Dave Chappelle

[Mdhorn 5949]

17 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Netflix CEO is crawdadding a bit and apologizing for how he handled the defense of the Chappelle special, so that's at least something. Whether you think it is good or bad or kowtowing to cancel culture I think depends on which side of the divide you sit.

I hate the word cancel culture because everybody does it--throughout my time on this planet, whether it was the Dixie Chicks, NWA/2 Live Crew, Andrew Dice Clay, whatever.  I can't imagine Dave gives a shit one way or another--how is trans anything a big role in his environment, unless he actively seeks it?  It's not a large enough community to put a dent in his acts--people still pay a lot of money to see him and tix sell out damn near immediately, and nobody goes to a DC show hoping he will speak at length about the trans community. He likes to provoke and invite criticism on hot topics.  It's attention which he invites and can sell, whether it's another special, series, or individual shows, he's being talked about and is smart enough that he can point to the fact that he doesn't at any time condemn trans people, just actions.  

Trans people, especially kids have it hard--identity issues, peer and family acceptance, and religious wackos.  I can't imagine.  But the pronouns usage is silly because everybody has names--use them, or say things like how are you doing, what are your/their plans, etc.  There's so many ways around gender pronouns that it's a non-issue.  

[BabaYaga 15294]

His line in the special summed his point up perfectly:  why is is easier for a trans person change their gender than it is for Cassius Clay to change his name.  

[BabaYaga 15294]

1 hour ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Netflix CEO is crawdadding a bit and apologizing for how he handled the defense of the Chappelle special, so that's at least something. Whether you think it is good or bad or kowtowing to cancel culture I think depends on which side of the divide you sit.

Both "sides" have sacred cows.  More than a few veterans have commented on how the right gets spun up if/when you make fun of veterans.  Nothing is off limits.  That's comedy.  It pushes the boundaries and should continue to do so.  

In fact, there's a HUGE market for veteran (military) comedians to make an entire career on this subject.  

Edited October 20, 2021 by BabaYaga

[DonkeyCigars 143]

12 minutes ago, Mdhorn said:

I hate the word cancel culture because everybody does it--throughout my time on this planet, whether it was the Dixie Chicks, NWA/2 Live Crew, Andrew Dice Clay, whatever.  I can't imagine Dave gives a shit one way or another--how is trans anything a big role in his environment, unless he actively seeks it?  It's not a large enough community to put a dent in his acts--people still pay a lot of money to see him and tix sell out damn near immediately, and nobody goes to a DC show hoping he will speak at length about the trans community. He likes to provoke and invite criticism on hot topics.  It's attention which he invites and can sell, whether it's another special, series, or individual shows, he's being talked about and is smart enough that he can point to the fact that he doesn't at any time condemn trans people, just actions.  

Trans people, especially kids have it hard--identity issues, peer and family acceptance, and religious wackos.  I can't imagine.  But the pronouns usage is silly because everybody has names--use them, or say things like how are you doing, what are your/their plans, etc.  There's so many ways around gender pronouns that it's a non-issue.  

I think you missed my point. Not "cancel culture" directed to DC but rather to the NFLX CEO, who I said has come out and apologized for his defense of the special as it pertains to both media and internally with his employees and actions, etc.

Again, the point you seemed to miss was, it is much easier to cancel the non-celebrity CEO for optics and hot-button/social/political issues than it is DC, was my point, but for NFLX having a great Q3 earnings report and bounce back growth which insulates him from this latest stir.

Regardless, if I'm the Netflix CEO I apologize as he did for the optics and to get over this mess and then advertise my direct influence and impact to bring Squid Game to life even though depending on who you listen to, Squid Game as a sleeper hit and phenom hasn't been factored into the numbers and wasn't part of the Q3 earnings.

[Dutchrudder 11139]

The person fired for leaking info about the DC special, claims they didn't do it, but somehow all their company devices got wiped?  What a coincidence!  Cry me a fucking river dipshit. I think all she did was prevent further litigation from happening by destroying the evidence. I'd be surprised if Netflix doesn't have that info backed up elsewhere, and can pull it out if necessary.

