COVID-19 vaccine discussion

[Trey3216 15,346]

Mine has gotten progressively worse since having COVID 18 months ago and getting vaccinated.  Damn annoying.  

[StruggleBus 3,922]

34 minutes ago, Trey3216 said:

Mine has gotten progressively worse since having COVID 18 months ago and getting vaccinated.  Damn annoying.  

I really only notice mine at night. Have to sleep with a loud fan on or I can't sleep at all. 

[Trey3216 15,346]

5 minutes ago, StruggleBus said:

I really only notice mine at night. Have to sleep with a loud fan on or I can't sleep at all. 

Mine is considerably worse at night, but it’s not great during the day sometimes either.  If it’s too quiet at the office, it drives me nuts.  

[midtown 3,345]

I've had it for probably 8 years now.  You get used to it.   Mine started after a bout with some allergies where my head was all full and it just never went away.  

 

Edited January 28, 2022 by midtown

[TXSG8R 3,362]

Welp, wife started running a fever last night after sneezing most of the week. Got two tests done this morning. One negative and one positive. The positive was from a deeper test, so we are counting on that one. So now I went and got tested even though I have no symptoms. Fun way to end the week. 

[Pato del Muerto 52,489]

Texas Roadhouse : steakhouses :: tinnitus: music

 

[texasdago 7,570]

I get the feeling a lot of us have had tinnitus for longer than we care to admit because we've stuffed earbuds in our ears for years and years... yeah, I have it but I know I used to hear ringing pre-covid... and I use earbuds so maybe I should cut it out.

[utee94 15,811]

I hate earbuds, nothing but headphones for me.  

 

 

[Armybrat 40,832]

3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Ive had it in my right ear for 35 years since an M-1 Carbine blew up on me, so hell if I know whether it’s vax related or not. Don’t think anyone else in my family has it, though.

How did that happen?

[Armybrat 40,832]

My tinnitus started sometime in the 1950s when shooting guns without ear protection. 
It’s gotten pretty loud in recent years (two constant high pitched tones plus loud flocks of “birds chirping” in my ears) but I just ignore it for the most part.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Armybrat

[Trey3216 15,346]

1 hour ago, utee94 said:

I hate earbuds, nothing but headphones for me.  

 

 

Damn.  Wooderson hasn't aged a bit... 

Edited January 28, 2022 by Trey3216

[StruggleBus 3,922]

2 hours ago, TXSG8R said:

Welp, wife started running a fever last night after sneezing most of the week. Got two tests done this morning. One negative and one positive. The positive was from a deeper test, so we are counting on that one. So now I went and got tested even though I have no symptoms. Fun way to end the week. 

To be fair, your wife probably isn't used to having anything deep inside her. 
 

Spoiler

JK, hope she feels better. 

 

Edited January 28, 2022 by StruggleBus

[LW Goatman 1,121]

So I got boosted in October. My daughter had Covid in November, I did not test positive during that timeframe.

I got a cold at the end of December. Then January the sinus infection kicked in, raging sick (I'm a pussy with the thick sinus stuff) but tested negative during that time.

Just this week, I started getting chills, felt a bit tired, a scratchy throat, and the mildest of congestion. Based on my cold I figured no big deal, maybe some residual stuff. My wife had me test today and I'm positive. Long story short, don't let the symptoms fool you. Had I not tested, I would've been out in the wild this weekend at kids sporting events, church, etc. 

Edited January 28, 2022 by LW Goatman
1234

[Deej 76,759]

5 hours ago, utee94 said:

I hate earbuds, nothing but headphones for me.  

 

 

Nothing but speaker chairs for me. 

 

[Brisketexan 105,095]

How did that happen?

Weak spot/crack in the bolt, flat out blew up. Top of the boot went up, blew out the magazine below, and made a godawful noise.

Still have the gun, never fixed it. Everything else is ok (barrel, stock) but needs a whole new assembly.

