Formula 1 2021

[G650 14086]

2 hours ago, wood said:

 

Eh, I dunno, man. Yeah Ferrari's 5 years from 2000-2004 were amazing, but Merc's 7 year span has been even more amazing imho. 

 

Ferrari 2000-2004:

57 wins in 85 GPs. 67%. Drivers on podium 69% of the time.

 

Merc 2014-2020:

102 wins in 138 GPs. 74%. Drivers on podium 74% of the time. And Merc's podiums & wins dropped in the 4 years after Nico left.

 

Ferrari's best years were 2002 & 2004. In 2002 they won 15 of 17. In 2004 it was 15 of 18.

Merc bettered those 2 years over a three year stretch. From 2013 thru 2015, Merc won 51 of 59 races ( 16 of 19, 16 of 19, and 19 of 21). That's better than anything I know of. The win numbers took a hit in the Bottas era.

It wasn't just the win rate, the margins they won by were absurd. Merc isn't even close to what Ferrari had over that stretch.

 

Mercedes most dominant car vis a vis the competition was actually in 13 when the win rate was lower than 15 which illustrates what I'm saying.

[wood 11121]

3 minutes ago, G650 said:

It wasn't just the win rate, the margins they won by were absurd. Merc isn't even close to what Ferrari had over that stretch.

Mercedes most dominant car vis a vis the competition was actually in 13 when the win rate was lower than 15 which illustrates what I'm saying.

2013 was the last year of the old engine rules. They only won 3 races that year.  Maybe I'm misreading what you're saying here. I can't see any metric that would indicate the 2013 car was Merc's most dominant, or even dominant at all.

[Chewbacca 7729]

I'll just leave this here for the Max fans.  Max doing to Danny in the sprint exactly what Lewis did to him.  The difference is that Danny didn't decide to take them both out, he backed out so he could continue racing.  Max made the other choice.

 

 

[utee94 15745]

1 hour ago, wood said:

I'm thinking 1.

1 or 12, IMO

I hope it's 12, it'll be easy to see from my seats in the T15 grandstands!

[utee94 15745]

golderned double post

Edited September 15, 2021 by utee94

[Atxracer 797]

6 hours ago, wood said:

So you're saying Lewis will say anything to justify his position? It's possible Lewis has changed this stance or changes his stance like the wind blows, saying whatever best suits him ... but from everything I've heard and read over the years, this is the prevailing sentiment in the paddock.

 

I’m saying exactly that. If the situation were reversed he would be arguing Max should have left him room. Fairly certain any driver would do the same. 

[wood 11121]

50 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

I'll just leave this here for the Max fans.  Max doing to Danny in the sprint exactly what Lewis did to him.  The difference is that Danny didn't decide to take them both out, he backed out so he could continue racing.  Max made the other choice.

 

 

Not quite the same, but similar. Max left a lot more room than Lewis did, but still not enough (not a full car's width). But it's also lap 1, which gets judged by a different standard.

Again, for me, this isn't about Lewis or Max. It's about the lack of consistent enforcement of a rule that's important in encouraging overtaking.

[wood 11121]

Just now, Atxracer said:

I’m saying exactly that. If the situation were reversed he would be arguing Max should have left him room. Fairly certain any driver would do the same. 

OK, cool. But that's all just supposition. I haven't seen or heard of any time Lewis has been quoted contradicting that standard that we hear so often, but I'm all ears.

[Chewbacca 7729]

6 minutes ago, wood said:

Not quite the same, but similar. Max left a lot more room than Lewis did, but still not enough (not a full car's width). But it's also lap 1, which gets judged by a different standard.

Again, for me, this isn't about Lewis or Max. It's about the lack of consistent enforcement of a rule that's important in encouraging overtaking.

It's about as close to identical as you're likely to get.  Had Danny forced his way through T2 like Max did, he would have hit the sausage curb just like Max did.  

 

BTW, I lost count of how many times I heard the term 'sausage curb' on Sunday.

Edited September 15, 2021 by Chewbacca

[wood 11121]

18 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

It's about as close to identical as you're likely to get.  Had Danny forced his way through T2 like Max did, he would have hit the sausage curb just like Max did.  

I mean ... Max gave more room there than LEC did in the Palmer video, and LEC gave more room than Lewis did. It's an obvious difference. Still not enough room imho, but they're different.

[Chewbacca 7729]

7 minutes ago, wood said:

I mean ... Max gave more room there than LEC did in the Palmer video, and LEC gave more room than Lewis did. It's an obvious difference. Still not enough room imho, but they're different.

