The Stupidity of the Average American Voter

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19093]

I know we talk about this in other threads, but I really feel like it deserves its own thread.  Ever since this election cycle has begun, the amount of people who I know to be educated individuals who repeatedly parrott back falso information and propoganda is alarming.  People who I have previously known to be rational, intelligent people, have seemingly lost all critical thinking skills.  How the fuck are we supposed to fix this?

 

[Planet Houston 4923]

Nice try, Soros!!!

[Biff Tannen 45495]

11 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

I know we talk about this in other threads, but I really feel like it deserves its own thread.  Ever since this election cycle has begun, the amount of people who I know to be educated individuals who repeatedly parrott back falso information and propoganda is alarming.  People who I have previously known to be rational, intelligent people, have seemingly lost all critical thinking skills.  How the fuck are we supposed to fix this?

 

This is our concern dude.  And I don't have an answer.

[Walden Ponderer 12639]

10 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

I know we talk about this in other threads, but I really feel like it deserves its own thread.  Ever since this election cycle has begun, the amount of people who I know to be educated individuals who repeatedly parrott back falso information and propoganda is alarming.  People who I have previously known to be rational, intelligent people, have seemingly lost all critical thinking skills.  How the fuck are we supposed to fix this?

One of my favorite personal tropes lately is pointing out that Ausonius, the 4th century Roman poet, was unquestionably smarter than most people alive today. He was also wrong about virtually everything, and the more politcal something was, the more wrong he was about it.

Political virology is an interesting study, but if you're living through a time at which it is most relevant, it will just give you ulcers, so it's best to ignore it.

[wildcat09 29256]

We're not fixing it. The only way to fix it would be to inculcate a universal social duty to be an informed and active participant in American democracy. That would take an enormous commitment to improve civic education over multiple generations, together with giving people the actual opportunity to participate in American democracy at all levels.

That means less time spent on work and more time spent on participating in shit like local council meetings. That means less money and less power for the oligarchs. They want us too tired to pay attention to how badly they're fucking us.  And most Americans are. We don't have the time to spend on actual political engagement. Some just tune out politics entirely, while many others think somewhat following the news and voting every 2 or 4 years based on how well things seem to be going is all there is to it.

Capitalism and democracy are in tension in many ways, but the biggest one is in how much of our time they demand of us. Real democracy would require a real investment of time by nearly all Americans. And that's why we won't fix it.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19093]

1 minute ago, Walden Ponderer said:

One of my favorite personal tropes lately is pointing out that Ausonius, the 4th century Roman poet, was unquestionably smarter than most people alive today. He was also wrong about virtually everything, and the more politcal something was, the more wrong he was about it.

Political virology is an interesting study, but if you're living through a time at which it is most relevant, it will just give you ulcers, so it's best to ignore it.

I have started putting people on ignore, but I have genuine concerns.  I don't see a way back.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Capitalism and democracy are in tension in many ways, but the biggest one is in how much of our time they demand of us. Real democracy would require a real investment of time by nearly all Americans. And that's why we won't fix it.

Bingo.  Time...and effort.

Edited December 14, 2020 by slorch

[Sbbruin 21736]

3 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

We're not fixing it. The only way to fix it would be to inculcate a universal social duty to be an informed and active participant in American democracy. That would take an enormous commitment to improve civic education over multiple generations, together with giving people the actual opportunity to participate in American democracy at all levels.

That means less time spent on work and more time spent on participating in shit like local council meetings. That means less money and less power for the oligarchs. They want us too tired to pay attention to how badly they're fucking us.  And most Americans are. We don't have the time to spend on actual political engagement. Some just tune out politics entirely, while many others think somewhat following the news and voting every 2 or 4 years based on how well things seem to be going is all there is to it.

Capitalism and democracy are in tension in many ways, but the biggest one is in how much of our time they demand of us. Real democracy would require a real investment of time by nearly all Americans. And that's why we won't fix it.

