COVID-19 vaccine discussion

[Skipper 6,133]

For those keeping score, I did in fact stay home from work after fever went from normal to 103+ in a span of 3 hours last night.   Total beatdown. Pretty sure this one is the flu.  I've had a nice run of probably 8-10 years without a meaningful flu but guess I was due.  Hoping the flu vax at least makes this short lived.

[High Plains Drifter 11,036]

On 1/14/2024 at 9:30 PM, Caver60 said:

I got the Pfizer booster at the beginning of December in anticipation of holiday gatherings.

I didn’t have any side effects, and I’ve had them from every previous vaccination. So that was nice.

There are so many great people out there. There are some shitheads too. There is a lot of overlap in that Venn diagram when it comes to sickness/vaccination behavior. The only part that bothers me is that so many peoples’ default is not “This might help, and it’s not a huge burden, so I’m gonna do it.”

 

Yeah, it seems with every covid shot, the side effects are less severe. 

 

But @Jive Turkey is correct, the shingrix vax is no joke. That shit sucked. Also, my arm after the shingrix vax was really sore. 

[Aha Shake 4]

 

[MontereyMX 869]

18 minutes ago, Aha Shake said:

 

yepper, science, data and reason are about to make a lot of motherfuckers look really, really ignorant.   

[B00M 6,414]

44 minutes ago, MontereyMX said:

yepper, science, data and reason are about to make a lot of motherfuckers look really, really ignorant.   

What do you mean?

[Brisketexan 105,096]

What do you mean?

He means that if it is established that there are any negative side effects of a vaccine, even if a small number, that means vaccines are bad and the smart people are the ones who refused them.
He is also someone who points to the statistically rare instances of seat belts hurting people as proof that only idiots wear their seat belt to preventing or death.
TLDR; more arguments by people who are bad at math.

[B00M 6,414]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

He means that if it is established that there are any negative side effects of a vaccine, even if a small number, that means vaccines are bad and the smart people are the ones who refused them.
He is also someone who points to the statistically rare instances of seat belts hurting people as proof that only idiots wear their seat belt to preventing or death.
TLDR; more arguments by people who are bad at math.

I thought all these proudly ignorant motherfuckers got Herman Cained

 

[Pato del Muerto 52,489]

If you give a couple billion people a medicine, you shouldn’t be surprised that you end up with a few thousand adverse events. 
 

give a couple billion people peanut butter, or shrimp scampi, and you’d get the same. 
 

there’s also the issue of misappropriation of symptoms.  Some number of those AEs are just assumed by the affected to be related to the vaccine due to appearing near the time of inoculation, when there is another cause. Of course if you don’t go to the doctor, or don’t believe your doctor as an agent of the industry, but choose to rant online then those get aggregated into the actual AEs by the online community looking to promote such things. 

[Deej 76,759]

2 hours ago, MontereyMX said:

yepper, science, data and reason are about to make a lot of motherfuckers look really, really ignorant.   

[Ten Bears 2,481]

On 5/4/2024 at 8:44 AM, MontereyMX said:

yepper, science, data and reason are about to make a lot of motherfuckers look really, really ignorant.   

Now that's a self-fulfilling prophecy if I ever saw one.

[Neonmoon 38,129]

On 5/4/2024 at 9:25 AM, Aha Shake said:

 

New member. Anti-vax post in first 4 posts. I’m guessing the other posts were in Cyrpto threads. 

[Neonmoon 38,129]

22 hours ago, B00M said:

I thought all these proudly ignorant motherfuckers got Herman Cained

 

Nope. They just post here to let everyone know how dumb they are 

[Incredulity 11,665]

16 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Cyrpto threads. 

[Captainant 27,655]

24 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

New member. Anti-vax post in first 4 posts. I’m guessing the other posts were in Cyrpto threads. 

BAW GAWD THATS GRUHORN'S MUSIC

[GreenspointTexas 9,600]

I wish I could turn back the clock, assume the presidency, not close anything down, not order social distancing, and not create a vaccine

 

 

How many millions of AMERICANS would be dead? Assuming around a 1% infection to death rate. 10 million? 20 million?

[Incredulity 11,665]

26 minutes ago, GreenspointTexas said:

I wish I could turn back the clock, assume the presidency, not close anything down, not order social distancing, and not create a vaccine

 

 

How many millions of AMERICANS would be dead? Assuming around a 1% infection to death rate. 10 million? 20 million?

….