Of course they're different.  Even if Alex Albon spends a day trying to recreate it, it will be different.  But it's alike enough to make a point, which is all I'm doing.

[G650 14086]

1 hour ago, wood said:

2013 was the last year of the old engine rules. They only won 3 races that year.  Maybe I'm misreading what you're saying here. I can't see any metric that would indicate the 2013 car was Merc's most dominant, or even dominant at all.

Sorry I meant 14, mistyped.

 

The whole thing with Merc is they had a huge head start with the engine change. But the other makers caught up. The program is very professional and that's how they grind it out, not by overwhelming superiority.

Ferrari was just flat out better than everyone in every department in the early aughts. Insanely dominant. And I say that as an old Maclaren fan. I literally quit watching for like 5 years because it was so boring. I've been an F1 fan since the 80s and I have never seen anything like early 2000s Ferrari before or since.

[Atxracer 797]

46 minutes ago, wood said:

OK, cool. But that's all just supposition. I haven't seen or heard of any time Lewis has been quoted contradicting that standard that we hear so often, but I'm all ears.

Go read the stewards review posted previously. That was Mercedes argument in this instance.  Had the situation been reversed, they would have argued the same as Red Bull. It’s not rocket surgery. 
 

 

[Atxracer 797]

1 hour ago, wood said:

Again, for me, this isn't about Lewis or Max. It's about the lack of consistent enforcement of a rule that's important in encouraging overtaking.

Also, let’s be honest here. This penalty probably has more to do with the outcome than anything else. Had he re-entered and they just bumped and continued on, it’s very possible nothing would have happened (although I still believe this fell on Verstappen). But, he landed on top of Hamilton’s head.  I get your inconsistency argument but sometimes it’s subjective and it is what it is and they send messages.  Especially with this increasingly heated rivalry.  

[wood 11121]

1 hour ago, Chewbacca said:

Of course they're different.  Even if Alex Albon spends a day trying to recreate it, it will be different.  But it's alike enough to make a point, which is all I'm doing.

Well, yeah, but that small difference in the amount of space given is what differentiates it from being not enough space to enough space to make the turn. It's not a trivial difference, and that difference affects the outcome dramatically.

[wood 11121]

10 minutes ago, Atxracer said:

Also, let’s be honest here. This penalty probably has more to do with the outcome than anything else. Had he re-entered and they just bumped and continued on, it’s very possible nothing would have happened (although I still believe this fell on Verstappen). But, he landed on top of Hamilton’s head.  I get your inconsistency argument but sometimes it’s subjective and it is what it is and they send messages.  Especially with this increasingly heated rivalry.  

Totally agree this penalty was based largely on the severity of the outcome, and that's not the way penalties are supposed to be given in F1. It's supposed to be based on the infraction.

[wood 11121]

1 hour ago, G650 said:

Sorry I meant 14, mistyped.

 

The whole thing with Merc is they had a huge head start with the engine change. But the other makers caught up. The program is very professional and that's how they grind it out, not by overwhelming superiority.

Ferrari was just flat out better than everyone in every department in the early aughts. Insanely dominant. And I say that as an old Maclaren fan. I literally quit watching for like 5 years because it was so boring. I've been an F1 fan since the 80s and I have never seen anything like early 2000s Ferrari before or since.

That's what I figured. But the win rate for Merc in 2014 wasn't less than 15. They won 16 of 19 races. 

Re: the head start, yep, they absolutely had a huge head start, and the token system basically cemented that, which was handy, for sure. But they were absolutely dominant those first three years. They aren't as dominant now, but they still have a power advantage by most accounts (recently-gained, according to some).

I totally agree Ferrari were dominant, but then Merc came along and topped them significantly in win % and podium %, over a longer period of time, and in an F1 with more races per year. 

[texas08 1599]

3/4s done w the Schumacher film…

Man, those 90s early 2000s races were something else.

Max have a lot of Schumacher in him (while racing)? Schumacher def wrecked folks out when he knew it was critical to wreck them, lol. A la this past weekend with Max.

Sucks that we don’t get to see Schumacher advise a team or his son etc…

[texas08 1599]

Also, Red Bull/Perez doing one of those city show downs or whatever they’re called in Dallas October 16th (driving the car through a downtown area I would assume).

[wood 11121]

4 minutes ago, texas08 said:

Also, Red Bull/Perez doing one of those city show downs or whatever they’re called in Dallas October 16th (driving the car through a downtown area I would assume).

