The Stupidity of the Average American Voter

[Satchel 6908]

While some of the behavior exhibited by Trumpists is attributable to mental/emotional dysfunction, much of the fidelity to the cause is rooted in the comfort they get from belief in Trump as the last great white hope. When they discover the majority of American kindergartners are no longer white, they reflexively look for a leader who is as upset about that as they are.

[HillaryFan420 121]

2 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

I must have missed where liberals full on joined a cult that abandoned reality altogether.

I don't think this is true of the majority of their voters.  I'm sure many of them feel the election was unfair and voter fraud occurred, but that doesn't make one a cult member.  From my experience, most of them are fairly normal people who identify as Republican and thus are willing to believe many things that aren't necessarily true.  I won't say things are equally bad for Democrats, but you'd have to be a total rube to fail to concede that a similar phenomenon is at play on the other side.  Look at all the hysteria from Democrats regarding the "end of the Republic" and comparing Trump to Hitler when in reality his administration was similar to GWB's but with a more benign foreign policy.

[HillaryFan420 121]

13 minutes ago, Satchel said:

While some of the behavior exhibited by Trumpists is attributable to mental/emotional dysfunction, much of the fidelity to the cause is rooted in the comfort they get from belief in Trump as the last great white hope. When they discover the majority of American kindergartners are no longer white, they reflexively look for a leader who is as upset about that as they are.

This just makes no sense.  Trump in 2020 did better with minorities than any GOP candidate in 60 years.  Did those voters also consider him to be the great white hope?

[Biff Tannen 45495]

4 minutes ago, HillaryFan420 said:

I don't think this is true of the majority of their voters.  I'm sure many of them feel the election was unfair and voter fraud occurred, but that doesn't make one a cult member.  From my experience, most of them are fairly normal people who identify as Republican and thus are willing to believe many things that aren't necessarily true.  I won't say things are equally bad for Democrats, but you'd have to be a total rube to fail to concede that a similar phenomenon is at play on the other side.  Look at all the hysteria from Democrats regarding the "end of the Republic" and comparing Trump to Hitler when in reality his administration was similar to GWB's but with a more benign foreign policy.

JFC, whose sock is this?

[staboner 4959]

2 minutes ago, HillaryFan420 said:

This just makes no sense.  Trump in 2020 did better with minorities than any GOP candidate in 60 years.  Did those voters also consider him to be the great white hope?

its obviously lots of things. can be white for the whites. also loss of worldview (Christianity), loss of the American dream, while for some - like your sample here - the ability to gang up on someone that isn't them. 

humans are just fucking difficult animals

[staboner 4959]

6 minutes ago, HillaryFan420 said:

I don't think this is true of the majority of their voters.  I'm sure many of them feel the election was unfair and voter fraud occurred, but that doesn't make one a cult member.  From my experience, most of them are fairly normal people who identify as Republican and thus are willing to believe many things that aren't necessarily true.  I won't say things are equally bad for Democrats, but you'd have to be a total rube to fail to concede that a similar phenomenon is at play on the other side.  Look at all the hysteria from Democrats regarding the "end of the Republic" and comparing Trump to Hitler when in reality his administration was similar to GWB's but with a more benign foreign policy.

this is a terrible take. not even close bud. go home, take a good nap, and try again soon. 

[washparkhorn 9935]

2 minutes ago, HillaryFan420 said:

Look at all the hysteria from Democrats regarding the "end of the Republic" and comparing Trump to Hitler when in reality his administration was similar to GWB's but with a more benign foreign policy.

Which reality is that? 

[Neonmoon 38127]

33 minutes ago, HillaryFan420 said:

comparing Trump to Hitler when in reality his administration was similar to GWB's but with a more benign foreign policy

[SydneyCarton 47884]

28 minutes ago, HillaryFan420 said:

I don't think this is true of the majority of their voters.  I'm sure many of them feel the election was unfair and voter fraud occurred, but that doesn't make one a cult member.  From my experience, most of them are fairly normal people who identify as Republican and thus are willing to believe many things that aren't necessarily true.  I won't say things are equally bad for Democrats, but you'd have to be a total rube to fail to concede that a similar phenomenon is at play on the other side.  Look at all the hysteria from Democrats regarding the "end of the Republic" and comparing Trump to Hitler when in reality his administration was similar to GWB's but with a more benign foreign policy.

Remind me of the times GWB spewed racist shit from his pulpit, encouraged white nationalism, spouted conspiracy theories, lied to Americans more than 20k times about literally stupid shit that didn’t even serve a purpose, had multiple members of his inner circle indicted for theft and/or obstruction of justice, refused to divest from his financial interests therefore making him open to foreign manipulation, called our soldiers losers and suckers, used his office to force other nations to dig up dirt on his political opponents, refused to a peaceful transfer of power after his terms were up and generally just normalized hate. Oh, and speaking of a more benign foreign policy, let’s talk about putting kids in cages and separating families as a deterrent for immigration as a national policy. Yeah, basically the same, amirite? And by basically the same I mean go fuck yourself. Go fuck yourself with a tree axe and then i hope you get fucked by pack of rabid proud boys. 
 

