Formula 1 2021

[utee94 15745]

21 hours ago, wood said:

I can't give a good answer to that, but the Sky guys were wondering if the right axle broke in the collision.

Yeah as soon as I saw the wreck I had the same thought, that the right rear axle must have broken, and it was a VERY lucky thing it did.

 

 

[wood 11121]

Saudi Arabian group eyes F1 takeover? https://www.grandprix.com/news/saudi-arabian-group-eyes-f1-takeover.html#.YUACWgfCRME.twitter

Roger Benoit says it will happen soon...

[ConferenceRoom 6127]

I would think there would be more smoke coming from this by now. The tone of Benoit's quotes feels like a massive agenda. 

[Noozak 323]

I don't get this line: "The Americans seem to have lost interest in their multi-billion dollar toy." Formula 1 is exploding in the American market. Viewership is up almost 50% and ESPN is promoting races and stories pretty heavily. Seems like an odd take unless he is referring to Liberty not spending time and money to grow the sport in Asia.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Noozak
grammar

[Updawg 2261]

Sounds like he is talking about liberty

[Burt Macklin 18996]

Watching live, I thought the Lewis-Max crash was a racing incident, but after seeing some different angles, I agree Max was at fault and possibly might've deserved more of a penalty, though it won't matter because he'll likely just take his engine penalty next race anyways now.  

Part of the reason I think Max was at fault is because he had no chance of making T2 even if his car didn't flukily jump on top of Hamilton.  He carried a ton of speed into T1 and T2 just to get near side-by-side with Lewis and between the speed and the angle of his trajectory he had no chance of making T2 with Lewis alongside him on the outside. He'd either have to slam the brakes and lose all momentum (no chance Max ever does this), or he would've taken Lewis out at T2 if he tries to keep fighting for P3.  I actually think the crash would've looked much more like Senna-Prost if it played out that way.  

Between Max being furious about the pit stop and knowing Lewis probably gaps him by 5-10 points if Lewis comes out of T2 ahead, I think Max made a strategic decisions to yolo it into that chicane knowing he either keeps his spot or crashes them out, which would be a win for Max.

[UTHornFan014 710]

Watching live, I thought the Lewis-Max crash was a racing incident, but after seeing some different angles, I agree Max was at fault and possibly might've deserved more of a penalty, though it won't matter because he'll likely just take his engine penalty next race anyways now.  
Part of the reason I think Max was at fault is because he had no chance of making T2 even if his car didn't flukily jump on top of Hamilton.  He carried a ton of speed into T1 and T2 just to get near side-by-side with Lewis and between the speed and the angle of his trajectory he had no chance of making T2 with Lewis alongside him on the outside. He'd either have to slam the brakes and lose all momentum (no chance Max ever does this), or he would've taken Lewis out at T2 if he tries to keep fighting for P3.  I actually think the crash would've looked much more like Senna-Prost if it played out that way.  
Between Max being furious about the pit stop and knowing Lewis probably gaps him by 5-10 points if Lewis comes out of T2 ahead, I think Max made a strategic decisions to yolo it into that chicane knowing he either keeps his spot or crashes them out, which would be a win for Max.

Yep, This is where I'm at (as a Hamilton hater)

[Anton Chigurh 3318]

Watching live, I thought the Lewis-Max crash was a racing incident, but after seeing some different angles, I agree Max was at fault and possibly might've deserved more of a penalty, though it won't matter because he'll likely just take his engine penalty next race anyways now.  
Part of the reason I think Max was at fault is because he had no chance of making T2 even if his car didn't flukily jump on top of Hamilton.  He carried a ton of speed into T1 and T2 just to get near side-by-side with Lewis and between the speed and the angle of his trajectory he had no chance of making T2 with Lewis alongside him on the outside. He'd either have to slam the brakes and lose all momentum (no chance Max ever does this), or he would've taken Lewis out at T2 if he tries to keep fighting for P3.  I actually think the crash would've looked much more like Senna-Prost if it played out that way.  
Between Max being furious about the pit stop and knowing Lewis probably gaps him by 5-10 points if Lewis comes out of T2 ahead, I think Max made a strategic decisions to yolo it into that chicane knowing he either keeps his spot or crashes them out, which would be a win for Max.

Yep, all of this.