 

go on, you can say it…

 

 

[Homercles 10,205]

1 hour ago, Aha Shake said:

The NYT is now Anti-Vax?

No but engagement sells ads

[Neonmoon 38,129]

3 hours ago, Aha Shake said:

The NYT is now Anti-Vax?

No. The NYT is not anti-vax. The paper is reporting a tiny portion of vaccine recipients possibly having adverse reactions might not be getting medical attention they deserve. You are anti-vax. It’s why you’re necro-bumping the COVID vaccine thread to post that article with your 4th post. It’s why you’ve been crowd sourced 48 times you piece of shit. 
 

 

[Bookman 4,639]

I've had what, five or six shots now. When will I begin to experience adverse effects? 

[MontereyMX 869]

On 5/4/2024 at 10:35 AM, Brisketexan said:

He means that if it is established that there are any negative side effects of a vaccine, even if a small number, that means vaccines are bad and the smart people are the ones who refused them.
He is also someone who points to the statistically rare instances of seat belts hurting people as proof that only idiots wear their seat belt to preventing or death.
TLDR; more arguments by people who are bad at math.

 

[Anastasis 23,469]

43 minutes ago, Bookman said:

I've had what, five or six shots now.

Weird flex. The clinical data do not support turning yourself into a pin cushion.  

[Brisketexan 105,096]

Weird flex. The clinical data do not support turning yourself into a pin cushion.  

Bookman is not amused….

[Bookman 4,639]

10 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Weird flex. The clinical data do not support turning yourself into a pin cushion.  

Are you a doctor? 

[Bevo 13,576]

I think pharmacist. So I assume he is administering vaccines.

[Bookman 4,639]

3 minutes ago, Bevo said:

I think pharmacist. So I assume he is administering vaccines.

Well it's probably not a good idea to take medical advice from a pharmacist. 

[Anastasis 23,469]

I am not giving you medical advice, I am speaking to the level and quality of the clinical data. It would be nice if the medical advice from the regulators/public health authorities was based on something more than mouse antibodies and observational data. But boost to bolivia for all I care my friend.   

[MissingInAction 25,039]

On 5/4/2024 at 8:44 AM, MontereyMX said:

yepper, science, data and reason are about to make a lot of motherfuckers look really, really ignorant.   

[aggie08 21,497]

Man, why are we still doing this?*

*rhetorical, I know why we're still doing this: everything has to be political. 

There are certainly legitimate discussions to be had about the effectiveness of boosting to the moon and the policy decisions to mandate vaccines on children, the military, and generally younger/healthier individuals. But the latter discussion is for CR, no one is ever going to agree on, and has very little to do with the vaccine itself.

The vaccine itself is one of the great achievements of modern medical. There's just no denying that. It saved hundreds of thousands of lives worldwide. I'm going off shitty memory, but wasn't it something ridiculous that like 90% of people seriously hospitalized and/or dying from COVID after vaccines because widely available we're unvaccinated?

I know some of you kooks are anxious for the day when we all start dropping like flies, so you can high five the University of YouTube scientists that you hang out with, and stand in awe of your own rightness. But it ain't coming.

[Nivek 16,923]

2 hours ago, Anastasis said:

I am not giving you medical advice, I am speaking to the level and quality of the clinical data. It would be nice if the medical advice from the regulators/public health authorities was based on something more than mouse antibodies and observational data. But boost to bolivia for all I care my friend.   

There is reasonable criticism for how effective treatments can be or if they pose side effects, and how well the proxy's stand in for human beings.   But sometimes you have to go with what you have and not with what you want.   If we waited around for complete clinical studies which were demonstrated over multiple generations (to gauge the impact on offspring) we would never get anything done.   Unfortunately, we do not hold other industries to this standard (see leaded fuel impacts, teflon impacts, PFAS impacts, etc.).

 

 

[mdmost 43,001]

2 hours ago, aggie08 said:

I know some of you kooks are anxious for the day when we all start dropping like flies, so you can high five the University of YouTube scientists that you hang out with, and stand in awe of your own rightness. But it ain't coming.

Well bird flu looks promising for this so maybe their day is coming! You even get bleeding from the eyes with it. 

Edited May 6 by mdmost

[Pato del Muerto 52,489]

4 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

It's obvious that there were going to be negative side effects. No chemical, medicine or drug is 100% safe for 100% of a population. Latex and Peanuts and Sulfur and even the moldy penicillin bread out front shoulda told ya.

That a small % of folks had some sort of averse reaction and/or vaccine injury is not the problem.

