COVID-19 vaccine discussion

[Ten Bears 2481]

38 minutes ago, MrBig said:

Curative Round Rock but it’s not rapid 

Booked.  Thanks.  I should have just asked MrBig.

[Don Johnson 4754]

1 hour ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

I think we should load up B-52s with doses and just carpet bomb all those sumbitches into vaccination heaven. 

I feel your post is just wishful thinking. We can provide does, support, supplies, etc. But to think that the West could magically create a global force to vaccinate... and then provide a second shot... and then provide a booster to 3 billion people around the world is unrealistic. 

This.  Maybe if it was just getting a shot in arms once.  But..

Vaccinate the world?  

Then boost the world?

Then continue to boost the world?

 

[alincoln 2381]

We will never come close to fully vaccinating the U.S. much less the world.

[alincoln 2381]

30 minutes ago, Deej said:

Interested to know what percentage of the 25-30 he'd say are boosted.

I'd be more interested in what percentage are obese, elderly and/or have health problems.  At this point, almost all of those hospitalizations are still delta.

[Dontshootrude 374]

40 minutes ago, GTX Horn said:

Do the boosters take 2-3 weeks to reach full efficacy like the original 2 shots did or is the effect more immediate because of prior immune responses to the first 2 shots?

Data out of UK suggests it takes 2 weeks for a booster to reach full effectiveness.

[dcbc 14497]

6 hours ago, GTX Horn said:

Do the boosters take 2-3 weeks to reach full efficacy like the original 2 shots did or is the effect more immediate because of prior immune responses to the first 2 shots?

I don't know the specific answer, but per the UT Cares study, 7 months out from shot 2, and 6 days out from my booster, I was above range for vaccination antibodies.  3 months later, I still am.

[Harrison Bergeron 1798]

Seriously - what will it take for the MAGA morons to realize the virus spreads among and only kills the unvaccinated? We could stop the spread in 10 minutes if the mouthbreathers would get a damn shot!

[Bama Chick 28596]

Interested to know what percentage of the 25-30 he'd say are boosted.

I prepare our public facing COVID stats and information for the hospital I work for.

Over the last week, here’s what we’re seeing.

An increase in cases and an increase in the proportion of vaxxed patients.

Currently we have 47 positive C19 patients. Until the last 10-14 days, we’d usually have somewhere between 5-7 vaxxed patients within that total. (Been running about 10-15% vaxxed and 85-90% unvaxxed.

Currently? 19 of the 47 are vaxxed. We’ve seen a big jump. But we’ve yet to have a single admission of a patient who has gotten a booster.

We’ve also seen our first group of patients admitted with previous C19 infections. We’ve have 6 of those currently and 2 of the 6 have a previous C19 infection and are vaxxed (1 with the single J&J and 1 with a single dose of Pfizer).

Omicron is no joke.

[Bama Chick 28596]

I'd be more interested in what percentage are obese, elderly and/or have health problems.  At this point, almost all of those hospitalizations are still delta.

Nah - 13 days ago we only had 13 C19 inpatients. We’re now at 40+.

The US went from less than 15% of cases being attributed to Omicron to 73% in a week.

We aren’t doing any variant screening but after looking at this shit for going on two years, this spike is different.

I’m just hoping it’s less deadly and we don’t go back to having over 130 C19 patients in a 300 bed hospital like we did last January/February.

[pacman 7366]

15 hours ago, alincoln said:

We will never come close to fully vaccinating the U.S. much less the world.

Agree.

Not informed at all but my guess is we will have to treat this like the seasonal flu.

Offer best effort yearly vaccinations and hope we catch a majority of the live strains that year.

Edited December 23, 2021 by pacman

[statsman 5473]

6 hours ago, Harrison Bergeron said:

Seriously - what will it take for the MAGA morons to realize the virus spreads among and only kills the unvaccinated? We could stop the spread in 10 minutes if the mouthbreathers would get a damn shot!

I don’t believe this is true. Vaccinated are getting Covid, and are spreading Covid. 
 
The vaccine works to reduce the risk of a bad Covid illness. The benefit of vaccination is much more about protection of the vaccinated than any other goal. 
This benefit is far greater for the overweight and old than for the young and trim. 