[wood 11121]

2 hours ago, Burt Macklin said:

Watching live, I thought the Lewis-Max crash was a racing incident, but after seeing some different angles, I agree Max was at fault and possibly might've deserved more of a penalty, though it won't matter because he'll likely just take his engine penalty next race anyways now.  

Part of the reason I think Max was at fault is because he had no chance of making T2 even if his car didn't flukily jump on top of Hamilton.  He carried a ton of speed into T1 and T2 just to get near side-by-side with Lewis and between the speed and the angle of his trajectory he had no chance of making T2 with Lewis alongside him on the outside. He'd either have to slam the brakes and lose all momentum (no chance Max ever does this), or he would've taken Lewis out at T2 if he tries to keep fighting for P3.  I actually think the crash would've looked much more like Senna-Prost if it played out that way.  

Between Max being furious about the pit stop and knowing Lewis probably gaps him by 5-10 points if Lewis comes out of T2 ahead, I think Max made a strategic decisions to yolo it into that chicane knowing he either keeps his spot or crashes them out, which would be a win for Max.

If you brake late but still negotiate the turn on-track, and are alongside, then you are entitled to space. I think you can't penalize him more harshly based on unknowns. He was still on track in the middle of the chicane (and by rule deserved space). We don't know if he'd have made T2, because even though Max still had two wheels on the track, we don't know how much of him being wide was down to extra speed and how much was down to Lewis pushing him there.  I think Max was going to lose that battle coming out of 2, either way, but there was nothing wrong with him trying the move & he shouldn't be penalized for it. We've seen guys make similar moves before, pulling them off by the skin of their teeth. Then people talked about what great moves they were. Danny Ric comes to mind...and Lewis, and others. When Lewis was young, we heard a lot of the same kinds of things when a particularly bold move of his didn't stick, but when they did stick, he was praised for a great move, as he should be.

They both deserved penalties, but for not leaving space (Lewis on L1T4, Max at T1). Had Max gone into 2 too hot and run Lewis off on exit, he'd have deserved a penalty for that as well.  

What we know is that Max braked late but was negotiating the turn on the track & Lewis was right next to him. 

Penalizing Max for this move will have a chilling effect on overtaking in general, which imho is not what we want. They need to be penalizing people for running people off the track on exit by sheer force. This would encourage overtaking and prolong battles to more than just one turn. Had Max given Lewis space in turn 4 yesterday we may have had some side by side action into the Lesmos as both would have had compromised exits from the chicane. We could have had the same if Lewis was forced to give Max more space when they collided. This nonsense of running people off ruins good battles.

 

Edited September 14, 2021 by wood

[wood 11121]

BTW, cool video:

 

[52-80 19081]

51 minutes ago, wood said:

We've seen guys make similar moves before, pulling them off by the skin of their teeth.... Danny Ric comes to mind...and Lewis, and others.

Ricciardo is known as an exciting, aggressive, dive-bomber...yet doesn't seem to be embroiled in as many controversial crashes as Verstappen.

"I just think it's funny how..." Verstappen is always involved in them, and it's always because the other driver didn't leave space.

[VABuckeye 2472]

55 minutes ago, wood said:

BTW, cool video:

 

Nice extended Tag Heuer ad there on the Red Bull car at the end of the video.

[VABuckeye 2472]

2 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Ricciardo is known as an exciting, aggressive, dive-bomber...yet doesn't seem to be embroiled in as many controversial crashes as Verstappen.

"I just think it's funny how..." Verstappen is always involved in them, and it's always because the other driver didn't leave space.

Yep.  Like Lando's start.  Everyone talking about his cojones and that he "drove on the grass" to get by Hamilton.  I like Lando a lot and racing is racing but his was also a dangerous move.  It should apply to all drivers equally.

It's yet another good argument for full-time stewards and not volunteers with a different agenda at every race.

While I'm on a rant.  BRING BACK GRID GIRLS!!!!!!!

[Burt Macklin 18996]

Jolyon Palmer with some pretty good analysis of the crash

 

 

[ConferenceRoom 6127]

1 hour ago, VABuckeye said:

Yep.  Like Lando's start.  Everyone talking about his cojones and that he "drove on the grass" to get by Hamilton.  I like Lando a lot and racing is racing but his was also a dangerous move.  

Are you talking about the sprint start? How on earth did you come to this conclusion? 