[MissingInAction 25,037]

I was boosted a couple weeks ago so I've been out and about. Wearing my ask and such. Hit up my fave bar cause I know everyone there is vaxxed when it's the regulars. 

There was one day where I got shortness of breath while walking the dog. A little later I had trouble bringing up enough air to talk. Lasted about an hour and was weird as fuck. My heart rate was normal, and dint feel bad. Just totally out of breath.

[statsman 5,457]

Sorry to derail the thread, but as to post 10026-

 I have a coworker, 60 years old, trim and seemingly in good health, who had a heart attack requiring surgery. He had similar symptoms from a regular activity, a short downhill and uphill walk he regularly made. His wife bagged him until he saw the doctor and found out he had a mild heart attack and severe blockages. He’s doing fine now. 
I don’t know you or anything about your age or health, but I’m going to pass this datapoint along for you to do with what you will. I was quizzing my coworker because my brother died of a heart attack at age 59 (he had lots and lots of preconditions and warning signs to ignore, unlike my coworker). 

Edited January 29, 2022 by statsman

[XYZ 2,154]

7 hours ago, MissingInAction said:

I was boosted a couple weeks ago so I've been out and about. Wearing my ask and such. Hit up my fave bar cause I know everyone there is vaxxed when it's the regulars. 

There was one day where I got shortness of breath while walking the dog. A little later I had trouble bringing up enough air to talk. Lasted about an hour and was weird as fuck. My heart rate was normal, and dint feel bad. Just totally out of breath.

What did your oximeter say?

[MissingInAction 25,037]

1 hour ago, statsman said:

Sorry to derail the thread, but as to post 10026-

 I have a coworker, 60 years old, trim and seemingly in good health, who had a heart attack requiring surgery. He had similar symptoms from a regular activity, a short downhill and uphill walk he regularly made. His wife bagged him until he saw the doctor and found out he had a mild heart attack and severe blockages. He’s doing fine now. 
I don’t know you or anything about your age or health, but I’m going to pass this datapoint along for you to do with what you will. I was quizzing my coworker because my brother died of a heart attack at age 59 (he had lots and lots of preconditions and warning signs to ignore, unlike my coworker). 

Thanks man. I've had my heart thoroughly checked.  Stress test, echo cardiagram, and was told I'd probably live to 90.  Im 48 now. That was two years ago though.

Edited January 29, 2022 by MissingInAction

[Guest Lobo]

I'm sure this was answered far upthread, but gotta ask again.  

After close-contact alerts in September and October (I was double-vaxxed back then), my IgM & IgG were both negative at two clinical/PCR tests.  Did some at-home tests in November and December before family gatherings, including getting boosted.  But after another close-contact in January, I've been tested twice this month in a clinical setting with PCR as well.  Now, my IgM is still negative, but both results have flipped to IgG-Positive.  What would cause the IgG flip from negative to positive?  

[Mole 4,330]

Team post COVID tinnitus here as well. Ent told me that my ears and hearing are in perfect health, although there’s some dead skin on the ringing ear’s drum. They’re gonna scrape it off in a few weeks. If that doesn’t work, she thinks it’s a benign growth or some weird disease that won’t kill me but will make life increasingly unpleasant until something else kills me.

[Txzen 498]

1 hour ago, Lobo said:

I'm sure this was answered far upthread, but gotta ask again.  

After close-contact alerts in September and October (I was double-vaxxed back then), my IgM & IgG were both negative at two clinical/PCR tests.  Did some at-home tests in November and December before family gatherings, including getting boosted.  But after another close-contact in January, I've been tested twice this month in a clinical setting with PCR as well.  Now, my IgM is still negative, but both results have flipped to IgG-Positive.  What would cause the IgG flip from negative to positive?  

Not a B cell guy, but the natural progression of antibody class switching upon antigen exposure is for a first transient production of IgM and then a second prolonged IgG production. My guess would be that your vaccination already ‘switched’ B cell production from IgM to IgG, and any secondary exposure would likely only trigger a profound IgG production. 

