Stevie Nicks just sold her catalog: 100 million

[Gil Bang 25,975]

https://www.rollingstone.com/pro/news/stevie-nicks-fleetwood-mac-catalog-primary-wave-1098850/

 

I wonder if other musicians will follow suit:  I'm thinking David Crosby.  It's widely-known that he's broke.  He's written some terrific songs.   They have to be worth something to an investor like this.  

 

 

[Sbbruin 21,861]

Get while the gettin's good.

[tx 3 putt 77,053]

you can't take them to the grave, cash in before your heirs sell them off 

[Bogeywon 2,519]

Good for her. Also lol at Ritchie saying he doesn’t like the label publishing and wants it replaced with “song management”. Not sure why that was funny to me but it was

[Guest Lobo]

For you wise attorneys, and yes I mean that sarcastically, assuming you don't have plans to spend down 9 figures in a few years, what is the tax advantage of selling them now without the step-up in basis versus transferring the rights to your heirs and letting them do it down the road?  Again, assuming that at age 80 you can only burn through a few hundred thousand in hookers and blow?  

[Chewbacca 7,780]

9 minutes ago, Lobo said:

For you wise attorneys, and yes I mean that sarcastically, assuming you don't have plans to spend down 9 figures in a few years, what is the tax advantage of selling them now without the step-up in basis versus transferring the rights to your heirs and letting them do it down the road?  Again, assuming that at age 80 you can only burn through a few hundred thousand in hookers and blow?  

Not a lawyer, but I'm guessing it's a cash flow issue.  She wants to spend some (or most, or all) of it and doesn't have the cash.  Otherwise, you're right that keeping the catalog intact would be better for your heirs.

[Guest Lobo]

Yeah again, I get the cash flow deal.  But she could still sell a part of the catalog for licensing or turn over 10 songs for commercials or whatever.  But the whole thing en masse, with no step up in basis, if you just need a few million to get by...seems curious.  I know there's a reason and I am fascinated with music publishing rights decisions.  It's still such a fucked up landscape after this many decades.  We're going through it right now with an app that is broadcasting previous festival content and it's such an unprecedented proving ground.

[jimmyjazz 45,975]

It's not like there's zero risk.  An economic depression could crush that value.  Maybe she didn't need to sell as much as she did -- I seriously doubt she needs $100M unless she's diving into real estate or something -- but sometimes it's just time.  I think any estate will be happy with the bulk of $100M minus taxes.

[4th&Five 41,558]

 

[Scraps 13,562]

On the main page this says "Stevie Nicks just sold her...."  

I was really hoping it was panties, cause I don't even care at 72 I would still buy them 

[bschoolprof 6,263]

6 minutes ago, 4th&Five said:

 

I wouldn't think twice about $300 mil - it's alright.

But I still don't fully get the cash flow/ complete cash out calculation at this stage in life.  Must be a "the market's never gonna be better than this" mentality.  

 

[Armybrat 40,850]

5 minutes ago, bschoolprof said:

I wouldn't think twice about $300 mil - it's alright.

But I still don't fully get the cash flow/ complete cash out calculation at this stage in life.  Must be a "the market's never gonna be better than this" mentality.  

 

Maybe he wants to invest in his own weed farm?

[Guest Lobo]

1 hour ago, bschoolprof said:

I wouldn't think twice about $300 mil - it's alright.

But I still don't fully get the cash flow/ complete cash out calculation at this stage in life.  Must be a "the market's never gonna be better than this" mentality.  

 

I've wondered the same thing.  One component in the decision must be that maybe there's a difference on liquidity exits for performing arts materials as far as taxes?  It's not like he's selling a business that had $x basis for $y dollars and that $y dollars was simple multiple on earnings or revenue or in this case---royalty streams.  It's not like land or a building though, in ten years---literally nobody may be buying Bob Dylan music rights for their movies or commercials or Hulu series.  Or every single show on Netflix may suddenly have multiple Bob Dylan tracks on each episode.  Obviously any business or even I.P. is hard to predict into the future for basis purposes, but there are proven techniques for it and they get awfully close to a perfect record.  But how do you do that for Stevie Nicks or Bob Dylan?  This kinda thing only happens once or twice a year, but there's so much money involved, I'm sure there's a Treasury/IRS agent that specializes in the tax of this.  Some chain-smoking Charlie Day type who sits in a basement in Fairfax waiting to get the call.  H

