China Sucks

[InkaUtexas 26,068]

Just now, Rougarou said:

Houston officials say official documents are being burned in the courtyard of the Chinese Consulate, and first responders are not being allowed in to put out the fire.

Fuckers claiming diplomatic sovereignty? Or just don't care? 

 

[washparkhorn 9,939]

31 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Fuckers claiming diplomatic sovereignty? Or just don't care? 

 

Vienna Convention on diplomatic relations controls. 

[InkaUtexas 26,068]

1 minute ago, washparkhorn said:

Vienna Convention on diplomatic relations controls. 

yes, understand, but that also incorporates agreements for first response in cases of emergencies. Was just wondering how they can say nah, fuck you, the apartments around us catch fire we don't care. 

[washparkhorn 9,939]

4 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

yes, understand, but that also incorporates agreements for first response in cases of emergencies. Was just wondering how they can say nah, fuck you, the apartments around us catch fire we don't care. 

Tricky situation. If the official business of the Consulate is to burn paper tonight, locals have no authority to enter to prevent that activity. (diplomatic immunity for functions related to diplomacy). They can protect the apartments around the consulate. We (the US) were shredding like no other in Tehran when the "students" broke into our embassy. My guess is this is related to the espionage case recently surfaced by the DOJ and a possible Houston connection. 

[MaybeACoordinator 8,349]

3 hours ago, washparkhorn said:

Tricky situation. If the official business of the Consulate is to burn paper tonight, locals have no authority to enter to prevent that activity. (diplomatic immunity for functions related to diplomacy). They can protect the apartments around the consulate. We (the US) were shredding like no other in Tehran when the "students" broke into our embassy. My guess is this is related to the espionage case recently surfaced by the DOJ and a possible Houston connection. 

Eviction order came from DC

[Parliament 14,283]

 

 

 

Or perhaps just smoking a brisket cat because they were hungry for it. 

 

1234

 

 

 

[Rougarou 594]

Let’s go!!!!! I’m glad to see a hard stand to China right now. Not rooting for full on war, because I think that’s a lose/lose, but am encouraged we are doing something to push back on all of China’s horribleness lately.

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

2 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

Let’s go!!!!! I’m glad to see a hard stand to China right now. Not rooting for full on war, because I think that’s a lose/lose, but am encouraged we are doing something to push back on all of China’s horribleness lately.

Lately ?  They've been one of the top human rights violators since Mao was running the store. That we've embraced their cheap labor is embarrassing for a nation that allegedly is for freedom, human rights, and rule of law.  We should pull out everything, and let them sink back behind the wall.

[Sbbruin 21,866]

3 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Lately ?  They've been one of the top human rights violators since Mao was running the store. That we've embraced their cheap labor is embarrassing for a nation that allegedly is for freedom, human rights, and rule of law.  We should pull out everything, and let them sink back behind the wall.

I know.  But have you been on wish.com?  Damn, that shit is cheap.  It’s pretty awesome.  Just sayin’.

[Rougarou 594]

5 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Lately ?  They've been one of the top human rights violators since Mao was running the store. That we've embraced their cheap labor is embarrassing for a nation that allegedly is for freedom, human rights, and rule of law.  We should pull out everything, and let them sink back behind the wall.

Yes, lately. Their impact on US, directly and materially, first and foremost. 
And they aren’t going to sink back behind any wall, whether it be a Great Wall or Great Firewall, they are a true and powerful world force on par with America. That said we needed to do something beyond a firmly worded tweet.

[Biff Tannen 45,712]

18 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

We should pull out everything, and let them sink back behind the wall.

Well, but then you see, we would have to actually pay people a decent wage to bring manufacturing back to the US and we can't have that.  Gotta pay those CEO bonuses somehow.

[SydneyCarton 48,150]

It’s a poison pill. You do something about China, it’s going to fuck up America’s economy, hard, for a long time. Move industry back here or elsewhere? That takes time and products will be more expensive. Economy suffers and it’s “look what the liberals did!” I want everything out of China, but it has to be very smart and very calculated, and over time. You can’t just bring industry back here or place it elsewhere when there might not be people who even want or can do those jobs here. And to make it work, probably will have to be a lot of government sponsorship and funding. Then it’s Big Government! 

Edited July 22, 2020 by SydneyCarton

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

10 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

Yes, lately. Their impact on US, directly and materially, first and foremost. 
And they aren’t going to sink back behind any wall, whether it be a Great Wall or Great Firewall, they are a true and powerful world force on par with America. That said we needed to do something beyond a firmly worded tweet.