 

[Hookah Horns 3081]

On 12/14/2020 at 11:16 AM, Dbeasy said:

This thread is definitely needed because it’s one of the biggest problems facing this country. The dissemination of fake information, combined with a gullible public that doesn’t have the time or capability to figure out what’s real or not, could result in disastrous consequences for this country.

But, this thread will ultimately be a failure because there doesn’t seem to be any way to fix the problem.

Time and capabilities to figure out what's real could conceivably be increased. But the bigger problem, maybe the biggest problem we face, is that so many people simply don't care about what's true and real. They crave any information, regardless of its veracity, that fits their preferred narrative and demonizes people they hate. And they reject out of hand any information that doesn't. 

That is why we are doomed. Well, at least one of the reasons. 

[Hookah Horns 3081]

48 minutes ago, HillaryFan420 said:

I don't think this is true of the majority of their voters.  I'm sure many of them feel the election was unfair and voter fraud occurred, but that doesn't make one a cult member.  From my experience, most of them are fairly normal people who identify as Republican and thus are willing to believe many things that aren't necessarily true.  I won't say things are equally bad for Democrats, but you'd have to be a total rube to fail to concede that a similar phenomenon is at play on the other side.  Look at all the hysteria from Democrats regarding the "end of the Republic" and comparing Trump to Hitler when in reality his administration was similar to GWB's but with a more benign foreign policy.

Please list some of the false beliefs about Trump this "hysteria" cultivated. The republic may yet survive him, but are you going to deny that he severely damaged many of its pillars? 

[Hookah Horns 3081]

Also I guess I maybe just didn't realize how benign alienating our allies and cozying up to despots is. 

[Ojo Rojo 1905]

It's not stupidity in the sense of low I.Q.  This phenomena is something else.  I obviously don't actually know and I am still baffled that anyone could buy into such nonsense and that we are where we are, but I'll give my theory anyway:

1. The rise of infotainment.  Some people do believe what they read and hear without questioning it.  Some people believe it because it's what they want to hear and makes them feel good.  Those two things have always been true, but the availability of information, be it legitimate news from traditional news sources, on one end, or straight made up bullshit on social media on the other end, is just worlds beyond what it has ever been.  So, basically, the internet and then people's appetites for consumption of infotainment has just grown.

2. Politicians fueling the fire. They see people buying into the narrative of the infotainment business and they get on the bandwagon.  The politicians tell people they are getting fucked by others all the time, tell people that they have the solutions for them, they are looking out for their interests, etc.  Tends to get people angry and looking for someone to blame and also leads to hero worship of those who are paying lip service to them, telling them what they want to hear. What's been amazing here is how quickly the fascists/Trumpers/neocons turn on anyone who utters a word against their ethos - Barr, McConnell - their former heroes.

3. Income inequality and wealth disparity.  It appears to me that the income and wealth gap in the U.S. is growing.  That puts stress on  society. People get angry because they don't have enough money and they look across town at rich fat cats who have what they want.  The rich and powerful, those more in control of the country, have an incentive to keep the displeasure of the poor in check because if it gets too severe that leads to civil unrest, or worse.  For whatever reason, maybe just the rich and powerful trying to test the limits to see what they can get away with, they are not relieving the pressure by enacting policies that would raise wages and create more wealth in the lower and middle classes.

[HillaryFan420 121]

27 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Remind me of the times GWB spewed racist shit from his pulpit, encouraged white nationalism, spouted conspiracy theories, lied to Americans more than 20k times about literally stupid shit that didn’t even serve a purpose, had multiple members of his inner circle indicted for theft and/or obstruction of justice, refused to divest from his financial interests therefore making him open to foreign manipulation, called our soldiers losers and suckers, used his office to force other nations to dig up dirt on his political opponents, refused to a peaceful transfer of power after his terms were up and generally just normalized hate. Oh, and speaking of a more benign foreign policy, let’s talk about putting kids in cages and separating families as a deterrent for immigration as a national policy. Yeah, basically the same, amirite? And by basically the same I mean go fuck yourself. Go fuck yourself with a tree axe and then i hope you get fucked by pack of rabid proud boys. 
 

 

LMAO, you want to talk about lies?  GWB killed nearly a million people over a war started under flagrantly false pretenses, that in itself is more vile than the totality of the harm caused by Trump's administration.  Also, unlike Trump, he actually really did do a "soft coup" and flat out stole an election.  He wasn't as boorish as Trump though, so that's something.

[HillaryFan420 121]

21 minutes ago, Hookah Horns said:

Please list some of the false beliefs about Trump this "hysteria" cultivated. The republic may yet survive him, but are you going to deny that he severely damaged many of its pillars? 

I would say the claims that he is a "fascist" and the comparisons to Mussolini and other dictators was a bit over the top, no?  Not withstanding that the term "fascist" has lost all meaning, I don't think Hitler or Mussolini illicitly gained power through the filing of lawsuits.  