I can't remember where I read it, this was about two years ago in business publication that tracks the music world pretty well.  And of course, I can't fucking remember for the life of me.  But the gist was that in about a year, the market was going to start getting flooded with catalog rights being sold because of some decades long law/rule/perpetuity constraint was going to expire and open up this narrow window of a few years where there'd be significant financial advantages.  And it was mainly catalogs from artists from the 50s-80s that have been around long enough to have been bound by this deal originally.  It had a lot to do with streaming services/DSP wanting it to stay gone to make it easier and a more fluid market for buying/selling rights as needed for shows/content/etc.  Anyway, I'll find it because I think it's what's driving some of this.  There was an oil guy out in Odessa that is a classic rock junkie to the point of excess (he hired the Doobie Brothers to play his birthday party last year).  He wanted to get in on some of the publishing transactions and hold them for a bit while this all shakes out (not Bob Dylan level, but smaller bands of the era that still have commercial viability).  Obviously he's glad he didn't because he would have been sitting on $1/bbl oil, but the early works of Foghat and Styx.  

From a tax 'n drugs standpoint, I'd love to be there when LTCG is declared and Stevie Nicks has to show her original cost basis in the songs.

"Receipts for studio time, mixing, mastering, pressing, marketing, distribution, etc.  Okay makes sense.  Travel, lodging, got it.  Okay, Ms. Nicks...what's this large line item down here towards the bottom:  WAC-MC-ROC.  Is that industry jargon, I mean it's $3,000,000?"

"Uh that's Whiskey, Abortions, Cocaine.  More Cocaine.  Rest of the Cocaine."  

Edited December 7, 2020 by Lobo

[Trey3216 15,347]

On 12/4/2020 at 6:08 PM, Lobo said:

For you wise attorneys, and yes I mean that sarcastically, assuming you don't have plans to spend down 9 figures in a few years, what is the tax advantage of selling them now without the step-up in basis versus transferring the rights to your heirs and letting them do it down the road?  Again, assuming that at age 80 you can only burn through a few hundred thousand in hookers and blow?  

With the current estate tax laws, you could theoretically put some life insurance in place to eliminate estate taxes on the proceeds by making the sale now.  That is, of course, if any of them could actually get life insurance at this point due to age and 'medical history'.  Lol.   Better to plan ahead when you know what tax rates are than to get caught in a pickle down the road.  

[Guest Lobo]

Yeah, certainly the predictability of tax rates had a lot to do with the decision particularly since one thing Biden (noCR) has revealed is to re-up LT cap gains to previous levels).  As you said, could be off-set with insurance or an A/B trust, etc.  But yeah, just the image of somebody from Fleetwood Mac or Jimmy Page going through insurance underwriting is funny.  

Of course, there's the opposite where Keith Richards walks in for his 20 year policy and some newly licensed agent says, "Normally, uh...Mr. Richards is it?  Normally, we don't issue 20 year term policies to men of your uh...tenure and maturity.  We could discuss a 10-year policy with a rate for your age and health, but it would be costly."  Senior agent runs in the room, "Sorry Mr. Richards...he's new.  (mumbling to millennial agent....'you dumbfuck...that's THE Keith Richards.  You give him a 30 year term right term right now with no underwriting needed.  At age 60, I saw him chase 6 grams of heroin with a quart of whiskey, and then he snorted a pack of marlboro reds.  He didn't smoke them, he snorted the tobacco.  By the way, we will need to put him down as a smoker though, no getting around that.  The photos are out there."  

anyway, to get back on track...this is not the article I was referencing...but this one is a quick read, though a little too 'inside baseball'...it clears up.  This is extra fascinating to me right now because an DSP music app we're working with is moving up the food-chain in terms of artist cache.  And clearing rights business is so antiquated beyond my wildest dreams.  I heard stories from friends in bands, and you read Sam Cooke biographies, and then you get on calls with these guys...it's still all the same Barry Gordie kinda shit.  And the incestuous, downright fraudulent relationships between Managers, Labels, and Publishers is insane.  And we're only dealing with mid-level bands, can only imagine the grift with folks like Steve Nicks.  

https://static.billboard.com/files/2020/02/insights_billboard-1582901163.pdf

[Upgrayedd 5,814]

Those Fajita Roundup stores aren't going to cashflow themselves I guess.