 

[wood 11121]

1 hour ago, Burt Macklin said:

Jolyon Palmer with some pretty good analysis of the crash

 

 

Yep. Good analysis, and I agree with him that it's a racing incident. He also said that if Max had been farther alongside, he'd have earned more space, which isn't really correct. Max was well more than halfway alongside Lewis & was easily visible to Lewis. That's much more than he needed to 'earn space'. I also thought it was interesting when he broke down the GIO/LEC battle at the same turn. LEC gave GIO slightly more room, and they both made it through & came out pretty much even on exit. That's what I think would probably have happened had Lewis been able to give more room, & Lewis probably would have pulled ahead. Of course, GIO & LEC entered a little slower, which helped. I think both Max and Lewis outbraked themselves side by side and were probably both a little deeper there than they wanted to be. 

[Atxracer 797]

3 hours ago, wood said:

If you brake late but still negotiate the turn on-track, and are alongside, then you are entitled to space.

Just for discussion, I feel this is true but it depends on what "alongside" means.  Does it mean a nose, halfway, wheel-to-wheel?  It depends on the circumstances. Here is a good write up (I didn't bother to read that actual regs):  https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/

Most relevant part here is:

"The guiding principle is that the driver on the outside should be at least level (front axle in line with front axle) with the driver on the inside to have a claim to the racing line on corner exit. Depending on the type of corner and the cars involved, either the outside or inside line may be quicker through the corner, meaning the driver on the outside may gain or lose ground from corner entry to corner exit. It is relative positions of the cars at exit — not at entry or apex — that is therefore crucial in judging these cases.

 

If the driver on the inside is behind at corner exit, they must leave space for the driver on the outside.

If the driver on the inside is ahead at corner exit, it is the duty of the driver on the outside to back out or take evasive action to avoid a collision."

 

At no point was Verstappen level with Hamilton in that corner.  So, the late brake was cool and all. But, when it failed, he should have bailed left.  

 

Edited September 14, 2021 by Atxracer

[ChickenSandwich 9798]

I guess it is of no consequence, but no one mentions Lewis darting across the track from the pit lane in a desperate attempt to stay in front of Max. He comes straight across the white line forcing max further out. 

Edited September 14, 2021 by ChickenSandwich

[Atxracer 797]

5 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

I guess it is of no consequence, but no one mentions Lewis darting across the track from the pit lane in a desperate attempt to stay in front of Max. He comes straight across the white line forcing max further out. 

I didn't see him dart across until after the blend line. Had he crossed that blend line, he certainly would have received a penalty.  

[ChickenSandwich 9798]

It was definitely after the line. Just a drastic move in a small space that started it all. 

[pops 6973]

On 9/12/2021 at 8:41 PM, wood said:

I can't give a good answer to that, but the Sky guys were wondering if the right axle broke in the collision.

I was thinking the same thing. No way they have a limited slip, right?  If that tire was spinning we would have seen a decapitation. 

[Mach 1 1676]

2 hours ago, ConferenceRoom said:

Are you talking about the sprint start? How on earth did you come to this conclusion? 

 

I think he means when he passed Leclerc.  Saw that as another example of him going balls out to catch his teammate. If Danny continues doing well I think we should expect more dangerous/aggressive overtaking from him in the future, and possible some carnage.

[ConferenceRoom 6127]

I think he means when he passed Leclerc.  Saw that as another example of him going balls out to catch his teammate. If Danny continues doing well I think we should expect more dangerous/aggressive overtaking from him in the future, and possible some carnage.

Aggressive, absolutely, and it was necessary. Dangerous? Not even close.

[Mach 1 1676]

2 minutes ago, ConferenceRoom said:

Aggressive, absolutely, and it was necessary. Dangerous? Not even close.

I'm not saying that move was dangerous per se, but that I expect them from him in the future.  That said I was interested in opinions here on that pass - he did go on the grass/dirt for a bit.  Is that considered a worthy risk in F1?

[ConferenceRoom 6127]

It happens at Monza, especially on the straight. If the grass is dry it’s not much of a risk.

[elguapo 4583]

Max and Perez both pulled the move of braking too late to get alongside the car ahead and then blaming the car ahead for not leaving any room to excuse their actions, seems like a pattern. When LeClerc pulled the same move he gave up the place he gained immediately.