The problem that the article seems to be highlighting, which I think is a good thing to spotlight, is that for those who were vaccine injured, they should not be ignored.

Especially when the pharma and government had legal immunity with a rushed product.

What is your solution?  If someone eats some skippy and has a bad reaction, what other than getting treatment should be done?  Should skippy pay for it?

Or are we saying that those injured allegedly by the vaccine, or probably, aren’t getting medical treatment?

[Pato del Muerto 52,489]

My immediate argument to that would be that there are forced vaccinations all over and there have been for decades. So let’s follow precedent on how those were handled when someone was injured from a polio vax or hep b vax or mmr.  
 

if the discussion is then over known vs less known safety profile, then we get into the weeds of emergent action alters risk tolerance. 

Edited May 6 by Pato del Muerto

[Brisketexan 105,096]

13 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

It's obvious that there were going to be negative side effects. No chemical, medicine or drug is 100% safe for 100% of a population. Latex and Peanuts and Sulfur and even the moldy penicillin bread out front shoulda told ya.  Exactly.  Everything has negative side effects.  EVERTYHING.  Meds, food, everything.

That a small % of folks had some sort of averse reaction and/or vaccine injury is not the problem.  Correct.  It is not.  But understand that this is what the anti-vax crowd hangs their hat on.  "See!  Someone had a negative side effect!  Vaccines are bad, and smart people opt out of them!"

The problem that the article seems to be highlighting, which I think is a good thing to spotlight, is that for those who were vaccine injured, they should not be ignored.  They shouldn't be.  And by and large, are not being ignored.  What takes time is sorting out correlation vs. causation.  Not everyone who was vaxxed who then has some heart condition (for example) had that condition caused by the vaccine.  

Especially when the pharma and government had legal immunity with a rushed product.  As a function of a highly unique, black swan type event -- a global pandemic of a novel, deadly virus.  We're not doing the same with the annual (changed every year) flu vaccine, for example.

Adverse reactions happen.  That doesn't mean that a treatment is bad.  But that's EXACTLY what the anti-vax crowd does: find the adverse reaction, and use the EXISTENCE of adverse reactions as "proof" that vaccines are poison.  Which is insanity and yes, perfectly analogous to the argument that "I saw that a guy died when his car went into a lake and his seatbelt trapped him in there and he drowned.  Seatbelts are killers, so I won't wear one".....as they ignore the fact that for every person who died because of their seatbelt, hundreds LIVED because of their seatbelt.  Anti-vaxxers are almost always terrible at math.

[Poester 109]

My friend got the OG Covid and his taste/smell have never fully recovered. He says that coffee tastes like gasoline and marinara makes him sick to his stomach. I’d rather have the vaccine side effects I think. 
 

I don’t regret getting the vaccine, but it was unnecessary based on my age and risk factors. It’s easy to look back now and be more objective. At the time I definitely got swept up in the panic… Meh, live and learn I guess. 

[Captainant 27,655]

3 hours ago, BeardIP said:

I think the issue is that this vaccination was fast-tracked and a lot of the life cycle and governance for bringing a vaccination to market was streamlined and/or parsed down

Care to cite your source on this? The vaccine was fast tracked but didn't skip any approval steps. It was more a matter of moving them to the front of the line for every review process and trial opportunity rather than some shadowy cabal jumping on the opportunity to inject 5G into your kids

Edited May 6 by Captainant

[Deej 76,759]

Everyone seems to forget how bad the COVID outcome was for a whole bunch of people during the first part of the pandemic. I'm sure it was just a coincidence that the outcomes seemed to improve as we started rolling the vaccines out. I lost friends half my age to that shit in the first year. I wasn't going to take chances worrying about risk factors. Give me the fucking shots. 

[Brisketexan 105,096]

28 minutes ago, Deej said:

Everyone seems to forget how bad the COVID outcome was for a whole bunch of people during the first part of the pandemic. I'm sure it was just a coincidence that the outcomes seemed to improve as we started rolling the vaccines out. I lost friends half my age to that shit in the first year. I wasn't going to take chances worrying about risk factors. Give me the fucking shots. 

Yep.  I have an old law school classmate who lives in midtown Manhattan.  We connected for brunch when we were visiting NYC last year (he's a gay dude, so of course brunch was the meet-up of choice).  But when we were talking about the last few years and what's gone on, when he got to discussing COVID...he really paused, and choked up talking about how many people they knew who died.  It was some traumatic shit.

