COVID-19 vaccine discussion

[Anastasis 23,498]

 

[TexEx15 17,811]

 

[Pods 7,594]

Good news on authorizing more boosters. Nice to see the FDA and CDC picking up the pace a bit and taking this more seriously, more quickly. I hope it continues. 

Edited August 17, 2021 by Pods

[Hmbre97 6,333]

The director of nursing for my company sent an email today that we are clear to start 3rd doses for Pfizer and Moderna patients and employees that are moderately to severely immunocomprimised.

Seems to be official because we've already received updated coding for 3rd doses for our EMR system (which is one of the bigger EMR providers in the country). I can't imagine we're going to be the only ones doing this.

[Pods 7,594]

36 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

Just to clarify, that study says two-dose Pfizer is 88% effective against symptomatic infection, not infection.

35 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

The study I linked before, that is.

You're right, it does. So the effectiveness against infection is likely under that, putting it more in line with the other data. 

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by Pods

[JohnLocke 115]

This is all incredibly frustrating.  I don't know what to believe. There doesn't seem to much science in the booster shots. It's just spitballing at this point.  We are basically 6 months in and the virus is mutating around the vaccines, and the answer is more of the same. I'm skeptical we can vaccinate our way out of this in the long term. Vaccines are working for now, but what we really need are treatments that work. You can see that the day may come where the vaccines don't work at all.  Hell, we need to use the treatments that we have that work.  My son (late 20's, vaccinated) got covid from an unvaccinated friend about the same age.  My son barely knew he had it, very mild symptoms, and he was vaccinated in December.  His friend is sick as a dog, runs 101 to 103 fever for 12 days, coughing, chills, the works.  I'm thinking he needs to be in the hospital, but no breathing problems, so they tell him to stay at home.  I'm asking about steroids and bloodthinners cuz I know when you are that sick with this shit, you are at high risk for a cytokin storm, and your blood turns to molasses.  Nope, just ibuprofin. Not even aspirin.  Sure enough, 2 days later he is in the hospital with a pulmonary embolism and a blood clot in his leg.  WTF?  I knew it was coming, why the hell doesn't the AMA?  (Kid is recovering nicely, thank goodness, but damn!)  I don't understand why there is so little focus on effective home treatments to keep you out of the hospital.

[Foosters 17,918]

Did they try horse paste?

[Pods 7,594]

1 hour ago, JohnLocke said:

This is all incredibly frustrating.  I don't know what to believe. There doesn't seem to much science in the booster shots. It's just spitballing at this point.  We are basically 6 months in and the virus is mutating around the vaccines, and the answer is more of the same. I'm skeptical we can vaccinate our way out of this in the long term. Vaccines are working for now, but what we really need are treatments that work. You can see that the day may come where the vaccines don't work at all.  

I've spent the last couple of months on this thread laying out the case that everyone was going to need a booster. There wasn't much published material to support my hypothesis, so not everyone believed me at the time, but no one reading this thread should be surprised, or not know what to believe at this point. 

The vaccines are still kicking the shit out of severe disease and deaths, they just don't stop as many transmissions as we'd hoped, especially Pfizer. For now, Moderna seems to be a bit better. Booster shots will greatly reduce the number of transmissions, and hopefully improve patient outcomes further. 

In the past few days, Israel has released preliminary data and expects the booster shot to cut breakthrough infections in half. I've discussed it on here. Today, Pfizer released their booster shot trial data to the FDA. The third dose gives “significantly higher neutralizing antibodies”.  I don't know the amount, but the government does. After receiving the data today, they immediately announced they are going to authorize further boosters, so it's a safe assumption the results were very good.

If anything, we should all be excited that the CDC and FDA are finally starting to pick up the pace and recognize the threat. They work great with historical data, but need to be estimating future evolutionary trends and working in probabilities to keep up in a pandemic. This is big step in that direction and I hope it continues. 

[Newdoc 3,465]

4 hours ago, conVINCEd said:

What would the medical advice be for getting a third shot for a young person?

It would be off label which almost never happens for a vaccine and a highly unusual circumstance. The risk is likely minimal but it has to be weighed with benefit. Not sure where that equation lands.