Also Max driving his car on top of Lewis head, telling the radio “that’s what you get for not leaving room”, then walking by Lewis car without checking on him is a total bitch move.

Edited September 15, 2021 by elguapo

[wood 11121]

6 hours ago, Atxracer said:

Just for discussion, I feel this is true but it depends on what "alongside" means.  Does it mean a nose, halfway, wheel-to-wheel?  It depends on the circumstances. Here is a good write up (I didn't bother to read that actual regs):  https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/

Most relevant part here is:

"The guiding principle is that the driver on the outside should be at least level (front axle in line with front axle) with the driver on the inside to have a claim to the racing line on corner exit. Depending on the type of corner and the cars involved, either the outside or inside line may be quicker through the corner, meaning the driver on the outside may gain or lose ground from corner entry to corner exit. It is relative positions of the cars at exit — not at entry or apex — that is therefore crucial in judging these cases.

 

If the driver on the inside is behind at corner exit, they must leave space for the driver on the outside.

If the driver on the inside is ahead at corner exit, it is the duty of the driver on the outside to back out or take evasive action to avoid a collision."

 

At no point was Verstappen level with Hamilton in that corner.  So, the late brake was cool and all. But, when it failed, he should have bailed left.  

 

I just stumbled onto this 7 year old quote from Lewis. According to him and what I've heard numerous times from F1 drivers, you don't need to be level to deserve space. You need to be halfway alongside:

Quote

 “We know – and you can ask Fernando [Alonso], you can ask all drivers – when a car is less than half a car length alongside you and you’re on the inside, it’s your racing line. It’s not your job to go massively out your way to leave extra, extra room.

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12472/9438433

This seems like a pretty relevant quote from Lewis, given that Max was more than halfway alongside him.

Then there's this, in the Sporting Regs:

Quote

manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited. Any driver who appears guilty of any of the above offences will be reported to the Stewards."

 

Edited September 15, 2021 by wood

[wood 11121]

4 hours ago, pops said:

I was thinking the same thing. No way they have a limited slip, right?  If that tire was spinning we would have seen a decapitation. 

Yeah pretty sure it woulda been awful.

[wood 11121]

4 hours ago, Mach 1 said:

I'm not saying that move was dangerous per se, but that I expect them from him in the future.  That said I was interested in opinions here on that pass - he did go on the grass/dirt for a bit.  Is that considered a worthy risk in F1?

It's not optimal, but it happens. I'm sure he didn't want his tires on the grass/dirt in that traction zone in the middle of a battle.

[Atxracer 797]

8 hours ago, wood said:

 “We know – and you can ask Fernando [Alonso], you can ask all drivers – when a car is less than half a car length alongside you and you’re on the inside, it’s your racing line. It’s not your job to go massively out your way to leave extra, extra room.

lol, of course he said that since it benefitted him that day.  If you ask him the same question about Sunday, he would most likely change his tune and say Verstappen wasn't level with him (I never said he wasn't a whiny self-serving baby) so it was his line and he should have backed off (actually that is pretty much what they argued to the stewards). Good thing drivers aren't stewards.  I would imagine the regs address all these scenarios but think the link above is a good summary of them.  

[faps 806]

Just like the Silverstone incident, I think if the roles were reversed Max would've done exactly what Lewis did.

I have my popcorn ready for the rest of the year though. Surely these guys will have another "racing incident" in the races to come.

[52-80 19081]

13 minutes ago, faps said:

Just like the Silverstone incident, I think if the roles were reversed Max would've done exactly what Lewis did.

Which isn't saying much, because Lewis wouldn't have slotted himself in there.  From memory Lewis had an egregious shunt with Albon for which he apologized.  Then the majority of his accidents were slapfights vs Nico where the blame were 50/50.  He seems to have learned from that, and drives in a way that is defensive, whether battling Bottas or someone outside the team.

Max shoehorns himself in a place where the other driver has to (a) yield or (b) crash.  Most opt not to crash because they don't have the leash and coddling that he enjoys from Redbull.  (Listen to the Stroll radios and imagine if Max drove for Aston Martin...).  You can't say that that's the only way to get ahead, because Ricciardo, Norris, Alonso, etc, all have shown you can be competitive in racecraft (given the car) without forcing others into a game of chicken.