No, I disagree they're on par with the US.  They still lag behind in technology. Their military points that put. They couldn't even build their own aircraft carrier. They bought one from Russia.

Their economy is a house of cards held up by their continual devaluation of their yuan, slave labor, technological theft, etc. etc. . We have about an 8-1 exchange rate to their Yuan.  Their products are shoddy and quality is almost a joke.

[Rougarou 594]

3 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Well, but then you see, we would have to actually pay people a decent wage to bring manufacturing back to the US and we can't have that.  Gotta pay those CEO bonuses somehow.

Pay a decent wage AND items get crazy expensive that consumers are conditioned to get cheap. Toilet paste is out of the tube; I read somewhere an iPhone would cost close to $2500 if it were made in USA, as an example.

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

4 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

Well, but then you see, we would have to actually pay people a decent wage to bring manufacturing back to the US and we can't have that.  Gotta pay those CEO bonuses somehow.

Hey I agree, companies look for the cheapest labor.

[Rougarou 594]

3 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

Pay a decent wage AND items get crazy expensive that consumers are conditioned to get cheap. Toilet paste is out of the tube; I read somewhere an iPhone would cost close to $2500 if it were made in USA, as an example.

Lol “toilet paste” as it pertains to China and our outsourcing to them and how it’s conditioned us in a sad way, is a great Freudian slip.

[BigHorn'13 3,386]

1 hour ago, SydneyCarton said:

It’s a poison pill. You do something about China, it’s going to fuck up America’s economy, hard, for a long time. Move industry back here or elsewhere? That takes time and products will be more expensive. Economy suffers and it’s “look what the liberals did!” I want everything out of China, but it has to be very smart and very calculated, and over time. You can’t just bring industry back here or place it elsewhere when there might not be people who even want or can do those jobs here. And to make it work, probably will have to be a lot of government sponsorship and funding. Then it’s Big Government! 

Agreed with everything except the over time part, depending on what that timetable looks like. One of the scariest aspects of the CCP is just how ambitious they are in the global markets and how much they've already accomplished domestically. You drag your response out strategically and they're that much further along in countering. 

 

Also I don't see the same stranglehold on tech as some of you. To my understanding they're kicking our ass in 5G, AI, hybrid vehicles, and many others. Their innovation in tech (or anything else for that matter) will always be inferior in my eyes but fucking a if they can't ripoff, duplicate and develop with the worst of them...

[SydneyCarton 48,150]

14 minutes ago, BigHorn'13 said:

Agreed with everything except the over time part, depending on what that timetable looks like. One of the scariest aspects of the CCP is just how ambitious they are in the global markets and how much they've already accomplished domestically. You drag your response out strategically and they're that much further along in countering. 

 

Also I don't see the same stranglehold on tech as some of you. To my understanding they're kicking our ass in 5G, AI, hybrid vehicles, and many others. Their innovation in tech (or anything else for that matter) will always be inferior in my eyes but fucking a if they can't ripoff, duplicate and develop with the worst of them...

Dude, we can't snap our fingers and suddenly have PPE factories, medicine factories, tech factories just appear in America or other countries. They have to be built or re-purposed, partnership deals have to be struck, job seekers have to be trained if they don't exist. Money for that has to come from somewhere. How do you propel a corporation to do this when it will hurt revenues and stock prices? How do you pass legislation in the US (on anything) if it's going to be pushed forth as a government initiative to make this shit happen? It is LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE to do this quickly. We've had a PPE shortage for Coronavirus shit and medicines for months, or did in the early months of this pandemic. Have you seen new plants and infrastructure pop up on US soil since then? We don't even have a PLAN for that. People can flex all they want about "get out of china now" but it's a logical impossibility unless your plan is "Well, we don't need penicillin for 9-12 months, so fuck them we're pulling out." There's no way what you suggest can be done on multiple, MULTIPLE fronts without in some manner just devastating the American people. 

 

I agree with you on Tech, if they can't steal they're fucked to a degree. But you keep that up how, by not allowing chinese nationals to be educated in American colleges? Have you seen what happened to Iowa? That school basically is in the pocket of China at this point. Then you're talking about much, much greater subsidization of American colleges to literally help them remain open and functional in many cases. That's a piece of US legislation to pass. Good fucking luck there. Because it doesn't work at the state level consistently. Or is the hard line to let public colleges fail? All of these are massive decisions, and none of them happen in a vacuum. 