Edited December 23, 2021 by statsman

[CooterBrown 18019]

Walter Reed supposed to be releasing data soon on the SARS-COV super vax they've been working on the past 2 years. 

 

Within weeks, scientists at the Walter Reed Army Institute of Research expect to announce that they have developed a vaccine that is effective against COVID-19 and all its variants, even Omicron, as well as from previous SARS-origin viruses that have killed millions of people worldwide. 

The achievement is the result of almost two years of work on the virus. The Army lab received its first DNA sequencing of the COVID-19 virus in early 2020. Very early on, Walter Reed’s infectious diseases branch decided to focus on making a vaccine that would work against not just the existing strain but all of its potential variants as well.

Walter Reed’s Spike Ferritin Nanoparticle COVID-19 vaccine, or SpFN, completed animal trials earlier this year with positive results. Phase 1 of human trials, which tested the vaccine against Omicron and the other variants, wrapped up this month, again with positive results that are undergoing final review, Dr. Kayvon Modjarrad, director of Walter Reed’s infectious diseases branch, said in an exclusive interview with Defense One. The new vaccine will still need to undergo phase 2 and phase 3 trials.

Unlike existing vaccines, Walter Reed’s SpFN uses a soccer ball-shaped protein with 24 faces for its vaccine, which allows scientists to attach the spikes of multiple coronavirus strains on different faces of the protein.

 

https://www.defenseone.com/technology/2021/12/us-army-creates-single-vaccine-effective-against-all-covid-sars-variants/360089/

A vaccine fully developed by the government. That’ll be readily accepted by Trumptards.

[CooterBrown 18019]

I don’t believe this is true. Vaccinated are getting Covid, and are spreading Covid. 
 
The vaccine works to reduce the risk of a bad Covid illness. The benefit of vaccination is much more about protection of the vaccinated than any other goal. 
This benefit is far greater for the overweight and old than for the young and trim. 

IIRC, vaccines do help slow the spread of COVID because the viral load carried by a vaccinated person is around 10% that of an unvaccinated person. Sure, you can get it from a vaccinated person but they don’t pass it on as easily. They’re more likely to give it to a member of their household than a stranger they pass on the street.

[Guest Lobo]

Also, if you are vacc'd, you are extraordinarily less likely to require hospitalization (I DID NOT SAY YOU CAN'T BE!).  And that allows our very limited health care resources to be available for the truly at-risk/ill (elderly and the like); or god forbid...maybe take a day off.  If your freedom supersedes being considerate to those out in your community, at least try and give fuck one about the front line health care workers this Christmas.  The people that've been working double shifts in that ridiculous gear for almost two straight years.  

I wish I could start a "Back the Nurses" (or something) campaign like the "Back the Blue" machine.  And give the proceeds to underpaid nurses and staffers.  And we wouldn't accost the American Flag either.  One of you marketing types, design us a logo.  We can have big stickers for the backs of our trucks.  

If, god forbid, the last face you see on your way out is an ICU nurse, I'd rather have her thinking "Well shit, he tried to not get sick.  But 5% of the fatalities do come from vaccinate folks.  Rest in Peace." than "What a fucking selfish asshole.  Another one of my dozens of patients that wouldn't take the vaccine. The fuck am I supposed to tell his family now?  He was trying to mumble something about freedoms but he was busy being drowned by his own ribcage."  

[statsman 5473]

55 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

IIRC, vaccines do help slow the spread of COVID because the viral load carried by a vaccinated person is around 10% that of an unvaccinated person. Sure, you can get it from a vaccinated person but they don’t pass it on as easily. They’re more likely to give it to a member of their household than a stranger they pass on the street.

I’m not sure it’s that straightforward about viral load. 
 

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2102507

 

Probably why nations and states that have high vaccination rates can see large outbreaks still. 
I’m sticking with the main benefit of vaccination is to the vaccinated. 

Edited December 23, 2021 by statsman

[Pato del Muerto 52539]

1 hour ago, CooterBrown said:

https://www.defenseone.com/technology/2021/12/us-army-creates-single-vaccine-effective-against-all-covid-sars-variants/360089/

A vaccine fully developed by the government. That’ll be readily accepted by Trumptards.

Developed by the army. They support the troops, right?

[Bevo 13591]

6 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Developed by the army. They support the troops, right?

I don't think that vaccine will be a winner based on the short description above. 