Quote

"I collected the data, but I did not leak the data," says Pagels-Minor, who spoke to NPR. They said they shared the information internally among co-workers, but not to anyone outside the company, and added that when they were terminated, they weren't offered an opportunity to prove their case.

"It was just like: 'Hey, you're the person. You're gone,' " Pagels-Minor says.  In a statement, a Netflix spokesperson said that a discrepancy in Pagels-Minor's account had gone unexplained and that Pagels-Minor had wiped their electronic devices, "making any further investigation impossible.

[troph 24791]

2 hours ago, Dutchrudder said:

Maybe this has been discussed already, but I have a hard time getting past the glaringly obvious circumstances that this rabid bunch of pro-trans critics and trolls likely contributed to Daphne's actual suicide (Dave's Trans friend he talks about in the recent special).  She goes on Twitter to defend him after the previous special, Sticks and Stones, and kills herself 6 weeks after this social media shitstorm hits her. I don't see anyone talking about how insane these people are, and how vicious they are to those that don't believe the same things they do. 

How can you be more anti-trans than that? Attacking someone and bullying them for not thinking the same way as you when you're a so-called "ally" of this group that they obviously belong to? This isn't some life and death situation where some idiot parent won't get their child medical care, it's a question about a guy's character and how he sees a group of people different from himself. It would be great if these so-called "allies" could see the folly of their ways, but I doubt anyone who may have contributed to her death will lose any sleep over that, or see the hypocrisy. 

Nobody was taking Dave's rhetoric and using it as a basis to kill trans people. But amazingly enough, pro-trans people took offense to Daphne's defensive comments and bashed/bullied/ridiculed her enough to compound her depression and make her feel so worthless she killed herself.  Amazingly enough, that's not the headline, it's that Dave talked about genitals in a "transphobic" way, or "Dave Chappelle defends JK Rowling!". 

eating our own is a huge problem, it is with all minority groups.  I think what happened to Daphne is a huge concern and I'm sick about it - though DC rightfully acknowledged he might not have all the information. 

But DC did identify with JK and used the TERF term. agree or disagree with DC and JK, that's fine.  But you are probably not aware of the "TERF movement" and what it has done.  The TERF movement is directly responsible for the same kinds of bully tactics and pushing over the ledge that causes women like Daphne to kill themselves.  Doxxing is off limits here, but the TERF movement finds you, harasses you, exposes you, tries to get you fired, kicked out of your home, etc.  In the early years of my transition when I was "living on twitter" it was a major, major concern for all of us and on any given day a new case of serious harassment and doxxing came up.  Some women did kill themselves because of it. Transition is one of the most tactically difficult things I've ever done and if you are exposed before you are ready or if you are exposed when it's not a good situation for you, the harm that can befall you is a kind of devastation you simply cannot fathom or understand. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by troph

[BHMCruiser 1813]

3 hours ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Netflix CEO is crawdadding a bit and apologizing for how he handled the defense of the Chappelle special, so that's at least something. Whether you think it is good or bad or kowtowing to cancel culture I think depends on which side of the divide you sit.

or whether you're a thin-skinned authoritarian or not. Same church as the "explicit lyrics warrior moms," different pew.

[troph 24791]

@DonkeyCigars and @'stache are saying things I completely agree with and except for my added points about TERFs to Dutchrudder, I don't have much of an issue with most of the last page plus of posts.  DC can say what he wants, he just needs to own it and there is nothing inherently wrong with taking offense to his latest routine or thinking it wasn't funny. 

I also think making a way for trans comedians in a special way is kind a dumb.  if they are funny, the market will find them.  I do think we are at that point now where entertainment would welcome a really funny trans comedian.

Edited October 20, 2021 by troph

[atomheartbevo 89659]

1 hour ago, Mdhorn said:

Andrew Dice Clay

[BHMCruiser 1813]

4 minutes ago, troph said:

eating our own is a huge problem, it is with all minority groups.  I think what happened to Daphne is a huge concern and I'm sick about it - though DC rightfully acknowledged he might not have all the information. 