[TXSG8R 3,362]

On 1/28/2022 at 3:06 PM, StruggleBus said:

To be fair, your wife probably isn't used to having anything deep inside her. 
 

  Hide contents

JK, hope she feels better. 

 

Friday night/Saturday was rough.  Recurring fever, lots of coughing, lots of body aches.  “Even my uterus hurts” was said out loud. Lost most of her sense of taste at some point Saturday. She had a few hours yesterday afternoon where she felt a little better but fever came back in the evening. Fever came back this morning too, but she’s coughing a lot less today so far. I’m surprised it’s this rough with her being boosted.  

I tested negative Friday. Going to do an in home today and another nose spelunker at a test site tomorrow.  So far I still feel fine. A little stuffy, but that’s pretty normal most days. 

[South Austin 52,463]

22 hours ago, Txzen said:

Not a B cell guy, but the natural progression of antibody class switching upon antigen exposure is for a first transient production of IgM and then a second prolonged IgG production. My guess would be that your vaccination already ‘switched’ B cell production from IgM to IgG, and any secondary exposure would likely only trigger a profound IgG production. 

[The Original Greaser Bob 2,830]

Some follow up on the Peter Attia podcasts with links.

Ihttps://peterattiamd.com/a-follow-up-to-my-article-on-vaccine-mandates/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=220130-NL-mandatefollowup&utm_content=220130-NL-mandatefollowup-tw2

[Brisketexan 105,095]

Some follow up on the Peter Attia podcasts with links.
Ihttps://peterattiamd.com/a-follow-up-to-my-article-on-vaccine-mandates/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=220130-NL-mandatefollowup&utm_content=220130-NL-mandatefollowup-tw2

He casually dismisses the two greatest flaws in his analysis (and in the process, states something that is observably false).

1 - the fact that there is an impact on the rest of us by the unvaxxed in taking up and wearing down healthcare resources.

2 - his false statement about very effective treatments.

As to 1, he just resorts to the lazy “what about” fallacy of saying “fat people and smokers and such also take up healthcare resources.” He ignores two huge distinctions. First, they don’t take up resources in huge waves. All the smokers don’t get sick at once. If COVID patients were spread out over time (yeah, the old flatten the curve concept), they wouldn’t overwhelm our resources. That’s a huge difference between a transmissible illness and a chronic condition - their distribution curve over time. Second, if we could prevent smokers from ending up in the hospital with a path that included a) generally continue your normal behavior, but b) get a couple of quick, safe shots, we would surely do so. Shit, it would probably be a requirement before you could buy cigarettes - get the safe tobacco consumption shot.

2 - it’s false to say that we have very effective therapies. 2,000+ people don’t die every day of an illness that has “very effective therapies.” Do we have therapies now that are more effective than at the beginning of the pandemic? Yes, absolutely. And maybe without those, we’d be seeing 3,000 dead per day. But we’re still seeing 2,000 dead per day. That’s a super shitty result.

I remain torn, slightly, on vaccine mandates based on the current state of the virus. All of that said, I think that if we have a serious, deadly illness (COVID, lung cancer, heart disease, it doesn’t matter) that can be functionally eliminated as a serious illness by a low cost, low effort, low risk mechanism like a couple of shots, there is no excuse not to take that measure. And society shouldn’t bear the cost of your idiotic refusal. So, either get the shots, or stay the fuck out of our hospitals. Oh, and don’t expect society to pick up the extra cost of caring for the family you left behind without a breadwinner (I’m actually not serious about that one, as that would be counterproductive for all of us, so it’s not even a cost we can avoid).

[CooterBrown 18,006]

Thanks man. I've had my heart thoroughly checked.  Stress test, echo cardiagram, and was told I'd probably live to 90.  Im 48 now. That was two years ago though.

Have you done a nuclear stress test? Nothing showed up for me until I did that version of the stress test and I had 90% blockage on two blood vessels. Echo and regular stress test didn’t show shit.

