China Sucks

[SmokeyTheBear 5562]

Cause he has an affinity for cheetos flavored mushrooms?

[UpperWestside 6163]

That protestor getting shot was horrific. Life seems to mean nothing in that part of the world. I think that within the next decade that this is a country we will be at war with. 

[YChang 3443]

That protestor getting shot was horrific. Life seems to mean nothing in that part of the world. I think that within the next decade that this is a country we will be at war with. 

Urgh... Same as when our citizens get shot by police here right? Guess we don’t value life as well.

[Horn of Gabriel 1614]

I’m curious what the liberal response to China is these days. Seems to me we have tried the “play nice” appeasement route, also the globalist route via WTO. It hasn’t worked because it assumes rational honest actors on the other side of the table. That’s not China. They have a whole different frame of morality, ideas around intellectual property (there is none unless we made it), and theft.

I don’t like the sanctions and trade war but I ask what the alternative is at this point? Asking nicely and harsh language hasn’t worked. TPP was shaping up to be a disaster.

[David Dennison 18856]

3 minutes ago, Horn of Gabriel said:

I’m curious what the liberal response to China is these days. Seems to me we have tried the “play nice” appeasement route, also the globalist route via WTO. It hasn’t worked because it assumes rational honest actors on the other side of the table. That’s not China. They have a whole different frame of morality, ideas around intellectual property (there is none unless we made it), and theft.

I don’t like the sanctions and trade war but I ask what the alternative is at this point? Asking nicely and harsh language hasn’t worked. TPP was shaping up to be a disaster.

Stop buying goods manufactured in China.

[David Dennison 18856]

10 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

That protestor getting shot was horrific. Life seems to mean nothing in that part of the world. I think that within the next decade that this is a country we will be at war with. 

We're not going to have a hot war with China. They have 1.3 billion people and nuclear weapons.

So yeah, that's not happening.

Edited November 11, 2019 by David Dennison

[bolverk 29671]

18 minutes ago, Horn of Gabriel said:

I’m curious what the liberal response to China is these days. Seems to me we have tried the “play nice” appeasement route, also the globalist route via WTO. It hasn’t worked because it assumes rational honest actors on the other side of the table. That’s not China. They have a whole different frame of morality, ideas around intellectual property (there is none unless we made it), and theft.

I don’t like the sanctions and trade war but I ask what the alternative is at this point? Asking nicely and harsh language hasn’t worked. TPP was shaping up to be a disaster.

1) Disagree on your opinion of TPP. It had some flaws that could be further negotiated but the point was to counter Chinese dominance by isolating it with a ring of economies allied with broad American interests.

2) Don't fucking start a trade war with the EU. Instead, ally with them to take fight for IP protections against Chinese theft in international courts.

3) Leverage Indian hostility toward China.

In other words, don't retreat from the world stage by turning our backs on our historic allies and leverage the capital we'd built since WWII to rein in China. Instead, Trump has taken the opposite approach to start a one-on-one trade war with them.

[UpperWestside 6163]

33 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

We're not going to have a hot war with China. They have 1.3 billion people and nuclear weapons.

So yeah, that's not happening.

I do not believe that that will always be a deterrent. Human beings excel at destroying one another over everything else. Dotard won't be the last crazy person we have running this country. 

[Mrs Whiggins 13050]

I ran across this info and found it fascinating and scary for the broader implications, which admittedly may be a false concern on my part. I prefer maps on roadways and use GPS as a complement to the maps instead of the other way around but I am probably, no not probably, I am a Luddite when it comes to slowly accepting new tech. So what say you all about the GPS spoofing? Also, I did not know sand is valuable. Learned more than one thing today, cool!

 

[Dbeasy 15047]

I’m curious what the liberal response to China is these days. Seems to me we have tried the “play nice” appeasement route, also the globalist route via WTO. It hasn’t worked because it assumes rational honest actors on the other side of the table. That’s not China. They have a whole different frame of morality, ideas around intellectual property (there is none unless we made it), and theft.

I don’t like the sanctions and trade war but I ask what the alternative is at this point? Asking nicely and harsh language hasn’t worked. TPP was shaping up to be a disaster.

You do realize the current Trump “sanctions” and “trade war” have a very minimal effect on Chinese companies right? Please tell me you understand that the whole thing is mostly a dog and pony show for dumb-ass Americans who don’t really understand international trade.

As someone who imports components from China I can tell you it’s hurting American companies and citizens far worse than Chinese companies. There is a way to do this and inflict real pain but our Cheeto-in-chief doesn’t have a clue what he’s doing.

[F250 28769]

On 11/11/2019 at 10:04 AM, bolverk said:

1) Disagree on your opinion of TPP. It had some flaws that could be further negotiated but the point was to counter Chinese dominance by isolating it with a ring of economies allied with broad American interests.