And the bigger challenge is how to educate people without influencing or biasing them in the process.  Educators would naturally frame the information as they see it, which would inherently bias the information.  A paradoxical conundrum indeed.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

And the bigger challenge is how to educate people without influencing or biasing them in the process.  Educators would naturally frame the information as they see it, which would inherently bias the information.  A paradoxical conundrum indeed.

Well, we already know which way the NEA leans, and we Know how there Bible Belt wants to try, and educate with religion as part of the curriculum in many places. So unbiased info is a bit hard to come by.

[Sbbruin 21736]

4 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Well, we already know which way the NEA leans, and we Know how there Bible Belt wants to try, and educate with religion as part of the curriculum in many places. So unbiased info is a bit hard to come by.

[Dbeasy 14969]

This thread is definitely needed because it’s one of the biggest problems facing this country. The dissemination of fake information, combined with a gullible public that doesn’t have the time or capability to figure out what’s real or not, could result in disastrous consequences for this country.

But, this thread will ultimately be a failure because there doesn’t seem to be any way to fix the problem.

[Walden Ponderer 12639]

25 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

I have started putting people on ignore, but I have genuine concerns.  I don't see a way back.

Hey, we've got at least a good a shot as the Roman Republic did.

[Cousin Strawberry 1261]

 I have a friend that is retired and under 50. Sold his company for a shitload of cash. Never have to work again and I would guess his kids won't have to either.  He is smart and very personable.  Completely rational person.  He texted the other day wondering if I had seen anything about the CIA director getting killed in a shootout in Germany.  Apparently, she was protecting the dominion servers from US specop forces who were ordered by Trump to seize them. Presumably, the servers would show the fraud and the CIA'a involvement in the steal. 

[Neonmoon 38127]

I know about the Dunning-Kruger Effect, in which people wrongly overestimate their intellect, but is there a phenomenon that explains when a person is intellectually incapable of understanding the information, but won't accept the answers given by someone who does understand the information? 

For example, a scientist has studied a subject for twenty years, has multiple degrees in the subject, but John Q. Idiot comes along, and says XYZ doesn't make sense because of something he read online. The scientist explains to the John Q. Idiot that the article he read doesn't take into account a hundred other variables and studies, and thus the conclusions are incorrect. John Q. Idiot then says yeah but what about this, and the process repeats itself. The scientist waste time trying to convince the idiot of truths they will not accept because they're too ignorant to understand them. 

This is pretty much where society sits right now

[SimonBolivar 10931]

24 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Well, we already know which way the NEA leans, and we Know how there Bible Belt wants to try, and educate with religion as part of the curriculum in many places. So unbiased info is a bit hard to come by.

I'm not going to sit here and let you slander the National Endowment for the Arts.

[BradInATX 9208]

I know about the Dunning-Kruger Effect, in which people wrongly overestimate their intellect, but is there a phenomenon that explains when a person is intellectually incapable of understanding the information, but won't accept the answers given by someone who does understand the information? 
For example, a scientist has studied a subject for twenty years, has multiple degrees in the subject, but John Q. Idiot comes along, and says XYZ doesn't make sense because of something he read online. The scientist explains to the John Q. Idiot that the article he read doesn't take into account a hundred other variables and studies, and thus the conclusions are incorrect. John Q. Idiot then says yeah but what about this, and the process repeats itself. The scientist waste time trying to convince the idiot of truths they will not accept because they're too ignorant to understand them. 
This is pretty much where society sits right now

That's called Daily Texan Syndrome

[956 Worldwide 34443]

43 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

I know we talk about this in other threads, but I really feel like it deserves its own thread.  Ever since this election cycle has begun, the amount of people who I know to be educated individuals who repeatedly parrott back falso information and propoganda is alarming.  People who I have previously known to be rational, intelligent people, have seemingly lost all critical thinking skills.  How the fuck are we supposed to fix this?