[Kdub 498]

Max has the Senna mentality, he's gonna go for the gap, and make the other driver decide what happens

[Atxracer 797]

11 minutes ago, Kdub said:

Max has the Senna mentality, he's gonna go for the gap, and make the other driver decide what happens

Totally agreed.  IMO, Verstappen and Hamilton have two different driving styles.  All things equal, both work and are fast but Max's usually wins and crashes more often.  If you ain't first, you're last.  

That said, I do think Max is the quicker driver.  The rain races kinda prove that for me.  

[NoName 16291]

43 minutes ago, Atxracer said:

Totally agreed.  IMO, Verstappen and Hamilton have two different driving styles.  All things equal, both work and are fast but Max's usually wins and crashes more often.  If you ain't first, you're last.  

That said, I do think Max is the quicker driver.  The rain races kinda prove that for me.  

damn. looking at DNF stats for their careers

Max: 29 DNF in 133 F1 starts = 21.8% DNF rate

Lewis: 27 DNF in 280 F1 starts = 9.6% DNF rate

holy shit! in the last 5 years, Lewis has a total of 2 DNFs. Max has 3 this year alone and 21 over the same timeframe.

 

[texas08 1599]

Will watch tonight

[52-80 19081]

1 hour ago, Kdub said:

Max has the Senna mentality, he's gonna go for the gap, and make the other driver decide what happens

I watched neither Senna nor Schumacher while they racing, but from what I read and understand, they both pull lots of stunts like this.  I guess in context of history it gets them all the accolades anyway ("championships solve everything").  But admirable, gentlemen racers they are not.

[wood 11121]

2 hours ago, Atxracer said:

lol, of course he said that since it benefitted him that day.  If you ask him the same question about Sunday, he would most likely change his tune and say Verstappen wasn't level with him (I never said he wasn't a whiny self-serving baby) so it was his line and he should have backed off (actually that is pretty much what they argued to the stewards). Good thing drivers aren't stewards.  I would imagine the regs address all these scenarios but think the link above is a good summary of them.  

I never said Lewis should have 'backed off'. I said he should have allowed space. Big difference. It's very likely imho that Lewis would have come out ahead anyway had he allowed space.

So you're saying Lewis will say anything to justify his position? It's possible Lewis has changed this stance or changes his stance like the wind blows, saying whatever best suits him ... but from everything I've heard and read over the years, this is the prevailing sentiment in the paddock.

If you haven't heard that before, from more than just Lewis, then it seems like you haven't watched much F1. That comment shows the mindset of drivers such as Lewis and likely most (if not all) of the drivers re: the standard for being alongside. Half-way or more. Then you need to leave a car width to the line.

It should have applied to T4 in Lewis's favor, but it didn't --- just as it also should have applied to T1 in Max's favor, but it didn't.  Sometimes it's penalized, but most often it isn't, despite the rule clearly stating that running people off track is strictly prohibited. It's just weird. I'm not trying to cast blame on Lewis. I'm looking at the rules that say you can't run people off the track, and wondering why they are rarely and inconsistently being enforced on any of the drivers.

The problems we're seeing here are being caused by drivers forcing people off on exit, not so much by people trying overly-optimistic moves. The move Max tried can be done when even a tiny bit more space is given, as we've already seen. Same with Lewis's move on L1.

Forcing people off on exit is discouraging overtaking and preventing longer battles across multiple turns. It seems like everyone would like to see more, better, longer overtaking battles, not less. But maybe that's just me..

[wood 11121]

41 minutes ago, NoName said:

damn. looking at DNF stats for their careers

Max: 29 DNF in 133 F1 starts = 21.8% DNF rate

Lewis: 27 DNF in 280 F1 starts = 9.6% DNF rate

holy shit! in the last 5 years, Lewis has a total of 2 DNFs. Max has 3 this year alone and 21 over the same timeframe.

That's largely not going to be down to driving though, and his previous two dnfs were from being taken out by Merc through no fault of his own. Lewis had his first dnf Sunday since 2018. Think about that for a second. The bulletproof reliability of the car & PU he's driving contributes heavily to the lack of dnfs compared to the Renault and Honda-powered RBRs. He's also been driving out front for 8 years, mostly in the fastest car, starting from the front row. That's not to  take anything away from Lewis, who's doing what he needs to do. But it makes a huge difference. 