But DC did identify with JK and used the TERF term. agree or disagree with DC and JK, that's fine.  But you are probably not aware of the "TERF movement" and what it has done.  The TERT movement is directly responsible for the same kinds of bully tactics and pushing over the ledge that causes women like Daphne to kill themselves.  Doxxing is off limits here, but the TERF movement finds you, harasses you, exposes you, tries to get you fired, kicked out of your home, etc.  In the early years of my transition when I was "living on twitter" it was a major, major concern for all of us and on any given day a new case of serious harassment and doxxing came up.  Transition is one of the most tactically difficult things I've ever done and if you are exposed before you are ready or if you are exposed when it's not a good situation for you, the harm that can befall you is a kind of devastation you simply cannot fathom or understand. 

That's fucked up. You have my sympathy, if that means anything. 

[BHMCruiser 1813]

3 minutes ago, troph said:

@DonkeyCigars and @'stache are saying things I completely agree with and except for my added points about TERFs to Dutchrudder, I don't have much of an issue with most of the last page plus of posts.  DC can say what he wants, he just needs to own it and there is nothing inherently wrong with taking offense to his latest routine or thinking it wasn't funny. 

I also think making a way for trans comedians in a special way is kind a dumb.  if they are funny, the market will find them.  I do think we are at that point now where entertainment would welcome a really funny trans comedian.

What about Eddie Izzard?

[troph 24791]

4 minutes ago, BHMCruiser said:

That's fucked up. You have my sympathy, if that means anything. 

not seeking it out, but I do appreciate it.  I'm really here just to provide food for thought from the trans perspective and check back in after the planned walk out, and I fully support DC's right to say whatever he wants and for his supporters and critics to say what they want, that really is paramount.  but as to the TERFS, I'm a mentally tough, calculating bitch so fuck them I wasn't going to hit their radar and second if I did I wasn't going to off myself because of them.  also #hadsexdontcare enough times to know suicide isn't a solution.

Edited October 20, 2021 by troph

[troph 24791]

12 minutes ago, BHMCruiser said:

What about Eddie Izzard?

kinda irrelevant imo. She (or he) apparently is gender fluid so both pronouns apply. I will be honest, I cringe a lot on those in my community that are so iconoclastic about pronouns (zhe, zim, etc.), gender fluidity, bi-gender, all of that.  not saying it isn't real or true, especially for them, but it doesn't really help my personal journey.  pronouns are important I agree but then if you are truly in the middle, how does "they/them/theirs" even really satisfy?  I dunno, that's not me.  I am very careful though NOT to be the one that tears someone down in my community because I think doing that is wrong and just like with Loree in our community, how you talk about and to people can have devastating impacts.  I get feeling gender "in the middle" but for me that's a tomboy lesbian that has a bigger pick up truck than most men, wants to fish with the boys, is always DTF and doesn't throw a football like a girl.  So maybe my ultra femme trans women acquaintances cringe at me.  who knows.

Edited October 20, 2021 by troph

[Dutchrudder 11139]

58 minutes ago, troph said:

eating our own is a huge problem, it is with all minority groups.  I think what happened to Daphne is a huge concern and I'm sick about it - though DC rightfully acknowledged he might not have all the information. 

But DC did identify with JK and used the TERF term. agree or disagree with DC and JK, that's fine.  But you are probably not aware of the "TERF movement" and what it has done.  The TERF movement is directly responsible for the same kinds of bully tactics and pushing over the ledge that causes women like Daphne to kill themselves.  Doxxing is off limits here, but the TERF movement finds you, harasses you, exposes you, tries to get you fired, kicked out of your home, etc.  In the early years of my transition when I was "living on twitter" it was a major, major concern for all of us and on any given day a new case of serious harassment and doxxing came up.  Some women did kill themselves because of it. Transition is one of the most tactically difficult things I've ever done and if you are exposed before you are ready or if you are exposed when it's not a good situation for you, the harm that can befall you is a kind of devastation you simply cannot fathom or understand. 

I guess what I'm getting at is, I don't find it surprising that DC made jokes about trans people, nor do I find it newsworthy that he talked about JK Rowling. As headlines go, I wouldn't go that route after watching the special. 