 

I don't think there is a solution.  This isn't an American problem, it's a people program.  A lot of people aren't cognitively equipped to discern between lies and truth or see propaganda for what it is.  Another significant subset are capable, but choose not to because it's a lot more comfortable to confirm your biases, and because feeding grievances is a lot like addiction.  Our brains respond to grievance propaganda in much the same way they do to a hit of narcotics.  We have always been this way, and we have also always trusted bullshit from people within our social circle to authoritative information from a far-away voice.  We're all still cavemen who feel safer in our tribe. Media literacy, critical thinking classes, all of that stuff-- it's just chipping away at the edges. 

What we had for a long time was a set of elites in politics, the media, education, and business who had struck an unspoken bargain among themselves not to manipulate our monkey brains for their own benefit.  To keep political-ideological combat within a set of unclearly defined boundaries.  And to eventually punish people (McCarthy) who colored too far out of the lines. Over the past half-century or so, a lot of people have backed out of their end of the bargain.  And believe it or not, politics was one of the last dominoes to fall. 

I can also add here that our dual-party system is uniquely susceptible because it's pretty much an all or nothing game, so if one dishonest actor manages to break the rules, grab the controls, and crank out the juche--- all the others have to either get on board or abandon any political ambitions. They really can't switch to a different team or form their own new group.  On the flip side, the dual party system also means a lot more checks and obstructionism as long as a principled opposition can keep a few levers of power.  

This isn't an argument in favor of abandoning democratic government for some sort of technocratic tyranny.  Tyranny is tyranny, and it's almost always worse when its implemented for the "good" of the governed.  The only way to stave off what is coming is for the elites in our society to come back to the table, redraw the boundaries, and reject members of their tribe who cross them. 

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

You think Politicians want and educated electorate? How quaint. 

[TwiceHorn 31280]

8 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I don't think there is a solution.  This isn't an American problem, it's a people program.  A lot of people aren't cognitively equipped to discern between lies and truth or see propaganda for what it is.  Another significant subset are capable, but choose not to because it's a lot more comfortable to confirm your biases, and because feeding grievances is a lot like addiction.  Our brains respond to grievance propaganda in much the same way they do to a hit of narcotics.  We have always been this way, and we have also always trusted bullshit from people within our social circle to authoritative information from a far-away voice.  We're all still cavemen who feel safer in our tribe. Media literacy, critical thinking classes, all of that stuff-- it's just chipping away at the edges. 

What we had for a long time was a set of elites in politics, the media, education, and business who had struck an unspoken bargain among themselves not to manipulate our monkey brains for their own benefit.  To keep political-ideological combat within a set of unclearly defined boundaries.  And to eventually punish people (McCarthy) who colored too far out of the lines. Over the past half-century or so, a lot of people have backed out of their end of the bargain.  And believe it or not, politics was one of the last dominoes to fall. 

I can also add here that our dual-party system is uniquely susceptible because it's pretty much an all or nothing game, so if one dishonest actor manages to break the rules, grab the controls, and crank out the juche--- all the others have to either get on board or abandon any political ambitions. They really can't switch to a different team or form their own new group.  On the flip side, the dual party system also means a lot more checks and obstructionism as long as a principled opposition can keep a few levers of power.  

This isn't an argument in favor of abandoning democratic government for some sort of technocratic tyranny.  Tyranny is tyranny, and it's almost always worse when its implemented for the "good" of the governed.  The only way to stave off what is coming is for the elites in our society to come back to the table, redraw the boundaries, and reject members of their tribe who cross them. 

I think another factor driving the unspoken bargain was the expansion of suffrage and a greater understanding of how to manipulate monkey brains.  It may not have been a bargain so much as the electorate posed less of a problem and the only people capable of exploiting aspects of it were naturally gifted con men.  They couldn't just call up a political consultant and employ a bunch of psyops types.

