COVID-19 vaccine discussion

[midtown 3355]

13 minutes ago, Herbie Hancock said:

Some of y’all need to go read this

https://www.hhs.gov/hipaa/for-individuals/guidance-materials-for-consumers/index.html

You mean where people keep thinking that HIPAA as a reason they don't have to answer or acknowledge their vaccination status?  or in the fact CVS can't ask you if you are on your third etc?

[Cheeseweasel 26439]

4 minutes ago, JesusSweatDuck said:

Found this about J&J.  I guess I'll wait

 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/17/health/johnson-covid-booster-wait-wellness/index.html

[utee94 16089]

4 minutes ago, JesusSweatDuck said:

Found this about J&J.  I guess I'll wait

 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/17/health/johnson-covid-booster-wait-wellness/index.html

I'd advise talking to your doctor and getting his/her recommendation.

[kevwun 16440]

5 minutes ago, midtown said:

What if JNJ or Pfizer end up being better against lambda?     And apparently Novavax is even better than all of them

Anything is possible, but you can only go with the information we currently have and Moderna has been better against every variant up to this point.

[kevwun 16440]

5 minutes ago, midtown said:

What if JNJ or Pfizer end up being better against lambda?     And apparently Novavax is even better than all of them

Anything is possible, but you can only go with the information we currently have and Moderna has been better against every variant up to this point.

[kevwun 16440]

double post

Edited August 18, 2021 by kevwun

[Guest]

Small blessings, that pay off after multiple months of discussions are nice.  Called 83 y/o mom to discuss my meeting a fencing rep at her house tomorrow.

”How are you feeling?”

” I feel great, but my arm hurts!“

” what happened? Did you bump it or fall?“

” no it was nothing like that. I just finally went and got the shot.”

I am glad that she did it. I know some on here would say it took way too long. Keep in mind, this is a hardheaded Texas woman. She wasn’t gonna do it until she was ready. I’m just glad it happened.

[midtown 3355]

On 8/14/2021 at 6:19 AM, texastough said:

I may have missed it, but why can't insurance companies deny coverage for covid treatment for the willfully unvaccinated?

Laws.   They even have to cover pre-existing conditions now.  Not that I disagree with you but that's a slippery slope.   Once you allow that then they can deny treatment for a whole bunch of things like not wearing a seat belt.  Or eating a fast food diet etc.

[Hanrahan 1306]

2 hours ago, JesusSweatDuck said:

No mention of what us poor J&Jers should do...

You're now in the control group with the antivaxx cooters.  You should head down to your nearest feed shop before there's another run on horse paste.

[Cheeseweasel 26439]

26 minutes ago, slorch said:

Keep in mind, this is a hardheaded Texas woman.

Are there any other kind?

[Cheeseweasel 26439]

23 minutes ago, midtown said:

Once you allow that then they can deny treatment for a whole bunch of things like not wearing a seat belt.  Or eating a fast food diet etc.

[tbone_ 14451]

Laws.   They even have to cover pre-existing conditions now.  Not that I disagree with you but that's a slippery slope.   Once you allow that then they can deny treatment for a whole bunch of things like not wearing a seat belt.  Or eating a fast food diet etc.

We have a law in Arizona that is no shit called the “Stupid Motorist Law”. It says if someone drives around barricades into a flooded wash and has to get rescued they get billed back for their rescue.

Can’t we just pass a “Stupid Anti-Vaxxer Law”?

[midtown 3355]

1 minute ago, tbone_ said:

We have a law in Arizona that is no shit called the “Stupid Motorist Law”. It says if someone drives around barricades into a flooded wash and has to get rescued they get billed back for their rescue.

Can’t we just pass a “Stupid Anti-Vaxxer Law”?

[pearlandhorn 3343]

43 minutes ago, midtown said:

Laws.   They even have to cover pre-existing conditions now.  Not that I disagree with you but that's a slippery slope.   Once you allow that then they can deny treatment for a whole bunch of things like not wearing a seat belt.  Or eating a fast food diet etc.

And the problem is...?