I would have lead with, "Chappelle Accuses LGBT Community of Contributing to Suicide of Daphne Dorman".  I find that to be much more enraging than rehashing what JK Rowling said. I don't think that the critics who call DC transphobic are willing to accept the fact that they might be doing something wrong with the way they approach these issues. Demonizing, harassing and bullying people isn't the right way to go about it. DC is an entertainer, and people take this shit way too seriously and overreact to it. Of course DC is gonna keep tapping that well for more clicks, views, hits and ensuring he's very valuable to the next big network that asks him to do an hour special. I think he's found an easy target to bait, and he's gonna keep doing it until he gets bored, or finds a better topic to milk.  

[mchookem 16334]

regarding the pronouns...my best friend has a recently transitioned male in her family. my friend is extremely open-minded and loves her now-nephew dearly...but she was moved to tears when visiting us this summer b/c they had seen him quite a bit during the trip and she accidentally referred to him as 'her' or 'she' several times simply by habit and the nephew got increasingly annoyed and almost angry with her (my friend) and her kids.  

i can only imagine how difficult it is for the person experiencing the transition, but i think when people have known someone basically since birth, for 25+ years, as a certain gender, you have got to cut them some slack, especially when you know their heart is full of love for you regardless of your gender. not to mention basic things like learned english grammar.

i am also the first to admit that i don't understand the struggle b/c i have no first hand experience...but having said that, almost every friend i have that has/had an adolescent/teenage daughter has some story about the daughter and/or the daughter's friend(s) deciding they were trans, or gender-fluid of some sort. one friend's daughter decided at 14 she was a gay boy in a girl's body...so technically she was a girl who liked boys lol (which is ultimately back where she landed now at 19). i'm literally talking about 5 different unrelated families. given the odds/numbers discussed above, i can't help but think that for that age group, there is a lot of 'oh this is cool' type thing going on. 

which on the one hand makes me roll my eyes because 'kids today...', but on the other...at a minimum, as this generation ages, they should/are going to be much more open-minded if half of them 'went through a stage' as kids. 

i'm glad this thread turned into a more constructive discussion and not just stupid quips and obnoxious commentary about 'woke' culture 🙄. as with most things, there's a lot more nuance to the issue. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by mchookem

[BHMCruiser 1813]

1 hour ago, troph said:

kinda irrelevant imo. She (or he) apparently is gender fluid so both pronouns apply. I will be honest, I cringe a lot on those in my community that are so iconoclastic about pronouns (zhe, zim, etc.), gender fluidity, bi-gender, all of that.  not saying it isn't real or true, especially for them, but it doesn't really help my personal journey.  pronouns are important I agree but then if you are truly in the middle, how does "they/them/theirs" even really satisfy?  I dunno, that's not me.  I am very careful though NOT to be the one that tears someone down in my community because I think doing that is wrong and just like with Loree in our community, how you talk about and to people can have devastating impacts.  I get feeling gender "in the middle" but for me that's a tomboy lesbian that has a bigger pick up truck than most men, wants to fish with the boys, is always DTF and doesn't throw a football like a girl.  So maybe my ultra femme trans women acquaintances cringe at me.  who knows.

I just meant that Eddie Izzard could be considered a "really funny trans comedian." 

[WhatTheBuck 28779]

1 hour ago, troph said:

I also think making a way for trans comedians in a special way is kind a dumb.  if they are funny, the market will find them.  I do think we are at that point now where entertainment would welcome a really funny trans comedian

I don’t think Dave was offering to help Daphne because she was trans. I think he was trying to help another comedian. I thought he made that clear. He talked about how badly she bombed but still came out and sat up front for his set. And then she was funny. I think that, as an artist, the art is the most important thing to him and was looking to help a fellow artist. It could’ve been anyone. She just happened to be trans.

That was my take, anyway. 

[LTbear 4168]

57 minutes ago, mchookem said:

most every friend i have that has/had an adolescent/teenage daughter has some story about the daughter and/or the daughter's friend(s) deciding they were trans, or gender-fluid of some sort. one friend's daughter decided at 14 she was a gay boy in a girl's body...so technically she was a girl who liked boys lol (which is ultimately back where she landed now at 19). i'm literally talking about 5 different unrelated families. given the odds/numbers discussed above, i can't help but think that for that age group, there is a lot of 'oh this is cool' type thing going on. 