[Pato del Muerto 52342]

I know a guy, big trumper. Aside from all the election fraud stuff, he’s been posting a lot of stuff from 2a sites about how Biden is going to take our guns away, or tax them heavily, by executive order. 
he also posts memes about how Joe Biden was in the senate for 40 years and accomplished nothing so why would we give him 4 more. 
he also posts about how the dems are going to 25th him or outright “Clinton” him to install Harris. 
 

so apparently he believes, simultaneously and without a bit of irony or self introspection, that Biden didn’t really win, will turn the country communist and ban guns by being effective at making policy, while also believing that he is an ineffectual leader who isn’t communist enough for the dem party and therefore will be removed in favor of Harris (who he calls camel, no racism there).

ps covid is a real but minor virus and the fake pandemic was manufactured by dems and media to allow for the election law changes that allowed the dems to cheat and win. It’s all one conspiracy. 
 

he had a vote in Nevada. 

[BrickHorn 18194]

1 hour ago, wildcat09 said:

The only way to fix it would be to inculcate a universal social duty to be an informed and active participant in American democracy.

In other words, you can’t vote unless you DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH, PATRIOTS!

[aggie08 21434]

What we should do is implement fact-checking of information shared on social media to gently alert the user that what they're reading was potentially written in bad faith with purposely misleading untruths.

There is absolutely no way that it will completely backfire, give credence to the conspiracy theories revolving around "conservative" voices being censored, make people think that the liberal media is "hiding something" and, in turn, actually give credibility to the disinformation.  Nope, it will go perfectly.  People will thank the fact-checkers for their hard work and dedication!

[BradInATX 9208]

You think Politicians want and educated electorate? How quaint. 

Progressives are actively trying to guarantee access to higher education to everyone. The types that you vote for fight it tooth and nail at every turn.

But you already knew that.

bOth SIdeS

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19093]

4 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

What we should do is implement fact-checking of information shared on social media to gently alert the user that what they're reading was potentially written in bad faith with purposely misleading untruths.

There is absolutely no way that it will completely backfire, give credence to the conspiracy theories revolving around "conservative" voices being censored, make people think that the liberal media is "hiding something" and, in turn, actually give credibility to the disinformation.  Nope, it will go perfectly.  People will thank the fact-checkers for their hard work and dedication!

Honestly, Social Media isn't even the worst.  How about the bullshit on major networks that are opinion shows couched as hard hitting news (Fox News).  It is just complete bullshit.

And honestly, even some of the most respected newspapers (i.e. New York Times and Washington Post) are guildy of editorializing news with some of the headlines that they use.

 

[Mole 4320]

59 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Well, we already know which way the NEA leans, and we Know how there Bible Belt wants to try, and educate with religion as part of the curriculum in many places. So unbiased info is a bit hard to come by.

I’m not sure that biased info is necessarily quite the problem. The problem is more in learning how to deal with bias. The answer isn’t the triangulation/syncretism that has become so popular (the truth doesn’t have to be in the middle). 
 

If you’re talking about education, history, for example, is on some level a study of the bias of each author. This can be rejected for “Patriotic Education”,accepted as some kind of historical solipsism, or it can serve to provide a rich and nuanced understanding of history. The same goes for any other subject. 
 

Beyond the surface level in any field or subject, bias is inevitable, but we’ve collectively done a terrible job of handling and understanding that bias. Of course, like winning, it’s actually really, really hard.

[956 Worldwide 34443]

8 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

Progressives are actively trying to guarantee access to higher education to everyone. The types that you vote for fight it tooth and nail at every turn.

But you already knew that.

bOth SIdeS

CoLlEgE iS fOr LiBs 234! 

[956 Worldwide 34443]

2 minutes ago, Mole said:

I’m not sure that biased info is necessarily quite the problem. The problem is more in learning how to deal with bias. The answer isn’t the triangulation/syncretism that has become so popular (the truth doesn’t have to be in the middle). 
 