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

19 minutes ago, Ojo Rojo said:

It's not stupidity in the sense of low I.Q.  This phenomena is something else.  I obviously don't actually know and I am still baffled that anyone could buy into such nonsense and that we are where we are, but I'll give my theory anyway:

1. The rise of infotainment.  Some people do believe what they read and hear without questioning it.  Some people believe it because it's what they want to hear and makes them feel good.  Those two things have always been true, but the availability of information, be it legitimate news from traditional news sources, on one end, or straight made up bullshit on social media on the other end, is just worlds beyond what it has ever been.  So, basically, the internet and then people's appetites for consumption of infotainment has just grown.

This is big, certainly. Cable increased the availability of info and then as cable spread across the nation, the audiences willing to try different channels and types of shows increased. The rather staid news bit from CBS, NBC, and ABC was challenged. Viewers started to expect more. More bells, more whistles. Side by side in the grocery store it was pretty easy to discern the traditional news from the National Enquirer, or other out there publications. On television that line got blurred a lot. The internet I completely agree has been the wild wild west with respect to what's available. Ignoring outright disinfo from overseas, local pseudojournalists looking to make a buck, doctor videos, edit videos, put journo in their byline and off they go.

One thing you don't see is the national leadership speaking as one at how dangerous and harmful this is to our country. You want to talk about nationalism? A national talk about open and honest transparent facts would be a game changer. But no, the top of our society would find this even more dangerous and harmful because it would reveal just how dishonest and egregious they've been with Americans and how welcoming they've been to lies, deception, corruption, and foreign interference. When people talk about nationalism, they sometimes mean a propaganda that is not inclusive of all Americans or not discussing the complexity and dark events of the American myths and legends. Or they mean a form of isolationism, which is increasingly problematic in a world made smaller by technology. A nationalism that is focused upon an informed and educated citizenry leads to better outcomes for the majority of the population.

[JimmyJames 12271]

2 hours ago, Satchel said:

While some of the behavior exhibited by Trumpists is attributable to mental/emotional dysfunction, much of the fidelity to the cause is rooted in the comfort they get from belief in Trump as the last great white hope. When they discover the majority of American kindergartners are no longer white, they reflexively look for a leader who is as upset about that as they are.

Yeah this. 

[Hookah Horns 3081]

34 minutes ago, HillaryFan420 said:

I would say the claims that he is a "fascist" and the comparisons to Mussolini and other dictators was a bit over the top, no?  Not withstanding that the term "fascist" has lost all meaning, I don't think Hitler or Mussolini illicitly gained power through the filing of lawsuits.  

The fact that in the end, 250 years of American democratic tradition, law, and its non-Trumpist citizens actually withstood Trump doesn't mean the comparisons to Hitler and Mussolini were completely invalid. Don't confuse the results with what Trumpism and Trump desire and represent. 

[Brisketexan 104624]

13 minutes ago, Hookah Horns said:

The fact that in the end, 250 years of American democratic tradition, law, and its non-Trumpist citizens actually withstood Trump doesn't mean the comparisons to Hitler and Mussolini were completely invalid. Don't confuse the results with what Trumpism and Trump desire and represent. 

I fail to understand the need to excuse a man who trued to blow our head off.....and missed.  Fucker still tried to murder me, so fuck him.  The fact that I'm left alive after just means that I'm still around and pissed off and can do something about it.

And we fucking better.  Because the next fucker might not miss.

[HillaryFan420 121]

24 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I fail to understand the need to excuse a man who trued to blow our head off.....and missed.  Fucker still tried to murder me, so fuck him.  The fact that I'm left alive after just means that I'm still around and pissed off and can do something about it.

And we fucking better.  Because the next fucker might not miss.

lol how exactly did he try to murder you?  I’ve heard such things are criminally prosecutable in this country. 

[quigley 1527]

On 12/14/2020 at 11:51 AM, wildcat09 said:

.

 

On 12/14/2020 at 1:49 PM, Satchel said:

I bet there are millions of Americans who agree with Tommy Tuberville about the three branches of government.

Wait, when did we add the 3rd branch? Is that Space Force?

[JimmyJames 12271]

34 minutes ago, HillaryFan420 said:

lol how exactly did he try to murder you?  I’ve heard such things are criminally prosecutable in this country. 

You wont last long here with turd posts like this. 

Like Melanie says, be better. 

[cactusflinthead 27594]

1 hour ago, HillaryFan420 said:

I would say the claims that he is a "fascist" and the comparisons to Mussolini and other dictators was a bit over the top, no?  Not withstanding that the term "fascist" has lost all meaning, I don't think Hitler or Mussolini illicitly gained power through the filing of lawsuits.  

You might consider posting less and reading more.

[lemonlime 5503]

3 hours ago, HillaryFan420 said:

This just makes no sense.  Trump in 2020 did better with minorities than any GOP candidate in 60 years.  Did those voters also consider him to be the great white hope?