[Guest Lobo]

Pos rep on a very obscure sketch reference.  Lucy nailed that impression though.  I still laugh thinking about the whipping sound everytime she says the name of her restaurant, which is still #101 on a list of Sedona's best restaurants.  

anecdotal---but I was talking with the keyboardist/vocalist in a very well-known jam band.  They play festivals and cruises with Widespread Panic, Dave Matthews Band, et. al.  They got a song picked up by a Netflix series, and are in talks on another song for a YouTube show.  So kind of exciting for them to get into the royalties business.  But he said with all the new content on TV and movie services/sites...there's a deluge of material now going out from mid-level bands onto these platforms.  And it's diluting their negotiating power because bands of their caliber are flooding the market and taking pennies on the dollar because they think it's gonna be like back in the day when a Volkswagen or Apple commercial on TV used your song and could make or break your next album.  He fears this is gonna lead to a decade of poor financial decisions and exploitation of artists and their content.  So just as bands of his caliber were starting to be in control of masters, and streaming, connecting directly with fans, publishing rights, etc.  Between spotify and shit like this on rights control, they're going back to the stone age again.  There is more integrity in the drug trade.  

Edited December 7, 2020 by Lobo

[Catpfish 618]

Also, (no CR) two of the other things Biden is rumored to be considering besides the capital gain tax increase, is severely limiting estate values (possibly as low as $3.5 million) and doing away with the step-up basis on death.  Have also heard of death becoming a taxable event in that capital gains become immediately taxable (no one would have the cash laying around to cover that bill), no idea of the validity of that or any of the rumors to be honest.

 

If all of that is on the table, it might make the sale at current tax levels a little more financially justifiable.

 

 

[TwiceHorn 31,495]

I might guess that an entire catalog is somewhat easier to value than a few songs.

As to the event Lobo mentions, it was copyright renewal.  Under the 1909 Act, works had an initial 28 year term, with a renewal term of 28 years.  Only the author or heirs could renew and part of the deal there was to give leverage to them to renegotiate any license or assignment predating the renewal.

Under the 1976 Act, those works which remained subject to renewal (had not already passed into the public domain, so 1950-1977) were renewable for 47 years.  Again the author or heirs were/are the only parties that can renew, so they acquire some leverage over assignees or licensees (they can make the copyright go poof if the assignee doesn't pay up).

Now works copyrighted after 1964 do not require any renewal at all.

[Guest Lobo]

so, uh, where are we in that cycle sir?  And does it include Stevie Nicks nudes?  

[Celery Man 20,966]

On 12/4/2020 at 5:49 PM, Gil Bang said:

https://www.rollingstone.com/pro/news/stevie-nicks-fleetwood-mac-catalog-primary-wave-1098850/

 

I wonder if other musicians will follow suit:  I'm thinking David Crosby.  It's widely-known that he's broke.  He's written some terrific songs.   They have to be worth something to an investor like this.  

 

 

 

[Serak The Preparer 3,431]

If you had asked me how much more valuable Dylan's catalog was than Stevie Nicks, I sure as hell would have guessed more than 3x. Not sure if he got screwed or if I am just drastically undervaluing her catalog.

[GhostOfTomJoad 9,331]

Stevie's $100m is because she has an impressive portfolio of pop standards that will continue to be covered by tons of musicians. And her songs are much easier to use in marketing campaigns than Dylan tunes. 

I love Bob and I get why, at 79, this makes sense for him. His touring days may be done for good, and it's not like he's been commercially popular in decades. He's probably content staying home with his acetylene torch, making sculptures & sipping on his Heaven's Door bourbon (pretty damn good stuff).

 

[Gil Bang 25,975]

So what's Crosby's worth?  15 million is my guess.  Maybe 25.

[Bogeywon 2,519]

1 hour ago, Gil Bang said:

So what's Crosby's worth?  15 million is my guess.  Maybe 25.

That’s about right, I’d say 20ish maybe being that the market is high right now 

[Steel Shank 9,428]

All three should donate the money to one of their worthy causes. Walk the walk. {ducks}

[Gil Bang 25,975]

Crosby can't pay his fucking cell phone bill.   He's a broke-ass mofo.