If you’re talking about education, history, for example, is on some level a study of the bias of each author. This can be rejected for “Patriotic Education”,accepted as some kind of historical solipsism, or it can serve to provide a rich and nuanced understanding of history. The same goes for any other subject. 
 

Beyond the surface level in any field or subject, bias is inevitable, but we’ve collectively done a terrible job of handling and understanding that bias. Of course, like winning, it’s actually really, really hard.

I read a great article a while back by a founder of the Washington Examiner in which he explained why he moved on from conservative media.  He explained that mainstream reporters saw their jobs as reporting the news, investigating issues, and presenting findings to the public and that often the finished product was clouded by their left-leaning biases.

His conservative colleagues didn’t see their job as the same thing, but with conservative bias.  They thought that a conservative outlet’s job is to report the GOP/culture warrior’s take on the news. 

[MoJames 8241]

58 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

I know about the Dunning-Kruger Effect, in which people wrongly overestimate their intellect, but is there a phenomenon that explains when a person is intellectually incapable of understanding the information, but won't accept the answers given by someone who does understand the information? 

For example, a scientist has studied a subject for twenty years, has multiple degrees in the subject, but John Q. Idiot comes along, and says XYZ doesn't make sense because of something he read online. The scientist explains to the John Q. Idiot that the article he read doesn't take into account a hundred other variables and studies, and thus the conclusions are incorrect. John Q. Idiot then says yeah but what about this, and the process repeats itself. The scientist waste time trying to convince the idiot of truths they will not accept because they're too ignorant to understand them. 

This is pretty much where society sits right now

The Dunning-Kruger Effect is a fun one to deal with working in medicine. You quickly realize how the vast majority of the population believes they are much smarter than those around them. Makes a fun balancing act of treating the patient appropriately and keeping them happy at the same time (Yay Press Ganey).

With politics as well as medicine there are also self proclaimed experts on any number of topics with a platform like social media to slam their points home over and over. Watching my patient die last year because of a Homeopathic Oncologist drive their care because it was more natural was infuriating. It is very consistent with what I see some of my friends and family do watching specific news channels and taking everything as fact. I don't see a way out either.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

15 minutes ago, Mole said:

I’m not sure that biased info is necessarily quite the problem. The problem is more in learning how to deal with bias. The answer isn’t the triangulation/syncretism that has become so popular (the truth doesn’t have to be in the middle). 
 

If you’re talking about education, history, for example, is on some level a study of the bias of each author. This can be rejected for “Patriotic Education”,accepted as some kind of historical solipsism, or it can serve to provide a rich and nuanced understanding of history. The same goes for any other subject. 
 

Beyond the surface level in any field or subject, bias is inevitable, but we’ve collectively done a terrible job of handling and understanding that bias. Of course, like winning, it’s actually really, really hard.

History was the first thing I thought of as always biased in favor of those who win. There are definitely biases built into that.  And my comment about religion wasn't meant to be taken as I'm anti religion, but in public schools, religion should simply be taught as survey courses, and not taught as doctrine.

[washparkhorn 9935]

45 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

I know about the Dunning-Kruger Effect, in which people wrongly overestimate their intellect, but is there a phenomenon that explains when a person is intellectually incapable of understanding the information, but won't accept the answers given by someone who does understand the information? 

For example, a scientist has studied a subject for twenty years, has multiple degrees in the subject, but John Q. Idiot comes along, and says XYZ doesn't make sense because of something he read online. The scientist explains to the John Q. Idiot that the article he read doesn't take into account a hundred other variables and studies, and thus the conclusions are incorrect. John Q. Idiot then says yeah but what about this, and the process repeats itself. The scientist waste time trying to convince the idiot of truths they will not accept because they're too ignorant to understand them. 

This is pretty much where society sits right now

Well said.