[Captainant 28547]

11 minutes ago, pearlandhorn said:

And the problem is...?

you must not remember 10 years back when "dEaTh PaNeLs" was the talking point against that policy - and not wishing to "tell people how to live their lives"

[HookEm 2509]

My 16 yr old son is immunocompromised.  He was scheduled to get his 3rd Pfizer shot on Monday, but completely lost his sense of smell on Sunday.  So instead of getting the vax he got a COVID test instead.  Positive.  Damnit.

It has been mild so far, but what a stressful disruption to our lives.

[pearlandhorn 3343]

5 minutes ago, Captainant said:

you must not remember 10 years back when "dEaTh PaNeLs" was the talking point against that policy - and not wishing to "tell people how to live their lives"

[UTHornFan014 755]

So, I had an long-term adverse reaction to the 2nd Pfizer shot (that I'm still dealing with) and my PCP has recommended I avoid the MRNA booster when my 8 months are up.

Haven't gotten a response back from him yet RE: J&J (since I know it is a bit different than the MRNA vaccines).

For any of y'all that have a better medical understanding than I do:
1) Should I also avoid J&J?
2) Would it even be worth getting that one

[JesusSweatDuck 18119]

7 minutes ago, HookEm said:

My 16 yr old son is immunocompromised.  He was scheduled to get his 3rd Pfizer shot on Monday, but completely lost his sense of smell on Sunday.  So instead of getting the vax he got a COVID test instead.  Positive.  Damnit.

It has been mild so far, but what a stressful disruption to our lives.

Good luck, glad to hear it's mild.  Keep us updated.

[XYZ 2154]

42 minutes ago, UTHornFan014 said:

So, I had an long-term adverse reaction to the 2nd Pfizer shot (that I'm still dealing with) and my PCP has recommended I avoid the MRNA booster when my 8 months are up.

Haven't gotten a response back from him yet RE: J&J (since I know it is a bit different than the MRNA vaccines).

For any of y'all that have a better medical understanding than I do:
1) Should I also avoid J&J?
2) Would it even be worth getting that one

I’m in no position to comment on this…but this is surly so why the fuck not. J&J is pretty similar to Pfizer/Moderna. The vector is different, but once the recipe to make spike protein goes into your cells, the rest is the same. Do you have any idea what created the adverse reaction? If it’s the spike protein, then J&J vaccine would also fuck you up.

[Pods 7637]

3 hours ago, JesusSweatDuck said:

No mention of what us poor J&Jers should do...

cross posting this

Not a doctor disclaimer...

There are no studies using mRNA vaccines to boost J&J. There is data for Pfizer as a booster for AstraZeneca. It is safe and highly effective. Some people mixed mRNA for their initial vaccinations. Several western countries did as well. All indications are that it was safe and effective, but no studies were done.  

The CDC is just starting a study to look at mixing and matching different vaccines and booster shots. Insert my obligatory complaint that the CDC has been way too slow at everything. 

Until that data comes in, the CDC/FDA and most doctors are going to be cautious. The limited data available says it is safe and effective, but they aren't going to recommend it until they have lots of data to stand upon. 

[The Dog 44861]

10 minutes ago, XYZ said:

I’m in no position to comment on this…but this is surly so why the fuck not. J&J is pretty similar to Pfizer/Moderna. The vector is different, but once the recipe to make spike protein goes into your cells, the rest is the same. Do you have any idea what created the adverse reaction? If it’s the spike protein, then J&J vaccine would also fuck you up.

J&J is a different technology. Pfizer/Moderna are mRNA vaccines while J&J is a traditional virus-based technology. 

https://www.vcuhealth.org/news/covid-19/johnson-and-johnson-vaccine-how-is-it-different

[Anastasis 23721]

Some NY data on vaccine effectiveness through late July.  The graphs have a lot going on (top dashed line is VE), but upside is that VE stayed fairly high for cases and very high for severe disease.