There's definitely some "this is a cool thing to do" BS in that age group, which is unfortunate because it demeans the experience of true trans folk. But hopefully none of your friends allowed their kids to even consider hormonal therapy or anything until they were fully beyond puberty. 

[WhatTheBuck 28779]

7 minutes ago, LTbear said:

There's definitely some "this is a cool thing to do" BS in that age group, which is unfortunate because it demeans the experience of true trans folk. But hopefully none of your friends allowed their kids to even consider hormonal therapy or anything until they were fully beyond puberty. 

I don’t have any interaction with young people in that age group but it doesn’t seem to me that inviting abuse and harassment would be seen as “a cool thing to do.”

[mchookem 16334]

...bc they aren't harassing and abusing each other. sort of like race with that age group - most of them really don't care.

well, these are all kids raised in Austin...i imagine it's probably NOT such a 'hey this would be cool' in BFE east Texas. 

and no, none of my friends or their kids actually took any action other than insisting they be called something else and dressing/acting differently for a time. the parents are/have mostly just let it run it's course. kids. 🙄 get off my lawn! 😄

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by mchookem

[BHMCruiser 1813]

59 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

I don’t think Dave was offering to help Daphne because she was trans. I think he was trying to help another comedian. I thought he made that clear. He talked about how badly she bombed but still came out and sat up front for his set. And then she was funny. I think that, as an artist, the art is the most important thing to him and was looking to help a fellow artist. It could’ve been anyone. She just happened to be trans.

That was my take, anyway. 

troph is saying Netflix should not carve out special space for trans comedy. If it's funny, it's funny, she reasons. But Tig Notaro has specials, so her theory is suspect. 

[MissingInAction 25068]

I don't care what someone is, claims to be, becoming, doesn't know, is fluid ,or whatever.

I've always been a sex positive person. As long as everyone is of age and consents then get it on how ever you see fit.

I cant keep up. I'm just a dude who loves tits in his face.

[Nivek 16928]

3 hours ago, mchookem said:

i can only imagine how difficult it is for the person experiencing the transition, but i think when people have known someone basically since birth, for 25+ years, as a certain gender, you have got to cut them some slack, especially when you know their heart is full of love for you regardless of your gender. not to mention basic things like learned english grammar.

 

One of my lifelong friends from childhood changed his name.  I couldn't stop calling him by his birth name and just as I started to make some progress with it, he told me, I can call him by the birth name.   He knew I was trying, still am.

[aggie08 21504]

6 hours ago, BabaYaga said:

His line in the special summed his point up perfectly:  why is is easier for a trans person change their gender than it is for Cassius Clay to change his name.  

"Why are societal norms in 2015 not the same as they were in 1964?" really qualifies as a great point?

[Deej 76772]

1 minute ago, aggie08 said:

"Why are societal norms in 2015 not the same as they were in 1964?" really qualifies as a great point?

Like half the country today wouldn't think Cassius Clay wasn't a terrorist after changing his name to Muhammad Ali. 

[troph 24791]

3 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

I don’t think Dave was offering to help Daphne because she was trans. I think he was trying to help another comedian. I thought he made that clear. He talked about how badly she bombed but still came out and sat up front for his set. And then she was funny. I think that, as an artist, the art is the most important thing to him and was looking to help a fellow artist. It could’ve been anyone. She just happened to be trans.

That was my take, anyway. 

I was talking about the Netflix employee asks for a special platform. 

Edited October 21, 2021 by troph

[troph 24791]

20 minutes ago, Deej said:

Like half the country today wouldn't think Cassius Clay wasn't a terrorist after changing his name to Muhammad Ali. 

Same half that thinks I’m going into a woman’s bathroom to rape and pillage. 

['stache 21813]

21 minutes ago, Deej said:

Like half the country today wouldn't think Cassius Clay wasn't a terrorist after changing his name to Muhammad Ali. 