 

The availability heuristic?

availability heuristic - "A cognitive heuristic through which the frequency or probability of an event is judged by the number of instances of it that can readily be brought to mind. It can generate biased or incorrect judgements, as when people are asked whether the English language contains more words beginning with the letter k or more words with k as the third letter, most people finding it easier to think of instances of words beginning with k and therefore concluding that there are more words beginning with k, whereas in fact a typical long text contains twice as many words with k as the third letter. The heuristic was first identified in 1973 by the Israeli psychologists Amos Tversky (1937–96) and Daniel Kahneman (born 1934)."  https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095436724 

[Neonmoon 38127]

5 minutes ago, MoJames said:

The Dunning-Kruger Effect is a fun one to deal with working in medicine. You quickly realize how the vast majority of the population believes they are much smarter than those around them. Makes a fun balancing act of treating the patient appropriately and keeping them happy at the same time (Yay Press Ganey).

With politics as well as medicine there are also self proclaimed experts on any number of topics with a platform like social media to slam their points home over and over. Watching my patient die last year because of a Homeopathic Oncologist drive their care because it was more natural was infuriating. It is very consistent with what I see some of my friends and family do watching specific news channels and taking everything as fact. I don't see a way out either.

This is my concern dude. There is no solution to this problem. Average idiot confronts experts with a snippet of facts and the do not believe said expert, and more so don’t understand said expert when expert explains why they are wrong. 
 

I guess more education is the only thing I can think of. More emphasis on a culture of humility?

[babysdaddy 2718]

7 minutes ago, MoJames said:

The Dunning-Kruger Effect is a fun one to deal with working in medicine. You quickly realize how the vast majority of the population believes they are much smarter than those around them. Makes a fun balancing act of treating the patient appropriately and keeping them happy at the same time (Yay Press Ganey).

With politics as well as medicine there are also self proclaimed experts on any number of topics with a platform like social media to slam their points home over and over. Watching my patient die last year because of a Homeopathic Oncologist drive their care because it was more natural was infuriating. It is very consistent with what I see some of my friends and family do watching specific news channels and taking everything as fact. I don't see a way out either.

Respectfully, doctors tend to be the worst at exhibiting DK behaviors.  Given their educational history, they tend to vastly overestimate their intelligence in other matters outside what they studied.  

[wildcat09 29256]

1 minute ago, Neonmoon said:

This is my concern dude. There is no solution to this problem. Average idiot confronts experts with a snippet of facts and the do not believe said expert, and more so don’t understand said expert when expert explains why they are wrong. 
 

I guess more education is the only thing I can think of. More emphasis on a culture of humility?

There might be another country where this would be even harder than in America, but I'll be damned if I can think of it.

[aggie08 21434]

44 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Honestly, Social Media isn't even the worst.  How about the bullshit on major networks that are opinion shows couched as hard hitting news (Fox News).  It is just complete bullshit.

I made this "joke" in the Parler thread, but we're going to be yearning for the days where that audience all congregated on Fox News. Fox News is a nice, warm blanket. "Christian values good; liberal socialists bad. Clinton's in on conspiracy, question mark, smiley face. Keep your money and guns, return to the America of yore." Comforting. I know plenty off well-educated, rational people who just prefer Fox's lean as the only mainstream conservative outlet. I get that, even if it does slowly distort their world view. Sure, Fox can infer and deflect, manipulate and omit...but outright, blatant lies still get them sued. Other, more extreme, sources who aren't limited by being a "news publisher" can and do tell you that 2+2=potato for clicks and views. How do you bring back someone who hears the aforementioned CIA/US Spec-Op shootout over election servers in Germany and thinks, "Seems plausible."?

Edited December 14, 2020 by aggie08

[Neonmoon 38127]

3 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Well said.