Edited July 22, 2020 by SydneyCarton

[wildcat09 29,376]

1 hour ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Lately ?  They've been one of the top human rights violators since Mao was running the store. That we've embraced their cheap labor is embarrassing for a nation that allegedly is for freedom, human rights, and rule of law.  We should pull out everything, and let them sink back behind the wall.

This would be great, but it's basically impossible now. It would've been a heavy lift diplomatically before we burned bridges with literally all of our allies. Thanks to Trump and the GOP, we're going to be the ones isolated from the world, and China will probably be able to fill the void we leave behind.

[Huckleberry 33,069]

6 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Dude, we can't snap our fingers and suddenly have PPE factories, medicine factories, tech factories just appear in America or other countries. They have to be built or re-purposed, partnership deals have to be struck, job seekers have to be trained if they don't exist. Money for that has to come from somewhere. How do you propel a corporation to do this when it will hurt revenues and stock prices? How do you pass legislation in the US (on anything) if it's going to be pushed forth as a government initiative to make this shit happen? It is LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE to do this quickly. We've had a PPE shortage for Coronavirus shit and medicines for months, or did in the early months of this pandemic. Have you seen new plants and infrastructure pop up on US soil since then? We don't even have a PLAN for that. People can flex all they want about "get out of china now" but it's a logical impossibility unless your plan is "Well, we don't need penicillin for 9-12 months, so fuck them we're pulling out." There's no way what you suggest can be done on multiple, MULTIPLE fronts without in some manner just devastating the American people. 

It can be done, but it would require selling it to the American people as a war and having the American people buy into it.

Unfortunately the odds of the American public buying into a war effort that only involves employing their fellow Americans, improving American infrastructure, helping their fellow Americans, and providing their fellow Americans with needed supplies as well as wanted luxuries is pretty slim. We much prefer war efforts that involve killing foreigners for being foreign.

Edited July 22, 2020 by Huckleberry

[wildcat09 29,376]

2 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

It can be done, but it would require selling it to the American people as a war and having the American people buy into it.

Unfortunately the odds of the American public buying into a war effort that only involves employing their fellow Americans, improving American infrastructure, helping their fellow Americans, and providing their fellow Americans with needed supplies as well as wanted luxuries is pretty slim. We much prefer war efforts that involve killing foreigners for being foreign.

Hence our problems with doing anything to address global warming. You're telling me that doing so would bring all these benefits to Americans, but would also benefit people in other countries too? Fuck you.

[BigHorn'13 3,386]

2 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Dude, we can't snap our fingers and suddenly have PPE factories, medicine factories, tech factories just appear in America or other countries. They have to be built or re-purposed, partnership deals have to be struck, job seekers have to be trained if they don't exist. Money for that has to come from somewhere. How do you propel a corporation to do this when it will hurt revenues and stock prices? How do you pass legislation in the US (on anything) if it's going to be pushed forth as a government initiative to make this shit happen? It is LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE to do this quickly. We've had a PPE shortage for Coronavirus shit and medicines for months, or did at the months of this pandemic. Have you seen new plants and infrastructure pop up on US soil since then? We don't even have a PLAN for that. People can flex all they want about "get out of china now" but it's a logical impossibility unless your plan is "Well, we don't need penicillin for 9-12 months, so fuck them we're pulling out." There's no way what you suggest can be done on multiple, MULTIPLE fronts without in some manner just devastating the American people. 

We're still in agreement, just need to define a timetable. If your outlook is in the next 20+ years then I'd say that's too late. Aiming for within the next 10? A lofty goal to be sure but at least (somewhat) reflects the sense of urgency we need have. 

[SydneyCarton 48,150]

4 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

It can be done, but it would require selling it to the American people as a war and having the American people buy into it.

Unfortunately the odds of the American public buying into a war effort that only involves employing their fellow Americans, improving American infrastructure, helping their fellow Americans, and providing their fellow Americans with needed supplies as well as wanted luxuries is pretty slim. We much prefer war efforts that involve killing foreigners for being foreign.

I agree. That's 100% what it would take. And I 100% think we're incapable of doing it as a country of selfish shits. And getting company's to buy in would be another level of hurdle, but achievable if public opinion overwhelmingly favored it. It is a sad indictment that basically we're only the best version of ourselves when we have some enemy to nebulously threaten us, such as the Cold War, but I guess it's time to stop expecting more from humanity and just operating within the constraints of who we actually keep showing ourselves to be. 

[SydneyCarton 48,150]

1 minute ago, BigHorn'13 said:

We're still in agreement, just need to define a timetable. If your outlook is in the next 20+ years then I'd say that's too late. Aiming for within the next 10? A lofty goal to be sure but at least (somewhat) reflects the sense of urgency we need have. 