[Bevo 13,576]

20 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

2 - it’s false to say that we have very effective therapies. 2,000+ people don’t die every day of an illness that has “very effective therapies.” Do we have therapies now that are more effective than at the beginning of the pandemic? Yes, absolutely. And maybe without those, we’d be seeing 3,000 dead per day. But we’re still seeing 2,000 dead per day. That’s a super shitty result.

Therapies could always improve. There are many good therapies for cancer yet cancer is still a leading cause of death. The same is true for heart disease.

For Covid there is the Regeneron monoclonal antibodies and now protease inhibitors are hitting the market. Protease inhibitors will be a bit of a game changer.

Effective treatments are always relative to what existed previously.

Edited January 30, 2022 by Bevo

[Guest Lobo]

Whatever happened with HCQ.  Wasn't that supposed to be the leading therapeutic...or does science continue to evolve in the name of science?  

[Brisketexan 105,095]

Therapies could always improve. There are many good therapies for cancer yet cancer is still a leading cause of death. The same is true for heart disease.
For Covid there is the Regeneron monoclonal antibodies and now protease inhibitors are hitting the market. Protease inhibitors will be a bit of a game changer.
Effective treatments are always relative to what existed previously.

Of course they are relative. But if you have a disease that would kill 3000 a day, and can get it to only kill 2000 a day, 1) yes, it’s great that we can save 1000 lives, but 2) losing 2000 a day is still fucking horrific, so “we have better therapies” is an illogical dismissal of the remaining 2000 daily deaths.

2000 dead per day is better than 3000 dead, but it’s still 2000 dead. He literally whistles past the graveyard on that one.

[MissingInAction 25,037]

20 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

Have you done a nuclear stress test? Nothing showed up for me until I did that version of the stress test and I had 90% blockage on two blood vessels. Echo and regular stress test didn’t show shit.

Damn

 No I have not, but I'll bring it up at my next physical.

[TXSG8R 3,362]

Now my throat is super scratchy and my lymph nodes are starting to swell. Guess it’s my turn in the barrel. 

[Skipper 6,133]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Of course they are relative. But if you have a disease that would kill 3000 a day, and can get it to only kill 2000 a day, 1) yes, it’s great that we can save 1000 lives, but 2) losing 2000 a day is still fucking horrific, so “we have better therapies” is an illogical dismissal of the remaining 2000 daily deaths.

2000 dead per day is better than 3000 dead, but it’s still 2000 dead. He literally whistles past the graveyard on that one.

You are acting like we will be dealing with either 2000 or 3000 deaths per day in perpetuity.   By late February it's estimated that over 40% of the entire US population would have gotten Omicron in an 8-9 week period.  That's an insane number of infections across the entire US (not regional like prior waves).   The US is in the fire right now and essentially this outcome was for the most part baked in before Christmas based on vax and natural immunity status at that time.  I think this debate really should all be about policies that are in place beginning say 3/1 or 3/15 when the tail of this wave is about wrapped up, there are very few left without "some" immune protection and the new therapeutics are widely available. 

[Brisketexan 105,095]

14 minutes ago, Skipper said:

You are acting like we will be dealing with either 2000 or 3000 deaths per day in perpetuity.   By late February it's estimated that over 40% of the entire US population would have gotten Omicron in an 8-9 week period.  That's an insane number of infections across the entire US (not regional like prior waves).   The US is in the fire right now and essentially this outcome was for the most part baked in before Christmas based on vax and natural immunity status at that time.  I think this debate really should all be about policies that are in place beginning say 3/1 or 3/15 when the tail of this wave is about wrapped up, there are very few left without "some" immune protection and the new therapeutics are widely available. 

I don't disagree that we need to be forward looking.  To me, it will all depend on what the total level of population immunity/partial immunity is.