This isn't true.  https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2020/11/09/no-trump-didnt-win-the-largest-share-of-non-white-voters-of-any-republican-in-60-years/?sh=37a97d5b4a09

[HillaryFan420 121]

3 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

This isn't true.  https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2020/11/09/no-trump-didnt-win-the-largest-share-of-non-white-voters-of-any-republican-in-60-years/?sh=37a97d5b4a09

He had the least white vote share of any Republican candidate in 60 years, something the article you cite doesn’t address. Of course candidates with a larger total vote share will capture a higher share of at least some minorities. The point is that Trump’s 2020 campaign was one of the least racialized in recent memory as evidenced by his relatively diverse vote share. 

[Satchel 6908]

53 minutes ago, HillaryFan420 said:

He had the least white vote share of any Republican candidate in 60 years, something the article you cite doesn’t address. Of course candidates with a larger total vote share will capture a higher share of at least some minorities. The point is that Trump’s 2020 campaign was one of the least racialized in recent memory as evidenced by his relatively diverse vote share. 

It’s a stretch to call Trump’s vote share even relatively diverse. We’ll know more about his validated minority vote share in the months to come. Trump understands what animates white racial grievance and his mastery of those triggers is unrivaled over our political landscape. 

[UpperWestside 6136]

4 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

Remind me of the times GWB spewed racist shit from his pulpit, encouraged white nationalism, spouted conspiracy theories, lied to Americans more than 20k times about literally stupid shit that didn’t even serve a purpose, had multiple members of his inner circle indicted for theft and/or obstruction of justice, refused to divest from his financial interests therefore making him open to foreign manipulation, called our soldiers losers and suckers, used his office to force other nations to dig up dirt on his political opponents, refused to a peaceful transfer of power after his terms were up and generally just normalized hate. Oh, and speaking of a more benign foreign policy, let’s talk about putting kids in cages and separating families as a deterrent for immigration as a national policy. Yeah, basically the same, amirite? And by basically the same I mean go fuck yourself. Go fuck yourself with a tree axe and then i hope you get fucked by pack of rabid proud boys. 
 

 

Somebody just F’d around and found out! 

[Walden Ponderer 12639]

10 hours ago, Satchel said:

Trump understands what animates white racial grievance and his mastery of those triggers is unrivaled over our political landscape. 

Actually, I'd argue that Reagan was better at it. He was also not a nasty piece of work, though, so it didn't have quite the same impact in terms of radicalizing the violent nincompoops at the far right. They felt validated by him, not inspired to violence by him. Still racially motivated, but not to see the difference would be, um.... wrong.

[TwiceHorn 31282]

2 minutes ago, Walden Ponderer said:

Actually, I'd argue that Reagan was better at it. He was also not a nasty piece of work, though, so it didn't have quite the same impact in terms of radicalizing the violent nincompoops at the far right. They felt validated by him, not inspired to violence by him. Still racially motivated, but not to see the difference would be, um.... wrong.

I think the "culture war" in the time of Reagan was less explicitly brown than it is today, especially under Trump.

There is some validity to the notion that our culture, meaning an inclusive culture, has deteriorated in that there is less communalism and more rank individualism, as brisket loves to preach. 

There may have been less say, black-white communalism back then (meaning pre-boomer), but there was more in each segment of society and a "net" higher level than there is today.  Reagan stoked the culture war more in that sense than the "endangered white people" grievance sense that has become more clear as we approach majority-minority status and as more "minorities" (read LGBT) gain status.

Some of that was unavoidably fueled by outright racism and some by a more vague fear rooted in subliminal racism, or just flat-out irrational fear, which Americans and probably everyone has in spades.  Of course now, it's completely explicit.

[hpslugga 4044]

On 12/14/2020 at 11:25 AM, Neonmoon said:

I know about the Dunning-Kruger Effect, in which people wrongly overestimate their intellect, but is there a phenomenon that explains when a person is intellectually incapable of understanding the information, but won't accept the answers given by someone who does understand the information? 

That's narcissism mixed with tribalism. You can't correct a narcissist on a previously held belief, because that would mean the person was wrong, and they're "never wrong." And in this particular case, the narcissism is rooted in tribalism. Most Americans don't view politics in the classical sense, which is when one acts on their best understanding of what's right vs. what's wrong. Americans, by and large, view politics as a team sport and that it's all about winning and losing. And it's hard to break that cycle because the greatest beneficiaries of that are the two big political parties. They've been able to accumulate large swaths of voters who they absolutely can count on to vote for their candidates no matter what. I mean for fuck's sake, Trump actually had a better turnout than he did in 2016, even though he proved himself to be the absolute worst president in US history.

On 12/14/2020 at 11:25 AM, Neonmoon said:

For example, a scientist has studied a subject for twenty years, has multiple degrees in the subject, but John Q. Idiot comes along, and says XYZ doesn't make sense because of something he read online.

Well that's Dunning-Kruger. There, a person with no professional background on the topic is asserting he knows more than a much more qualified professional. I would also suggest such a person is a fool. A fool is defined as a person who too readily accepts dubious claims from questionable sources based on insufficient information.

On 12/14/2020 at 11:25 AM, Neonmoon said:

The scientist explains to the John Q. Idiot that the article he read doesn't take into account a hundred other variables and studies, and thus the conclusions are incorrect. John Q. Idiot then says yeah but what about this, and the process repeats itself.