I think we could do it in 10 years. I think we could do it in 5, honestly, or less, if we had public support as Huck has described. 

I don't think we're even close to capable of that at this point. Half of the country hates and distrusts the other half. That mandate can't exist. We'd need to overhaul social media and information distribution, which arguably means meddling with free speech and will be a third rail. Honestly, at this point, we need a Watchmen style alien to appear to fuck up a  major US city to unite us, and in this case I don't think China is nuking anyone anytime soon, so...

[Tom 2,959]

2 hours ago, Sbbruin said:

I know.  But have you been on wish.com?  Damn, that shit is cheap.  It’s pretty awesome.  Just sayin’.

What I love about wish is that it takes so long to ship that by the time it arrives, you forgot you ordered it and it's like a surprise present you've purchased for yourself.

[BigHorn'13 3,386]

Sad part is is that unifying moment has already came and past. Had the dotard taken this shit seriously from the beginning, I strongly believe that there would be more outrage over China's handling than ours. 

George Floyd's death would've probably fucked all of that up regardless so it's a moot point. 

 

Edited July 22, 2020 by BigHorn'13
Quoting Sydney

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

24 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

This would be great, but it's basically impossible now. It would've been a heavy lift diplomatically before we burned bridges with literally all of our allies. Thanks to Trump and the GOP, we're going to be the ones isolated from the world, and China will probably be able to fill the void we leave behind.

TRIMP TRUMP TRUMP !!!!! You're a one trump pony.  This issue has been building thru multiple admins both democrat, and republican.  

Trump is the first president to actually push back on the Chinese.  They're no better than the Soviet Union (worse in many ways).  It took a republican then to create the final vacuum that sealed their fate.

[Captainant 27,726]

7 minutes ago, BigHorn'13 said:

Sad part is is that unifying moment has already came and past. Had the dotard taken this shit seriously from the beginning, I strongly believe that there would be more outrage over China's handling than ours. 

George Floyd's death would've probably fucked all of that up regardless so it's a moot point. 

 

If we hadn't handled COVID just as poorly has china had, he may well have a point. But we're getting dunked on by the virus

[Rougarou 594]

18 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

It can be done, but it would require selling it to the American people as a war and having the American people buy into it.

Unfortunately the odds of the American public buying into a war effort that only involves employing their fellow Americans, improving American infrastructure, helping their fellow Americans, and providing their fellow Americans with needed supplies as well as wanted luxuries is pretty slim. We much prefer war efforts that involve killing foreigners for being foreign.

This is why the only way to deal with China is to actually have a war. I think this could be accomplished with a type of Cold War with a smattering of skirmishes, but there is always the risk of full-out, mutually assured destruction type war which would cripple the US in the short-term. But at least you have your unification and alignment on bringing things back.

36 minutes ago, BigHorn'13 said:

Agreed with everything except the over time part, depending on what that timetable looks like. One of the scariest aspects of the CCP is just how ambitious they are in the global markets and how much they've already accomplished domestically. You drag your response out strategically and they're that much further along in countering. 

 

Also I don't see the same stranglehold on tech as some of you. To my understanding they're kicking our ass in 5G, AI, hybrid vehicles, and many others. Their innovation in tech (or anything else for that matter) will always be inferior in my eyes but fucking a if they can't ripoff, duplicate and develop with the worst of them...

Just follow what is going on with semiconductors the past 3 months. Intel has fallen so far behind Taiwan (which means China, due to their nefarious geopolitical relationship) that America has had to get Taiwan Semiconductors (TSMC, which you may recognize is now the world's largest semiconductor manufacturer) to build a chip factory in Arizona because our homegrown chip companies suck and we can't even de-risk and try to separate our growing dependence on China/Taiwan without having them involved domestically. This will be a second-generation chip by the time the fab is finished with construction in 2024 which highlights just how far behind Intel is (by the way Nvidia passed Intel this past week, as a topical aside).

There are lessons for tech specifically and America broadly in this news.

First, while we learned in 2016 that technology was inseparable from domestic politics, the lesson in 2020 should be that technology is inseparable from geopolitics. It is chips that gave Silicon Valley its name, and everything about this chip decision is about geopolitics, not economics.

Second, at some point every tech company is going to have to make a choice between the U.S. and China. It is tempting to blame the tension between the two countries on Trump, but the truth is that China, particularly under Xi Jinping, has been significantly hardening its rhetoric and actions since before Trump was elected, and has been committed to not just catching but surpassing the U.S. in technology for years. There is a fundamental clash of values between the West and China, and it is clear that China is interested in exporting theirs. At some point everyone will be stuck in the middle, like TSMC, and Switzerland won’t be an option.