[Post Oak 20,326]

If they're going to announce it in the fall and boosters seem to be helpful why not just announce it now and help mitigate this wave?

Edited August 17, 2021 by Post Oak

[Guest Lobo]

Because you'll have about 35mm Americans thinking "It's too soon.  Not enough data.  And other things of that nature."

We went from a country who'd eat Subway bread, despite the overwhelming evidence that it was made out of yoga mat material to suddenly a nation of peer-reviewed researchers who are skeptical of anything that hasn't gone through a decade of clinical trials.  Except horse paste.  

[midtown 3,348]

We couldn't even get everyone to do the first two rounds and we're supposed get people to agree to boosters?   Yeah this is going to be a mess

[Anastasis 23,498]

2 hours ago, Post Oak said:

If they're going to announce it in the fall and boosters seem to be helpful why not just announce it now and help mitigate this wave?

Same reason that we won’t move on a pediatric EUA before school, because the CDC and FDA will always be at least 2-3 months behind the curve. 

Edited August 17, 2021 by Anastasis

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19,242]

7 hours ago, JohnLocke said:

This is all incredibly frustrating.  I don't know what to believe. There doesn't seem to much science in the booster shots. It's just spitballing at this point.  We are basically 6 months in and the virus is mutating around the vaccines, and the answer is more of the same. I'm skeptical we can vaccinate our way out of this in the long term. Vaccines are working for now, but what we really need are treatments that work. You can see that the day may come where the vaccines don't work at all.  Hell, we need to use the treatments that we have that work.  My son (late 20's, vaccinated) got covid from an unvaccinated friend about the same age.  My son barely knew he had it, very mild symptoms, and he was vaccinated in December.  His friend is sick as a dog, runs 101 to 103 fever for 12 days, coughing, chills, the works.  I'm thinking he needs to be in the hospital, but no breathing problems, so they tell him to stay at home.  I'm asking about steroids and bloodthinners cuz I know when you are that sick with this shit, you are at high risk for a cytokin storm, and your blood turns to molasses.  Nope, just ibuprofin. Not even aspirin.  Sure enough, 2 days later he is in the hospital with a pulmonary embolism and a blood clot in his leg.  WTF?  I knew it was coming, why the hell doesn't the AMA?  (Kid is recovering nicely, thank goodness, but damn!)  I don't understand why there is so little focus on effective home treatments to keep you out of the hospital.

Get fucked.  This whole post is disingenuous fucking bullshit.

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by PenelopeWitherspoon

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19,242]

41 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Because you'll have about 35mm Americans thinking "It's too soon.  Not enough data.  And other things of that nature."

We went from a country who'd eat Subway bread, despite the overwhelming evidence that it was made out of yoga mat material to suddenly a nation of peer-reviewed researchers who are skeptical of anything that hasn't gone through a decade of clinical trials.  Except horse paste.  

 

16 minutes ago, midtown said:

We couldn't even get everyone to do the first two rounds and we're supposed get people to agree to boosters?   Yeah this is going to be a mess

 

5 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Same reason that we won’t move on a pediatric EUA before school, because the CDC and FDA will always be at least 2-3 months behind the curve. 

All of this.  

 

[Anastasis 23,498]

8 hours ago, JohnLocke said:

This is all incredibly frustrating.  I don't know what to believe. There doesn't seem to much science in the booster shots. It's just spitballing at this point.  We are basically 6 months in and the virus is mutating around the vaccines, and the answer is more of the same. I'm skeptical we can vaccinate our way out of this in the long term. Vaccines are working for now, but what we really need are treatments that work. You can see that the day may come where the vaccines don't work at all.  Hell, we need to use the treatments that we have that work.  My son (late 20's, vaccinated) got covid from an unvaccinated friend about the same age.  My son barely knew he had it, very mild symptoms, and he was vaccinated in December.  His friend is sick as a dog, runs 101 to 103 fever for 12 days, coughing, chills, the works.  I'm thinking he needs to be in the hospital, but no breathing problems, so they tell him to stay at home.  I'm asking about steroids and bloodthinners cuz I know when you are that sick with this shit, you are at high risk for a cytokin storm, and your blood turns to molasses.  Nope, just ibuprofin. Not even aspirin.  Sure enough, 2 days later he is in the hospital with a pulmonary embolism and a blood clot in his leg.  WTF?  I knew it was coming, why the hell doesn't the AMA?  (Kid is recovering nicely, thank goodness, but damn!)  I don't understand why there is so little focus on effective home treatments to keep you out of the hospital.