[G650 14086]

46 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

I watched neither Senna nor Schumacher while they racing, but from what I read and understand, they both pull lots of stunts like this.  I guess in context of history it gets them all the accolades anyway ("championships solve everything").  But admirable, gentlemen racers they are not.

Eh, I watched a lot of Schumi's racing. He was always do fucking far ahead of everyone except Barrichello that I don't really recall much from him.

[Kdub 498]

5 minutes ago, G650 said:

Eh, I watched a lot of Schumi's racing. He was always do fucking far ahead of everyone except Barrichello that I don't really recall much from him.

97 Euro GP banging into Villeneuve as he was getting passed. That stunt by Schumacher got him DQd from the Drivers Championship 

[G650 14086]

Just now, Kdub said:

97 Euro GP banging into Villeneuve as he was getting passed. That stunt by Schumacher got him DQd from the Drivers Championship 

Yeah I'm not saying it never happened, but there were just years that would pass where he wasn't around anyone.

[wood 11121]

16 minutes ago, Kdub said:

97 Euro GP banging into Villeneuve as he was getting passed. That stunt by Schumacher got him DQd from the Drivers Championship 

And remember when he basically tried to kill Rubens at 200 mph?

[Kdub 498]

40 minutes ago, G650 said:

Yeah I'm not saying it never happened, but there were just years that would pass where he wasn't around anyone.

That Ferrari from 2000-04 was a beast

[G650 14086]

11 minutes ago, Kdub said:

That Ferrari from 2000-04 was a beast

It was the most ridiculous thing I've seen in F1. People who gripe about Mercedes crack me up a bit. Merc had a couple years with the onset of the current power unit that they really strolled, but they still saw some competition, like in 18. Ferrari of the early oughts was just checked the fucked out.

[Kdub 498]

Was it 04, Ferrari won like 16 of 17 races and like 13 poles...it was ridiculous 

[NoName 16291]

1 hour ago, wood said:

That's largely not going to be down to driving though, and his previous two dnfs were from being taken out by Merc through no fault of his own. Lewis had his first dnf Sunday since 2018. Think about that for a second. The bulletproof reliability of the car & PU he's driving contributes heavily to the lack of dnfs compared to the Renault and Honda-powered RBRs. He's also been driving out front for 8 years, mostly in the fastest car, starting from the front row. That's not to  take anything away from Lewis, who's doing what he needs to do. But it makes a huge difference. 

not disagreeing with you on anything you said, but 2x as many DNFs is still high. 2 DNFs in 5 years is impressive no matter who you are, what care you are in, etc.

(and I say this as someone who is way more of a Max fan than a Lewis fan)

[wood 11121]

1 hour ago, Kdub said:

That Ferrari from 2000-04 was a beast

 

1 hour ago, G650 said:

It was the most ridiculous thing I've seen in F1. People who gripe about Mercedes crack me up a bit. Merc had a couple years with the onset of the current power unit that they really strolled, but they still saw some competition, like in 18. Ferrari of the early oughts was just checked the fucked out.

Eh, I dunno, man. Yeah Ferrari's 5 years from 2000-2004 were amazing, but Merc's 7 year span has been even more amazing imho. 

 

Ferrari 2000-2004:

57 wins in 85 GPs. 67%. Drivers on podium 69% of the time.

 

Merc 2014-2020:

102 wins in 138 GPs. 74%. Drivers on podium 74% of the time. And Merc's podiums & wins dropped in the 4 years after Nico left.

 

1 hour ago, Kdub said:

Was it 04, Ferrari won like 16 of 17 races and like 13 poles...it was ridiculous 

Ferrari's best years were 2002 & 2004. In 2002 they won 15 of 17. In 2004 it was 15 of 18.

Merc bettered those 2 years over a three year stretch. From 2013 thru 2015, Merc won 51 of 59 races ( 16 of 19, 16 of 19, and 19 of 21). That's better than anything I know of. The win numbers took a hit in the Bottas era.

Edited September 15, 2021 by wood

[XYZ 2154]

At COTA which turn is the most likely that Max and Lewis will take each other out?

[wood 11121]

13 minutes ago, XYZ said:

At COTA which turn is the most likely that Max and Lewis will take each other out?

I'm thinking 1.