Most of that today would be illegitimate ramblings from illegitimate people. Back then it was law and public policy enforceable by a super majority of people in power. So yeah, that was one of the really weak lines. It wasn't meant to be funny, but to make a point, and a dumb one at that.

[troph 24791]

3 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

I don’t have any interaction with young people in that age group but it doesn’t seem to me that inviting abuse and harassment would be seen as “a cool thing to do.”

It a lot of youth circles it’s no big deal. I think freedom to find yourself early is amazing. Most follow the odds, straight, not trans. Some don’t. 
 

pronouns for the people around transitioning folks are terribly difficult but true respect is easy to spot. Those that respect you work at it and get better eventually figuring it out. Patience matters on both sides.

[Deej 76772]

We’re 20 years into the 21st century and we have black men being hunted down and killed just for jogging through the “wrong” neighborhood and having cops kneel on their neck until they’re dead. Yup, we’ve really come a long way since then.

[mchookem 16334]

15 minutes ago, troph said:

Same half that thinks I’m going into a woman’s bathroom to rape and pillage. 

...and that brings us back to Dave and one of the salient points he did make about why all these 'bathroom' bills are such bullshit...

as he said, if i'm a boy and a trans woman comes in the men's restroom i'm gonna be way more confused and freaked out than i would be if i'm a girl and see that same woman come in the women's restroom. same for a girl with a trans man coming in the women's restroom...that's liable to scare/scar a kid way worse than the alternative. those laws are needlessly cruel not to mention pointless.  

[WhatTheBuck 28779]

I’ve seen hundreds and hundreds of concerts in my lifetime. Maybe more than a thousand if you count shows in bars and clubs where you just paid at the door. I couldn’t count how many times I’ve seen women use the men’s room because the line for the ladies room was too long. I may have even used a ladies room a few times when no one else was using it because the line for the men’s room was too long. (Possibly at a Rush show or just in a bar...definitely in a bar.)

There’s a different culture between the two. In the ladies room you only have stalls so who really cares? In the men’s room the standard is that you mind your own business anyway so it doesn’t matter who else is using the facilities. It’s not a social scene.

Dave was making jokes. You can decide for yourself whether or not you think they’re funny. But if you’re at the urinal in the men’s room then you’re not supposed to be paying attention to the person at the urinal next to you no matter who it is, even if it’s a trans woman who isn’t fully transitioned yet. You’re supposed to just stare straight ahead regardless. (Also, you never use a urinal next to another guy if you can possibly avoid it.)

[troph 24791]

No fucking chance I was walking into a men’s room during transition. No fucking way. I will cross over now for the reasons stated above but rarely mostly because men only use stalls to shit and I hate peeing next to any shitter man or woman. During transition, I did avoid bathrooms all together for a while because I was in it during the height of the “bathroom scare” starting with the ERO in Houston - which goes to the trans perspective, there’s nothing funny about trans bathroom jokes, nothing.  It was at that point in the routine that I had the physical desire to vomit. Decidedly not funny. If someone else thought it was funny that’s their prerogative. If DC is mad trans folk are offended by those jokes then he’s a hypocrite. 

Edited October 21, 2021 by troph

[Guest Lobo]

I personally didn't find the bit funny.  But I do find most of his controversial stuff to be fucking hilarious.  And like Dave, I believe there are absolutely no sacred cows.  Ever.  At all.  But if ain't funny, then it ain't funny.  Shock value =/= funny.  So you gotta be prepared for the blowback on that, and Dave seems to be having an issue with that right now.  But we're all just spinning our wheels on this.  

What is really amazing to me about this whole trans-bathroom thing is---it's been going on for three weeks and Dan Patrick hasn't said a word about it.  Very odd.

[BabaYaga 15294]

12 hours ago, aggie08 said:

"Why are societal norms in 2015 not the same as they were in 1964?" really qualifies as a great point?

You miss the point entirely.  Not shocked....

[aggie08 21504]

12 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

You miss the point entirely.  Not shocked....

Do tell...