 

The availability heuristic?

availability heuristic - "A cognitive heuristic through which the frequency or probability of an event is judged by the number of instances of it that can readily be brought to mind. It can generate biased or incorrect judgements, as when people are asked whether the English language contains more words beginning with the letter k or more words with k as the third letter, most people finding it easier to think of instances of words beginning with k and therefore concluding that there are more words beginning with k, whereas in fact a typical long text contains twice as many words with k as the third letter. The heuristic was first identified in 1973 by the Israeli psychologists Amos Tversky (1937–96) and Daniel Kahneman (born 1934)."  https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095436724 

This is great. I would modify it to include not just easy to find but ‘“easy to understand”

[MoJames 8241]

3 minutes ago, babysdaddy said:

Respectfully, doctors tend to be the worst at exhibiting DK behaviors.  Given their educational history, they tend to vastly overestimate their intelligence in other matters outside what they studied.  

Fair. There are plenty of providers who wander outside of their studies and exhibit DK behaviors. However, in today's environment this is dwarfed by the amount of nonsense that is presented to us by patients, imo. Not to get to far off topic, but I've had the microchip discussion probably a dozen times over the past 2 weeks in regards to the COVID vaccination.

[Blotto 23434]

1 hour ago, wildcat09 said:

Real democracy would require a real investment of time by nearly all Americans.

I'm willing to give it a shot as long it doesnt interfere with my ability to make tiktok videos. That's my passion and I'm usually tied up with that between 1-6 pm.

[956 Worldwide 34443]

1 minute ago, aggie08 said:

I made this "joke" in the Parler thread, but we're going to be yearning for the days where that audience all congregated on Fox News. Fox News is a nice, warm blanket. "Christian values good; liberal socialists bad. Clinton's in on conspiracy, question mark, smiley face. Keep your money, return to the America of yore." Comforting. I know plenty off well-educated, rational people who just prefer Fox's lean as the only mainstream conservative outlet. I get that, even if it does slowly distort their world view. Sure, Fox can infer and deflect, manipulate and omit...but outright, blatant lies still get them sued. Other, more extreme, sources who aren't limited by being a "news publisher" can and do tell you that 2+2=potato for clicks and views. How do you bring back someone who hears the aforementioned CIA/Spec-op shootout of election servers in Germany and thinks, "Seems plausible."?

Facebook is uniquely toxic in how it’s set up.  Even the way they describe your contacts plays a role— friends.  Not many of us are friends in real life with people who lie to us and fill our heads with bullshit.  As cavemen, we are biased to give greater credence to something we hear from a friend as opposed to some faraway expert talking like an egg head.

Sounds simplistic but this shit is very real, especially for people who spent their formative years in an environment where they basically did not have to filter any information at all.  Rumors and stuff still spread, but the gatekeepers kept a pretty firm grip on meta- narratives. Believing the moon-landing was fake is a very different level of conspiracism than “a global elite is in control of literally everything and only a few people are fighting against it.”

[956 Worldwide 34443]

2 minutes ago, MoJames said:

Fair. There are plenty of providers who wander outside of their studies and exhibit DK behaviors. However, in today's environment this is dwarfed by the amount of nonsense that is presented to us by patients, imo. Not to get to far off topic, but I've had the microchip discussion probably a dozen times over the past 2 weeks in regards to the COVID vaccination.

What do you think Bill Gates did on his first day in control of Margaret Keenan, 90, from Coventry? 

[aggie08 21434]

2 minutes ago, MoJames said:

Fair. There are plenty of providers who wander outside of their studies and exhibit DK behaviors. However, in today's environment this is dwarfed by the amount of nonsense that is presented to us by patients, imo. Not to get to far off topic, but I've had the microchip discussion probably a dozen times over the past 2 weeks in regards to the COVID vaccination.

Hopefully, you were able to lie convincingly enough to get them on board with being chipped? Gonna need at least 80% inoculation for the mind-control to work on the population.

[MoJames 8241]

1 minute ago, aggie08 said:

Hopefully, you were able to lie convincingly enough to get them on board with being chipped? Gonna need at least 80% inoculation for the mind-control to work on the population.