[Brisketexan 105184]

I don’t believe this is true. Vaccinated are getting Covid, and are spreading Covid. 
 
The vaccine works to reduce the risk of a bad Covid illness. The benefit of vaccination is much more about protection of the vaccinated than any other goal. 
This benefit is far greater for the overweight and old than for the young and trim. 

Wrong, both on the facts, and the full set of reasons to get vaccinated for others - see below:

IIRC, vaccines do help slow the spread of COVID because the viral load carried by a vaccinated person is around 10% that of an unvaccinated person. Sure, you can get it from a vaccinated person but they don’t pass it on as easily. They’re more likely to give it to a member of their household than a stranger they pass on the street.

Also, if you are vacc'd, you are extraordinarily less likely to require hospitalization (I DID NOT SAY YOU CAN'T BE!).  And that allows our very limited health care resources to be available for the truly at-risk/ill (elderly and the like); or god forbid...maybe take a day off.  If your freedom supersedes being considerate to those out in your community, at least try and give fuck one about the front line health care workers this Christmas.  The people that've been working double shifts in that ridiculous gear for almost two straight years.  
I wish I could start a "Back the Nurses" (or something) campaign like the "Back the Blue" machine.  And give the proceeds to underpaid nurses and staffers.  And we wouldn't accost the American Flag either.  One of you marketing types, design us a logo.  We can have big stickers for the backs of our trucks.  
If, god forbid, the last face you see on your way out is an ICU nurse, I'd rather have her thinking "Well shit, he tried to not get sick.  But 5% of the fatalities do come from vaccinate folks.  Rest in Peace." than "What a fucking selfish asshole.  Another one of my dozens of patients that wouldn't take the vaccine. The fuck am I supposed to tell his family now?  He was trying to mumble something about freedoms but he was busy being drowned by his own ribcage."  

Being vaccinated (especially if boosted) REDUCES the risk of transmission - it doesn’t eliminate it. You are less likely to contest Covid, and less likely to carry a high viral load if you do. Just like having good tires on your car REDUCES the risk of you losing control and smashing into someone else. People with good tires still have wrecks. But they are less likely to do so.

And nevermind you hogging medical resources. Friends of mine had to sit with their mother as she died in an ER alcove instead of a peaceful hospital room because no beds were available earlier this year. People have DIED because no beds were available.

Not getting vaccinated makes it more likely that you will harm others. It’s a cold truth.

“Freedom” is what the antivaxxers love, because it’s anarchical and selfish. “Liberty” is the term they should mean, but even then, they don’t get it, because Liberty includes obligations. They don’t want any of those. They just want selfishness.

[alincoln 2381]

1 hour ago, statsman said:

I don’t believe this is true. Vaccinated are getting Covid, and are spreading Covid. 
 
The vaccine works to reduce the risk of a bad Covid illness. The benefit of vaccination is much more about protection of the vaccinated than any other goal. 
This benefit is far greater for the overweight and old than for the young and trim. 

The vaccines are clearly less effective in preventing breakthrough omicron cases.  Boosters appear to help but only 28% of the US population has received a booster.  As a result, a significant majority of the US population has very limited protection against omicron.  Fortunately, omicron appears to be much milder with symptoms generally akin to a standard cold or allergies (runny nose, mildly sore throat, fatigue) compared to previous variants (fever, bad sore throat, loss of sense of smell or taste).  Unfortunately, most Americans will think they have a cold instead of omicron because the difference in symptoms is not understood by most of the population.  The asymptomatic and carriers who think they just have a winter cold will spread this through the population like wildfire.  Many states are at or approaching record case levels and those totals don't include many asymptomatic or minor cases.

[alincoln 2381]

The bottom line is that there is nothing we can do at this point to limit the spread of omicron throughout the world short of massive lockdowns which isn't going to happen.  

[Guest Lobo]

Nothing we can do?  As in, nothing at all?  Is that what you mean by "nothing"?? 

[statsman 5473]

Brisket, I linked a NEJM study that showed viral load in the vaccinated as being similar to that in the unvaccinated. 
I’m not saying it’s definitive, but I don’t think the argument that the unvaccinated are driving the spread is strong, and I think the experiences of outbreaks in heavily vaccinated regions support that. 
 