Cool. Too bad it's not a week earlier, during Tx-ou weekend.

[Anton Chigurh 3318]

If you wanna waste a few hours….


https://flic.kr/ps/384ap2

[ConferenceRoom 6129]

Schumacher was great, better than I was expecting. I think I had Drive to Survive PTSD or something.

Watching Corinna and the kids talk about life post-accident is as rough as it gets. If only he hadn’t run into Bruno in Spain and gotten that penalty, we could have seen him start on pole in Monaco one last time. Maybe he still retires the car, maybe he doesn’t.

[Chewbacca 7729]

Well, yeah, but that small difference in the amount of space given is what differentiates it from being not enough space to enough space to make the turn. It's not a trivial difference, and that difference affects the outcome dramatically.

Danny did not have enough space. That's why he backed out.

[kevwun 15624]

The Schumacher doc on Netflix is great.  The end is sad as fuck and the whole situation with keeping him alive in whatever condition he is in now is very strange.

[wood 11121]

30 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

3 hours ago, wood said:

Well, yeah, but that small difference in the amount of space given is what differentiates it from being not enough space to enough space to make the turn. It's not a trivial difference, and that difference affects the outcome dramatically.

Danny did not have enough space. That's why he backed out.

Yep, Max forced him out of it, and Danny let him. He just did it later than Lewis did. It was just a bit of a different deal. Max actually drove the racing line, closer to the apex than Lewis did when they ended up crashing. Then Max closed off that space, forcing Danny to go wide or just back out, which is bullshit and against the rules ... but the vast majority of the time, people are getting away with it because of incompetent Race Direction and Stewarding and because of crappy track limits control (lack of grass & gravel)..

To clarify what I said before about Max giving more room than LEC or Lewis, he did, and then he didn't. He gave space initially, then closed it off quickly on exit of 1. Lewis & LEC went wide of the apex (I think Lewis & Max really just outbraked themselves in their incident), and got to the left side earlier in the turn, and then drove to the apex at a more gradual angle. Different approaches, but both bullshit, as they force the other guy off the track.

Like I said, for me it's bullshit no matter who does it, and it's not about Max or Lewis or any other particular driver. It's about enforcing the existing rules to encourage better racing.

Edited September 16, 2021 by wood

[G650 14086]

8 hours ago, texas08 said:

Man, those 90s early 2000s races were something else.

Truth. Probably my favorite cars.

[ConferenceRoom 6129]

 

[utee94 15745]

Nice.  Maybe we'll get lucky and see a Ricciardo win in Texas this year.  

[ConferenceRoom 6129]

Hell yeah. Anything can happen with Lewis and Max bumping uglies every other race. 

[utee94 15745]

Fred says "racing incident" and he knows about a bazillion times more about racing than all of you surly MFers put together, so I'm gonna go ahead and consider it settled, because Fred says so.

 

Alonso: Verstappen, Hamilton "did what they should do"

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/alonso-verstappen-hamilton-clash-monza/6668047/?fbclid=IwAR3nIsMU1JAU7NPVKRvV-8bJBBX0Er2HhdRs-f_2-NDUNyCXOYuEZjiJMZ8

 

[Anton Chigurh 3318]

Hey, he said that for Silverstone too!

[utee94 15745]

2 minutes ago, Anton Chigurh said:

Hey, he said that for Silverstone too!

I didn't dispute him then, either. 

 

[wood 11121]

25 minutes ago, Anton Chigurh said:

Hey, he said that for Silverstone too!

Yep. The immediate reaction on Autosport was "Meh, Alonso hates Lewis. Of course he'd say that."

When they were reminded that Alonso also called Silverstone a racing incident, the crickets were deafening.

[wood 11121]

Pretty cool. Water tunnels ...

 

[Atxracer 797]

22 hours ago, utee94 said:

Fred says "racing incident" and he knows about a bazillion times more about racing than all of you surly MFers put together, so I'm gonna go ahead and consider it settled, because Fred says so.

Well, my Dad (who is bigger than yours) says it was Verstappen’s fault. So, there. 

Edited September 17, 2021 by Atxracer

[Dutch 4465]

Edited September 18, 2021 by Dutch

[utee94 15745]

5 hours ago, Atxracer said:

Well, my Dad (who is bigger than yours) says it was Verstappen’s fault. So, there. 

My dad's pretty small, so your dad's probably bigger.

And, once your dad has won the Monaco GP, the F1 WDC (twice), Le Mans, and led at least 27 laps at the Indy 500, I'll be sure to take his opinion on racing under advisement.