The virus has not evaded the vaccines via mutation yet.  Delta is optimized for cell entry, generates a high viral load, and overwhelms the modest immune response that the vaccines generate in the respiratory mucosa. Once the virus is in, the vaccine does a good great job at preventing severe disease. If there is a problem to conjure with the vaccines, it's just that we need something that pumps out a better IgA response in the respiratory mucosa to stop the virus at point of entry. But the vaccines have not mutated around the vaccine-mediated immune response. 

In the long term, COVID will go endemic and pop up from time to time.  Most people will be fine, some people with die.  Mostly dumbasses that don't get vaccinated for dumbass reasons. 

Your son's friend was not vaccinated,  Your son was.  Your son's friend got very sick, your son did not. There is a lesson here.

 

[JohnLocke 115]

1 hour ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Get fucked.  This whole post is disingenuous fucking bullshit.

 

Just as sanctimonious as ever I see. I'm not anti-vax.  I was vaccinated early. The story I told illustrates quite clearly a case where the vaccines worked well.  But I don't believe the mutations are driven by the unvaccinated.  The choices are not horse paste or nothing.  We are capable of pursuing two paths at once.  It would be prudent to pursue treatment options. The lamda variant already exists, and is allegedly quite resistant to the vaccines. It would be best to prepare.  And we should quit killing people today with blood clots unnecessarily. Friend is a pediatric doctor and says they are seeing lots of them--in teenagers. Be aware. Or bury your head in the sand.  Your choice.

[kevwun 15,942]

Troll checks must have gone out, look who pops up just asking questions.

Edited August 17, 2021 by kevwun

[Liquor and Poker 3,659]

5 minutes ago, JohnLocke said:

Just as sanctimonious as ever I see. I'm not anti-vax.  I was vaccinated early. The story I told illustrates quite clearly a case where the vaccines worked well.  But I don't believe the mutations are driven by the unvaccinated.  The choices are not horse paste or nothing.  We are capable of pursuing two paths at once.  It would be prudent to pursue treatment options. The lamda variant already exists, and is allegedly quite resistant to the vaccines. It would be best to prepare.  And we should quit killing people today with blood clots unnecessarily. Friend is a pediatric doctor and says they are seeing lots of them--in teenagers. Be aware. Or bury your head in the sand.  Your choice.

So wait - is the whole point of your posts that doctors treating Covid patients need to do more to prevent blood clots by prescribing blood thinners and steroids?   Then I defer to the clinicians on here.  

[Leeroy Jenkins 2,428]

16 minutes ago, JohnLocke said:

Just as sanctimonious as ever I see. I'm not anti-vax.  I was vaccinated early. The story I told illustrates quite clearly a case where the vaccines worked well.  But I don't believe the mutations are driven by the unvaccinated.  The choices are not horse paste or nothing.  We are capable of pursuing two paths at once.  It would be prudent to pursue treatment options. The lamda variant already exists, and is allegedly quite resistant to the vaccines. It would be best to prepare.  And we should quit killing people today with blood clots unnecessarily. Friend is a pediatric doctor and says they are seeing lots of them--in teenagers. Be aware. Or bury your head in the sand.  Your choice.

Do you fucking think people are not trying to find and/or develop treatment options?  

[Cheeseweasel 26,438]

34 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

will go endemic

That was the name of my 80's Synth Pop band.

[JohnLocke 115]

8 minutes ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

Do you fucking think people are not trying to find and/or develop treatment options?  

Well, we are are 18 months into this, and your home treatment options are horse paste or nothing. Doesn't seem to be much of a focus.