2) Don't fucking start a trade war with the EU. Instead, ally with them to take fight for IP protections against Chinese theft in international courts.

3) Leverage Indian hostility toward China.

In other words, don't retreat from the world stage by turning our backs on our historic allies and leverage the capital we'd built since WWII to rein in China. Instead, Trump has taken the opposite approach to start a one-on-one trade war with them.

Agree, electing Trump as President and then allowing him to implement his mad negotiator skills rather than continue down the established multilateral trade system is the equivalent of firing Herman and company and replacing them with a Madden NFL champion. Sure it's something we might joke about doing but holy fuck don't actually do it.

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

On 11/11/2019 at 9:36 AM, Horn of Gabriel said:

I’m curious what the liberal response to China is these days. Seems to me we have tried the “play nice” appeasement route, also the globalist route via WTO. It hasn’t worked because it assumes rational honest actors on the other side of the table. That’s not China. They have a whole different frame of morality, ideas around intellectual property (there is none unless we made it), and theft.

What is the goal with China? Are we trying to contain their power and influence? Are we trying to westernize their society towards more pro-democracy? Are we trying to push them closer to being an enemy or an ally?   This is the problem with China.  We don’t know what the fuck we want to do and our policy changes every few years. 

I think we need a clearly defined destination with China and then decide how to get there because China certainly has long term plans for us.

[Parliament 14257]

 

 

I can't find a good print story.  HK police were fighting with students at HK University or something.  Looks serious.

[InkaUtexas 25913]

1 hour ago, Parliament said:

 

 

I can't find a good print story.  HK police were fighting with students at HK University or something.  Looks serious.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-50465337

[Parliament 14257]

Thanks for the link.

That seems like a lot:

[XYZ 2154]

21 hours ago, Dbeasy said:

There is a way to do this and inflict real pain but our Cheeto-in-chief doesn’t have a clue what he’s doing.

 

What way is that?

[Neonmoon 38129]

Where have I seen this done before?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/24/china-cables-leak-no-escapes-reality-china-uighur-prison-camp

Quote

The internal workings of a vast chain of Chinese internment camps used to detain at least a million people from the nation’s Muslim minorities are laid out in leaked Communist Party documents published on Sunday.

The China Cables, a cache of classified government papers, appear to provide the first official glimpse into the structure, daily life and ideological framework behind centres in north-western Xinjiang region that have provoked international condemnation.

Obtained by the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists (ICIJ)and shared with the Guardian, the BBC and 15 other media partners, the documents have been independently assessed by experts who have concluded they are authentic. China said they had been “fabricated”.

Play Video

1:31

 'Don't listen to fake news': Chinese ambassador pressed over detention camps in Xinjiang – video

However, the documents are consistent with mounting evidence that the country runs detention camps that are secret, involuntary and used for ideological “education transformation”. 

When reports surfaced of mass internments without trial, authorities in Beijing initially denied the existence of the detention centres, whose inmates are mostly Uighurs and other ethnic minorities.

After satellite photos and a flood of testimony from former detainees and relatives became impossible to ignore, the party insisted they were for voluntary “vocational training”.

The cables provide apparent confirmation from within China’s bureaucracy that the camps were envisaged from the start as brainwashing detention centres, to be constructed on a massive scale, with inmates confined by multiple layers of security.

 

[workswithseed 2103]

This is known, or is this to their people?

[atomheartbevo 89656]

3 hours ago, workswithseed said:

This is known, or is this to their people?

Fairly certain the Muslim community will make it widely known.

This is a good way to kick off a fight with a lot of different groups that are already angry about various other things they see wrong in the world.

[atomheartbevo 89656]

This is not going to go over well with the Chinese government.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/24/asia/hong-kong-district-council-elections-intl/index.html

Landslide victory for Hong Kong pro-democracy parties in de facto protest referendum

Quote

Pro-democracy candidates appear to have made major gains in Hong Kong's District Council elections, as early results trickled in Monday morning, with multiple high-profile pro-government figures losing their seats. 

More than 2.9 million people turned out to vote in Sunday's elections, which have been framed as a de facto referendum on the almost six months of ongoing protests in the semi-autonomous Chinese city. With more than 95% of constituencies declared, pro-democracy candidates appeared to have won a landslide victory. 

Speaking to CNN, Kenneth Chan, an expert on politics and governance at Hong Kong Baptist University, said the more than 70% turnout -- higher than any other election in the city's history -- "exceeded many predictions" and demonstrated both Hong Kongers' commitment to democracy and that they are "counting on this election to point a way out of this impasse."

Public broadcaster RTHK described the results as a "rout" and a "staggering victory for the pro-democracy camp," with the majority of the 18 district councils expected to flip to pro-democratic control in an "unmistakable message" to the city's leader Carrie Lam.

