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COVID-19 vaccine discussion

Texas Jeff

By Texas Jeff
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dcar00

dcar00 14963

Posted
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On 3/17/2021 at 3:22 PM, Anastasis said:

APH is a total shit show.  I have been trying to cancel myself from their list, but their portal is shit. Looks like I got auto booked last night for an appointment at noon today. Tried to go into the portal to cancel it and it throws up some message about some code they were running being borked.  I still can't remove myself from the list, cancel appointment or anything else. 

wife got hers on day 52 which was fine.  but yeah APH isn't used to dealing with online stuff, that's not their charter.

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Dontshootrude
Dontshootrude

Reading the last couple pages of this thread, I can't help but jump in here.  I'm a molecular biologist.  I'm happy to verify with the mods, just PM me so I don't dox myself.  I have not read most of

EE2B
EE2B

This was posted by an ER doc from a local hospital: I have been mostly silent on the COVID surge but I feel it’s a duty and responsibility for healthcare professionals to report what we are seeing an

Somnio
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You're a fascist who wishes death and suffering upon people.  You're why genocide has happened throughout history.  I've seen your vile posts before.  You need help.  Seriously, I'll swallow my pride

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Anastasis

Anastasis 23718

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1 hour ago, midtown said:

As I've said before.  Can the CDC and other experts talk about this?  Or should we just continue to tell people science sucks and we have to wear masks for ever.

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/pfizer-vaccine-shows-94-effectiveness-asymptomatic-transmission-covid/story?id=76389615

Are there any vaccines against viral diseases that don't also effectively prevent asymptomatic transmission?

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XYZ

XYZ 2154

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4 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Are there any vaccines against viral diseases that don't also effectively prevent asymptomatic transmission?

The traditional vaccines (attenuated or dead virus) give you sterilizing immunity.

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Heme Doc

Heme Doc 417

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6 hours ago, midtown said:

As I've said before.  Can the CDC and other experts talk about this?  Or should we just continue to tell people science sucks and we have to wear masks for ever.

 

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/pfizer-vaccine-shows-94-effectiveness-asymptomatic-transmission-covid/story?id=76389615

 

It’s fucking maddening and infuriating.  

Lots of data now showing that this vaccine is really good at preventing infection...period.  Not just symptomatic infection.  And if you can’t get it, how the fuck are you going to spread it?  Then why do you need to wear a fucking mask?  I’ll wear a mask if you want me to.  But right for me, a vaccinated person, the mask probably does as much to protect me as wearing a monacle.  At least the CDC said vaccinated people don’t need to wear masks or distance when around other vaccinated individuals 

My office mandates masks in everyone entering the building (obviously).  Like 80% of my patients in clinic have already been fully vaccinated.  Both me and the patient still wear masks in the room.   I leave the patient room and then go back to the nurses area to shoot the shit with my partners and nurses (all vaccinated).  We all take our masks off.  

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Anastasis

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1 hour ago, Heme Doc said:

It’s fucking maddening and infuriating.  

Lots of data now showing that this vaccine is really good at preventing infection...period.  Not just symptomatic infection.  And if you can’t get it, how the fuck are you going to spread it?  Then why do you need to wear a fucking mask?  I’ll wear a mask if you want me to.  But right for me, a vaccinated person, the mask probably does as much to protect me as wearing a monacle.  At least the CDC said vaccinated people don’t need to wear masks or distance when around other vaccinated individuals 

My office mandates masks in everyone entering the building (obviously).  Like 80% of my patients in clinic have already been fully vaccinated.  Both me and the patient still wear masks in the room.   I leave the patient room and then go back to the nurses area to shoot the shit with my partners and nurses (all vaccinated).  We all take our masks off.  

It’s all kinda crazy. Like how did vaccines may not reduce transmission even become a thing?

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Anastasis

Anastasis 23718

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1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:


I hate to rep you, but truth is truth.