Again, back to narcissism. Complete inability to recognize when someone is wrong, which inevitably yields a person unable to learn anything. But that is an important example you illustrate because what it also shows is a person using apologetics, which is when someone perpetually lies in defense of something that's indefensible. Some will also tell you that this is confirmation bias, but that's really just a means to an end. The big question in those instances isn't THAT it's confirmation bias, it's why the person is using it.

On 12/14/2020 at 11:25 AM, Neonmoon said:

The scientist waste time trying to convince the idiot of truths they will not accept because they're too ignorant to understand them. 

This is pretty much where society sits right now

Yes it is, and that Antrim County audit nonsense is a perfect example of it. Seriously read what actually did happen with that whole thing, then observe the pro-Sidney Powell commentary on it and you will notice that it's no exaggeration to say that she and her idiot followers are absolutely wrong about absolutely everything that they said. But the point is that they just run with it...then someone like you might try to explain it to them...then they still believe, maybe even more fervently than they did before you spoke, in the lie. 

[DonkeyCigars 144]

I’ve beat this drum before, but the genie is out of the bottle, the toothpaste is out of the tube, or whatever analogy you want to use to express the idea that there has been an inflection point and an unrecoverable shift, in that short of a) WWIII or b) Censorship of Internet a la China, American’s are never going to have a shared understanding and culture and ethic again.

The internet has shattered that mirror that is America and there are too many individual shards with their own world views and agendas and beliefs and desires for themselves and their pod of humans (family/friends), to ever be a singular pane of glass again.

[Mrs Whiggins 13049]

13 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

That's narcissism mixed with tribalism. You can't correct a narcissist on a previously held belief, because that would mean the person was wrong, and they're "never wrong." And in this particular case, the narcissism is rooted in tribalism. Most Americans don't view politics in the classical sense, which is when one acts on their best understanding of what's right vs. what's wrong. Americans, by and large, view politics as a team sport and that it's all about winning and losing. And it's hard to break that cycle because the greatest beneficiaries of that are the two big political parties. They've been able to accumulate large swaths of voters who they absolutely can count on to vote for their candidates no matter what. I mean for fuck's sake, Trump actually had a better turnout than he did in 2016, even though he proved himself to be the absolute worst president in US history.

Well that's Dunning-Kruger. There, a person with no professional background on the topic is asserting he knows more than a much more qualified professional. I would also suggest such a person is a fool. A fool is defined as a person who too readily accepts dubious claims from questionable sources based on insufficient information.

Again, back to narcissism. Complete inability to recognize when someone is wrong, which inevitably yields a person unable to learn anything. But that is an important example you illustrate because what it also shows is a person using apologetics, which is when someone perpetually lies in defense of something that's indefensible. Some will also tell you that this is confirmation bias, but that's really just a means to an end. The big question in those instances isn't THAT it's confirmation bias, it's why the person is using it.

Yes it is, and that Antrim County audit nonsense is a perfect example of it. Seriously read what actually did happen with that whole thing, then observe the pro-Sidney Powell commentary on it and you will notice that it's no exaggeration to say that she and her idiot followers are absolutely wrong about absolutely everything that they said. But the point is that they just run with it...then someone like you might try to explain it to them...then they still believe, maybe even more fervently than they did before you spoke, in the lie. 

Is there a way to give more than one reppy thing, because this is a very good explanation and you should post more.

[Dahobbs 17447]

11 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

I’ve beat this drum before, but the genie is out of the bottle, the toothpaste is out of the tube, or whatever analogy you want to use to express the idea that there has been an inflection point and an unrecoverable shift, in that short of a) WWIII or b) Censorship of Internet a la China, American’s are never going to have a shared understanding and culture and ethic again.

The internet has shattered that mirror that is America and there are too many individual shards with their own world views and agendas and beliefs and desires for themselves and their pod of humans (family/friends), to ever be a singular pane of glass again.

The internet is just a tool. You're blaming the hammer for shattering the mirror instead of the people that wielded it. And it didn't even start with the internet. It started with talk radio and slowly transitioned into other mediums. I also disagree with your conclusion. I don't think the idea of America is lost. We still share a lot more in common than the amplified rhetoric suggests. You just need those in power to stop trying to break things in order to empower themselves and instead start trying to fix things. 

[Neonmoon 38127]

28 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

That's narcissism mixed with tribalism. You can't correct a narcissist on a previously held belief, because that would mean the person was wrong, and they're "never wrong." And in this particular case, the narcissism is rooted in tribalism. Most Americans don't view politics in the classical sense, which is when one acts on their best understanding of what's right vs. what's wrong. Americans, by and large, view politics as a team sport and that it's all about winning and losing. And it's hard to break that cycle because the greatest beneficiaries of that are the two big political parties. They've been able to accumulate large swaths of voters who they absolutely can count on to vote for their candidates no matter what. I mean for fuck's sake, Trump actually had a better turnout than he did in 2016, even though he proved himself to be the absolute worst president in US history.