Quote

Opposition candidates took nearly 90% of the seats up for grabs, the broadcaster reported.

Quote

District councils are elected on four-year terms, and largely handle local affairs. They lack much in terms of real power, serving mainly to advise the government on issues affecting their neighborhoods and the allocation of funds for local projects.

The vote has taken on an outsized importance in recent years, however, as a way of signaling wider discontent about the slow pace of political reform. Ahead of Sunday's vote, pro-Beijing parties controlled all 18 district councils, so any victory for the broader pro-democracy camp will inevitably be cast as a win for protesters.

 

[HRSchenker 2268]

China promised Hong Kong their own form of government for 50 years after the handoff. We're only 28 years away from the day they become one with the communists. Violence is on the horizon with a vote like this.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

 

[berlinerbaer 678]

District elections were held Sunday in Hong Kong and the pro-democracy parties handed the pro-Beijing party its ass on a platter. The Dems won 90% of races, tripling their seats amid record-breaking turnout. What's funny is that the CCP didn't see it coming.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/25/hong-kong-election-beijing-media-delusions-victory/

Quote

In newsrooms in Beijing, however, the results began a panicked scramble to find a way to spin them in favor of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP). In stark contrast to most observers in Hong Kong, editors—and the officials behind them—appear to have sincerely believed that the establishment parties would win an overwhelming victory. Propaganda is a heady drug, and Beijing got high on its own supply.

 

I spoke with editors and journalists, both foreign and Chinese, at China Daily, the flagship English-language newspaper of state media; at the English-language version of the nationalist tabloid Global Times; and at the People’s Daily—the CCP’s official newspaper. (My sources universally asked for anonymity.) At each paper, copy was filed to editors the night before the Nov. 24 elections assuming a strong victory for the establishment. This included predictions of increased majorities (with numbers left to be filled in as needed) for figures such as Junius Ho, whose vicious rhetoric against protesters has left him widely hated but whose comments regularly appear in the Global Times.

The misplaced confidence in Beijing’s victory points to a worrying problem; at high levels within the CCP, officials believe their own propaganda about Hong Kong. That’s a frightening prospect for both governance in China and for the future of the city, especially as the system struggles to come up with political excuses for a cataclysmic failure.

 

[Biff Tannen 45678]

On 11/26/2019 at 10:48 PM, Hugo Stiglitz said:

 

This is fine. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

 

[Parliament 14257]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-12-02/china-private-firm-misses-2nd-chance-on-bond-as-contagion-swells

[workswithseed 2103]

I'd like to know why he voted against it.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

 

[Parliament 14257]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-anniversary-china-idUSKBN19L1J1

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Is anyone really surprised at Chinas comments ?

[workswithseed 2103]

1 minute ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Is anyone really surprised at Chinas comments ?

No, unfortunately. 

[TwiceHorn 31453]

On 11/11/2019 at 8:39 AM, YChang said:

 

Urgh... Same as when our citizens get shot by police here right? Guess we don’t value life as well.

 

 

Yeah, and it's not like China hasn't been whacking dissidents in public and private by the boxcar load for, I dunno, 75 years.

[workswithseed 2103]

God damn, they fucking use Muslims as fucking organ supply. It's sick.

[Thetexashammer 1062]

10 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

God damn, they fucking use Muslims as fucking organ supply. It's sick.

They're as bad as the Nazis. They're Chinazis.  

[KeysPhoneWallet 807]

So how’s the china stuff gonna end?

[bernorange 8361]

On 12/3/2019 at 7:20 PM, workswithseed said:

I'd like to know why he voted against it.

I voted no tonight on the UIGHUR Act (sanctions against China) for the same reason I voted no in the Hong Kong bill two weeks ago:

When our government meddles in the internal affairs of foreign countries, it invites those governments to meddle in our affairs.

— Thomas Massie (@RepThomasMassie) December 4, 2019

 

Reasonable people can come to different conclusions on this vote but,

Before expressing righteous indignation re: my vote against these sanctions, please consider whether you committed enough to the issue that you would personally go a week without buying something made in China

— Thomas Massie (@RepThomasMassie) December 4, 2019

[Dnaguy 11948]

14 hours ago, Thetexashammer said:

They're as bad as the Nazis. They're Chinazis.  

 

 

[TwiceHorn 31453]

17 hours ago, Parliament said:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-anniversary-china-idUSKBN19L1J1

So typical.  We signed an agreement/treaty yesterday.  Things have changed.  No agreement/treaty.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13511]

UK Arsenal soccer team has a Turkish player who publicly criticized China for the Muslim detention camps. China has now retaliated by banning arsenal matches from being shown in China.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/soccer-star-mesut-zil-under-fire-criticizing-china-s-muslim-n1102386

https://news.sky.com/story/chinas-state-tv-will-no-longer-show-arsenal-match-after-mesut-ozil-remarks-11887171
 

 

[Dnaguy 11948]

 

Quote

WASHINGTON — The American government secretly expelled two Chinese Embassy officials this fall after they drove on to a sensitive military base in Virginia, according to people with knowledge of the episode. The expulsions appear to be the first of Chinese diplomats suspected of espionage in more than 30 years.