And I was advising people, in real-time, about resources, alternatives, and decisions as to how to handle the local fallout/crisis it was creating (things like "what are the regulations on storing bodies," and shit like that).  I was talking to some people who were seeing some shit and were shaken as hell.  And of course the healthcare workers many of us knew at the time -- they had PTSD like motherfuckers.

Tell those folks "it was just the flu, it was all overblown," and you could and should get punched in the fucking face.

Edited May 6 by Brisketexan

[Deej 76,759]

"But we don't know the potential side effects of the vacinnes!"

We knew the side effects of COVID. 

 

[bolverk 29,667]

I know of at least a half-dozen from my HS graduating class (1989) of about 225 who died from it, but I was still friends with only a couple of them, though. One of them had some health issues, and it got him quickly in the spring. The other was just a cavalier asshole about it, who a mutual friend of ours later showed me one of his last FB messages to him that read, and I quote, "I ain't skeered." He caught it about a week later and was dead within the month.

Then, there was my dad, along with another half-dozen or so from my parents' close social/church group, who died from it that first fall/winter before the vaccine came out. My dad died an absolutely miserable death alone in his hospital bed the day after Christmas 2020. That was especially devasting for my mom because they'd been married 57 years, and there were only a few left in her social circle afterward. She never fully recovered emotionally from it until she passed away a couple of years later.

But no big deal, right? Right?!?

[Captainant 27,655]

12 minutes ago, bolverk said:

The other was just a cavalier asshole about it, who a mutual friend of ours later showed me one of his last FB messages to him that read, and I quote, "I ain't skeered." He caught it about a week later and was dead within the month.

That's some real Herman Cain award shit

[bolverk 29,667]

1 minute ago, Captainant said:

That's some real Herman Cain award shit

It really was. I'd known him since the 2nd or 3rd grade when his family moved to town. He'd always been a cocky asshole, but we initially became friends because his family had the only in-ground swimming pool in the neighborhood that I knew of. We stayed relatively good friends through college, though, but he had an uncanny knack for always getting into some really stupid shit.

I'm pretty sure he had Oppositional Defiance Disorder or something, so no one from our high school clique was at all surprised.

[Jiggy-Z 3,432]

And for those of you  that got the vaccine and didn't think you needed it or didn’t get it all because you were in a low risk group, consider yourselves lucky, because that shit does not always work out.

My best field employee, big, strong fit, young guy straight out of central casting almost died from this shit, was sidelined for months and is still not right in the head.

Also, my twin brother's best friend died yesterday from covid complications (he was a recovering cancer patient). So this shit is still out there waiting for you to get feeble and vulnerable.  So keep up with best practices.

At this point, I'm looking into what I need to do since I haven't been stuck in a year and a half. 

[Anastasis 23,469]

I don't see a problem with the accelerated emergency authorization process. In fact I think that they should have been more aggressive in early testing and done challenge trials. I think that the vaccine roll out was not optimized to first dose administration in this country, and that we could have done better and been less rigid with the second dose timing and probably saved a great many additional lives. I think that the mandate moves were wrongheaded and counter productive. And I think that we are in a totally different place today then we were in early 2021. This notion of putting mrna vaccines into 6 months old based on mouse model data is kinda crazy to me. This to the moon annual booster strategy seems ungrounded in strong clinical data. My whole family has received the primary series, and I og boosted. The whole family has hybrid immunity. I see no compelling reasons to keep boosting, although I have told my parents that there is no real harm for them. I am not sure that they benefit, but at their age the risk of long terms effects doesn't really register. I am not boosting my kids though unless something in the risk/benefit dynamic changes meaningfully. I am totally ok with people making whatever choices they want to make based on their own risk profile and decision making.  

[Pato del Muerto 52,489]

8 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

“Vaccine developers didn’t skip any testing steps, but conducted some of the steps on an overlapping schedule to gather data faster.”—Johns Hopkins Medicine

https://www.bu.edu/articles/2021/myths-vs-facts-covid-19-vaccine/

Processess that exist sequentially to optimize stafety standards were run in parallel to streamline and expedite production. Again, I get why they did it and support the wartime-esque effort behind it, but I think it's unethical to do that with legal immunity and unreasonably "mandate" the vaccination. 

Specifically preclinical testing was compressed and phases were run in parallel, clinical trial periods were shortened, and manufacturing quality control was expedited to start production ASAP (it was done even before approval, which of course was the financial risk of the manufacturers).

