COVID-19 vaccine discussion

[Bevo 13468]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

The thing is, there is plenty to rightfully point wrt to the covid response that was erroneous. Some that was quite clear as it played out in real time, some that is just fucking ridiculous in hindsight, and some that we should be thinking about in the future.

The .gov vaccine mandates were a totally predictable and counterproductive disaster. Ramifications will play out in the long term and with unrelated vaccines. 

The vaccine recs wrt to young children was and continues to be totally divorced from evidence based medicine. I vaccinated all three of my kids. In hindsight, I wish we didn't tbh.

People losing their basic biological sciences grounding over natural immunity was a thing. 

The suppression of the lab leak talk was totally politically motivated, and Fauci was all up in that shit. Follow the DOD money. Lab origin is like 80/20 at this point, and that might be generous. 

 Everyone wanted to find the magic bullet early on. Unfortunately the antiparasitics did not shake out. The cult following that persists I guess even to this day was a brain damaged clique. See @triplehorn.

The school shutdowns were reasonable at first in spring 2020, but fraught in the context of long term outcomes, and it became clear early in the fall that energy was better spent elsewhere.

Texas Hammer is not directionally wrong across the board. But he is a dumbass. 

 

In fairness, I posted very early on that the quickest product to market would be a monoclonal against the spike protein using Abgenix/Amgen - Regeneron technology. And coincidentally, a Regeneron Ab was the first to provide a real treatment against Covid. I wish Fauci would have contacted me in January of 2020 and we would have saved a lot of lives.

In all seriousness, I considered approaching Amgen as I knew a lot of the old people from Abgenix. But, I’ve been out of the field for a long time so it would have been very difficult for me to get it going. Amgen doesn’t do any infectious disease and the red tape to get them to open the technology would have been daunting and non-conducive to a short timeline.

[GreenspointTexas 9547]

Heaven forbid people actually overreact with caution to the deadliest virus in our lifetimes

 

the horror

[Anastasis 23329]

1 hour ago, GreenspointTexas said:

Heaven forbid people actually overreact with caution to the deadliest virus in our lifetimes

 

the horror

We took away the jobs of nurses and frontline both medical and non medical over fake news about suppression of transmission and ignorance of basic immunology. Just straight up tribal signaling based on magical thinking. But ballgame I guess. 

[Incredulity 11446]

On 6/8/2024 at 1:44 PM, Anastasis said:

We took away the jobs of nurses and frontline both medical and non medical over fake news about suppression of transmission and ignorance of basic immunology. Just straight up tribal signaling based on magical thinking. But ballgame I guess. 

And now we have a severe shortage of medical staff across the country.  Which needs to be included in the cost/benefit analysis 

[YGIFS 19447]

If only there was a way to attract nurses and P.A.'s from other countries to the U.S. to backfill our healthcare provider shortage?  Like some kinda system.  Nah, forget it.

[Incredulity 11446]

27 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

If only there was a way to attract nurses and P.A.'s from other countries to the U.S. to backfill our healthcare provider shortage?  Like some kinda system.  Nah, forget it.

Some of the 9 million in the last 3 years have to have some training.  Just from a pure statistical analysis.

[Sawbonz 27301]

37 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

And now we have a severe shortage of medical staff across the country.  Which needs to be included in the cost/benefit analysis 

What?

[Incredulity 11446]

2 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

What?

Only speaking from second hand info from acquaintances in medicine.  To be clear I am referring to nurses.  I know some who are still making bank traveling to fill in shortages.

 I realize you are in the field so would gladly listen to other perspectives 

[Sawbonz 27301]

Just now, Incredulity said:

Only speaking from second hand info from acquaintances in medicine.  To be clear I am referring to nurses.  I know some who are still making bank traveling to fill in shortages.