American officials believe at least one of the Chinese officials was an intelligence officer operating under diplomatic cover, said six people with knowledge of the expulsions. The group, which included the officials’ wives, evaded military personnel pursuing them and stopped only after fire trucks blocked their path.

The episode in September, which neither Washington nor Beijing made public, has intensified concerns in the Trump administration that China is expanding its spying efforts in the United States as the two nations are increasingly locked in a geopolitical and economic rivalry. American intelligence officials say China poses a greater espionage threat than any other country.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/15/world/asia/us-china-spies.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share
 

 

[Neonmoon 38129]

On 12/12/2019 at 6:37 PM, KeysPhoneWallet said:

So how’s the china stuff gonna end?

Eventually the people will get tired of being controlled and rise up?

That’s kind of a pipe dream though 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

7 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Eventually the people will get tired of being controlled and rise up?

That’s kind of a pipe dream though 

It WILL happen because it always does.  For China though, we’re looking at 5,000 years. 

[HRSchenker 2268]

What's the retaliation if China decides tomorrow to fully integrate Hong Kong into China? No more Hong Kong government as they are now part of China. No more ease of travel for foreigners (China requires a Visa, Hong Kong does not). Is Britain going to take HK back and start WW3?

[Thetexashammer 1062]

China threatened Germany if they banned Huawei, then China would ban the seven million German cars from being sold into China. Germany couldn't handle that at all. https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/did-china-just-threaten-kill-german-car-exports-over-huawei-decision

Quote

"It is important to the Chinese government that Chinese companies in Germany are treated the same as others, without discrimination. If the German government made a decision that led to the exclusion of Huawei from the German market, it will have consequences - the Chinese government will not stand idly by. See, last year, 28 million cars were sold in China, 7 million of those were German. Can we just declare German cars unsafe, because we can make our own cars? No, that would be pure protectionism," Wu said at Handelsblatt.

Those microprocessors have back doors so China can spy, or shutdown the networks, or do whatever they want.

[Hornius Emeritus 12459]

Something that I had not considered:  Many American universities have become dependent on Chinese money/students coming in and paying out-of-state/higher tuitions.  If the Chinese turn that spigot off, which has been discussed,  at least some American universities will go under.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/05/19/universities-arent-ready-for-trade-war-casualties-china-trump-us/

[F250 28769]

On 12/15/2019 at 12:41 PM, HRSchenker said:

What's the retaliation if China decides tomorrow to fully integrate Hong Kong into China? No more Hong Kong government as they are now part of China. No more ease of travel for foreigners (China requires a Visa, Hong Kong does not). Is Britain going to take HK back and start WW3?

Great Britain is about to be reduced to just England, they are not going to do shit about Hong Kong.

[bernorange 8361]

On 12/19/2019 at 12:02 PM, F250 said:

Great Britain is about to be reduced to just England, they are not going to do shit about Hong Kong.

See, I forsee the HK conflict as the perfect opportunity for GB to stir the flames of nationalism.  Much like skirmishing with Argentina over the Falkland Islands.  If shit goes bad domestically over Brexit, it's opportunity knocking to engage in foreign conflict.

[Thetexashammer 1062]

45 minutes ago, bernorange said:

See, I forsee the HK conflict as the perfect opportunity for GB to stir the flames of nationalism.  Much like skirmishing with Argentina over the Falkland Islands.  If shit goes bad domestically over Brexit, it's opportunity knocking to engage in foreign conflict.

I agree with you, in principle. However, you would need a legitimate couterparty in HK, and interest in doing as you suggest within the UK. I don't think either of those things exist. Ultimately, we would have to be the military intercessors, and that's another thing I just don't see. 

I think we'll most likely engage in appeasement under the cover of mercantilism. 

[Dbeasy 15047]

The world sold out its human rights principles long ago in order to go after money in China via either low cost supply or customers. We were all told that it would be much more effective for human rights by trading with them to get them to change. Ya right.

Yet here we are now, where they are on the verge of achieving power so great that they can start impacting the rest of the world’s human rights, in a negative way. And oh by the way, they buy only the minimum amount of products required from the rest of the world to keep the spigot open to US and European markets, all via government controlled decision making to go with their govt sponsored industrial espionage activities. China will take away significant American human rights in the next 30 years and Americans won’t even see it coming. They’ve already shut down the first amendment rights of nba employees, as one simple example.