[Biff Tannen 45,712]

7 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

TRIMP TRUMP TRUMP !!!!! You're a one trump pony.  This issue has been building thru multiple admins both democrat, and republican.  

Trump is the first president to actually push back on the Chinese.  They're no better than the Soviet Union (worse in many ways).  It took a republican then to create the final vacuum that sealed their fate.

[Huckleberry 33,069]

1 minute ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

TRIMP TRUMP TRUMP !!!!! You're a one trump pony.  This issue has been building thru multiple admins both democrat, and republican.  

Trump is the first president to actually push back on the Chinese.  They're no better than the Soviet Union (worse in many ways).  It took a republican then to create the final vacuum that sealed their fate.

While your reflexes are still functioning, are you genuinely arguing that we don't have less international diplomatic support right now than we did 4 years ago?

The problem with lifelong GOP fanboys like you right now is that you're the one who simply reflexively flies off the handle when Trump's name is mentioned (as the beginning of your post proves). @wildcat09 said his name along with the GOP one time to make a point. You went all weird with it. The reason you get so defensive about it is because deep in your core you know that your party is rotten and that the higher-ups in the party structure have sold their soul to a complete piece of shit. The sight of the phrase "Trump and the GOP" bothers you because it disgusts you, not because you think it unduly bothers others.

Do a little self-reflection, man. When your party has rotted all the way through and embarrasses you, liberals aren't the ones you should be lashing out at, your party's leadership are the ones who deserve that. And you know it.

You've been on this board accusing people of Trump derangement syndrome for years while they told you what was going to happen. Now that it's actually happening, now that all those things you thought were fantastical because "he's not actually that bad" have become reality, you're ashamed that they were right and you were wrong. Turn that shame inward.

[Huckleberry 33,069]

2 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

This is why the only way to deal with China is to actually have a war. I think this could be accomplished with a type of Cold War with a smattering of skirmishes, but there is always the risk of full-out, mutually assured destruction type war which would cripple the US in the short-term. But at least you have your unification and alignment on bringing things back.

We absolutely need an intellectual war with China. But one half of the country's political divide right now literally celebrates ignorance and disdains education and intelligence. Maybe they could surprise me if you threw enough 'Murica stickers on the branding, but I don't see any way whatsoever that the half I'm talking about would be able to emotionally accept a war where the heroes are scientists and thinkers. They think heroes shoot foreigners, heroes aren't the ones who calculate reentry angles anymore. Those days are long gone.

[Rougarou 594]

Also speaking of tech, I'd be remiss if I didn't add that Alibaba is absolutely a beast and continues to spawn value. This week they announced their alibaba pay (ant pay I think it's called now) has 1.3bn users, valued at $200bn dollars, and is helping China to do with finance what we want to do with tech-- that is to separate dependence and carve out their own which they did by announcing the IPO will skip NASDAQ and be only available on HK Stock Exchange and Star Market. Star Market is China's 1 year old NASDAQ rival in Shanghai. This is obviously a play to be self-sufficient and independent from Wall St./America.

Oh and by the way, last time I checked Alibaba Cloud is quietly the 3rd largest Cloud Provider behind Amazon and MSFT and ahead of Google and Oracle.

[wildcat09 29,376]

14 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

TRIMP TRUMP TRUMP !!!!! You're a one trump pony.  This issue has been building thru multiple admins both democrat, and republican.  

Trump is the first president to actually push back on the Chinese.  They're no better than the Soviet Union (worse in many ways).  It took a republican then to create the final vacuum that sealed their fate.

You know the Trans Pacific Partnership excluded China, right? Why do you think that was? 

Trump is the first President to make a public show of pushing back to China, he's not the first President to actually do so. All Presidents have done so, you're just too stupid to understand anything that has any subtlety to it.

[Rougarou 594]

And maybe we've all heard of a little algorithm company packaged and sold as a teenagers app called TiKTok?

China's abilities and influence is only growing; rumors of their technology abilities sucking are exaggerated in my opinion and I see them as a clear and present danger.

And yea, politically and personally and emotionally, I'm inclined to want a pound of flesh and have them pay and see punitive response to Covid-19's rise from wet markets (especially since wet markets are back already). I see zero issue in laying Covid-19 at the feet of China and/or calling this the Chinese flu and think there should be damages, whether sued for peace civilly or through diplomatic aggression or war.

