deal with stuff, which they hate and rubber stamp, to get things done but usually once it escalates to someone in corporate at a director or VP level you are good. Juice isn't worth the squeeze at that point and most people don't know how to properly escalate or don't take the time and effort.

Absolutely, positively correct.

I give the lower level worker one, easy-going opportunity to correct an issue.  However, if not resolved, I kindly ask to speak to the person, that their direct supervisor reports to.  It works every single time. 

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Spaulding Smails

Spaulding Smails 1552

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On 11/18/2020 at 3:09 PM, Bevo said:

Where do you stand? I'm kind of non-confrontational. I'll stand up for myself and never had a problem fighting if necessary. But do you guys dread getting into arguments?

I needed to get some work done on a compressor. I spoke with the receptionist and told her that I needed service including belts, cleaning and lubrication. I gave her the serial number of the unit so she could determine the parts needed. The repair guy who was nice came over on my day off and said that she didn't book enough time and that generally he just comes to see what is needed for the repair. He came back again the next week on my day off and performed general service. At the end of the service, he said there was a leak and that he needed to order a part. I need to have him come out again to do the repair because the unit won't work correctly until the air leak is fixed. So they have charged me about $900 and the problem with the overheating hasn't been fixed. They charged for 1 hour of service on the first visit, 2 hours of service on the second visit and to finish the work may take another 2 hours. They also charge mileage for coming out. On the first visit he should have caught the leak and then on the second visit it should have been repaired and may have taken an additional hour. So basically I should owe the company for 2 visits, parts, and probably 3 or 4 hours of work. The first visit was totally useless and wasted my time on my day off. I hate dealing with this kind of shit but won't stand for being screwed over either.

Do y'all just suck it up and have the fight? Pay for it and never use them again? Personally, I just want people to be fair. However, a lot of workers kind of like confrontation I think. Opinions?

Fix it yourself.  

All kidding aside, what is stopping you from doing just that?  If you are capable of doing so and were to try to fix it yourself, how much time would you spend troubleshooting, tracking down parts, etc?  As the owner of a service company, it's incredibly infuriating and demoralizing when we hear a customer "I could have done it myself in half as long as it took your guy to do it!" while ignoring the time spent troubleshooting, tracking down parts, checking for safety / functionality and cleaning.  Did you approve or sign their hourly rate sheet on the front end before the work began?

Now, to play the other side of the coin, it does not sound like this service company has been transparent with you, and many companies put people out there who aren't the best and either screw things up or basically get paid to learn on the job.  Or, they have shitty processes that rack up hours without any work getting accomplished.  I'm guessing your experience is rooted in one of these.  We constantly ask our employees to present "clearly communicated realistic expectations".  Sounds like they failed here.  If they knew it may have taken three trips, they should have communicated that up front as a possibility.  And, if they're learning on the fly, they should be transparent and receptive to billing at a lesser rate.  My guess is this is a larger company with an absentee ownership group who's simply trying to hit a metric for hours billed with no common sense oversight on individual transactions and a lack of empowerment for that tech to make those types of decisions around discounts, etc.  We see that a lot when service companies are big and fragmented.

So, where do you go from here?  Are there other service companies you can try?  Or, are you essentially starting over if you bring someone else in at this point in the game?  I'm dealing with that exact scenario with my AV guys.  They were awesome when they did the install four years ago when we built our house.  Now, their service absolutely sucks.  I've been waiting two months for them to replace something that is sitting in their warehouse.  They send over new people every time I schedule service and they're basically charging me to re-learn my system.  It sucks, but I'm between a rock and a hard place because I don't want to pay a different company who won't cover the existing warranties and would really need to re-learn everything.

That being said, I'd reach out to your service company and try to be nice at first.  Explain to them the situation and see how they react.  If that doesn't work, then escalate.  But, you have to ask if that extra time and energy solves anything and ultimately costs you more in the long run.

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Bevo

Bevo 13576

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42 minutes ago, Spaulding Smails said:

Or, they have shitty processes that rack up hours without any work getting accomplished. 

Correct. But you are kind of missing the point - this thread is more about confrontation when getting screwed over than it is about this specific incident. If I didn't use the compressor as an example then I could have used FEDEX which took 10 working days to deliver a medical device (12 inch long rabbit) after it had arrived at FEDEX processing in Pflugerville.