Stevie Nicks will probably just buy another 5000 scarves.  She's got a fucking SCARF ROOM in hour house!

[Gil Bang 25,975]

1 hour ago, Bogeywon said:

That’s about right, I’d say 20ish maybe being that the market is high right now 

In your estimation, what's his most marketable song? 

 

I'm guessing it's "Long Time Gone" with "Almost cut my hair" a close 2nd.

[hullabelew 3,724]

https://ultimateclassicrock.com/rock-stars-selling-publishing-rights/

 

[horn4life 3,762]

Yeah "mailbox money" doesn't roll in from Album sales anymore.  Now you need your song to be used in movies, advertising or television to get those checks to flow.  Think about how many times you have heard "Lust for Life." from Iggy Pop in advertising the last 10 years.  He gets great checks I'm sure from that, and so does David Bowie's estate I assume as co-writer.

Interestingly the wife and I binge watched "Yellowstone" last week, and it was cool to hear music from folks like Hayes Carll and Uncle Luscious, as well as obviously Ryan Bingham (he has a role).  I believe that those guys get a little pop each time an episode airs.  So if it's a successful series or movie that gets repeatedly airs you can get a long term small income stream.

 

[Gourmand 7,774]

https://ultimateclassicrock.com/rock-stars-selling-publishing-rights/
 

Thanks for sharing this.

It's really amazing to read a quote from David Crosby about having a mortgage to pay. Wtf you're David fuckin Crosby why do you have a house payment?!

[Gil Bang 25,975]

23 minutes ago, Gourmand said:

Thanks for sharing this.

It's really amazing to read a quote from David Crosby about having a mortgage to pay. Wtf you're David fuckin Crosby why do you have a house payment?!

drugs and yachts.  

[Guest Lobo]

26 minutes ago, Gil Bang said:

drugs and yachts.  

What the fuck dude?  That was gonna be the band name for our David Crosby cover band.  Now you fucked it up!  

Fine...we'll go with Joints & Dinghies.  

[DougO 5,250]

But Crosby has always been so good with money and life decisions. Gotta give him the benefit of the doubt.

[DougO 5,250]

On 12/7/2020 at 9:35 PM, Gil Bang said:

Crosby can't pay his fucking cell phone bill.   He's a broke-ass mofo.

 

 

Not a huge bill, either. Ain't nobody tryna call his ass.

[Gil Bang 25,975]

6 minutes ago, DougO said:

But Crosby has always been so good with money and life decisions. Gotta give him the benefit of the doubt.

he's such a terrific talent, and such an asshole.

I have no doubt that there would be a SNY reunion tomorrow, but without the C.  

He can't get along with anybody.  He practically begs for a CSNY or Byrds reunion tour, but nobody wants to work with him.  Small wonder.  As recently as this week, he was tweeting "Nash lies a lot".  He's a bigmouth asshole that doesn't know when to swallow his pride and STFU.

[tbone_ 14,128]

Crosby can't pay his fucking cell phone bill.   He's a broke-ass mofo.
Stevie Nicks will probably just buy another 5000 scarves.  She's got a fucking SCARF ROOM in hour house!

As well she fucking should. She’s Stevie Fucking Nicks.

[GhostOfTomJoad 9,331]

he's such a terrific talent, and such an asshole.
I have no doubt that there would be a SNY reunion tomorrow, but without the C.  
He can't get along with anybody.  He practically begs for a CSNY or Byrds reunion tour, but nobody wants to work with him.  Small wonder.  As recently as this week, he was tweeting "Nash lies a lot".  He's a bigmouth asshole that doesn't know when to swallow his pride and STFU.

Yeah, his Remember My Name doc is excellent, required viewing even if you're not a huge fan of his (like me; respect his work but don't own a single DC album). He seems to own up to the fact that he's fucked up & caused pretty much all of the problems he's experienced in life.

To get this somewhat on track, I don't know if his catalog would bring more than $10m or so. He was a co-writer on so many of his biggest, most impactful hits. That drastically reduces the value since his royalty cut is in the 25-30% range. Dylan gets 100% of the songwriting & publishing revenue for his work.