So I'm happy to see they are kicked out of Houston and let's lock in and see where we can take this, in a smart and pragmatic way (which, the bold, may be asking too much in 2020. But we have to do something.)

Edited July 22, 2020 by Rougarou

[wildcat09 29,376]

5 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

And maybe we've all heard of a little algorithm company packaged and sold as a teenagers app called TiKTok?

China's abilities and influence is only growing; rumors of their technology abilities sucking are exaggerated in my opinion and I see them as a clear and present danger.

And yea, politically and personally and emotionally, I'm inclined to want a pound of flesh and have them pay and see punitive response to Covid-19's rise from wet markets (especially since wet markets are back already). I see zero issue in laying Covid-19 at the feet of China and/or calling this the Chinese flu and think there should be damages, whether sued for peace civilly or through diplomatic aggression or war.

So I'm happy to see they are kicked out of Houston and let's lock in and see where we can take this, in a smart and pragmatic way (which, the bold, may be asking too much in 2020. But we have to do something.)

At this point, us actually trying to sanction China for covid would look incredibly stupid to the world. We've clearly fucked it up far worse and lied about it far longer than China did. And after they fucked up at the beginning, China was smart and sent a bunch of doctors and aid to Italy to help. We sent some ventilators to Russia and I'm not sure if we bothered offering aid to anyone else. Any attempt on our part to sanction China over covid is going to look ridiculous.

Actually effectively sanctioning China for shit requires that our complaints appear legitimate so we can get cooperation from the rest of the world. We simply can't do that right now about covid, or pretty much anything else, and won't be able to do so for a long while, even if Biden is elected. Nobody is going to trust us until we can show the world that we're capable of electing emotionally and intellectually competent adults consistently, at the very fucking least.

[Rougarou 594]

22 minutes ago, Captainant said:

If we hadn't handled COVID just as poorly has china had, he may well have a point. But we're getting dunked on by the virus

Getting dunked on by a virus exported from China, ergo, dunked on by a virus with an alley-oop and assist in the box-score from China while America tripped over it's shoelaces trying to play defense.

My position is and always has been China is absolutely complicit in COVID-19 and there should be punishment. To what degree they are complicit and to what punishment looks like, I think should be discussed in a healthy and open debate and think reasonable minds can find a reasonable toll to exact.

[Rougarou 594]

1 minute ago, wildcat09 said:

At this point, us actually trying to sanction China for covid would look incredibly stupid to the world. We've clearly fucked it up far worse and lied about it far longer than China did. And after they fucked up at the beginning, China was smart and sent a bunch of doctors and aid to Italy to help. We sent some ventilators to Russia and I'm not sure if we bothered offering aid to anyone else. Any attempt on our part to sanction China over covid is going to look ridiculous.

Actually effectively sanctioning China for shit requires that our complaints appear legitimate so we can get cooperation from the rest of the world. We simply can't do that right now about covid, or pretty much anything else, and won't be able to do so for a long while, even if Biden is elected. Nobody is going to trust us until we can show the world that we're capable of electing emotionally and intellectually competent adults consistently, at the very fucking least.

I disagree. Especially if there is the evidence of a complete lack of remorse evidenced by the re-opening of wet markets in the middle of a global pandemic, which was created by the existence of wet-markets. It's the exact type of insubordination that comes when you know there is nothing anyone can or will do about it. We need to do something about it, and even to your point, if it is symbolic or toothless in nature, it's something. It's a gesture and it's a start. That's why I was excited to hear we are kicking China out of Houston, for now. Let's see.

[SydneyCarton 48,150]

5 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

Getting dunked on by a virus exported from China, ergo, dunked on by a virus with an alley-oop and assist in the box-score from China while America tripped over it's shoelaces trying to play defense.

My position is and always has been China is absolutely complicit in COVID-19 and there should be punishment. To what degree they are complicit and to what punishment looks like, I think should be discussed in a healthy and open debate and think reasonable minds can find a reasonable toll to exact.

Aaaaand you lost it right there. 

[wildcat09 29,376]

1 minute ago, Rougarou said:

I disagree. Especially if there is the evidence of a complete lack of remorse evidenced by the re-opening of wet markets in the middle of a global pandemic, which was created by the existence of wet-markets. It's the exact type of insubordination that comes when you know there is nothing anyone can or will do about it. We need to do something about it, and even to your point, if it is symbolic or toothless in nature, it's something. It's a gesture and it's a start. That's why I was excited to hear we are kicking China out of Houston, for now. Let's see.