Well that's Dunning-Kruger. There, a person with no professional background on the topic is asserting he knows more than a much more qualified professional. I would also suggest such a person is a fool. A fool is defined as a person who too readily accepts dubious claims from questionable sources based on insufficient information.

Again, back to narcissism. Complete inability to recognize when someone is wrong, which inevitably yields a person unable to learn anything. But that is an important example you illustrate because what it also shows is a person using apologetics, which is when someone perpetually lies in defense of something that's indefensible. Some will also tell you that this is confirmation bias, but that's really just a means to an end. The big question in those instances isn't THAT it's confirmation bias, it's why the person is using it.

Yes it is, and that Antrim County audit nonsense is a perfect example of it. Seriously read what actually did happen with that whole thing, then observe the pro-Sidney Powell commentary on it and you will notice that it's no exaggeration to say that she and her idiot followers are absolutely wrong about absolutely everything that they said. But the point is that they just run with it...then someone like you might try to explain it to them...then they still believe, maybe even more fervently than they did before you spoke, in the lie. 

Thank for the educated response, I’m guessing you are somehow involved in psychology or medicine. What do you think are ways to combat this Dunning-Kruger Tribal Narcissism Syndrome? If any?

[hpslugga 4044]

5 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

The internet is just a tool. You're blaming the hammer for shattering the mirror instead of the people that wielded it. And it didn't even start with the internet. It started with talk radio and slowly transitioned into other mediums. I also disagree with your conclusion. I don't think the idea of America is lost. We still share a lot more in common than the amplified rhetoric suggests. You just need those in power to stop trying to break things in order to empower themselves and instead start trying to fix things. 

We can’t depend on people on power to do anything that’s outside of what benefits them. This is something that we have to fix ourselves.

[Bateshorn 9903]

Just a quick reminder that most voters love tax cuts and government spending. And also worry about deficits.

The flag waving granny screaming about socialism while following it up in the next breath with "HANDS OFF MY SOCIAL SECURITY!"

If that doesn't sum it all up, I don't know what to tell you.

[hpslugga 4044]

10 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Thank for the educated response, I’m guessing you are somehow involved in psychology or medicine. What do you think are ways to combat this Dunning-Kruger Tribal Narcissism Syndrome? If any?

It has to start with self-awareness. It absolutely has to. If you can’t recognize that you’re going down the pathways of Dunning-Kruger/sociopathy/narcissism/et al in their most infant stages, you’re going to have a damned difficult time shedding it. Those things are cancers, and like actual cancer, the more you coddle it and the more you put off treating it, the less success you’ll have in treating it when you finally come to grips with it.

I mean just look at narcissism. It’s a damn difficult thing for a person to accept that about himself/herself when the core foundation of the issue is that s/he doesn’t think there’s  anything that is wrong with them. The most difficult sentence in the world to say seriously is “I’m a narcissist and I need help.” 
 

Now, the next question you’re probably going to ask is “well how does a person improve self awareness?” Well the answer to that is education, and that’s where we are fucked at the moment.

Edited December 17, 2020 by hpslugga

[Dahobbs 17447]

7 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

We can’t depend on people on power to do anything that’s outside of what benefits them. This is something that we have to fix ourselves.

That's fair. Sad, but fair.

[Brisketexan 104624]

15 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

We can’t depend on people on power to do anything that’s outside of what benefits them.

This is actually a big pivot point.

I'm certainly not going to say that politicians are or have been generally or uniformly altruistic, operating out of a sense of public service, etc.  There has always been significant crookery, self-serving, narcissist assholery.

BUT....it was usually tempered with SOME sense of public service.  For real.  I actually know a LOT of politicians (mostly local, but some higher up).  While there are egos in play, some of them are narcissist enough to let their ego have too much control, etc.....but the vast majority of them are genuinely trying to do what's right for their constituents.  Same with the folks I know in the administrative state/bureaucracy.  Some are incredibly skilled, some....not so much.  Some go on petty power trips.  But by and large, again, they are in it to serve the public.  That doesn't mean that we don't often disagree, think they have shitty policy ideas, etc.  But service to "the greater good" is the common motive for most of them, and even for those of us who disagree with them.

I think that's still generally true -- but to have a huge outlier like Trump at the very top totally broke us.  We've never had a purely self-serving narcissist, serving ONLY himself, and willing to sacrifice each and every American to do so, at the top.  That's a huge break from a key norm.

But with respect to politics in general, it's a reality problem.

Where it gets skewed is when you have two separate realities.  When a politician's desire to improve our environmental health is disputed not because you have a different idea as to the balance of business interests and environmental protections, but rather because that politician is doing so as part of a cadre of infant-blood drinking cultists who want to sacrifice Americans in Wal-Mart jails to their Communist Chinese masters, so he's evil and must be opposed.

Different realities doom us to outcomes that can't be recognized.

I've used this analogy before.  We are all horrified by Andrea Yates' murder by drowning of her children.  In our reality, that was a horrific murder.  But...she was psychotic.  She actually thought she was saving her children from being taken by Satan.  And if in YOUR reality, your children are about to be taken by Satan unless you act immediately to send them to heaven, well, it would be insane for you NOT to send them to heaven to protect them.