Because the concept of 2000 deaths a day "in perpetuity" is a red herring.  The whole problem is that they aren't spread out -- they cluster around spikes.  And if our next spike does what Omicron did (because we're still Dumbfuckistan when it comes to getting vaccinated), then we are just suffering from the same stupid problem all over again.

Yes, I want to know what our total expected population immunity level is.  But expecting that it's going to be lower than you hope, this concern will remain an issue.

I'm sick and fucking tired of our society as a whole bearing the brunt, consequences, and costs of breathtakingly stupid decisions, the contrary of which are utterly low-cost, low-risk, and a functional no-brainer.  No vax, get fucked.  Lock the fucking hospital doors with them on the outside.  

Americans are "done with COVID?"  Cool, I'm there.  Just understand that it also means we're "done with dumbfucks who decide to get seriously ill/die from COVID."  Put em on a goddamned ice floe and shove them out to fucking sea.

[Skipper 6,133]

13 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

 

Yes, I want to know what our total expected population immunity level is.  But expecting that it's going to be lower than you hope, this concern will remain an issue.

 

I guess I just fail to see how it possibly will be low with this many Omicron infections.  Texas Cares estimated 75% with "some" protection in Texas as of 10/3 with Delta ongoing.  You layer additional vax + omicron on top of that how many are left?  How does that not get close to or over 90%? 

Of course Texas already dealt with a large Delta wave which clearly offset lower vax rate.  Has anyone actually seen evidence our hospitals here have been on the brink due to Omicron?

Finally, last note regarding deaths, I know it was a Covid denialist talking point that the deaths have been over-counted from day 1.  Clearly the all cause mortality data reflects that wasn't the case.  But we know from hospitals that were tracking "with or "from" COVID about 40-50% of hospitals were "with" during this wave because Omicron is just a totally different animal and is getting everyone.  I wish they were tracking deaths similarly (although, clearly it's harder to classify, I realize that if someone is in hospital for cancer treatment Omicron could have pushed them over the edge quicker than they would have otherwise).  Guess we won't really know until all cause mortality data down the line.

Edited January 30, 2022 by Skipper

[Brisketexan 105,095]

3 minutes ago, Skipper said:

But we know from hospitals that were tracking "with or "from" COVID about 40-50% of hospitals were "with" during this wave because Omicron is just a totally different animal and is getting everyone.  I wish they were tracking deaths similarly (although, clearly it's harder to classify, I realize that if someone is in hospital for cancer treatment Omicron could have pushed them over the edge quicker than they would have otherwise).  Guess we won't really know until all cause mortality data down the line.

Depends on the hospital.  And yes, the data is a mish-mash.  But I'll share that the folks I know in the field (nurses and chaplains, mostly) have been hammered by this wave as well.  Not as badly as the first waves, when it seemed like everyone who came in ended up dying, but pretty damned bad.  And of course, our available ICU beds state-wide are really damned low right now.  Again, some specific hospitals have had to stop accepting ICU patients (and that's just in Texas -- other states have had it even worse).  So, the overuse of scarce resources, and the PTSD they are inflicting on the healthcare worker crowd is ongoing (nevermind that the families of the unvaxxed regularly attack healthcare providers as being the actual cause of death, lying about the COVID diagnosis, denying the patient their personal care plan of a gallon of HCQ and horsepaste, and all that shit the unvaxxed bring to the table).

I'm just fucking done with the unvaxxed.  DONE.  Fuck them with a rusty goddamned spoon outside the hospital door.  Do not let them in.  They choose to commit suicide by selfish stupidity, get the fuck out of their way and let them finish the job. 

[Dbeasy 15,047]

For those of you mentioning tinnitus, some of you might remember me posting something on surly about ear problems in 2020.

To make a long story short, I’ve gone thru a miserable debilitating year and a half dealing with serious ear issues, including tinnitus, hearing loss, dizziness and other symptoms.

After researching this forever, and seeing some of the best doctors in the country, the condition has suddenly recently just abated. Hopefully it stays that way. 