And yes, I could have fixed it myself but I am not an expert in compressors so presumably an expert would be faster than I am. Plus, my income is patient and insurance receivables X - employee base pay and overtime - other expenses: in other words my time is better spent elsewhere.

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Spaulding Smails

Spaulding Smails 1552

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1 hour ago, Bevo said:

Correct. But you are kind of missing the point - this thread is more about confrontation when getting screwed over than it is about this specific incident. If I didn't use the compressor as an example then I could have used FEDEX which took 10 working days to deliver a medical device (12 inch long rabbit) after it had arrived at FEDEX processing in Pflugerville.

And yes, I could have fixed it myself but I am not an expert in compressors so presumably an expert would be faster than I am. Plus, my income is patient and insurance receivables X - employee base pay and overtime - other expenses: in other words my time is better spent elsewhere.

I get the point, and I read the title.  But, my point is confrontation is valid when somebody completely drops the ball.  Like if the service tech would have no-showed on those two days you took off.  In this case, I don't think confrontation is valid... yet.  You're obviously a successful business owner in a professional environment, and we're talking less than $1,000 here for expenses that should be part of your budget for a discrepancy over hours billed.  And you had to come in on your day off.  That sucks.  But, it's part of owning a business.  I get that it's frustrating, but not worth a confrontation and calling somebody's boss's boss at this point.  Write em a check, find somebody else to do the work next time, and move on.

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Knoxtnhorn

Knoxtnhorn 5974

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If we're talking about fighting, those days are long behind me.  I would only do it in self defense these days.  And, this is coming from someone who used to love to fight.  Hell, I started a pretty big brawl on the intramural fields (brother), way back when.  Out of all the outcomes, only one is "positive" and, even that is questionable.

I could die.

I could accidentally kill someone.

I could get my ass kicked or hurt.

I could lose my job.

I could get arrested.

I could get sued.

The only positive is that I could possible win the fight, but then I'd have anxiety over the cops showing up (assault) or getting served.  

When I was in school, I remember The Daily Texan had an article about a fight that happened outside the Hole in the Wall.  One punch.  Dude fell back, hit his head, and died.  The guy that punched him could have been justified in doing so; however, in throwing one punch, he killed a guy and probably ruined his own life.  No thanks.

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Errestaurants

Errestaurants 2570

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1 hour ago, Knoxtnhorn said:

If we're talking about fighting, those days are long behind me.  I would only do it in self defense these days.  And, this is coming from someone who used to love to fight.  Hell, I started a pretty big brawl on the intramural fields (brother), way back when.  Out of all the outcomes, only one is "positive" and, even that is questionable.

I could die.

I could accidentally kill someone.

I could get my ass kicked or hurt.

I could lose my job.

I could get arrested.

I could get sued.

The only positive is that I could possible win the fight, but then I'd have anxiety over the cops showing up (assault) or getting served.  

When I was in school, I remember The Daily Texan had an article about a fight that happened outside the Hole in the Wall.  One punch.  Dude fell back, hit his head, and died.  The guy that punched him could have been justified in doing so; however, in throwing one punch, he killed a guy and probably ruined his own life.  No thanks.

 

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closetohumping

closetohumping 17440

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On 11/22/2020 at 11:19 AM, Knoxtnhorn said:

If we're talking about fighting, those days are long behind me.  I would only do it in self defense these days.  And, this is coming from someone who used to love to fight.  Hell, I started a pretty big brawl on the intramural fields (brother), way back when.  Out of all the outcomes, only one is "positive" and, even that is questionable.

I could die.

I could accidentally kill someone.

I could get my ass kicked or hurt.

I could lose my job.

I could get arrested.

I could get sued.

The only positive is that I could possible win the fight, but then I'd have anxiety over the cops showing up (assault) or getting served.  

When I was in school, I remember The Daily Texan had an article about a fight that happened outside the Hole in the Wall.  One punch.  Dude fell back, hit his head, and died.  The guy that punched him could have been justified in doing so; however, in throwing one punch, he killed a guy and probably ruined his own life.  No thanks.

I don't think there's any positive to fisticuffs anymore. Could get sued.  Dude could come back with a gun, etc.

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