[alincoln 2381]

3 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Nothing we can do?  As in, nothing at all?  Is that what you mean by "nothing"?? 

Not with respect to omicron aside from immediate lockdowns comparable to those imposed at the beginning of covid, which won't happen.  It is way too late to implement a massive vaccine/booster rollout to the unvaccinated/unboosted.  

[Bevo 13591]

If death rates are low, omicron could provide the natural immunity that the world needs to get back to normal.

[statsman 5473]

I have conservative friends that argues in 2020 that Covid was a ruse to bring down Trump in the election. I told them, “There is no way that the rest of the world is shutting down their economies to help the US Democratic Party”. 
Now, some of you want to believe that Trump supporters are sabotaging our way out of this by not getting vaccinated. Look at the rest of the world. How many Trump supporters are in Austria? It’s at 90% vaccination and still had a huge case peak a few weeks ago. 
The chance to stop this pandemic cold passed in November 2019. Now we have to manage it. 

[Celery Man 20981]

5 hours ago, statsman said:

I have conservative friends that argues in 2020 that Covid was a ruse to bring down Trump in the election. I told them, “There is no way that the rest of the world is shutting down their economies to help the US Democratic Party”. 
Now, some of you want to believe that Trump supporters are sabotaging our way out of this by not getting vaccinated. Look at the rest of the world. How many Trump supporters are in Austria? It’s at 90% vaccination and still had a huge case peak a few weeks ago. 
The chance to stop this pandemic cold passed in November 2019. Now we have to manage it. 

what is your handle in reference to?

[Newdoc 3448]

6 hours ago, statsman said:

that showed viral load in the vaccinated as being similar to that in the unvaccinated.

Newer larger study. https://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/vaccinated-workers-shed-less-covid-virus

And there is recent published data in NEJM that also show decreased viral load in nasal mucosa with vaccinated individuals and shorter duration of viral shedding.

This all makes more sense as it fits common findings with breakthrough infections after other immunizations against viral disease.

[gmr548 16590]

Prior to omicron the unvaccinated were absolutely driving the spread. The new variant has changed the game on that front. Non-boosted vaccinated individuals do still have some level of protection against omicron relative to unvaccinated, though probably not to the degree that you can blame the unvaccinated entirely for omicron spreading throughout the population. Just disproportionately. Woo hoo! Given the overlap between antivaxxers and aggy, I am not surprised this moral victory is being celebrated by that crowd.

Vaccinated are still very unlikely to develop severe cases and need hospitalization relative to unvaccinated, even this time around. What will remain true, given that even non-boosted vaccinated people continue to demonstrate near invulnerability to severe disease, is that when hospitals fill up, it will be almost entirely with unvaccinated people. And when healthcare systems are stressed, it will be due to accommodating the unvaccinated. I think that is probably the bigger issue from a societal standpoint.

 

Edited December 23, 2021 by gmr548

[Bama Chick 28596]

Not with respect to omicron aside from immediate lockdowns comparable to those imposed at the beginning of covid, which won't happen.  It is way too late to implement a massive vaccine/booster rollout to the unvaccinated/unboosted.  

Here’s the thing though - involuntarily lockdowns and business shutdowns are going to happen anyway if we just let Omicron or the next extra contagious strain just burn through the unvaccinated.

Even if it’s a variant that’s way less deadly and requires fewer hospitalizations, C19 positive folks still have to stay the fuck home for 10-14 days and even “mild” cases can produce very sick people.

To say nothing of Long COVID or other long term problems that we may not even be aware of yet.

I just had to drive 30 minutes to the local FedEx shipping warehouse to pick up my last three Christmas gifts that have been sitting there for 5 days. Why? Because over the last week they’ve had an outbreak and 75% of their employees are either positive or quarantining because of exposure. One poor lady was working the counter and there were 10 other customers that got there in the 10 minutes I was there.

Lots of places are already severely understaffed and if Omicron burns through a business, lots of them may have no choice but to shut down. And lots of smaller businesses can’t survive a four week pause.

And it’s not too late for the unvaccinated - that’s what mandates are for. And as I said last night, we’re seeing significant numbers comparatively of patients who had OG Covid or Delta who have been reinfected and are sick enough to be hospitalized. AND three of the four monoclonal therapies are not effective on Omicron patients, and the one that is? Is pretty impossible to get right now.