I just don't attribute much value to little shit like that while destroying our actual capacity to do anything significant. Piddly shit like kicking them out of their consulate in Houston appeals to people like Onboard that are too dumb to actually comprehend international diplomacy. Which, fine, in a vacuum it's not really harmful to our interests to do so, but it doesn't make up for destroying our international alliances, fucking up the trade deal that was intended to isolate China, or our President clearly subordinating our interests to his own when he begs China to help him get re-elected.

Trump and the GOP are constantly destroying our ability to effectively push back against further Chinese international expansion and aggression and covering their destruction up with some made-for-tv piddly bullshit that doesn't matter but appeals to racist idiots who can't see the big picture. That's all they ever do. The entire fucking Trump era has been one Potemkin village performance after another to distract just enough Americans from the fact that they've stolen the country and are stripping it down for parts to fence.

[crash_davis 23,114]

The US created China. More specifically American CEOs and American consumers created China. What China offered was a billion people who are willing to work long hours in shitty conditions for shitty wages. That was their competitive advantage in the supply chain. In our zeal to increase profit margins (CEOs) and to buy the cheapest shit (consumers), we created the labor demand in China. China didn't become the bogeyman in a vacuum. CEOs signed or gave away IP, willingly and unwillingly but with full knowledge. In return we road a roaring stock market which contributed to our wealth and got to buy 5 55"+ TVs for our houses for $3000.

International companies are finally moving production from China to other countries but too little way too late. We already unleashed the genie from the bottle. 

Trump is going to put more pressure on China to change the Covid narrative from "I fucked up" to "It's China's fault". Funny how he turns a complete blind eye to Russia.

 

[Rougarou 594]

5 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I just don't attribute much value to little shit like that while destroying our actual capacity to do anything significant. Piddly shit like kicking them out of their consulate in Houston appeals to people like Onboard that are too dumb to actually comprehend international diplomacy. Which, fine, in a vacuum it's not really harmful to our interests to do so, but it doesn't make up for destroying our international alliances, fucking up the trade deal that was intended to isolate China, or our President clearly subordinating our interests to his own when he begs China to help him get re-elected.

Trump and the GOP are constantly destroying our ability to effectively push back against further Chinese international expansion and aggression and covering their destruction up with some made-for-tv piddly bullshit that doesn't matter but appeals to racist idiots who can't see the big picture. That's all they ever do. The entire fucking Trump era has been one Potemkin village performance after another to distract just enough Americans from the fact that they've stolen the country and are stripping it down for parts to fence.

You won't find much argument from me that Trump has negatively impacted our ability to gather around with our European peers and hold our nose and pretend to have the high moral ground when it comes to much to do with China.

As stated above, though, "It is tempting to blame the tension between the two countries on Trump, but the truth is that China, particularly under Xi Jinping, has been significantly hardening its rhetoric and actions since before Trump was elected, and has been committed to not just catching but surpassing the U.S. in technology for years. There is a fundamental clash of values between the West and China, and it is clear that China is interested in exporting theirs."

The China situation is bigger than Trump. It's going to outlast and outlive Trump's presidency. Trump is a speck of dust on a gnat's butt, compared to the China problem in the macro, is my position. That's why regardless of the leader, the tact, skill or polish in execution, we must do things now. Like with planting a tree, the best time to deal with the China problem was 10 years ago. The second best time is today.

[Sbbruin 21,866]

48 minutes ago, Tom said:

What I love about wish is that it takes so long to ship that by the time it arrives, you forgot you ordered it and it's like a surprise present you've purchased for yourself.

That has happened to me numerous times.  I just got something that I must have ordered 6 months ago.

[Rougarou 594]

7 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

The US created China. More specifically American CEOs and American consumers created China. What China offered was a billion people who are willing to work long hours in shitty conditions for shitty wages. That was their competitive advantage in the supply chain. In our zeal to increase profit margins (CEOs) and to buy the cheapest shit (consumers), we created the labor demand in China. China didn't become the bogeyman in a vacuum. CEOs signed or gave away IP, willingly and unwillingly but with full knowledge. In return we road a roaring stock market which contributed to our wealth and got to buy 5 55"+ TVs for our houses for $3000.

International companies are finally moving production from China to other countries but too little way too late. We already unleashed the genie from the bottle. 

Trump is going to put more pressure on China to change the Covid narrative from "I fucked up" to "It's China's fault". Funny how he turns a complete blind eye to Russia.

 

This is all true and right. We can't get in a time machine and change it, so let's do what we can to fix it, right?

The only problem I have is with your last statement. The narrative should have been "it's China's fault" from the jump. It's the literal origin story of the virus. It's China's fault that covid-19 exists and spread. That is a fact.