Problem is that the inconsistency and flaws are easily identified and given the social media landscape the dishonest messaging become counterproductive. Just tell people the truth.  That should not be too hard. 

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 106894

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Problem is that the inconsistency and flaws are easily identified and given the social media landscape the dishonest messaging become counterproductive. Just tell people the truth.  That should not be too hard. 

The truth? And have it actually accepted and acknowledged by people? You’re adorable.

Truth doesn’t matter.

Well meaning lies don’t matter.

Most people will only believe what they want to believe. That’s all there is to that. And you know I’m right. It doesn’t matter what anyone says, it only matters what they want to hear.
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Anastasis

Anastasis 23718

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3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:


The truth? And have it actually accepted and acknowledged by people? You’re adorable.

Truth doesn’t matter.

Well meaning lies don’t matter.

Most people will only believe what they want to believe. That’s all there is to that. And you know I’m right. It doesn’t matter what anyone says, it only matters what they want to hear.

Truth is not predicated on it being acknowledged. Propaganda otoh is the realm you speak of. Let's just be clear on which is which. 

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 106894

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Truth is not predicated on it being acknowledged. Propaganda otoh is the realm you speak of. Let's just be clear on which is which. 

There is no longer any difference in any of it. It doesn’t matter. Say what you want. The truth. Lies. Propaganda. It doesn’t matter. People seek the story they want, and this “digital dark age” we are in let’s them find that exact story. Easily. On repeat.

It’s a post-facts world.
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Anastasis

Anastasis 23718

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1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:


There is no longer any difference in any of it. It doesn’t matter. Say what you want. The truth. Lies. Propaganda. It doesn’t matter. People seek the story they want, and this “digital dark age” we are in let’s them find that exact story. Easily. On repeat.

It’s a post-facts world.

Sure. You didn't invent the ledge my friend. 

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gmr548

gmr548 16699

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14 hours ago, Anastasis said:

It’s all kinda crazy. Like how did vaccines may not reduce transmission even become a thing?

 

14 hours ago, Anastasis said:

More like dishonest public health messaging borne out of necessity as a result of the right out stupidity of the general population. 

You kind of answered your own question. I'd say I don't think it was dishonesty more than a mistake/incompetence. It wasn't untrue early on when the message was "We don't know if these vaccines curb asymptomatic transmission..." It should have absolutely been framed better than "... so if vaccinated, continue to pretty much try to avoid all risk as if unvaccinated." That's 1.) An extreme message people are going to ignore, and 2.) A great way to get that chunk of the population that aren't dipshit hardline antivaxxers, but generally low info/apathetic about the whole thing, to just say "Well what's the point?" and end up skipping it.

And it's a fair point that a good chunk of this country is too dumb to be talked to like adults. "We don't know for sure. There's a good chance they do curb asymptomatic transmission, but we can't know that, or how effectively they do, until we get real world data. Obviously being vaccinated changes the risk calculus but probably better to hold off on the highest risk situations until we have a clearer picture." If that was the word coming out in January people may well have just fuck it way too early.

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gmr548

gmr548 16699

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1 minute ago, Pato del Muerto said:

The alternative is to say that the vaccinated can return to normal life and be maskless, and have every anti-masker claim vaccinated status when approached about masking. 

Yeah, to some extent there is no right answer.

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Snake Diggity

Snake Diggity 4714

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13 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

The alternative is to say that the vaccinated can return to normal life and be maskless, and have every anti-masker claim vaccinated status when approached about masking. 

Would’ve been great if there’d been some kind of unifying message around collectively reaching a certain vaccination goal (200M?).

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956 Worldwide

956 Worldwide 35594

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On 3/16/2021 at 4:35 PM, Liquor and Poker said:

Vaccine skepticism is off the charts in Europe, and not in the former Eastern Bloc (where I would have guessed).  Mostly places like France, Germany, Belgium - traditional Continental Western Europe.  So the politicians are having to tread lightly to avoid further spread of the perception that the vaccine is some low-tech Logan's Run scenario.  That's the real reason for the silly "pause to investigate."