In one reality, drowning your kids is murder.

In another reality, drowning your kids is saving them.

Those two realities can never be reconciled.

As a country, that's the conundrum that we're in.  And yes, one of those realities is completely fucking insane.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Brisketexan

[Neonmoon 38127]

6 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

It has to start with self-awareness. It absolutely has to. If you can’t recognize that you’re going down the pathways of Dunning-Kruger/sociopathy/narcissism/et al in their most infant stages, you’re going to have a damned difficult time shedding it. Those things are cancers, and like actual cancer, the more to coddle it and the more you put off treating it, the less success you’ll have in treating it when you finally come to grips with it.

I mean just look at narcissism. It’s a damn difficult thing for a person to accept that about himself/herself when the core foundation of the issue is that s/he doesn’t think there’s  anything that is wrong with them. The most difficult sentence in the world to say seriously is “I’m a narcissist and I need help.” 
 

Now, the next question you’re probably going to ask is “well how does a person improve self awareness?” Well the answer to that is education, and that’s where we are fucked at the moment.

Yes we are fucked. Education is sorely lacking in this country, and not just that but the culture against higher learning. Throw in the propaganda networks and social media, and this will be a long long battle. 

[TwiceHorn 31282]

1 minute ago, Bateshorn said:

Just a quick reminder that most voters love tax cuts and government spending. And also worry about deficits.

The flag waving granny screaming about socialism while following it up in the next breath with "HANDS OFF MY SOCIAL SECURITY!"

If that doesn't sum it all up, I don't know what to tell you.

So true.  And don't forget all the Trumpers against "SoCIaLizED medicine" that have been on it for 10-15-20 years.

[alincoln 2364]

A majority of Americans have an IQ of less than 100 and almost all Americans were educated in our laughably poor public school system.  The average voter possesses limited intellectual capacity and received a pathetic education.  These realities won't change during our lifetimes so I recommend acceptance.  Democracy is an aspirational concept that ignores the unrelenting mediocrity of humanity.  Just an elaborate game played by groups of self-serving politically engaged elites to determine who can best manipulate the masses into pushing a button.  That said, I'm not convinced that blindly pushing a button based on tribal allegiance is any more stupid than spending thousands of hours on this board smelling one's farts and changing zero minds.  

[Biff Tannen 45495]

3 minutes ago, alincoln said:

A majority of Americans have an IQ of less than 100 and almost all Americans were educated in our laughably poor public school system.  The average voter possesses limited intellectual capacity and received a pathetic education.  These realities won't change during our lifetimes so I recommend acceptance.  Democracy is an aspirational concept that ignores the unrelenting mediocrity of humanity.  Just an elaborate game played by groups of self-serving politically engaged elites to determine who can best manipulate the masses into pushing a button.  That said, I'm not convinced that blindly pushing a button based on tribal allegiance is any more stupid than spending thousands of hours on this board smelling one's farts and changing zero minds.  

[956 Worldwide 34443]

5 minutes ago, alincoln said:

A majority of Americans have an IQ of less than 100 and almost all Americans were educated in our laughably poor public school system.  The average voter possesses limited intellectual capacity and received a pathetic education.  These realities won't change during our lifetimes so I recommend acceptance.  Democracy is an aspirational concept that ignores the unrelenting mediocrity of humanity.  Just an elaborate game played by groups of self-serving politically engaged elites to determine who can best manipulate the masses into pushing a button.  That said, I'm not convinced that blindly pushing a button based on tribal allegiance is any more stupid than spending thousands of hours on this board smelling one's farts and changing zero minds.  

Mediocre!

[DonkeyCigars 144]

36 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Yes we are fucked. Education is sorely lacking in this country, and not just that but the culture against higher learning. Throw in the propaganda networks and social media, and this will be a long long battle. 

Agreed with first sentence. I think Education is another symptom of the overall disease which I outlined above, being the fragmentation-beyond-repair-yet-trying-to-be-a-singular-unified-platform. Everything depends on the end goals.

For example, education is not a monolith. What is education, the value therein, and how to obtain, retain, and apply it is not a monolith. Yet we talk about it like it is. What it means to me and my children likely means something different to you. It also likely means something different than Mr. Farmer in East Texas or Mrs. Oilman in West Texas and Mrs. Finance in NY or Mr. Python in SF. Mr. Poetry and Mrs. ClassicLit in Austin also has ideas of what education means.

The "Culture against higher learning" is more the culture against being a member of a populated contingent being forced to engage in things either actively in conflict with their agendas/values or indirectly. This is why I think it's good to have a Texas A&M and a Baylor and a UT-Austin-- you can basically pick your "track" on how you want to be educated with a bend to your underlying values and needs, be it "conservative" or "faith-inspired" or "liberal".

Also, having public schools built on things like Critical race theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory#:~:text=Critical%20race%20theory%20(CRT)%20is,race%2C%20law%2C%20and%20power) makes sense if you look at the population and constituents of public schools. For me, and a lot of you, it makes sense to invest in the kids education at an early age via private school. For others, the public school's framework either is acceptable or desired.