In this study, current COVID-19 vaccines were highly effective against hospitalization (VE >90%) for fully vaccinated New York residents, even during a period during which prevalence of the Delta variant increased from <2% to >80% in the U.S. region that includes New York, societal public health restrictions eased,§§ and adult full-vaccine coverage in New York neared 65%. However, during the assessed period, rates of new cases increased among both unvaccinated and fully vaccinated adults, with lower relative rates among fully vaccinated persons. Moreover, VE against new infection declined from 91.7% to 79.8%. To reduce new COVID-19 cases and hospitalizations, these findings support the implementation of a layered approach centered on vaccination, as well as other prevention strategies.

The findings from this study are consistent with those observed in other countries. Israel has reported 90% VE for the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine against hospitalization; however, a decline in VE against new diagnosed infections occurred during June 20–July 17 (decreasing to <65%) (5). Another study in the United Kingdom found higher VE against infection with the Delta variant for Pfizer-BioNTech (88%), which was lower than VE against the B.1.1.7 (Alpha) variant (94%) (6).

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7034e1.htm?s_cid=mm7034e1_w

 

 

[BrazilHorn 6847]

Just saw this on reddit. Sums up a lot of how I'd imagine people in the medical profession feel hearing from "muh rights" people re: vaccines & masks.

[Gatorubet 30721]

Haven't gotten a response back from him yet RE: J&J (since I know it is a bit different than the MRNA vaccines).

For any of y'all that have a better medical understanding than I do:
1) Should I also avoid J&J?
2) Would it even be worth getting that one

Have you got any rum?

[Mole 4341]

2 hours ago, slorch said:

Small blessings, that pay off after multiple months of discussions are nice.  Called 83 y/o mom to discuss my meeting a fencing rep at her house tomorrow.

”How are you feeling?”

” I feel great, but my arm hurts!“

” what happened? Did you bump it or fall?“

” no it was nothing like that. I just finally went and got the shot.”

I am glad that she did it. I know some on here would say it took way too long. Keep in mind, this is a hardheaded Texas woman. She wasn’t gonna do it until she was ready. I’m just glad it happened.

Good for you and for her. Here’s hoping the Greater Lubbock Bridge and VD Club have many years of getting Mama-Slorch’d. But seriously, any unvaccinated person getting the shot is good news. And it’s encouragement to keep gently bugging my unvaccinated friends.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Mole

[DonkeyCigars 143]

Let me preface: Please don't get mad, dumb question amnesty, as I'm not the smartest or most-informed guy in the world about this stuff and have honest questions.

If I am fully vaxxed with Pfizer. Is a booster simply just getting a third shot of the Pfizer (a repeat of the 2nd shot) or is the third shot booster a uniquely composed payload that is different from the first two?

I ask because I was hearing chatter about people going into cvs and lying about their vaccination history to get a booster (e.g. already have 2 shots but pretending to only have one to get their "second shot" which is in fact the third as a booster). Does it work that way or are people just being foolish?

I ask because I'd be interested in getting a 3rd shot booster at my 8 month and 1 day.

[Liquor and Poker 3659]

3 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Let me preface: Please don't get mad, dumb question amnesty, as I'm not the smartest or most-informed guy in the world about this stuff and have honest questions.

If I am fully vaxxed with Pfizer. Is a booster simply just getting a third shot of the Pfizer (a repeat of the 2nd shot) or is the third shot booster a uniquely composed payload that is different from the first two?

I ask because I was hearing chatter about people going into cvs and lying about their vaccination history to get a booster (e.g. already have 2 shots but pretending to only have one to get their "second shot" which is in fact the third as a booster). Does it work that way or are people just being foolish?

I ask because I'd be interested in getting a 3rd shot booster at my 8 month and 1 day.

As of now, the "booster" is the same shot.  Hence a lot of docs and researchers saying stuff like "don't call it a 'booster,' call it a third shot in the immunization process."

[washparkhorn 9973]

3 hours ago, slorch said:

Small blessings, that pay off after multiple months of discussions are nice.  Called 83 y/o mom to discuss my meeting a fencing rep at her house tomorrow.

”How are you feeling?”