[Gil Bang 25,975]

Just heard a dogshit, butchered version of "Landslide" on a fucking AirBNB commercial. 

I'm glad she got her money, but this shit is a crime against humanity. 

[Gourmand 7,774]

1 hour ago, Gil Bang said:

Just heard a dogshit, butchered version of "Landslide" on a fucking AirBNB commercial. 

I'm glad she got her money, but this shit is a crime against humanity. 

did it for you, daddy

[GhostOfTomJoad 9,331]

Paul Simon's the latest to sell his catalog.

 

Sold it all to Sony for an undisclosed price. It'd be hard to imagine he got less than $100 mil if Dylan got $300 mil+ for his catalog

[Scooter Monzingo 821]

On 4/3/2021 at 12:21 PM, GhostOfTomJoad said:

Paul Simon's the latest to sell his catalog.

 

Sold it all to Sony for an undisclosed price. It'd be hard to imagine he got less than $100 mil if Dylan got $300 mil+ for his catalog

I’m not sure an option, but I would have had to hold on to a couple of songs. Though I know it is a shit ton of money.

[DougO 5,250]

If i were Bill Gates or some shit I would buy it and give it to Garfunkel.

[GhostOfTomJoad 9,331]

http://lm.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fvariety.com%2F2021%2Fmusic%2Fnews%2Fbruce-springsteen-sell-album-catalog-publishing-sony-music-1235103370%2F&h=AT28HK1lZmjvX9PhRGDTo_EkhOnpJSZQ3Pf4dE46sCQZMvaKYmt1Ez9-SS5Kh6Gza5J52EZe9eYXKpmWCDj_dV3GezYCF3Aqmft6dtaVkoC-fzVuHo28PJaEYYA6vH9L9g

Looks like Bruce is next. Someone's gonna write a massive check.

[ztejas 43,474]

1 minute ago, GhostOfTomJoad said:

http://lm.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fvariety.com%2F2021%2Fmusic%2Fnews%2Fbruce-springsteen-sell-album-catalog-publishing-sony-music-1235103370%2F&h=AT28HK1lZmjvX9PhRGDTo_EkhOnpJSZQ3Pf4dE46sCQZMvaKYmt1Ez9-SS5Kh6Gza5J52EZe9eYXKpmWCDj_dV3GezYCF3Aqmft6dtaVkoC-fzVuHo28PJaEYYA6vH9L9g

Looks like Bruce is next. Someone's gonna write a massive check.

 

Half a bil maybe? He isn't the Beatles but Steve Nicks isn't the Boss. Dylan went for an estimated 300M plus. I feel like Springsteen has sold more records than Dylan though. 

[tbone_ 14,128]

I’d love to see the financial model on these purchases.

[GhostOfTomJoad 9,331]

Half a bil maybe? He isn't the Beatles but Steve Nicks isn't the Boss. Dylan went for an estimated 300M plus. I feel like Springsteen has sold more records than Dylan though. 

Variety estimates $300-$400 mil. Because Bruce owns all of the recording and publishing to all of his music it's extremely valuable.

In '84 he reportedly rejected Iacocca when Chrysler wanted to pay $10 million to use Born in the USA for an ad campaign. What does tomorrow bring?

Variety hinted at the huge amount of money it takes in lawyer fees to maintain those publishing rights over years. The guys got 700+ songs in the vault. But maybe 25 of them make money (albeit a lot) every year.

[ztejas 43,474]

2 minutes ago, GhostOfTomJoad said:

But maybe 25 of them make money (albeit a lot) every year.

I think it's more than that. 

[0xdeadbeef 1,651]

2 hours ago, tbone_ said:

I’d love to see the financial model on these purchases.

I wonder the same thing.  Are they planning on recouping $100s of Millions from licensing the songs to commercials and movies?  Is such a thing even possible?

[GhostOfTomJoad 9,331]

I wonder the same thing.  Are they planning on recouping $100s of Millions from licensing the songs to commercials and movies?  Is such a thing even possible?

Per the Variety article, Bruce's songs rake in about $22.5 million a year currently. That's just through airplay and the occasional movie soundtrack. It won't take Sony long to recoup their purchase price. But goddammit the first time I'm on Fire plays during a Peparation H commercial