 I realize you are in the field so would gladly listen to other perspectives 

The shortage has nothing to do with refusal to be vaccinated against COVID. I have privileges at hospitals that are affiliated with all the major systems in Texas except ascension health and none require Covid vaccination for medical staff at this point. I assume it’s the same for employees. There was an exodus from nursing due to burnout from dealing with the onslaught of the critically ill and dying and the endless double shifts during Covid. That and the aging of the population are the main reasons for shortages 

[Incredulity 11446]

11 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

The shortage has nothing to do with refusal to be vaccinated against COVID.

Nothing?

really?

absolute zero effect?  Thats what you’re saying?

Edited June 10 by Incredulity

[Sawbonz 27301]

20 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Nothing?

really?

absolute zero effect?  Thats what you’re saying?

In June of 2024? Nothing 

Oh, maybe a few of the unvaxxed nurses from 2021 who died of Covid. Yeah they may not have been replaced yet

[Incredulity 11446]

4 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

In June of 2024? Nothing 

Oh, maybe a few of the unvaxxed nurses from 2021 who died of Covid. Yeah they may not have been replaced yet

[Pato del Muerto 52237]

7 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

And your perspective is what?

that so many bailed during the time period after vaccines became available and before mandatory employment vax went away and never came back?

 

[Sawbonz 27301]

4 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

So it is your assertion that there are large numbers of nurses refusing to return to the workforce in 2024 because they were fired for not getting a vaccine in 2021? Do you have a link? I cannot find a peer reviewed article that shows a significant decline in nurse staffing levels due to refusing mandatory vaccinations.
 

There is an American Bar Association article from 2 years ago that quotes an executive saying “we can’t afford to lose any” regardless of the reason. But as I said, now in June of 2024 anyone who was out of work solely for vaccination status has long since found employment if they wanted to. 

As far as Covid burnout I know nurses who have left the profession because of it, and my anecdotal experience is reflected in studies eg

Burnout from Covid primary driver for nurses leaving profession

[jimmyjazz 45430]

18 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

And your perspective is what?

that so many bailed during the time period after vaccines became available and before mandatory employment vax went away and never came back?

 

Yeah, I don't buy that.  Unless they banked so much money during covid they could walk away from their chosen field, I can't see how that could be a long-term effect.

[Bevo 13468]

7 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

So it is your assertion that there are large numbers of nurses refusing to return to the workforce in 2024 because they were fired for not getting a vaccine in 2021? Do you have a link? I cannot find a peer reviewed article that shows a significant decline in nurse staffing levels due to refusing mandatory vaccinations.
 

There is an American Bar Association article from 2 years ago that quotes an executive saying “we can’t afford to lose any” regardless of the reason. But as I said, now in June of 2024 anyone who was out of work solely for vaccination status has long since found employment if they wanted to. 

As far as Covid burnout I know nurses who have left the profession because of it, and my anecdotal experience is reflected in studies eg

Burnout from Covid primary driver for nurses leaving profession

 

All service industries have had a problem with staffing since Covid.

[Sawbonz 27301]

20 minutes ago, Bevo said:

 

All service industries have had a problem with staffing since Covid.

His assertion was Covid vax mandates were a main driver of the current nursing shortage. There is no evidence of that 

[Incredulity 11446]

50 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

So it is your assertion that there are large numbers of nurses refusing to return to the workforce in 2024 because they were fired for not getting a vaccine in 2021?

How many people have you ever hired or fired?  Is it your assertion that people will line up to reapply for a job they have been contentiously fired from?  L O fucking L

[Incredulity 11446]

31 minutes ago, Bevo said:

 

All service industries have had a problem with staffing since Covid.

Of course.  The bullshit ran off thousands.  And the bullshit isn’t just lose your job vax mandates.  There are many who made the rational decision to stop working because they couldn’t get child care because all those were shut down and are now a fraction of pre-pandemic availability. 
 

You really think all that toothpaste just goes right back In the tube?

[Surly Bevo 24686]

How many people have you ever hired or fired?  Is it your assertion that people will line up to reapply for a job they have been contentiously fired from?  L O fucking L

Uh yea people do it all the time. They’re “x” at one organization, get let go and get a job as “x” at another organization.