” I feel great, but my arm hurts!“

” what happened? Did you bump it or fall?“

” no it was nothing like that. I just finally went and got the shot.”

I am glad that she did it. I know some on here would say it took way too long. Keep in mind, this is a hardheaded Texas woman. She wasn’t gonna do it until she was ready. I’m just glad it happened.

(unblocking slorch)

That is great news. Nice job.

[washparkhorn 9973]

I like the way DC separates the data between vaccinated and unvaccinated:

Utah as well:

[DonkeyCigars 143]

7 minutes ago, Liquor and Poker said:

As of now, the "booster" is the same shot.  Hence a lot of docs and researchers saying stuff like "don't call it a 'booster,' call it a third shot in the immunization process."

Okay, so this just adds more questions and complexities to my pea brain. What the heck.

Are you supposed to proactively get a 3rd shot because a unique booster isn't ready yet? Is a unique booster coming and we should just wait and that is better?

What is the formal and published guidance on all this and where is it coming from and what is the cadence?

[Brisketexan 106907]

4 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

I like the way DC separates the data between vaccinated and unvaccinated:

Utah as well:

Damn...that's brutal.  For example, in DC, since January 18th of this year, 98% of deaths are unvaccinated, only 2% are vaccinated.

That data would be even better explained by also showing the pool size of each group (which is probably impossible, as the pool size changed over time as people got vaccinated).  But even if we were able to start it at a point in time when we knew that over 40% of the population was vaccinated there.....we'd be looking at numbers that show that 98% of the deaths come from only 60% of the population.

But seriously, you have anti-vaxxers who are repeatedly disseminating the exact OPPOSITE as facts: "most of the sick people were vaccinated!" and shit like that.

[Brisketexan 106907]

4 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Okay, so this just adds more questions and complexities to my pea brain. What the heck.

Are you supposed to proactively get a 3rd shot because a unique booster isn't ready yet? Is a unique booster coming and we should just wait and that is better?

What is the formal and published guidance on all this and where is it coming from and what is the cadence?

Short answer: the additional shot is about increasing the amount of antibodies in your system.  It is not about customizing the vaccine to tackle a specific strain.  The antibodies produced by the vaccines ARE EFFECTIVE against Delta (that is, the vaccines create antibodies to target the spike protein, and the Delta strain still has that, so your Pfizer-stimulated antibodies take out Delta viruses functionally the same as any other strain).  The challenge with Delta is the rate of viral replication outpaces the rate of antibody production, which declines over time after vaccination.

Get vaccinated, and your body starts cranking out antibodies.  It does so for quite some time.  Then, it tapers down.  If you want to keep antibody production high, you have to stimulate the body into doing so.  So....another vaccine shot does that.

[atomheartbevo 90651]

5 hours ago, JesusSweatDuck said:

No mention of what us poor J&Jers should do...

[The Dog 44861]

17 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Okay, so this just adds more questions and complexities to my pea brain. What the heck.

Are you supposed to proactively get a 3rd shot because a unique booster isn't ready yet? Is a unique booster coming and we should just wait and that is better?

What is the formal and published guidance on all this and where is it coming from and what is the cadence?

not a doc or anything but what I've seen and read is that the additional shot allows your bod to create more antibodies, and therefore shore up the defense against Delta which has a higher viral load. More viral load means more antibodies required to have sufficient efficacy against infection. It's why Moderna is much more effective against Delta than Pfizer - it's a larger dose (1 mL vs 0.6 mL total) so you make more antibodies. 

I'm all for being corrected if I'm wrong. Just what I remember seeing.

[DonkeyCigars 143]

6 minutes ago, The Dog said:

not a doc or anything but what I've seen and read is that the additional shot allows your bod to create more antibodies, and therefore shore up the defense against Delta which has a higher viral load. More viral load means more antibodies required to have sufficient efficacy against infection. It's why Moderna is much more effective against Delta than Pfizer - it's a larger dose (1 mL vs 0.6 mL total) so you make more antibodies. 

I'm all for being corrected if I'm wrong. Just what I remember seeing.