Letting this just run it’s course is not a good plan.

[Immaculate Vibes 114]

27 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

Here’s the thing though - involuntarily lockdowns and business shutdowns are going to happen anyway if we just let Omicron or the next extra contagious strain just burn through the unvaccinated.

Even if it’s a variant that’s way less deadly and requires fewer hospitalizations, C19 positive folks still have to stay the fuck home for 10-14 days and even “mild” cases can produce very sick people.

To say nothing of Long COVID or other long term problems that we may not even be aware of yet.

I just had to drive 30 minutes to the local FedEx shipping warehouse to pick up my last three Christmas gifts that have been sitting there for 5 days. Why? Because over the last week they’ve had an outbreak and 75% of their employees are either positive or quarantining because of exposure. One poor lady was working the counter and there were 10 other customers that got there in the 10 minutes I was there.

Lots of places are already severely understaffed and if Omicron burns through a business, lots of them may have no choice but to shut down. And lots of smaller businesses can’t survive a four week pause.

And it’s not too late for the unvaccinated - that’s what mandates are for. And as I said last night, we’re seeing significant numbers comparatively of patients who had OG Covid or Delta who have been reinfected and are sick enough to be hospitalized. AND three of the four monoclonal therapies are not effective on Omicron patients, and the one that is? Is pretty impossible to get right now.

Letting this just run it’s course is not a good plan.

What would you suggest? 

[StruggleBus 3922]

35 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

Here’s the thing though - involuntarily lockdowns and business shutdowns are going to happen anyway if we just let Omicron or the next extra contagious strain just burn through the unvaccinated

Uh, no, not happening. There might be short term closures if too many staff members have it but most of the country has moved on. 

Edited December 23, 2021 by StruggleBus

[Liquor and Poker 3659]

On 12/22/2021 at 2:13 PM, GTX Horn said:

Do the boosters take 2-3 weeks to reach full efficacy like the original 2 shots did or is the effect more immediate because of prior immune responses to the first 2 shots?

 

 

[Eastwood 4394]

Me and my family have it, now. Holiday gathering with everyone vaxxed except for my two young kids. I was going to get boosted next week, too. Kids cleared it in less than a day and have been playing all day like nothing happened. Wife is having a tougher time, but no fever or loss of taste/smell. No fever for me or loss of taste or smell, I just feel really hungover. I had initially tested negative early in the week, zero symptoms yesterday, even had my yearly physical and blood draw that showed nothing out of the ordinary with white blood cell count.

Nothing will stop omicron. It will sweep through everyone before it's done.

[Buzzrock 14936]

Me and my family have it, now. Holiday gathering with everyone vaxxed except for my two young kids. I was going to get boosted next week, too. Kids cleared it in less than a day and have been playing all day like nothing happened. Wife is having a tougher time, but no fever or loss of taste/smell. No fever for me or loss of taste or smell, I just feel really hungover. I had initially tested negative early in the week, zero symptoms yesterday, even had my yearly physical and blood draw that showed nothing out of the ordinary with white blood cell count.

Nothing will stop omicron. It will sweep through everyone before it's done.

Physical Friday, booster Monday, tested positive today. My friends and neighbors are dropping like flies. So far everyone pretty much reports cold-like symptoms.

[tchookem 3905]

Lots of places are already severely understaffed and if Omicron burns through a business, lots of them may have no choice but to shut down. And lots of smaller businesses can’t survive a four week pause.

Letting this just run it’s course is not a good plan.

Now do schools and teachers.

[Dahobbs 17627]

3 hours ago, Immaculate Vibes said:

What would you suggest? 

I thought she was pretty clear: make everyone get vaccinated. 

[Dontshootrude 374]

In regards to vaccinated individuals being able to transmit COVID-19 compared to unvaccinated (naive), the evidence still suggests an unvaccinated person is more likely to spread it compared to a vaccinated person.  Viral load is going to be similar for a period of time in both people, but a vaccinated person is more likely to shed virus for a shorter period of time, and the virus they shed is going to be less likely to be infectious.  If the virus particles are covered in antibodies, they won't be able to infect new cells.  