[Leeroy Jenkins 2,428]

4 minutes ago, JohnLocke said:

Well, we are are 18 months into this, and your home treatment options are horse paste or nothing. Doesn't seem to be much of a focus.

dO yOuR reSeArch.

https://www.fda.gov/drugs/coronavirus-covid-19-drugs/coronavirus-treatment-acceleration-program-ctap

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

The virus has not evaded the vaccines via mutation yet.  Delta is optimized for cell entry, generates a high viral load, and overwhelms the modest immune response that the vaccines generate in the respiratory mucosa. Once the virus is in, the vaccine does a good great job at preventing severe disease. If there is a problem to conjure with the vaccines, it's just that we need something that pumps out a better IgA response in the respiratory mucosa to stop the virus at point of entry. But the vaccines have not mutated around the vaccine-mediated immune response. 

In the long term, COVID will go endemic and pop up from time to time.  Most people will be fine, some people with die.  Mostly dumbasses that don't get vaccinated for dumbass reasons. 

Your son's friend was not vaccinated,  Your son was.  Your son's friend got very sick, your son did not. There is a lesson here.

 

 Hell, I already hate the car inspection every year and renewal of my DOT physical( a joke!!!, but a necessary one.)  I've taken the flu shot one time in my life and that was 20+ years ago.

I admittedly have to basically be dead to go to the doc. That being said, my wife and I are both vaccinated. We would most likely continue with the boosters.

What do y'all think this looks like long term?  Every 6-8 months go get a shot?  

 

 

[Neonmoon 38,130]

26 minutes ago, JohnLocke said:

Well, we are are 18 months into this, and your home treatment options are horse paste or nothing. Doesn't seem to be much of a focus.

It only took 40 years to develop therapeutics for HIV with extreme focus. 

Viruses are hard to kill 

[Brisketexan 105,567]

1 hour ago, JohnLocke said:

It would be prudent to pursue treatment options.

Good thing they are, then.

34 minutes ago, JohnLocke said:

Well, we are are 18 months into this, and your home treatment options are horse paste or nothing. Doesn't seem to be much of a focus.

I negged this because it is a flat-out, 100% lie.  There are multiple therapies and treatments being used for COVID.   Dozens, maybe more.  From things as simple as how patients are oriented for breathing to treatments like monoclonal antibodies, and a shitload more.

You are a lying troll, go to hell.

[JohnLocke 115]

Quit being intentionally obtuse.  Son's friend got great treatment once he went to the hospital. IV industrial strength blood thinners, etc. What he didn't get was anything beforehand to keep him out of the hospital.

[TXSooner518 2,439]

2 minutes ago, JohnLocke said:

Quit being intentionally obtuse.  Son's friend got great treatment once he went to the hospital. IV industrial strength blood thinners, etc. What he didn't get was anything beforehand to keep him out of the hospital.

There actually was something that could have kept him out of the hospital that he elected to bypass - THE MOTHERFUCKING FREE VACCINE

[Nice Guy Eddie 13,539]

I understand if someone is frustrated that we don't have perfect information or that the vaccines are not perfect. However it is what it is. 

[Captainant 27,970]

3 minutes ago, JohnLocke said:

Quit being intentionally obtuse.  Son's friend got great treatment once he went to the hospital. IV industrial strength blood thinners, etc. What he didn't get was anything beforehand to keep him out of the hospital.

who let you out of your coal bunker? Go get vaccinated you idiot.

[fluff 87]

Man this shit is exhausting!  I have a severe immunoglobulin deficiency (CVID), not to be confused with COVID...Anyways, I have escaped getting COVID so far, but now have a 5 year old starting kindergarten today. I also have a 1.5 yo in daycare.  Amazingly we have all stayed healthy but with the son starting kindergarten, I am not sure what to do.  I have both doses of vaccine and have gone ahead and signed up for the booster, but I am still unsure how my body will react if I get the virus.  Do I stay at home and just hope for the best, do I move out for a few weeks to see how the schools cases go?  I have signed up for the booster and plan to get it saturday.  I am worried that if I do get it, I will be one of those 2% cases that is in the hospital and vaxxed and things won't go well...