And does it stand to reason that the higher viral load and dose (1mL vs .6mL) is the reason the Moderna side effects were reportedly worse than Pfizer (and J&J, but we are all onboard with shaming J&J as not a real vaccine, right?)? Your body was sicker for the few days after due to getting more? 

Edited August 18, 2021 by DonkeyCigars

[Brisketexan 106907]

6 minutes ago, The Dog said:

not a doc or anything but what I've seen and read is that the additional shot allows your bod to create more antibodies, and therefore shore up the defense against Delta which has a higher viral load. More viral load means more antibodies required to have sufficient efficacy against infection. It's why Moderna is much more effective against Delta than Pfizer - it's a larger dose (1 mL vs 0.6 mL total) so you make more antibodies. 

I'm all for being corrected if I'm wrong. Just what I remember seeing.

Yep.  And likewise, I'm fine with being corrected.  I'm not a doctor, I just like to snap on a rubber glove from time to time and stick....wait, probably too much info for this forum.

[The Dog 44861]

Just now, DonkeyCigars said:

And does it stand to reason that the higher viral load and dose (1mL vs .6mL) is the reason the Moderna side effects were worse? Your body was sicker for the few days after due to getting more? 

possibly - not worse but IIRC side effects were more common (not necessarily more severe) in Moderna than Pfizer. it wasn't much but there was a difference. 

regardless, everyone needs another shot to tamp down Delta. 

[DonkeyCigars 143]

4 minutes ago, The Dog said:

possibly - not worse but IIRC side effects were more common (not necessarily more severe) in Moderna than Pfizer. it wasn't much but there was a difference. 

regardless, everyone needs another shot to tamp down Delta. 

But if a booster is coming, you can wait on that as your next shot. This not only seems like the best practice, but a more responsible route, versus just taking a repeated 2nd shot to hold you over. Unless you got fully vaxxed in like Feb or March (I think it was old and sick people who qualified then) whose 8 months will run up before the booster is available. Otherwise the best practice is to wait on the Booster.

Do I have that all right?

Lastly, where are you people hearing all this and getting this guidance from? Are there press conferences? Are there scheduled updates coming from the CDC or some other centrally governing body? What is the cadence or posting schedule, etc.? 

Surely we can't all just be word of mouth gossiping about all this and reading forums and having to collate and synthesize into a single understanding from dozens of inputs that vary wildly, right?

Sorry for the barrage of questions!

Edited August 18, 2021 by DonkeyCigars

[safe sex 12011]

6 hours ago, Pancho said:

Thought I read somewhere were 50% of nurses in America were vaccinated compared to nearly 90% of physicians.  Maybe @trauma babe can confirm. 

 

That could be accurate. "Nurses" is a pretty broad category. I'm going to be a bit of a gross snob again and point out that almost a fifth of all nurses in America are "practical" or "vocational" nurses, which in Texas is two semesters worth of classes. An LVN is basically a clinical assistant who is allowed to dispense a very limited selection of drugs. A very useful type of nurse, but one that is being phased out by most healthcare organizations other than nursing homes, assisted living, etc. Of course that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of anti-vax RNs out there, as well. But I feel like the educational gap between different types of nurses is generally much larger than that of different types of medical doctors.

I'd be very interested to see vax rates compared between the different levels of nursing: LVN/PCN, RN (ADN), RN (BSN), MSN, APRN (MSN), APRN (DNP). Presumably anti-vax/anti-mask nurses are more concentrated in the lower half of the hierarchy, but regardless, there are entirely too many within nursing as a whole. 

Edited August 18, 2021 by trauma babe
words

[Cheeseweasel 26439]

6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Yep.  And likewise, I'm fine with being corrected.  I'm not a doctor, I just like to snap on a rubber glove from time to time and stick....wait, probably too much info for this forum.

You using the whole fist doc? 

[Captainant 28547]

7 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Lastly, where are you people hearing all this and getting this guidance from? Are there press conferences? Are there scheduled updates coming from the CDC or some other centrally governing body? What is the cadence or posting schedule, etc.? 