 

[troph 24791]

21 minutes ago, Lobo said:

I personally didn't find the bit funny.  But I do find most of his controversial stuff to be fucking hilarious.  And like Dave, I believe there are absolutely no sacred cows.  Ever.  At all.  But if ain't funny, then it ain't funny.  Shock value =/= funny.  So you gotta be prepared for the blowback on that, and Dave seems to be having an issue with that right now.  But we're all just spinning our wheels on this.  

What is really amazing to me about this whole trans-bathroom thing is---it's been going on for three weeks and Dan Patrick hasn't said a word about it.  Very odd.

He’s in the quiet period of transition. Scared like hell, avoiding bathrooms and bathroom talk altogether. It’s a scary time no doubt. Rimshot. Thanks I’ll be here all night! 

[troph 24791]

And no sacred cows is fine, but he’s wide open for criticism then because well if I’m not immune from his crass brand of humor then he’s not immune to blowback either and THAT is the fundamental concern I have.  He wants to say whatever the fuck he wants but then wants to control the reaction. That’s a little bitch move and he deserves even more flack for that than the joke itself.  It’s the essence of male fragility. 

Edited October 21, 2021 by troph

[Guest Lobo]

I mean if a teenager in El Paso posts something about questioning his gender on social media, Dan Patrick files three bills in the Senate before the kid can get changed for football practice.  And here's probably the biggest nationwide conversation on trans-issues brought to us by the biggest comic/satirist in the nation...and DP is dead silent.  

Anyway, curious to see how Chappelle integrates this whole blowback thing into his next set/special.  He has a humorous way of looking back on himself with introspection that's rare to see in comedians.  Even more formal social commentators are unable to be objective with their past selves.  Dave's fucking brilliant at it.  

[BabaYaga 15294]

11 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

Do tell...

 

When did you watch the special?

[troph 24791]

His name change versus gender change joke is so divorced from reality it had zero humor at all. If you thought it funny you have no idea what it takes to change your gender and in some cases you simply just can’t.
 

Not only that, all it would take is an aggressive push at the state level and it could be reversed and at the federal level and my gender change could be completely reversed preventing international travel. 
 

I’ve never assumed and will never assume my gender change is legally permanent.  My life would be so fucked if that happened. Holy shit talk about a panic attack.

Edited October 21, 2021 by troph

[aggie08 21504]

3 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

When did you watch the special?

A few days ago. Had no issue with it, other than not being particularly funny. That line fell flat as fuck.

[Dutchrudder 11139]

So what is not "off limits" with regard to trans related jokes? Anything?

I get that some things are more offensive, edgy or downright painful for those that have had to experience it firsthand. I don't believe Dave wants anyone to relive that due to his jokes, but I cut him more slack than his detractors. But at some point, in order for there to be equality, these related topics have to become normalized and available for joking. If they are taboo, then is there nothing a comedian can say about anything trans?

He made several gay jokes, and nobody seems to give a shit about that (none that I have read at least). Maybe it's because being gay has become mostly normalized by a good amount of American society, so it's not a hot button issue anymore? Maybe that's a sign of progress, or maybe there are bigger fish to fry. Either way, the goal should be to get to where people like Dave making jokes about trans issues isn't news worthy, because rehashing the criticism with the woke police every time someone offends isn't going to change hearts and minds.

[BabaYaga 15294]

8 minutes ago, troph said:

And no sacred cows is fine, but he’s wide open for criticism then because well if I’m not immune from his crass brand of humor then he’s not immune to blowback either and THAT is the fundamental concern I have.  He wants to say whatever the fuck he wants but then wants to control the reaction. That’s a little bitch move and he deserves even more flack for that than the joke itself.  It’s the essence of male fragility. 

Immune to criticism?  Are you just now learning about Chappelle?  Did you ever watch the Chappelle show back when it aired?  Black Bush?  Silky Johnson? Clayton Bigsby?  He's taken shit his whole career....which is the point.  It's comedy.  There are no subjects that are "off limits"

And control the reaction?  WTF?  They tried to buy him off and "control" him back when the Chappelle showed aired to the tune of a $50M contract and he walked.  Miss that part of the special?  He brought even it up.  If nothing else, you cannot say he is not a man of conviction.  