I just stared at their apple watch for 30 seconds without saying a word. 

[Satchel 6908]

I bet there are millions of Americans who agree with Tommy Tuberville about the three branches of government.

[babysdaddy 2718]

7 minutes ago, MoJames said:

Fair. There are plenty of providers who wander outside of their studies and exhibit DK behaviors. However, in today's environment this is dwarfed by the amount of nonsense that is presented to us by patients, imo. Not to get to far off topic, but I've had the microchip discussion probably a dozen times over the past 2 weeks in regards to the COVID vaccination.

You're doing the Lord's work.  

[RPM 26228]

Most "conservative" voters I know never bothered to vote until Obama. Can't be having a blek President. Then they lost and were really riled up. Trump was their flag hugging messiah.

[cactusflinthead 27594]

Yeah...about that education of voters?  Probably not going to take hold.

[Biff Tannen 45495]

18 minutes ago, MoJames said:

Fair. There are plenty of providers who wander outside of their studies and exhibit DK behaviors. However, in today's environment this is dwarfed by the amount of nonsense that is presented to us by patients, imo. Not to get to far off topic, but I've had the microchip discussion probably a dozen times over the past 2 weeks in regards to the COVID vaccination.

Are you in Missouri?  My wife has had the vaccine conversation a dozen times in Hays County, but don't think she's had the microchip conversation yet.  Surprisingly.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

1 hour ago, Cousin Strawberry said:

 I have a friend that is retired and under 50. Sold his company for a shitload of cash. Never have to work again and I would guess his kids won't have to either.  He is smart and very personable.  Completely rational person.  He texted the other day wondering if I had seen anything about the CIA director getting killed in a shootout in Germany.  Apparently, she was protecting the dominion servers from US specop forces who were ordered by Trump to seize them. Presumably, the servers would show the fraud and the CIA'a involvement in the steal. 

Can you prove that didn't happen? Didn't thing so, comrade.

People eventually revert to the opinion of the crowd (internet or IRL) around them. Even if you think the crowd around you is slightly off your base views, you still must have some faith they are not far off from the truth. Otherwise why would you waste time with them unless you're a troll or psycho.  I had a very reasonable friend want to argue that there were more Wisconsin votes than voters because he follows a conservative message board. When I pointed him to news reports and state pages that contradicted that rumor, he shut up about it.

[MoJames 8241]

Colorado of all places. I'm was expecting a couple conversations, but not to this degree.

The most distressing conversation I have had was with a lady about 2 months ago. She came in to see me about something relatively benign and somehow we got on the vaccine discussion. She was a self proclaimed democratic blogger that had just moved to Colorado from Florida and was appalled at the amount of people wearing masks at the stores. She went on to state she would not be getting the vaccine (60yo smoker). I asked why and she stated it was because of the ingredients. I asked what does the not yet released vaccination have in it that will prevent you from getting it. She stated it was the feces. My face must have budged from my non judging approach and she went on to tell me that all vaccines have shit in them.

I ended the visit soon after.

[Biff Tannen 45495]

3 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

When I pointed him to news reports and state pages that contradicted that rumor, he shut up about it.

And then probably went right back to his board and re-confirmed his beliefs.  That's one of the huge problems.  Even if you think you have someone convinced what they believe is not the truth, they immediately reset right after.  This is where social media fucks us because people are addicted to those echo chambers.

[Walden Ponderer 12639]

I've thought about this a lot. It may be because we're related, but it doesn't change the fact that it is, in fact, my own opinion, formulated after genuinely thinking it over for far too many sleepless nights. The last several presidents who actually gave a shit what happens to most average people?

Carter. Johnson. FDR. Lincoln. Washington.

 

 

That's my complete list. I've read too much history to be convinced otherwise. We've been ruled by people who just don't give a shit for most of our existence.