 

[VABuckeye 2472]

Watched Schumacher.  I’m now sad. 

[wood 11121]

3 hours ago, utee94 said:

My dad's pretty small, so your dad's probably bigger.

And, once your dad has won the Monaco GP, the F1 WDC (twice), Le Mans, and led at least 27 laps at the Indy 500, I'll be sure to take his opinion on racing under advisement.

Impressive body of work, and don't forget the other Le Mans win, the other Monaco win, Daytona, Sebring (new lap record in Q), P13 in the Dakar (1st try), World Karting Championship, & WEC Championship.

Alpine are saying he might do Le Mans again with them later on, too. What I'd really love to see is him (or any other F1 driver) trying the Bathurst 12H. 

[utee94 15745]

11 minutes ago, wood said:

What I'd really love to see is him (or any other F1 driver) trying the Bathurst 12H. 

And then the Baja 1000.  And Ozzie V8s.  And NASCAR.

 

[Levi 2576]

1 hour ago, VABuckeye said:

Watched Schumacher.  I’m now sad. 

The last 15 min of the doc is tough, especially some of Mick’s comments. 

[Buzzrock 14870]

The Schumacher doc is great. Loads of racing footage. There are some notable similarities between him and Max IMO, except of course for the growing up poor part. Similar win-at-all-costs, never-wrong mentality.

I’d never seen the Senna crash before. Shades of Earnhardt.

[Buzzrock 14870]

3/4s done w the Schumacher film…

Man, those 90s early 2000s races were something else.

Max have a lot of Schumacher in him (while racing)? Schumacher def wrecked folks out when he knew it was critical to wreck them, lol. A la this past weekend with Max.

Sucks that we don’t get to see Schumacher advise a team or his son etc…

You beat me to it.

[ChickenSandwich 9798]

Some amazing short pants right off the bat. 

[RamjetFDO 10554]

My dad's pretty small, so your dad's probably bigger.

[Stringer 1437]

The Schumacher doc is great. Loads of racing footage. There are some notable similarities between him and Max IMO, except of course for the growing up poor part. Similar win-at-all-costs, never-wrong mentality.

I’d never seen the Senna crash before. Shades of Earnhardt.

You should watch the Senna documentary. It’s really good and even though you know the crash is coming the whole time, it is still so shocking.

[wood 11121]

15 minutes ago, Stringer said:

You should watch the Senna documentary. It’s really good and even though you know the crash is coming the whole time, it is still so shocking.

It's very good & has a lot of great footage. Bernie let Asif Kapadia into his vault and gave him access to his whole F1 video collection, which from what I hear is by far the most extensive in the world. 

I got to meet Asif in the weeks before and during the Senna premier, & he seems like a good guy. He also directed "Amy", about Amy Winehouse. Senna was entertaining & heart-wrenching, but fairly one-sided in favor of Senna. Another good doc to watch is "1". 

[wood 11121]

F1's 2022 calendar plans revealed: 23 races, three 'triple-headers', shorter Monaco weekend https://www.racefans.net/2021/09/18/f1s-2022-calendar-plans-revealed-23-races-three-triple-headers-shorter-monaco-weekend/

Provisional dates for 2022 F1 calendar
Date        Country           Circuit
20 March  Bahrain    Bahrain International Circuit
27 March  Saudi Arabia   Jeddah Corniche Circuit
10 April    Australia   Albert Park
24 April    China   Shanghai International Circuit
8 May      USA     Miami International Autodrome
22 May    Spain    Circuit de Catalunya
29 May    Monaco    Monaco
12 June   Azerbaijan    Baku City Circuit
19 June   Canada    Circuit Gilles Villeneuve
3 July      Britain*    Silverstone
10 July    Austria*    Red Bull Ring
17 July    France/Italy    Paul Ricard/Imola
31 July    Hungary    Hungaroring
28 August       Belgium   Spa-Francorchamps
4 September   Netherlands   Zandvoort
11 September Italy    Monza
25 September Russia    Sochi Autodrom
2 October    Singapore/Turkey    Singapore/Istanbul Park
9 October    Japan    Suzuka
23 October  USA    Circuit of the Americas
30 October  Mexico    Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez
13 November Brazil    Interlagos
20 November Abu Dhabi    Yas Marina

[kevwun 15624]

You could tell Senna was in real bad shape as soon as the car stopped moving.  His head never moved and he was slumped forward.

[Chewbacca 7729]

Watched Schumacher.  I’m now sad. 

Watched that last night and Senna tonight. Senna was so much better.