But what’s interesting is that I got sick after a trip to LA in January of 2020, before the US really had a handle on Covid. Later tests in late 2020 didn’t show Covid anti-bodies so I’ll never know whether it was Covid that caused the symptoms. Nevertheless, I’ve felt that tinnitus and other ear issues are definitely a potential risk from Covid. 

[Deej 76,759]

5 hours ago, TXSG8R said:

“Even my uterus hurts” was said out loud

Sorry about that.

[Skipper 6,133]

8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

 

I'm just fucking done with the unvaxxed.  DONE.  Fuck them with a rusty goddamned spoon outside the hospital door.  Do not let them in.  They choose to commit suicide by selfish stupidity, get the fuck out of their way and let them finish the job. 

I hear you.  I just think there is some nuance.  For example, I had family that went to one of my fav NOLA restaurants with friends at my rec. NOLA requires proof of vax or negative test.  1 member of group wasn't vaxed so brought negative test to trip (day of flight). It was fine everywhere except this one restaurant that wouldn't let them in and I gather had an shunning attitude similar to above about the dirty unvaxed.  The nuance is this person was in 30's and had COVID 3 times already (first time during vax rollout before authorized for that age group, again in Delta wave when considering topping off the infection with a single dose and then got Omicron in December).  Each time a relatively mild experience.  I don't think there is any doctor out there that would actually advise this person that they need a vaccine at this point.  Certainly not 1 month out from Omicron. Yet this restaurant's policy (and attitude), which went above and beyond the local mandate, really turned everyone off including all the vaxed.  And just hearing the story makes me think i'm likely to skip it my next trip.  Clearly any private business should be able to set their own policies but nothing about that policy is based on actual science.   I fully appreciate a restaurant can't be expected to know (or believe) prior history background but from a pure risk perspective, I assign FAR  more value from a risk of transmission perspective to a day old negative test than I would to a 2X vax from 7 months ago in this wave.

[Brisketexan 105,095]

27 minutes ago, Skipper said:

I hear you.  I just think there is some nuance.  For example, I had family that went to one of my fav NOLA restaurants with friends at my rec. NOLA requires proof of vax or negative test.  1 member of group wasn't vaxed so brought negative test to trip (day of flight). It was fine everywhere except this one restaurant that wouldn't let them in and I gather had an shunning attitude similar to above about the dirty unvaxed.  The nuance is this person was in 30's and had COVID 3 times already (first time during vax rollout before authorized for that age group, again in Delta wave when considering topping off the infection with a single dose and then got Omicron in December).  Each time a relatively mild experience.  I don't think there is any doctor out there that would actually advise this person that they need a vaccine at this point.  Certainly not 1 month out from Omicron. Yet this restaurant's policy (and attitude), which went above and beyond the local mandate, really turned everyone off including all the vaxed.  And just hearing the story makes me think i'm likely to skip it my next trip.  Clearly any private business should be able to set their own policies but nothing about that policy is based on actual science.   I fully appreciate a restaurant can't be expected to know (or believe) prior history background but from a pure risk perspective, I assign FAR  more value from a risk of transmission perspective to a day old negative test than I would to a 2X vax from 7 months ago in this wave.

Sure, I hear you -- and absolutely no approach we take will be perfect.  It's impossible.

I would like to see some policy acknowledgement of the reduced risks associated with prior infection; many euro countries do so, we should too.

But, we live in a country where the anti-vax crowd will just fucking lie anyway, so it doesn't fucking matter.  They won't present a fake vax card that often (because that would admit them engaging in behavior that they have a tribal motive to never, ever be associated with), but they'd absolutely fake a previous infection or negative test.  Frankly, if you're an anti-vaxxer, I don't believe a thing you say.  It's kind of how I think of 9/11 truthers -- once I know that's their stance, I treat them as morons to be disregarded.