[Sawbonz 27301]

2 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

How many people have you ever hired or fired?  Is it your assertion that people will line up to reapply for a job they have been contentiously fired from?  L O fucking L

More than 20, less than 100.

The same position? Of course not. Is it your assertion that people fired from one job in their profession will never seek a job in that field again?

Again, I’m happy to consider any study you link showing Covid 19 vaccine mandates as a contributor to current nursing shortages. 

[jimmyjazz 45430]

Don't hold your breath.

[Pods 7503]

24 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Don't hold your breath.

Do it too long and you'll turn into Incredulity. 

[mdleast 8238]

[Hefeweizen 5306]

Amazing how the pandemic either a) broke people’s brains or b) exposed how fucking incredibly stupid they were all along.

 

Or c) both.

[HRSchenker 2248]

15 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

The shortage has nothing to do with refusal to be vaccinated against COVID. I have privileges at hospitals that are affiliated with all the major systems in Texas except ascension health and none require Covid vaccination for medical staff at this point. I assume it’s the same for employees. There was an exodus from nursing due to burnout from dealing with the onslaught of the critically ill and dying and the endless double shifts during Covid. That and the aging of the population are the main reasons for shortages 

I don't know what it's like in medicine or nursing but pharmacy is experiencing an admissions crisis. Students just don't have interest in the profession anymore. When I graduated there were about 17,000 students who took the national licensing exam. Last year there were only 11,500 grads who took it. 

[Pato del Muerto 52237]

34 minutes ago, HRSchenker said:

I don't know what it's like in medicine or nursing but pharmacy is experiencing an admissions crisis. Students just don't have interest in the profession anymore. When I graduated there were about 17,000 students who took the national licensing exam. Last year there were only 11,500 grads who took it. 

How many pharmacies were there then as compared to now?  Are there just too many Walgreens, cvs, and rite aids now?

[wildcat09 29146]

16 hours ago, Incredulity said:

Only speaking from second hand info from acquaintances in medicine.  To be clear I am referring to nurses.  I know some who are still making bank traveling to fill in shortages.

 I realize you are in the field so would gladly listen to other perspectives 

 

16 hours ago, Incredulity said:

Nothing?

really?

absolute zero effect?  Thats what you’re saying?

 

15 hours ago, Incredulity said:

 

[wildcat09 29146]

13 hours ago, Hefeweizen said:

Amazing how the pandemic either a) broke people’s brains or b) exposed how fucking incredibly stupid they were all along.

 

Or c) both.

To be fair, we've all been able to see Incredulity's posts since this board started.

[Incredulity 11446]

12 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

To be fair, we've all been able to see Incredulity's posts since this board started.

[Gatorubet 30023]

On 6/6/2024 at 11:50 AM, Sawbonz said:

I’m not giving a medical opinion. I’m giving my personal opinion that if you are taking advice on a novel virus from anyone other than an infectious disease specialist, you’re a fucking idiot.

Most old-timey chiropractors could cure that.

[atomheartbevo 89304]

14 hours ago, Hefeweizen said:

Amazing how the pandemic either a) broke people’s brains or b) exposed how fucking incredibly stupid they were all along.

Or c) both.

Any country that wants to destroy the US, just needs to buy out Chili’s and SuperCuts and shut them down, since a lack of access to those places really messed up a lot of people mentally.  Even people who didn’t normally frequent those places were devastated at the thought of not being able to eat our or get their hair cut.

At least the government has seen how people will react to a mass pandemic and we pushed the vaccine development infrastructure pretty hard, so we’ve got that going for us

Edited June 10 by atomheartbevo

[Brisketexan 104238]

13 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Any country that wants to destroy the US, just needs to buy out Chili’s and SuperCuts and shut them down, since a lack of access to those places really messed up a lot of people mentally.  Even people who didn’t normally frequent those places were devastated at the thought of not being able to eat our or get their hair cut.

At least the government has seen how people will react to a mass pandemic and we pushed the vaccine development infrastructure pretty hard, so we’ve got that going for us

To be fair, Chili's salsa is awesome.