 

[troph 24791]

1 minute ago, Dutchrudder said:

So what is not "off limits" with regard to trans related jokes? Anything?

I get that some things are more offensive, edgy or downright painful for those that have had to experience it firsthand. I don't believe Dave wants anyone to relive that due to his jokes, but I cut him more slack than his detractors. But at some point, in order for there to be equality, these related topics have to become normalized and available for joking. If they are taboo, then is there nothing a comedian can say about anything trans?

He made several gay jokes, and nobody seems to give a shit about that (none that I have read at least). Maybe it's because being gay has become mostly normalized by a good amount of American society, so it's not a hot button issue anymore? Maybe that's a sign of progress, or maybe there are bigger fish to fry. Either way, the goal should be to get to where people like Dave making jokes about trans issues isn't news worthy, because rehashing the criticism with the woke police every time someone offends isn't going to change hearts and minds.

I just said no sacred cows is fine. What part of that did you not get? It was the very first thing I said. Strawman argument.  Secondly the gay joke about stonewall was addressed earlier. Finally he has an extremely valid point about white gay men and how fast they’ve achieved full equality. It’s actually an issue in LGBTQ circles. Some white gay men want the less fortunate rainbow club members to shush. That was one of DC’s points that was entirely valid through and through. 

[BabaYaga 15294]

6 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

A few days ago. Had no issue with it, other than not being particularly funny. That line fell flat as fuck.

Daphne's sister summed it up better than anyone:

Quote

“What he’s saying to the LGBTQ family is, ‘I see you. Do you see me? I’m mourning my friend in the best way I know how. Can you see me? Can you allow me that?,’'

“This was a call to come together, that two oppressed factions of our nation put down their keyboards and make peace. How sad that this message was lost in translation.”

And my earlier point about societal norms, Chappelle's point is that you "think" that they have changed, but they really haven't.  Hence his leading line:

Quote

“I have never had a problem with transgender people. If you listen to what I’m saying clearly, my problem has always been with white people,”........... “Gay people are minorities until they need to be white again.”

 

[troph 24791]

2 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Immune to criticism?  Are you just now learning about Chappelle?  Did you ever watch the Chappelle show back when it aired?  Black Bush?  Silky Johnson? Clayton Bigsby?  He's taken shit his whole career....which is the point.  It's comedy.  There are no subjects that are "off limits"

And control the reaction?  WTF?  They tried to buy him off and "control" him back when the Chappelle showed aired to the tune of a $50M contract and he walked.  Miss that part of the special?  He brought even it up.  If nothing else, you cannot say he is not a man of conviction.  

 

There is nothing in your response above that remotely addresses my initial post.
 

He wants to be immune he wants to control the reaction. I didn’t say he could. Please read my posts in full with a mind oriented toward understanding instead of looking for an argument. I’m approaching this conversation with honesty and nuance it would be great if you’d do the same. If you can’t that’s fine but we don’t have anything to talk about. 

[BabaYaga 15294]

Just now, troph said:

He wants to be immune he wants to control the reaction.

How exactly has a man that has leaned into criticism for his entire career....bathed in it constantly, now trying to control the reaction?  

[troph 24791]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

Daphne's sister summed it up better than anyone:

And my earlier point about societal norms, Chappelle's point is that you "think" that they have changed, but they really haven't.  Hence his leading line:

 

He fails to address black trans women who are Uber fucked in this society and he fails to realize that white gay men don’t have to live in fear that’s very true but with a lot in common DC and I both have to watch our backs.  I have relationships with lots of black men on various non profit boards and volunteer orgs and we have a strange sense of solidarity based out of our brand of daily fear. I don’t get that solidarity listening toDC’s comedy, sorry. 

[DonkeyCigars 143]

I think this is the heart of it: “Gay people are minorities until they need to be white again.”

Because I think the core fear or what makes DC so funny and good is his ability to see ahead and be prescient, I think what he's seeing is that EVEN Trans white people are even going to leapfrog black people in American society sooner than later.

You already kinda see it happening with Caitlyn Jenner who is ridiculed and mocked until she starts politically aligning like a typical rich white person, and then doors of acceptance somewhat open.