If only there was some engine with which we could search the WEB and find up to date guidance from the CDC

 

[Mole 4341]

16 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I just like to snap on a rubber glove from time to time and stick....wait, probably too much info for this forum.

Medice, cura te ipsum.

[Anastasis 23721]

16 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Short answer: the additional shot is about increasing the amount of antibodies in your system.  It is not about customizing the vaccine to tackle a specific strain.  The antibodies produced by the vaccines ARE EFFECTIVE against Delta (that is, the vaccines create antibodies to target the spike protein, and the Delta strain still has that, so your Pfizer-stimulated antibodies take out Delta viruses functionally the same as any other strain).  The challenge with Delta is the rate of viral replication outpaces the rate of antibody production, which declines over time after vaccination.

Get vaccinated, and your body starts cranking out antibodies.  It does so for quite some time.  Then, it tapers down.  If you want to keep antibody production high, you have to stimulate the body into doing so.  So....another vaccine shot does that.

Yeah, this is my basic understanding.  You get a bump in AB levels with the booster, which should increase the body's ability to push back on an infection quickly. Without the booster, you have memory cells that can respond, just not as quickly as already circulating ABs. So the boosters perhaps reduce the number of breakthrough infections, but even without the boosters you are back stopped by the memory cells that come on and prevent severe disease.

So the question is, what is the intended end point here: preventing infection or preventing severe disease? Arguably the boosters don't substantially move the needle on the latter (not a lot of room to move it), but do impact the former (esp in case of delta with it's break through potential). Man there are a variety of public health angles that can be taken here, esp. when you consider vaccine inequity world wide.

My perspective, I'll line my ass up as early as possible, and in the mean time try to get my elderly family members boosted while we wait for pediatric authorizations.  

[TexEx15 17953]

No CR. 

[Captainant 28547]

1 minute ago, TexEx15 said:

No CR. 

This is great news. It's criminal that nursing staff at skilled nursing facilities weren't required to be vaccinated. Don't like it? Don't care for other people's loved ones for a living.

[DonkeyCigars 143]

17 minutes ago, Captainant said:

If only there was some engine with which we could search the WEB and find up to date guidance from the CDC

 

Your search results in 7 different publications/inputs, which is exactly the opposite of what I asked.

Are you so blinded by my username that your limited critical thinking abilities get choked out by your haste to constantly try and dunk on me, even if you are at the 3 point line, as the message board equivalent of a Spud Webb?

 

Here it is again, if you want to try again (of course you can just simply ignore and keep scrolling and let an adult give an answer):

Lastly, where are you people hearing all this and getting this guidance from? Are there press conferences? Are there scheduled updates coming from the CDC or some other centrally governing body? What is the cadence or posting schedule, etc.? 

Surely we can't all just be word of mouth gossiping about all this and reading forums and having to collate and synthesize into a single understanding from dozens of inputs that vary wildly, right?

Edited August 18, 2021 by DonkeyCigars

[Captainant 28547]

1 minute ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Your search results in 7 different publications/inputs, which is exactly the opposite of what I asked.

Are you so blinded by my username that your limited critical thinking abilities get choked out by your haste to try and dunk on me, even if you are at the 3 point line, as the messageboard equivalent of a Spud Webb?

Moreso to point out that it's not that hard to take ownership of your own information. The CDC link is the top hit (in my Google), and at the top of the CDC page is a link to the HHS guidance. 

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0818-covid-19-booster-shots.html

Trying to teach a donkey to fish here. It's obviously not working well. 

[SquishMitten 10497]

My wife has a reactive airway

Crazy. That’s exactly what my wife got immediately after we got married

[DonkeyCigars 143]

1 minute ago, Captainant said:

Moreso to point out that it's not that hard to take ownership of your own information. The CDC link is the top hit (in my Google), and at the top of the CDC page is a link to the HHS guidance. 

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0818-covid-19-booster-shots.html

Trying to teach a donkey to fish here. It's obviously not working well. 

Thank you.