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261295v1

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.20.21262158v1

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.30.21262701v1

[Buzzrock 14936]

I assume it’s Omicron, but Covid is absolutely tearing through all of my friend groups, relatives, coworkers etc in the last 48 hours. I must have heard of a dozen people close to me who have it. Thankfully everyone reports the same symptoms, that it feels like a cold. All of these people are vaccinated.

The reports that it could peak in January look like they might be right if it’s moving this fast. If it stays mild I guess that could be a good thing.

[Immaculate Vibes 114]

25 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

I thought she was pretty clear: make everyone get vaccinated. 

Oh I interpreted it differently. 
 

“Letting this just run it’s course is not a good plan.”

 

During Covid “letting it runs its course” has typically been held in contrast to stricter attempts at mitigation like lockdowns etc, but I didn’t want to assume anything. That’s why I asked for clarification.

 

 

[Dahobbs 17627]

44 minutes ago, Immaculate Vibes said:

Oh I interpreted it differently. 
 

“Letting this just run it’s course is not a good plan.”

 

During Covid “letting it runs its course” has typically been held in contrast to stricter attempts at mitigation like lockdowns etc, but I didn’t want to assume anything. That’s why I asked for clarification.

 

 

Letting it run it's course typically means no intervention at all. That would be stupid. Her point was that if that happens, essentially lockdowns will happen anyway when people stop going out on their own. It happened before and it'll happen again if nothing changes. She then said this: "And it’s not too late for the unvaccinated - that’s what mandates are for. "

Edited December 24, 2021 by Dahobbs

[Buzzrock 14936]

4 hours ago, Liquor and Poker said:

 

 

What does that mean?

[Anastasis 23481]

15 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

What does that mean?

Get a booster and lick as many door knobs as you want cause we are basically dealing with a cold at this point if your immune system is primed. Or something like that hopefully. 

[Anastasis 23481]

5 hours ago, StruggleBus said:

Uh, no, not happening. There might be short term closures if too many staff members have it but most of the country has moved on. 

People are still caught up in COVID zero perspective and it is just not tenable. The majority of the country is going to move on until some harsh reality that may or may not come strikes them in the face.  

[DDD Dad 14346]

Get a booster and lick as many door knobs as you want cause we are basically dealing with a cold at this point if your immune system is primed. Or something like that hopefully. 

Hopefully.

[Anastasis 23481]

Just now, DDD Dad said:

Hopefully.

Indeed.  Cause if we are at a point where three or four shots or more don't allow for a return to normalcy, than most reasonable people will conclude that there is not return to normalcy pos9sible within the current framework. 

[Don Johnson 4754]

 

[Goofyboy 3293]

Normalcy is gone. This has become the flu with a higher hospitalization factor.

[texhorn 351]

Normalcy is gone. This has become the flu with a higher hospitalization factor.

Higher hospitalization factor and a shit-ton more contagious. So nothing like the flu. Got it.

[Celery Man 20981]

The evolution of the "it's just the flu you nancies need to calm down" 2020 crowd to the "it's endemic there's no point in doing anything you nancies need to grow up and move on" 2021 crowd is remarkable.

I mean it's obviously endemic and not going to go away completely*, it's just incredible how people can go back to the same well that they shit in and just drink up.

* That doesn't mean nothing matters anymore. We're incredibly stupid, but the inability for moderately functional people to hold the thread long enough to get through the logic chain of "vaccinated people can spread the virus, but are less likely to get sick and spread the virus less when they do, and therefore getting vaccinated decreases the spread of the virus, which also slows mutation, all of which means it is better for your friends neighbors family and country especially since it is free and extremely low risk" is still shocking.

[aggie08 21511]

12 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

The evolution of the "it's just the flu you nancies need to calm down" 2020 crowd to the "it's endemic there's no point in doing anything you nancies need to grow up and move on" 2021 crowd is remarkable.

I mean it's obviously endemic and not going to go away completely*, it's just incredible how people can go back to the same well that they shit in and just drink up.

* That doesn't mean nothing matters anymore. We're incredibly stupid, but the inability for moderately functional people to hold the thread long enough to get through the logic chain of "vaccinated people can spread the virus, but are less likely to get sick and spread the virus less when they do, and therefore getting vaccinated decreases the spread of the virus, which also slows mutation, all of which means it is better for your friends neighbors family and country especially since it is free and extremely low risk" is still shocking.

Yeah, but literally none of those words were "freedom."