Both sets of parents are discerning, it just depends on the end goals.

Edited December 17, 2020 by DonkeyCigars

[DonkeyCigars 144]

54 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

The internet is just a tool. You're blaming the hammer for shattering the mirror instead of the people that wielded it. And it didn't even start with the internet. It started with talk radio and slowly transitioned into other mediums. I also disagree with your conclusion. I don't think the idea of America is lost. We still share a lot more in common than the amplified rhetoric suggests. You just need those in power to stop trying to break things in order to empower themselves and instead start trying to fix things. 

Completely disagree with your opinion here.

[hpslugga 4044]

35 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

This is actually a big pivot point.

I'm certainly not going to say that politicians are or have been generally or uniformly altruistic, operating out of a sense of public service, etc.  There has always been significant crookery, self-serving, narcissist assholery.

BUT....it was usually tempered with SOME sense of public service.  For real.  I actually know a LOT of politicians (mostly local, but some higher up).  While there are egos in play, some of them are narcissist enough to let their ego have too much control, etc.....but the vast majority of them are genuinely trying to do what's right for their constituents.  Same with the folks I know in the administrative state/bureaucracy.  Some are incredibly skilled, some....not so much.  Some go on petty power trips.  But by and large, again, they are in it to serve the public.  That doesn't mean that we don't often disagree, think they have shitty policy ideas, etc.  But service to "the greater good" is the common motive for most of them, and even for those of us who disagree with them.

I think that's still generally true -- but to have a huge outlier like Trump at the very top totally broke us.  We've never had a purely self-serving narcissist, serving ONLY himself, and willing to sacrifice each and every American to do so, at the top.  That's a huge break from a key norm.

But with respect to politics in general, it's a reality problem.

Where it gets skewed is when you have two separate realities.  When a politician's desire to improve our environmental health is disputed not because you have a different idea as to the balance of business interests and environmental protections, but rather because that politician is doing so as part of a cadre of infant-blood drinking cultists who want to sacrifice Americans in Wal-Mart jails to their Communist Chinese masters, so he's evil and must be opposed.

Different realities doom us to outcomes that can't be recognized.

I've used this analogy before.  We are all horrified by Andrea Yates' murder by drowning of her children.  In our reality, that was a horrific murder.  But...she was psychotic.  She actually thought she was saving her children from being taken by Satan.  And if in YOUR reality, your children are about to be taken by Satan unless you act immediately to send them to heaven, well, it would be insane for you NOT to send them to heaven to protect them.

In one reality, drowning your kids is murder.

In another reality, drowning your kids is saving them.

Those two realities can never be reconciled.

As a country, that's the conundrum that we're in.  And yes, one of those realities is completely fucking insane.

What makes you think Trump was an outlier?

[GreenspointTexas 9567]

17 hours ago, Satchel said:

While some of the behavior exhibited by Trumpists is attributable to mental/emotional dysfunction, much of the fidelity to the cause is rooted in the comfort they get from belief in Trump as the last great white hope. When they discover the majority of American kindergartners are no longer white, they reflexively look for a leader who is as upset about that as they are.

This is absolutely 100000% correct and the root basis for most of white americans political “outrage”

 

 

Its sad and hilarious. Most whites dont realize that there will be very few white people in power in 100 years, regardless of how they vote

[wildcat09 29256]

5 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Agreed with first sentence. I think Education is another symptom of the overall disease which I outlined above, being the fragmentation-beyond-repair-yet-trying-to-be-a-singular-unified-platform. Everything depends on the end goals.

For example, education is not a monolith. What is education, the value therein, and how to obtain, retain, and apply it is not a monolith. Yet we talk about it like it is. What it means to me and my children likely means something different to you. It also likely means something different than Mr. Farmer in East Texas or Mrs. Oilman in West Texas and Mrs. Finance in NY or Mr. Python in SF. Mr. Poetry and Mrs. ClassicLit in Austin also has ideas of what education means.

The "Culture against higher learning" is more the culture against being a member of a populated contingent being forced to engage in things either actively in conflict with their agendas/values or indirectly. This is why I think it's good to have a Texas A&M and a Baylor and a UT-Austin-- you can basically pick your "track" on how you want to be educated with a bend to your underlying values and needs, be it "conservative" or "faith-inspired" or "liberal".

Also, having public schools built on things like Critical race theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory#:~:text=Critical%20race%20theory%20(CRT)%20is,race%2C%20law%2C%20and%20power) makes sense if you look at the population and constituents of public schools. For me, and a lot of you, it makes sense to invest in the kids education at an early age via private school. For others, the public school's framework either is acceptable or desired.

Both sets of parents are discerning, it just depends on the end goals.

...have you ever considered not doing this?

[Dahobbs 17447]

11 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Completely disagree with your opinion here.

Right, because you don't want to lay any responsibility at the feet of those you worship. The hammer broke the mirror on its own. 🙄

Edited December 17, 2020 by Dahobbs