[Nice Guy Eddie 13,539]

2 minutes ago, fluff said:

Man this shit is exhausting!  I have a severe immunoglobulin deficiency (CVID), not to be confused with COVID...Anyways, I have escaped getting COVID so far, but now have a 5 year old starting kindergarten today. I also have a 1.5 yo in daycare.  Amazingly we have all stayed healthy but with the son starting kindergarten, I am not sure what to do.  I have both doses of vaccine and have gone ahead and signed up for the booster, but I am still unsure how my body will react if I get the virus.  Do I stay at home and just hope for the best, do I move out for a few weeks to see how the schools cases go?  I have signed up for the booster and plan to get it saturday.  I am worried that if I do get it, I will be one of those 2% cases that is in the hospital and vaxxed and things won't go well...

I'm sure it would be a pain for all, but could you stay away from the family until 2 weeks after you get your booster? 

[fluff 87]

5 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I'm sure it would be a pain for all, but could you stay away from the family until 2 weeks after you get your booster? 

It is possible, will be tough on the wife...but me in the hospital with COVID might be a bit harder on her...

[Don Johnson 4,758]

If the country had done a better job getting vaccinated and we didn't have the current Delta outbreak, would we still have the 8 month booster recommendation?  Or would they have likely waited longer?

[Post Oak 20,326]

17 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

If the country had done a better job getting vaccinated and we didn't have the current Delta outbreak, would we still have the 8 month booster recommendation?  Or would they have likely waited longer?

My brain is mush but i think i remember reading before Delta got ramped up that Pfizer said that they were recommending annual boosters.  Some details a probably off but I remember telling my wife that its just going to be like a flu shot.  FWIW

[Brisketexan 105,567]

59 minutes ago, JohnLocke said:

Quit being intentionally obtuse.  Son's friend got great treatment once he went to the hospital. IV industrial strength blood thinners, etc. What he didn't get was anything beforehand to keep him out of the hospital.

Well then, you should bitch at his doctors.  There are plenty of treatments, therapies, and practices intended to be used on an outpatient basis and avoid hospital admission.  Here's just one:

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavirus-covid-19-update-fda-authorizes-monoclonal-antibodies-treatment-covid-19

56 minutes ago, TXSooner518 said:

There actually was something that could have kept him out of the hospital that he elected to bypass - THE MOTHERFUCKING FREE VACCINE

But this, of course, was the most important one.

"What we need most is a good way to treat people after they've set themselves on fire!"  Ummm....yeah.  The best treatment is "don't set yourself on fire."

[CooterBrown 18,089]

If I am getting a 3rd shot, I’ll probably go ahead and just do a 2nd 2-shot cycle. Just because, in 6 months, they’ll end up recommending it anyway.

[Brisketexan 105,567]

4 minutes ago, Post Oak said:

My brain is mush but i think i remember reading before Delta got ramped up that Pfizer said that they were recommending annual boosters.  Some details a probably off but I remember telling my wife that its just going to be like a flu shot.  FWIW

I don't think they were recommending them, but they were saying that there was a good chance they'd be needed.

Here's my medical question about COVID "boosters" -- we have an annual flu shot.  It is tailored to protect against a very specific version of the flu virus (whichever version is expected to be the prevalent one that flu season).  That flu vaccine is changed and administered annually, and as far as I know, does NOT require new FDA approval every year.  The flu vaccine in 2017 addressed flu variant X, and needed no new approval to do so.  The flu vaccine in 2018 addressed flu variant Y, and needed no new approval to do so.

So, COVID has variants.  We can perhaps see that a particular variant or variants are likely to be prevalent next year.  Can we take EXISTING vaccines and tweak them to address the new variants without having to go back through the whole FDA approval process?  That is, can the COVID vaccine process mirror the flu vaccine process, whereby once the vaccine is approved, then tweaking it to address different variants of the virus doesn't require full FDA approval again?

Anyone know this?  I am rather ignorant of the whole process, particularly as it relates to the flu vaccine (my point of comparison).

[dcbc 14,568]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I don't think they were recommending them, but they were saying that there was a good chance they'd be needed.