[jimmyjazz 45430]

Ironically, a lady at Supercuts told me the secret to great salsa.  She was right.  Haircut still sucked.  (Might have been the hair.)

[Dahobbs 17408]

2 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Ironically, a lady at Supercuts told me the secret to great salsa.  She was right.  Haircut still sucked.  (Might have been the hair.)

Is this the Alanis Morrissette kind of irony?  

[jimmyjazz 45430]

Just now, Dahobbs said:

Is this the Alanis Morrissette kind of irony?  

I did keep one hand in my pocket, so maybe?

[Gatorubet 30023]

SIL just got covid in Cali.  Son’s roommate in Louisiana as well, both in last two days.  It’s alive and well.  Both multiple jabbed, both with mild cases. 

[InkaUtexas 25290]

Yep, client went to a big conference in DC last week. Got covid somewhere along the voyage. Feels like crap and is not able to work on the project at hand.

[YGIFS 19447]

From your science-types, apparently in late stage testing, there was promising results late last week on the Covid-Flu joint vaccination shot.  I didn't know what to make of the story, but it sounded promising.  I still will continue to get them separately.  I held off on this last booster shot schedule because of some other health shit.  But I think I should get one this Autumn again.  And then Flu shot a couple months later.  

TexCares brought me back in to test my blood after dropping me from the program because of some other 'marker' (I don't remember the terms they used) because I had gone so long with so much exposure, I didn't get it.  And then I got it right after my last booster (I didn't notice it at the time).  So they're doing a whole study reboot on shit like that.  But I didn't go in for more blood draw.

In other news, Chili's chips are for shit.  But the salsa is good.  Much as I give people shit for eating at that dump, when I traveled weekly for work...if I saw an airport Chili's...I'd put down 2 baskets and 3 beers without taking a breath.  I wouldn't storm a state capitol building about it, but I'd be "Pleased Wait to be Seated" 

[HRSchenker 2248]

2 hours ago, Pato del Muerto said:

How many pharmacies were there then as compared to now?  Are there just too many Walgreens, cvs, and rite aids now?

4500 pharmacies have shut down since 10 years ago. In the state of Washington they've seen nearly 10% of their pharmacies shut down since last year. It has more to do with insurances reimbursement and pharmacist opt out than a surplus of stores. 

[Bevo 13468]

33 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

SIL just got covid in Cali.  Son’s roommate in Louisiana as well, both in last two days.  It’s alive and well.  Both multiple jabbed, both with mild cases. 

That's to be expected. I've been saying since the original clinical trials that for lasting immunity and more complete protection, we are going to go after multiple targets. Typically, targets are the virus replication proteins. None of the developers want to do this because of the expense of clinical trials vs. payback and the increased risk of side effects. But, IMO without such an approach, we will continue to see new subvariants and non-lethal infections.

Edited June 10 by Bevo

[jimmyjazz 45430]

Yep, my sis just came back from an Alaskan cruise, and brought home a nice case of covid.  Didn't turn out too bad.  (Quite vaxxed but has still caught it a few times like most people.)

[Anastasis 23329]

3 hours ago, HRSchenker said:

I don't know what it's like in medicine or nursing but pharmacy is experiencing an admissions crisis. Students just don't have interest in the profession anymore. When I graduated there were about 17,000 students who took the national licensing exam. Last year there were only 11,500 grads who took it. 

And ~1/3 of those don't enter the job market, they went on to do pgy1 residencies, with some number going on to do a pgy2 after that. Constraining the output of new grads, skimming off a sizable number to post-grad training, I assume a majority who those ending up in hospital or industry rather than traditional community pharmacy. Maybe a shift in interest in the profession but also a number of other factors choking out the numbers headed straight to a community pharmacy setting. 

[YGIFS 19447]

24 minutes ago, HRSchenker said:

4500 pharmacies have shut down since 10 years ago. In the state of Washington they've seen nearly 10% of their pharmacies shut down since last year. It has more to do with insurances reimbursement and pharmacist opt out than a surplus of stores. 