I wish shit were otherwise.  I wish we had a real national policy.  I wish that it could be adjusted to adapt to new information.  But we won't do any of that.  We'll just wait until enough people have died, then call it a win.  There will never, ever, ever be any sensible policy about COVID or vaccines here, so you can probably stop worrying about it.

[Skipper 6,133]

21 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

There will never, ever, ever be any sensible policy about COVID or vaccines here, so you can probably stop worrying about it.

We are veering way too much into Cloak Room so I'll respond only to say I don't think we can just accept that.  Because the outcome will be nonsensical policies depending on which state you live in (overreaching fear based mandates or overreaching anti-mandate legislation).

We're dealing with this right now at the pre-k level which is taking a frustrating approach in my kid's class with a "close contact" last week.  I keep having to remind myself they are doing the best they can to manage it with shitty CDC guidelines and parents with very different positions/viewpoints.  And we need to be patient given we still in the middle of Omicron.  But I think it's imperative on all of us to demand and advocate for sensible policies going forward.

[Brisketexan 105,095]

We are veering way too much into Cloak Room so I'll respond only to say I don't think we can just accept that.  Because the outcome will be nonsensical policies depending on which state you live in (overreaching fear based mandates or overreaching anti-mandate legislation).
We're dealing with this right now at the pre-k level which is taking a frustrating approach in my kid's class with a "close contact" last week.  I keep having to remind myself they are doing the best they can to manage it with shitty CDC guidelines and parents with very different positions/viewpoints.  And we need to be patient given we still in the middle of Omicron.  But I think it's imperative on all of us to demand and advocate for sensible policies going forward.

Wish on one hand, shit in the other. You know how it goes. What about our performance thus far gives you any basis for optimism? Even what we do brilliantly right (develop pretty damned effective vaccines in record time), we fuck up (shitty uptake percentage).

[The Original Greaser Bob 2,830]

9 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

He casually dismisses the two greatest flaws in his analysis (and in the process, states something that is observably false).

1 - the fact that there is an impact on the rest of us by the unvaxxed in taking up and wearing down healthcare resources.

2 - his false statement about very effective treatments.

As to 1, he just resorts to the lazy “what about” fallacy of saying “fat people and smokers and such also take up healthcare resources.” He ignores two huge distinctions. First, they don’t take up resources in huge waves. All the smokers don’t get sick at once. If COVID patients were spread out over time (yeah, the old flatten the curve concept), they wouldn’t overwhelm our resources. That’s a huge difference between a transmissible illness and a chronic condition - their distribution curve over time. Second, if we could prevent smokers from ending up in the hospital with a path that included a) generally continue your normal behavior, but b) get a couple of quick, safe shots, we would surely do so. Shit, it would probably be a requirement before you could buy cigarettes - get the safe tobacco consumption shot.

2 - it’s false to say that we have very effective therapies. 2,000+ people don’t die every day of an illness that has “very effective therapies.” Do we have therapies now that are more effective than at the beginning of the pandemic? Yes, absolutely. And maybe without those, we’d be seeing 3,000 dead per day. But we’re still seeing 2,000 dead per day. That’s a super shitty result.

I remain torn, slightly, on vaccine mandates based on the current state of the virus. All of that said, I think that if we have a serious, deadly illness (COVID, lung cancer, heart disease, it doesn’t matter) that can be functionally eliminated as a serious illness by a low cost, low effort, low risk mechanism like a couple of shots, there is no excuse not to take that measure. And society shouldn’t bear the cost of your idiotic refusal. So, either get the shots, or stay the fuck out of our hospitals. Oh, and don’t expect society to pick up the extra cost of caring for the family you left behind without a breadwinner (I’m actually not serious about that one, as that would be counterproductive for all of us, so it’s not even a cost we can avoid).

The article says he is pro vaccine, and you've indicated that you are torn on mandates, so I'm not seeing your reasoning for having a particular beef with this.

The issue Attia seems to be pushing is that it is appearing that natural immunity is arguably more effective at protecting oneself and arguably others than the vaccine.  If that is the case, why are we pushing the vaccine on otherwise healthy folks who have had COVID19 especially if recently?  