Pretty much this.  It was only AstraZeneca. All of Europe is a hellscape of anti-van disinformation fueled by the Kremlin. Long-term, you do more damage not going through the charade of a couple day “pause” to investigate one brand, even if it is stupid. Don’t give the people room to “just ask questions.”

I live in Europe and even among normal, pro-vax people it’s hilarious to see the armchair pharmacologists talking about the different vaccines. For those keeping score, Pfizer is the Cadillac (U-S-A!). Moderna is a solidly middle class, AstraZeneca is the off-brand. When it gets here, Johnson and Johnson will likely be right below Moderna.

Sputnik V is for people who have multiple coordinated tracksuits. 

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Pato del Muerto

Pato del Muerto 53498

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16 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

The Pfizer vaccine has been developed by an American corporation called Pfizerin New York and BioNTech, a German biotechnology company based in Mainz, Germany. 

I knew it was something. Maybe the German company did all the development using Pfizer money, and then pfizer ran the clinicals. 

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SizzleChest

SizzleChest 8314

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They did most everything jointly, from the conduct of the trials to manufacturing.  BioNTech produced the clinical supply (vaccine) for the trials.  Pfizer provided the upfront cash to fund the trials (~$100MM), and BioNTech will refund 50% back to Pfizer.  So, it's really a joint effort up and down the line.  

BioNTech stands to receive about 3/4 of a billion from Pfizer ultimately.

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Guest Lobo

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4 hours ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Isn’t Pfizer german?

That would explain Miller's working names for "Operation Warp Speed" around the White House

Operation Blitzkrieg and/or Operation Mach Schnell 

he always seemed a little too giddy when he was saying it.  

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XYZ

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So, do these mRNA covid vaccines prevent transmission of the virus or not? Why isn’t this known yet? Or is it known but they don’t want to spill the beans? Like, if it does prevent transmission, then vaccinated people can stop all of this social distancing stuff three weeks after getting the vaccine. If, on the other hand, it doesn’t prevent transmission, then we are kind of fucked.

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956 Worldwide

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21 hours ago, XYZ said:

So, do these mRNA covid vaccines prevent transmission of the virus or not? Why isn’t this known yet? Or is it known but they don’t want to spill the beans? Like, if it does prevent transmission, then vaccinated people can stop all of this social distancing stuff three weeks after getting the vaccine. If, on the other hand, it doesn’t prevent transmission, then we are kind of fucked.

They likely do, and there are some hints of studies coming out that will show that.  But the reason it isn't known is because it takes time to gather the data and analyze it.  

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/22291959/covid-vaccines-transmission-protect-spread-virus-moderna-pfizer

 

 

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Enchubben

Enchubben 5600

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On 3/19/2021 at 6:22 PM, Anastasis said:

It’s all kinda crazy. Like how did vaccines may not reduce transmission even become a thing?

ahem.....

On 3/2/2021 at 2:10 PM, GreenspointTexas said:

Have u been living under a rock? You can still transmit the disease to others even with vaccination

 

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Txzen

Txzen 514

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On 3/19/2021 at 8:43 AM, Anastasis said:

Are there any vaccines against viral diseases that don't also effectively prevent asymptomatic transmission?

Yeah, influenza is a great example : link

Quote

Although sterilizing immunity—preventing infection entirely—is a desirable goal for influenza vaccines, not every vaccine can or even must achieve it to confer meaningful clinical benefit. Currently licensed pneumococcal vaccines confer only modest protection against Streptococcus pneumoniae pneumonia in adults. However, the rarer and more fatal complication of invasive pneumococcal disease (IPD) is reduced by approximately three-quarters in vaccinated elderly adults [50,51,52]. Bacille Calmette-Guérin (BCG), an attenuated strain of Mycobacterium bovis, has been administered to nearly 4 billion people worldwide since 1921, primarily to young children in whom it is highly effective at preventing the potentially fatal complication of disseminated tuberculosis. However, BCG vaccination does not prevent acquisition of latent tuberculosis infection (LTBI), its protection is not long-lasting, and it is relatively ineffective when given to adults, particularly in preventing the reactivation of LTBI into active pulmonary tuberculosis [53]. However, the drastic reduction in pediatric mortality that BCG provides makes the vaccine both clinically effective and cost effective in parts of the world where M. tuberculosis remains endemic [54].