That's crazy.  I realize the insurance model has probably hurt their model, particularly the smaller shops.  But with a lot of fields like that, don't discount these two issues:

1.  Multi-generational pass-downs of practices.  Yeah, nobody leaves a Duane-Reade location to their kids who studies pharmacy.  But in a lot of exurban/rural areas, the parent would practice for decades.  One of the kids would go to school and then take over the practice when dad retired.  That model is deader than dead.  in PE, we see it all the time in Vet/Animal practices and Optometry especially.  Dad needs to sell out to retire, a young doctor can't afford it alongside their student loans.  So a fund swoops in, buys up 10 in the MSA, the new vet or doctor is brought in.  they consolidate services, trim expenses, etc.  the usual model.  It's happening with 1-3 location pharmacies as well.  Same thing with Rx.  Young pharmacist can't afford to buy their way in.  PE firm consolidates a dozen small pharmacies across several counties.  Rinse and repeat.  Or just shut them down and make better use of the real estate.  Speaking of which...

2.  Another reason for so many shutdowns is the massive real estate overhead of chain pharmacies.  Just an anecdotal example.  On our main street alone, there are 3 well-known pharmacy chains (plus one compound pharmacy and a 'wholistic' pharmacy in People's).  They big 3 are always busy as hell with pickups, shots, consultations, drive-thru, etc.  But there's almost nobody else doing any other shopping in the store.  Sure, somebody grab a candy or a hygiene product while they wait, but you see this in your communities as well.  Chains paying $30-$40/ft2 for 6,000 square feet and 80 parking spaces on a full acre on the off-chance that after you pickup your pills, you might buy at 15% marked up greeting card?  And there's really no way they can pass those real estate costs to you just because you get your refills there because drug pricing has to be much more uniform than all the other shit they sell that nobody buys.  

Folks will always need their medicine.  But Walgreen's is realizing they don't need to pick it up at a location with a 30-year NNN Lease bleeding cash from the rest of the operation.  So they fold.  

[Pato del Muerto 52237]

12 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

in PE, we see it all the time in Vet/Animal practices

We have had to search for a few vets between chronic issues for the dogs and moving. One thing that has popped (from one side of the equation) is the lamentation of how PE groups own so many vets now and the care is terrible as their mandate is generic care and turnover, to squeez every drop of profit out of them.  Including prescribing higher cost designer meds when cheaper, older ones would work. 
 

 

[YGIFS 19447]

Oh yeah, the model is great financially.  But it sucks for quality of care.  You see it in classic "father/son" models from Vet to Dentistry to Optometry to Pharmacy.  The child doesn't want to stick around in the town to take over the Mom & Pop shop who worked to provide excellent care, so they bolt for other opportunities.  So you get the practitioner from a few towns over to hustle all around and run 3 clinics poorly instead of 1 clinic really well.  With sliced staff and increased charges.  

[Brisketexan 104238]

Gosh, I mean, is there NOTHING that PE doesn't make just LOADS better?

[YGIFS 19447]

Massage parlors?  

[atomheartbevo 89304]

1 hour ago, YGIFS said:

Folks will always need their medicine.  But Walgreen's is realizing they don't need to pick it up at a location with a 30-year NNN Lease bleeding cash from the rest of the operation.  So they fold.  

Even as we see things like Aetna buying CVS so that they control their bottom line customers’ healthcare even more, Amazon is going hard on the pharmacy stuff.

A year or two down the road, we need to come back to this topic, because I have a feeling that things will change rapidly, for better or for worse.

[Brisketexan 104238]

2 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Even as we see things like Aetna buying CVS so that they control their bottom line customers’ healthcare even more, Amazon is going hard on the pharmacy stuff.

A year or two down the road, we need to come back to this topic, because I have a feeling that things will change rapidly, for better or for worse.

What could go wrong with giant, solely profit-motivated enterprises having exclusive control over functionally all outlets for medical and pharmacy care?