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wood

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That seems pretty huge about Hamilton. 

Wing issues aside, does today show that if money were no object and you were allowed unlimited engine replacements that Mercedes would be driving away with the title? 

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Hope this helps clarify a bit.

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Anton Chigurh

Anton Chigurh 3318

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That seems pretty huge about Hamilton. 
Wing issues aside, does today show that if money were no object and you were allowed unlimited engine replacements that Mercedes would be driving away with the title? 

Probably, but it’s not that simple either. Lots of things have gone into it. The regulations affected them (and AM) the most with the floor cuts, and of course there is not only a budget cap but a token spend limit of 2, so they were never going to really be able to claw that back very well.

Because of this they do not make as much efficient downforce as Red Bull, so they’re trying to get around it with brute force, which is causing engines to wear quickly.
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28 minutes ago, Anton Chigurh said:


Likely DSQ from qualifying, but they will report to stewards about it. So unless it was broken or something in someway, he will start sprint race from the back.

Can't wait to watch 24 laps of Max going 65 mph, just weaving back and forth in the middle of the track. Defense wins championships!

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Dutch

Dutch 4464

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1 hour ago, Anton Chigurh said:

 

 

1 hour ago, Anton Chigurh said:

We got ourselves a good old wing-gate!

5937f3adf8d89464e36958a5480092fe.jpg

Max was also touching the wing on Lewis’ car after Q, which is apparently not allowed. Might get interesting.

The FIA article Verstappen allegedly broke:

Article 2.5.1: “Inside the Parc Fermé, only the officials assigned may enter. No operation, checking, tuning or repair is allowed unless authorised by the same officials or by the applicable regulations.” 

Seems like a pretty clear breach if he did touch the car. Max will probably argue he didn’t actually touch the wing (“hand measuring” or something). In that video it doesn’t look 100% conclusive. Wonder if this gives the FIA cause to not penalize Hamilton (“look, it was legal until Max messed with it”).

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-max-verstappen-summoned-stewards/6775580/

 

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TonyTexas

TonyTexas 10467

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5 minutes ago, kevwun said:

When did the news break?  Did the other teams have concerns about it before F1 caught it?  

Red Bull obviously had concerns because Verstappen was checking it out in the the parc ferme immediately after the session. 

Edited by TonyTexas
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Anton Chigurh

Anton Chigurh 3318

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That’s what I was thinking, but wasn’t sure.  They have some goods eyes to notice it being off by that small of an amount.  Seems like a convenient worn part.


Red Bull were trying to protest something different. They are saying that the element itself bends at above 260 km/h or so.

It seems that the Merc wing was okay by just placing the check tool into the wing, but it has to also pass with a 10N force applied. Once force was applied, it failed. So basically, it was really, really close. Any performance gain would be marginal, but it did fail the test, so it’s a DSQ.
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Huckleberry

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4 minutes ago, Anton Chigurh said:

It seems that the Merc wing was okay by just placing the check tool into the wing, but it has to also pass with a 10N force applied. Once force was applied, it failed. So basically, it was really, really close. Any performance gain would be marginal, but it did fail the test, so it’s a DSQ.

 

Not sure how marginal it would be. 10 Newtons is barely 2 pounds. At full speed in a DRS zone there's a lot more than 10N pushing it open. 

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Anton Chigurh

Anton Chigurh 3318

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I mean that seems like the way to design it if the test says they can't use any more than 10 Newtons. 

Absolutely. All teams do this. I’m just saying that the DRS gap is not something Max would have noticed. I don’t even know what Max was doing poking around the wings, since the Merc wing did pass the test completely in the closed position.
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Dutch

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2 hours ago, Chewbacca said:

That's likely the end of the drivers championship. Lewis had the better car this weekend, too. I was hoping for it to go down to the end.

Not so fast, my friend.

On this evidence, he’ll blow by both RBs and Bottas will jump out of the way. A win is very much in play.  In a way, LH was quite lucky his infraction happened at a sprint weekend. A regular GP and he’s starting the race from the pits. This weekend? Only 10th. 

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Anton Chigurh

Anton Chigurh 3318

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Not so fast, my friend.
On this evidence, he’ll blow by both RBs and Bottas will jump out of the way. A win is very much in play.  In a way, LH was quite lucky his infraction happened at a sprint weekend. A regular GP and he’s starting the race from the pits. This weekend? Only 10th. 

On a regular weekend they would have discovered the wing issue after FP2 or something, though.
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wood

wood 11090

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3 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

I mean that seems like the way to design it if the test says they can't use any more than 10 Newtons. 

Right. The test isn't just designed to just test the gap when the car is stationary. It's testing the flexibility of the wing itself. If it's too easily deflected, then the wing is too bendy, and it fails.

 

 

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wood

wood 11090

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3 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

Not sure how marginal it would be. 10 Newtons is barely 2 pounds. At full speed in a DRS zone there's a lot more than 10N pushing it open. 

Yep. Ted also said the test device passed through the Merc wing very easily, not needing anywhere near a 10N push.

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wood

wood 11090

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1 hour ago, Dutch said:

Not so fast, my friend.

On this evidence, he’ll blow by both RBs and Bottas will jump out of the way. A win is very much in play.  In a way, LH was quite lucky his infraction happened at a sprint weekend. A regular GP and he’s starting the race from the pits. This weekend? Only 10th. 

Yeah the sprint saved his ass.