The whole review is a pretty good read. I've also seen a paper where the intranasal flu vaccine was more effective at inducing sterilizing immunity than the intramuscular version, but can't seem to find it at the moment. 

But as mentioned, the continued requirement for masks has much more to do with the fact that places like states are only single-digit vaccination status, as well as to prevent the Karens from non-compliance by claiming to be vaccinated.

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GreenspointTexas

GreenspointTexas 9969

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42 minutes ago, Enchubben said:

ahem.....

 

Nevermind the fact that you had to dig a few weeks back to get to that post but what you quoted me saying does not contradict what Anastasis is saying. Of course vaccines decrease transmission. There still isnt enough evidence at this point to know whether they completely stop asymptomatic transmission (they likely wont ever completely “stop” it). CDC says the same and still advocates wearing a mask. No reason AT THIS TIME to tell people who are vaccinated to stop wearing masks. 

 

With less than 15% of the population vaccinated, I have no clue why someone wouldnt wear a mask in public at this point. When we have 70% of the population vaccinated, its a different conversation. 
 

We still arent at the point of “Im vaccinated, goodbye masks forever!” As much as yall hate wearing masks for a few minutes out of your day, its really best to continue wearing them until more are vaccinated

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/fully-vaccinated-people.html

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Heme Doc

Heme Doc 417

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22 hours ago, XYZ said:

So, do these mRNA covid vaccines prevent transmission of the virus or not? Why isn’t this known yet? Or is it known but they don’t want to spill the beans? Like, if it does prevent transmission, then vaccinated people can stop all of this social distancing stuff three weeks after getting the vaccine. If, on the other hand, it doesn’t prevent transmission, then we are kind of fucked.

1.  Yes.  They absolutely do

2.  It is known.  Just not reported on as much.  Here’s some recent data from Israel

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2101765

and Mayo Clinic

https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid/ciab229/6167855

They do prevent transmission.  Nothing is fucked here, dude.  

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Heme Doc

Heme Doc 417

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39 minutes ago, GreenspointTexas said:

Nevermind the fact that you had to dig a few weeks back to get to that post but what you quoted me saying does not contradict what Anastasis is saying. Of course vaccines decrease transmission. There still isnt enough evidence at this point to know whether they completely stop asymptomatic transmission (they likely wont ever completely “stop” it). CDC says the same and still advocates wearing a mask. No reason AT THIS TIME to tell people who are vaccinated to stop wearing masks. 

 

With less than 15% of the population vaccinated, I have no clue why someone wouldnt wear a mask in public at this point. When we have 70% of the population vaccinated, its a different conversation. 
 

We still arent at the point of “Im vaccinated, goodbye masks forever!” As much as yall hate wearing masks for a few minutes out of your day, its really best to continue wearing them until more are vaccinated

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/fully-vaccinated-people.html

Agree with this.

Vaccines stop transmission, although not 100%.  So until more folks vaccinated we need to continue to be cautious.  

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midtown

midtown 3354

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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, Heme Doc said:

Vaccines stop transmission, although not 100%.  So until more folks vaccinated we need to continue to be cautious.

And I think a lot of people are down with this.  However.  At some point the polarity will flip and a larger percentage of the public will be vaccinated including probably the bulk of those over 50 or "1B's".   At that point we've, in theory, protected those most likely to be hospitalized and/or die and at that point and the default should be normal life and optional masks.  If business want to continue to mandate them that's fine.  I assume airlines will stick with it for at least through the year by way of federal mandate.   If you are still scared about being out with maskless people you should stay home.

Edited by midtown
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