In addition, the question is whether we would have had as many people vaccinated or had even more vaccinated had we stayed away from even discussing mandates, rather, if we shifted the message of the importance of the vaccine away from government officials and towards simple public service announcements.

Bottom line is that once we had vaccines, that changed everything, because at that point each person had control over whether they would protect themselves.  The best way to protect the vulnerable, might have been, and might well be in the future, more effective without discussions of government imposed mandates.

[The Original Greaser Bob 2,830]

3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

What about our performance thus far gives you any basis for optimism?

the performance -- not much.  The basis for optimism if that we've created effective vaccines, and the folks who were all about mandates and closing schools (covidians) hopefully will be able to look back and identify the mistakes they made so that they aren't repeated.  I don't really have any hope for the covidiots, but one out of two isn't bad. 

[Brisketexan 105,095]

the performance -- not much.  The basis for optimism if that we've created effective vaccines, and the folks who were all about mandates and closing schools (covidians) hopefully will be able to look back and identify the mistakes they made so that they aren't repeated.  I don't really have any hope for the covidiots, but one out of two isn't bad. 

Yeah….I don’t see much hope for that, either. The hard-core Covidians don’t look to be budging much either.

[Dontshootrude 374]

On 1/29/2022 at 10:52 AM, Lobo said:

I'm sure this was answered far upthread, but gotta ask again.  

After close-contact alerts in September and October (I was double-vaxxed back then), my IgM & IgG were both negative at two clinical/PCR tests.  Did some at-home tests in November and December before family gatherings, including getting boosted.  But after another close-contact in January, I've been tested twice this month in a clinical setting with PCR as well.  Now, my IgM is still negative, but both results have flipped to IgG-Positive.  What would cause the IgG flip from negative to positive?  

Are you sure you had an antibody test?  The way you are describing things is a bit vague.  If you are vaxxed you should be IgG positive for Spike (S).  If you also recovered from infection then you will also be IgG positive for N (nucleocapsid).  If you were vaxxed only then the N antibody test was positive.

Remember that PCR and in home tests won't give you an antibody status as they are detecting the pathogen directly, and are not measuring your immune response.  

[52-80 19,150]

Denmark will end virus restrictions next week and reclassify Covid-19 as a disease that no longer poses a threat to society, even as infections hit a record high.

The Nordic country won’t extend the pandemic measures beyond Jan. 31, Prime Minister Mette Frederiksen said Wednesday.

Denmark has full vax rate of 81% for full pop, and 41% for people below 18.

Just in time for the winter of severe illness and death.

[Chopper 17,230]

On 1/30/2022 at 2:30 PM, Brisketexan said:

I would like to see some policy acknowledgement of the reduced risks associated with prior infection; many euro countries do so, we should too.

I am under the impression that with the new variant, prior infection with previous variants doesn't provide any meaningful protection. No stats, but I do recall reading that last week -- though if there's been a credible study showing otherwise I'd love to see it. If anything, giving someone credit for prior infection may be giving them too much credit.

[Skipper 6,133]

26 minutes ago, Chopper said:

I am under the impression that with the new variant, prior infection with previous variants doesn't provide any meaningful protection. No stats, but I do recall reading that last week -- though if there's been a credible study showing otherwise I'd love to see it. If anything, giving someone credit for prior infection may be giving them too much credit.

I don't think there is any firm data from Omicron that I've seen.  CDC released a study recently showing meaningful protection from both vaccination and natural infection against Alpha and Delta.  I would guess we are probably a couple of months out from any firm conclusions considering hospitalizations just recently peaked most places.  I don't think either vax or natural infection are providing material protection against infections but I'll be interested to see hard data on hospitalizations for sure.  

[Guest]

Got our 4 tests in the mail today.

Seems stupid.  Haven't needed one this whole time...

Send some coupons for brisket or some shit.