This is why I'm not even accounting or caring about a typical roll out of a vax which looks at long term effects and monitoring for delayed effects. That was a justifiable risk to go to market. In fact, they are ALL justifiable which I'm not disputing. I'm disputing the lack of a legal remedy for those who have been vaccine injured. Pretty pro-human, pro-labor stuff, if I may say so myself.

 

That means the trial participants were at higher risk, but by the time it was approved (EAU I’m assuming but please correct me if I’m wrong becaise it’s a big distinction) it was fully tested.  At least how I read that. 
 

I dunno, maybe things like that normally require a long term study, like monitoring trial patients for 2 years.  If so, that was obviously not completed before public rollout. 

Edited May 6 by Pato del Muerto

[Captainant 27,655]

9 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

Processess that exist sequentially to optimize stafety standards were run in parallel to streamline and expedite production. Again, I get why they did it and support the wartime-esque effort behind it, but I think it's unethical to do that with legal immunity and unreasonably "mandate" the vaccination. 

 

Why do you think these for profit companies do ANYTHING for safety if they aren't legally required to? My guy, they normally do these things one step at a time because of how immensely expensive it is to get a drug or therapy through approvals. Running every option in parallel is how you make massive progress extremely quickly, but you also are going to burn a SHITTON of cash doing so. 

The Manhattan Project followed the same ethos; they didn't know what was going to work and what wasn't, so they did everything in parallel at once.

The COVID caccine project/effort was a medical Manhattan Project. It broke new ground into a field of science that had not really been successfully wielded and designed by man yet. mRNA vaccines had been in development since the first SARS outbreak, but it was too risky to pursue because of the potential for failure. The COVID vaccines made it through all the same trials as any other vaccine would - it just didn't do things one step at a time for fear of a failure or setback causing wasted money (and thinner profit margins), because they had a blank check to make it happen. 

 

I just completely disagree with your uncritical and unsupported opinion of it being inherently more dangerous, despite clearing the exact same regulatory and safety bar as every other vaccine and drug.

Edited May 6 by Captainant

[Captainant 27,655]

12 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

Then why make it to where there is legal immunity and the people being compelled to take the vaccinations have no legal remedy, as they usually would? That strikes me as an implicit acknowledgement.

Wtf are you even talking about Chrispy? Links? Or is this just what many people are saying

[Captainant 27,655]

3 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/16/covid-vaccine-side-effects-compensation-lawsuit.html

You can’t sue Pfizer or Moderna if you have severe Covid vaccine side effects.

• Under the PREP Act, companies like Pfizer and Moderna have total immunity from liability if something unintentionally goes wrong with their vaccines.
• A little-known government program provides benefits to people who can prove they suffered serious injury from a vaccine.
• That program rarely pays, covering just 29 claims over the last decade.

We can't sue Armalite or Bushmaster if one of their products has severe side effects either, why should the companies that developed the vaccine be liable?

[Armybrat 40,832]

9 hours ago, mdmost said:

Well bird flu looks promising for this so maybe their day is coming! You even get bleeding from the eyes with it. 

Well, one can get that from a Vic M. post in the IPIHB forum.

[B00M 6,414]

6 hours ago, BeardIP said:

I don't have sympathy for those who were vaccine injured but did so voluntarily because they wanted the vaccine

Right?! fuck those pieces of shit that did the right thing for themselves, the high risk people in their lives, and their communities but were unlucky! NO SYMPATHY 

[Anastasis 23,469]

5 hours ago, Captainant said:

I just completely disagree with your uncritical and unsupported opinion of it being inherently more dangerous, despite clearing the exact same regulatory and safety bar as every other vaccine and drug.

The mechanism of action is very fundamentally different than any other prior vaccine approach used before. Inherently dangerous? Not sure I would use that formulation. Good reason to exercise some caution, certainly. There is great promise, if people can get comfortable with the technology and the proteins being coded for don't cause unintended effects. The reality is that safety profile of any new drug is really not established until well after market launch. In many cases until many years after launch. I think that if most people really understood how low the bar for safety is, and why that is (simple science reasons), many would be surprised. The reality is that the drug approval process is not able to catch (not powered to detect) meaningful safety endpoints. Shits got to be really off the rails to fail safety assessments during the pre-marketing phase. The real questions are answered after you get a few hundred thousand people to take it and get some "long-term" follow-up. The COVID vaccines are somewhat unique in that you had a huge number of people coming online in short time frame and in the context of a environment where they were literally just driving cars through parking lots at stadiums to get their shots. The first wave exposure data is an absolute mess. 

Edited May 7 by Anastasis