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wood

wood 11090

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2 hours ago, Anton Chigurh said:


On a regular weekend they would have discovered the wing issue after FP2 or something, though.

Nobody would have brought it up to the FIA before qualifying. That gives Merc a chance to correct it before Qualifying. They'd let Merc hang themselves first. 

IMHO the wing probably failed because it's designed to bend that much. I don't think that's an accident with a team like Merc, and I don't think there was an actual issue with the wing in terms of worn or broken parts, and so there would be nothing for the team to notice and repair. It just deflected too easily, which is something that was suspected coming into this race and this time was caught by Scrutineering in a test.

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Anton Chigurh

Anton Chigurh 3318

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Nobody would have brought it up to the stewards before qualifying. That gives Merc a chance to correct it before Qualifying.
IMHO the wing probably failed because it's designed to bend that much. I don't think that's an accident with a team like Merc, and I don't think there was an actual issue with the wing in terms of worn or broken parts, and so there would be nothing for the team to notice and repair. It just deflected too easily, which is something that was suspected coming into this race and this time was caught by Scrutineering in a test.

That goes against pretty much everything said in the stewards report.

Also, they are checked on the top 10 cars after qualy anyway, so it passed the previous 18 times on both cars.
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wood

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16 minutes ago, Anton Chigurh said:


That goes against pretty much everything said in the stewards report.

Also, they are checked on the top 10 cars after qualy anyway, so it passed the previous 18 times on both cars.

It doesn't, actually, and it doesn't  go against what the test is designed to check. It's clearly not designed to check just the stationary gap. It's designed to check deflection, and that's where the Merc wing failed - on the deflection under force, not the gap.

And yeah, it passed previously, but this time it didn't. Something was different, but I'm not close to naive enough to think it's down to an efficient organization such as Merc putting worn, broken, or defective wing parts on the car. These cars are assembled with painstaking care and attention to detail and very fine tolerances. If there was that much extra play in the ends of the wing, as the report indicates, then it was there because Merc wanted it there, imho. Especially on a part so critical as the rear wing. The report doesn't say that the extra play was there because of assembly error or worn parts. It just says that's a possibility.

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kevwun

kevwun 15572

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I’m sure it’s a coincidence that the worn part would just happen to provide a speed boost.  The odds of Mercedes missing that are rather slim. It’s even bigger coincidence that it happened when Hamilton would need to overtake to get up front because of the engine penalty.

Edited by kevwun
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Anton Chigurh

Anton Chigurh 3318

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I’m sure it’s a coincidence that the worn part would just happen to provide a speed boost.  The odds of Mercedes missing that are rather slim. It’s even bigger coincidence that it happened when Hamilton would need to overtake to get up front because of the engine penalty.

It was out by 0.2mm on the left side only. They believe it was damaged during Q.


https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mercedes-hamiltons-wing-failed-tests-by-just-02mm/6778697/
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Chewbacca

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Not so fast, my friend.
On this evidence, he’ll blow by both RBs and Bottas will jump out of the way. A win is very much in play.  In a way, LH was quite lucky his infraction happened at a sprint weekend. A regular GP and he’s starting the race from the pits. This weekend? Only 10th. 
I was shocked at how fast he was today. A podium is not out of the running for tomorrow. Not sure he can catch Max or Bottas, though.
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wood

wood 11090

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1 hour ago, Chewbacca said:
11 hours ago, Dutch said:
Not so fast, my friend.
On this evidence, he’ll blow by both RBs and Bottas will jump out of the way. A win is very much in play.  In a way, LH was quite lucky his infraction happened at a sprint weekend. A regular GP and he’s starting the race from the pits. This weekend? Only 10th. 

I was shocked at how fast he was today. A podium is not out of the running for tomorrow. Not sure he can catch Max or Bottas, though.

Yeah that car with the engine opened up was just way faster today than anything else out there today. Max in the RBR couldn't even get anything going on Bottas, and cars that are normally hard for the Mercs to pass, like the McLarens, looked like they were sitting still when Lewis just drove by them repeatedly on the straight before the braking zone. Same with the pass on Alonso. Alonso has been one of the quickest in the speed traps, and had DRS and a tow from the cars ahead. Lewis is out of the draft and on the left, and still just blows by. With this kind of straightline speed advantage, I could see them taking even more engine penalties and keep opening up the engines.

I'm curious what the race pace comparisons between RBR and Merc look like for tomorrow.  Anyone seen anything about that?

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ChickenSandwich

ChickenSandwich 9795

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https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/norris-wants-one-shot-qualifying-on-f1-sprint-weekends/6780905/
 

I like Landon’s idea. (Or was it Alonzo?)

The one-hour of running that takes place after qualifying and before the sprint race has been criticised for being irrelevant for fans, even though it is useful for teams in gathering tyre data.

Norris thinks that the practice session should be got rid of completely, and instead replaced by a one-shot qualifying session that decides the grid for the sprint.

"The thing I would love to maybe add is to change it so you have qualifying on Friday for the race on Sunday," explained Norris.
 

"Then you have a one-shot qualifying on Saturday morning for the sprint race on Saturday. So a one-lap qualifying like they used to do.

"I think that could be exciting, instead of the FP2 that we do now. Therefore you set up Saturday to be a little bit separate, I guess. So the sprint wouldn't mean anything for the Sunday race."

 

Separate question. Have they ever explored awarding more points to more grid spots?  Seems like that could make the midfield battles more exciting. 

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