Now, you can't put the complete and full impact and deaths directly on China because we as a country were also complicit in our idiocy (up to and including Trump), but that doesn't mean that aggression, in some form or another, to China should not be brought to bear. Maybe even just whatever the diplomatic equivalent of a hard slap to the back of the head. I mean, at least a rolled up newspaper and quick smack on the nose! 

Anyways, China sucks.

Edited July 22, 2020 by Rougarou

[F250 28,814]

58 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

TRIMP TRUMP TRUMP !!!!! You're a one trump pony.  This issue has been building thru multiple admins both democrat, and republican.  

Trump is the first president to actually push back on the Chinese.  They're no better than the Soviet Union (worse in many ways).  It took a republican then to create the final vacuum that sealed their fate.

China's international influence has greatly expanded under the Trump administration. Trump and his supporters are idiots that never bothered to read a book beyond the required Huckleberry Finn in 6th grade so they confuse "Loud Noises" with strategy. China's global footprint is expanding without being put in check by the Western Liberal Democracies (the good guys) because the head of the alliance likes to make loud noises and doesn't understand the importance of the alliance and leveraging global institutions like the WTO, WHO, UN, G7, etc...

I'll try to put into terms you might understand. Reagan never told NATO "go fuck yourselves San Diego" during the Cold War. The Soviets were contained through an international alliance of Western Liberal Democracies. Reagan did make loud noises while simultaneously engaging the Soviets, Trump just makes loud noises from the shitter.

[gsoda3 3,281]

5 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

That has happened to me numerous times.  I just got something that I must have ordered 6 months ago.

a preemie?

[Biff Tannen 45,712]

9 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

You won't find much argument from me that Trump has negatively impacted our ability to gather around with our European peers and hold our nose and pretend to have the high moral ground when it comes to much to do with China.

As stated above, though, "It is tempting to blame the tension between the two countries on Trump, but the truth is that China, particularly under Xi Jinping, has been significantly hardening its rhetoric and actions since before Trump was elected, and has been committed to not just catching but surpassing the U.S. in technology for years. There is a fundamental clash of values between the West and China, and it is clear that China is interested in exporting theirs."

The China situation is bigger than Trump. It's going to outlast and outlive Trump's presidency. Trump is a speck of dust on a gnat's butt, compared to the China problem in the macro, is my position. That's why regardless of the leader, the tact, skill or polish in execution, we must do things now. Like with planting a tree, the best time to deal with the China problem was 10 years ago. The second best time is today.

I agree with this take, except that Trump and his cronies don't actually know how to deal with China, so anything they do will most likely hurt us even more.  For god's sake, look at his 4 years of tariffs that China has just smiled at, while we pay the price.  They play a really long game.  Trump can't think past today.

[Tom 2,959]

5 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

That has happened to me numerous times.  I just got something that I must have ordered 6 months ago.

 

It really is a crapshoot.  I ordered four things at the end of June.  The first item arrived in a week.  It was probably already in the U.S.  Second item took two weeks.  The last two show an estimated delivery date of September 29th or something ridiculous.

But at least it's cheap!

[crash_davis 23,114]

China and the USA are more tied to the hip that most can imagine. Our economy is predicated on consumer spending (facilitated by exploding debt which is for another conversation). Consumer spending is predicated on cheap shit. I'd argue that we couldn't have had the economic growth we had in the last few decades without China supplying us with low cost goods.

If you want to see what happens when people stop buying goods, look no further than what's happening with Covid. Pay no mind to the stock market as that's not based on any fucking reality. Layoffs and business closings because people are out of jobs and/or not spending worried about long term financial health. People with money are paying down their debt (CC debt) and sitting on cash. If this is the new normal, then expect GDP and earnings to shrink going forward. Austerity means slower growth (also another discussion).

Companies should and are moving manufacturing and assembly to India, Vietnam and other places. But make no mistake, those countries and companies too will steal IP. As a country and company, you'd be stupid not to.

[Rougarou 594]

2 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

I agree with this take, except that Trump and his cronies don't actually know how to deal with China, so anything they do will most likely hurt us even more.  For god's sake, look at his 4 years of tariffs that China has just smiled at, while we pay the price.  They play a really long game.  Trump can't think past today.

I mean, you aren't wrong. This is why history is written by those who can solve big problems, I guess. But I guarantee you that the brightest minds in technology, and specifically USA/Silicon Valley, are paying attention and seeing China as a threat-- maybe those brilliant (and morally flexible, cut-throat) people can figure something out for the heartland.