Here's my medical question about COVID "boosters" -- we have an annual flu shot.  It is tailored to protect against a very specific version of the flu virus (whichever version is expected to be the prevalent one that flu season).  That flu vaccine is changed and administered annually, and as far as I know, does NOT require new FDA approval every year.  The flu vaccine in 2017 addressed flu variant X, and needed no new approval to do so.  The flu vaccine in 2018 addressed flu variant Y, and needed no new approval to do so.

So, COVID has variants.  We can perhaps see that a particular variant or variants are likely to be prevalent next year.  Can we take EXISTING vaccines and tweak them to address the new variants without having to go back through the whole FDA approval process?  That is, can the COVID vaccine process mirror the flu vaccine process, whereby once the vaccine is approved, then tweaking it to address different variants of the virus doesn't require full FDA approval again?

Anyone know this?  I am rather ignorant of the whole process, particularly as it relates to the flu vaccine (my point of comparison).

Not a doc, but I recall reading that while they can tailor the vaccine/booster to the variants, it is less of a guessing game than it is with the flu.

[Newdoc 3,465]

1 hour ago, JohnLocke said:

Quit being intentionally obtuse.  Son's friend got great treatment once he went to the hospital. IV industrial strength blood thinners, etc. What he didn't get was anything beforehand to keep him out of the hospital.

Blood thinners isn't what keeps people out of the hospital. Nor does parasite medication or zinc or Vitamin C. Maybe a select population that is high risk for a coagulopathy would benefit from anticoagulants once infected but blood clots are not what is putting relatively healthy 30-60 year olds in the hospital. You know what prevents them from getting there? Being careful about not getting the virus in the first place and vaccines. Extremely low risk vaccinations.

[Brisketexan 105,567]

3 minutes ago, Newdoc said:

Blood thinners isn't what keeps people out of the hospital. Nor does parasite medication or zinc or Vitamin C. Maybe a select population that is high risk for a coagulopathy would benefit from anticoagulants once infected but blood clots are not what is putting relatively healthy 30-60 year olds in the hospital. You know what prevents them from getting there? Being careful about not getting the virus in the first place and vaccines. Extremely low risk vaccinations.

No, you see, it's my Eagle Freedom Patriot right to douse myself in gasoline and light myself in fire.  This is YOUR fault, for not developing cheap, easy, and effective therapies to keep people who are 50% covered in third degree burns out of the hospital.  That's what we REALLY need -- therapies to keep people with seared flesh out of the hospital.

[Jersey Man10 3,648]

What a load of horse shit.

[Brisketexan 105,567]

Jesus fucking christ.  Getting a vaccine......which literally HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE HAVE DONE, with damned near ZERO material harm (and MUCH material benefit)......is like getting beheaded by the Taliban?

These fucking people.  Let's just give them the SE United States, ship them all there, and let them live in their dream world.

Oh, and also, once we do that.....I may become interested in this "border wall" concept we've been hearing so much about.....

[orange dream 1,260]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Jesus fucking christ.  Getting a vaccine......which literally HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE HAVE DONE, with damned near ZERO material harm (and MUCH material benefit)......is like getting beheaded by the Taliban?

These fucking people.  Let's just give them the SE United States, ship them all there, and let them live in their dream world.

Oh, and also, once we do that.....I may become interested in this "border wall" concept we've been hearing so much about.....

Will make the SEC SEC SEC road games more of a TV event for me. ha ha

[midtown 3,348]

9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Let's just give them the SE United States, ship them all there, and let them live in their dream world.

No way.  There are some good spots in SE US.  What about the midwest?   There isn't shit worthwhile in the midwest.

[Anastasis 23,498]

This might be Casey.

 

Also, this might be Casey.

[Hpara759 1,781]

It's ok folks, go get a booster, mine has been onboard now for 4 months and absolutely no side effects!

[DDD Dad 14,369]

2 hours ago, JohnLocke said:

Well, we are are 18 months into this, and your home treatment options are horse paste or nothing. Doesn't seem to be much of a focus.

Is this like suicide by cop?  Demonstrably false posts like these are asking for a fatwa.

[mdleast 8,388]

I was watching this documentary which had the perfect solution: no walls needed

[JesusSweatDuck 17,814]

14 minutes ago, Anastasis said: