Formula 1 2021

[utee94 15,742]

4 minutes ago, wood said:

I wouldn't rule it out, but I dunno if they're actually cheating. But yeah, that would be a typical tactic to cover if they were.

Of course they're cheating.  All Formula 1 teams cheat.  And I'm not talking about the way aggie fans always respond, when told that their only period of relevance was during the years of Fedex Jackie $herrill, that "everyone else was doing it too."

I mean quite literally that everyone in Formula 1 is always cheating.  It's a deliberate and calculated part of the sport.  They refer to in terms of "innovating to gain a technical edge" and other stuff, but they are all constantly doing it, and they know very well when they've gone beyond the ragged edge of the technical regs, yet they still persist in doing it, until they get caught.

The fact that there is SUCH a tremendous advantage right now, tells me Merc has probably stumbled onto something QUITE effective.  We might or might not find out what it is this season.  But there's no doubt we'll find out eventually.

 

[Goofyboy 3,156]

If it’s not in the regulations, it’s not cheating, it’s innovation.

Yes - I am a Mercedes and Lewis fan, so I am all sorts of biased.

[NoName 16,271]

19 minutes ago, wood said:

I wouldn't rule it out, but I dunno if they're actually cheating. But yeah, that would be a typical tactic to cover if they were.

no clue either on this front...BUT if they had this in their back pocket the whole time, you would think they wouldn't wait to roll out "upgrades" until the last 4 events, right?

they said multiple times their last big updates were at Silverstone and were working mainly on tweaks the rest of the way.

let's say it is a strategic decision to turn up performance to say even 125% (guessing this totally) without being worried about engine longevity due to only 4 races being left...one would think they would be willing to do this sooner than later and take the chance of RBR pulling away from a strategic standpoint. even if they know they only get say 2-3 races out of it the jump in performance is just SO big.

again, not saying they are cheating but they have very clearly found something on the technical end well beyond just new engine goes brr.

Edited November 15, 2021 by NoName

[utee94 15,742]

2 minutes ago, Goofyboy said:

If it’s not in the regulations, it’s not cheating, it’s innovation.

Yes - I am a Mercedes and Lewis fan, so I am all sorts of biased.

Yup.

And even if it IS against the regs, it's only cheating if you get caught.

I'm not singling out Mercedes here, at all.  Ferrari had their whole "oil in the gas" thing, and then the teams that had overly bendy front wings a few years back, etc.

It's part of the fabric of the sport.

 

[wood 11,103]

22 hours ago, aggie08 said:

I mean, that's definitely a penalty yeah?

Sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn't, which is what Alonso and others have been on about. They need to just decide one way or the other, and then stick to it. But they won't do that, because F1.

[wood 11,103]

14 minutes ago, NoName said:

no clue either on this front...BUT if they had this in their back pocket the whole time, you would think they would wait to roll out "upgrades" until the last 4 events, right?

they said multiple times their last big updates were at Silverstone and were working mainly on tweaks the rest of the way.

let's say it is a strategic decision to turn up performance to say even 125% (guessing this totally) without being worried about engine longevity due to only 4 races being left...one would think they would be willing to do this sooner than later and take the chance of RBR pulling away from a strategic standpoint. even if they know they only get say 2-3 races out of it the jump in performance is just SO big.

again, not saying they are cheating but they have very clearly found something on the technical end well beyond just new engine goes brr.

Yeah this is basically what I was telling my 17 yo earlier. If they had that much PU in hand for the whole season, then it would have made more sense to turn it up earlier, but to a lesser extent. That way you don't send up the red flags this performance has, and you don't push PU reliability as close to the edge.

(I assume here that you meant "BUT if they had this in their back pocket the whole time, you would think they wouldn't wait to roll out "upgrades" until the last 4 events")

Edited November 15, 2021 by wood

[NoName 16,271]

Just now, wood said:

(I assume here that you meant "BUT if they had this in their back pocket the whole time, you would think they wouldn't wait to roll out "upgrades" until the last 4 events")

yes that is absolutely correct. editing it

[wood 11,103]

22 hours ago, 52-80 said:

For a change? Hes the cleanest of all the top drivers

He's run people off other times, too. Nico at T1 COTA comes to mind right off the bat. Lewis, Alonso, Kimi, and a few others are generally very clean, but  even they have all been known to do it, because running people off on exit has become accepted over the last few years - because of paved runoffs. Put a wall, grass, gravel, or astroturf at the edge of the track, and this problem goes away.

[wood 11,103]

22 hours ago, NoName said:

As a new fan, has it been this boring the last few years with a guy in a car that's this much better than everyone else's plus is one of the best ever?

20 to 5? Then 10 to 1?

Mostly, yeah.

[wood 11,103]

22 hours ago, Dutch said:

Merc’s straight line power advantage was damn impressive. Running the reactor at 105%? Nos fuel mixture? 

Bodes well for them heading to the final 3 races. 

Nah. They just kicked in the VTEC, yo.

[52-80 19,066]

28 minutes ago, wood said:

He's run people off other times, too. Nico at T1 COTA comes to mind right off the bat. Lewis, Alonso, Kimi, and a few others are generally very clean, but  even they have all been known to do it, because running people off on exit has become accepted over the last few years - because of paved runoffs. Put a wall, grass, gravel, or astroturf at the edge of the track, and this problem goes away.

Every driver has had their mistakes so nobody's exempt.  Bug largely Lewis' accidents were only within Mercedes, especially in the Nico years when they were like 2 siblings going at it, including aforementioned COTA accident.

To compare Hamilton's wheel to wheel racing vs Max who bared his teeth vs everyone on the grid is laughable tho. 

[Mittens 8,147]

8 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Bug largely Lewis' accidents were only within Mercedes 

[wood 11,103]

22 hours ago, 52-80 said:

Its been like this for basically forever. Certainly this decade when i started watching and Vettel-RB was dominating. 
only spicy battle was between teammates 

The last season I can remember with a really good battle for the WDC between drivers from different teams was probably 2010. Alonso in the 3rd best car, & Vettel in the best car, edging Alonso 256-252 after the bad strategy call by Ferrari in Abu Dhabi. Alonso put up a hell of a fight in a woeful Ferrari in 2012. One of the best seasons I've ever seen,  but the WDC wasn' gonna happen.

And the Red Bull was dominant, but nothing like this Merc PU & car has been. Two of Vettel's four WDCs came by 4 and 3 points over Alonso in inferior cars. RBR won about 1/2 the races in their streak. Merc has won 3/4 of the races since the start of 2014, and they've won the WDC s and WCCs by much larger margins than RBR did. Merc's worst years in this run have been close to RBR's best years.

[wood 11,103]

16 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Every driver has had their mistakes so nobody's exempt.  Bug largely Lewis' accidents were only within Mercedes, especially in the Nico years when they were like 2 siblings going at it, including aforementioned COTA accident.

To compare Hamilton's wheel to wheel racing vs Max who bared his teeth vs everyone on the grid is laughable tho. 

I didn't compare him to Max, and I agree that should have been a penaly as it should have been in lots of other cases but wasn't - including times when Lewis and other drivers who are known as clean drivers have also done it. 

[wood 11,103]

22 hours ago, 52-80 said:

If they had penalized Max 5s for that, as they should, it woudlve been a merc 1-2

Maybe. But probably not. You can't really go just by the 3+ sec gap Max had on Bottas at the end. Max wasn't going to catch Lewis and Bottas wasn't pressuring Max. Max was cruising.

[wood 11,103]

11 hours ago, Chewbacca said:

Anyone know how engine upgrades work during the season?  You've got manufacturers like Ferrari and Mercedes who supply engines to other teams, but they also have their own teams.  Obviously Mercedes and Ferrari have recently had big engine upgrades that don't appear to have been shared with the teams that buy engines from them.  How does that work?  Because if those teams don't get the upgrades, they're never going to be on a level playing field with the manufacturers.  Is that just a fuck you if you're not a manufacturer, or is there more to it?

The PU manufacturers are supposed to provide like equipment and software to their customer teams, but I can't remember if they have to do that on the same weekend that they introduce an upgrade, or of they're allowed to delay it. 

[wood 11,103]

4 hours ago, Goofyboy said:

He reminds me of a petulant little brother that wants to be Toto Wolf. Their rivalry is fun to watch.

Horner and Toto are both little bitches, just in different ways. And Toto is as full of shit as anyone ever on the grid.

ETA: @NoName beat me to it, and yeah that's some of the next level Toto bs I'm talking about.

Edited November 15, 2021 by wood

[wood 11,103]

1 hour ago, utee94 said:

Of course they're cheating.  All Formula 1 teams cheat.  And I'm not talking about the way aggie fans always respond, when told that their only period of relevance was during the years of Fedex Jackie $herrill, that "everyone else was doing it too."

I mean quite literally that everyone in Formula 1 is always cheating.  It's a deliberate and calculated part of the sport.  They refer to in terms of "innovating to gain a technical edge" and other stuff, but they are all constantly doing it, and they know very well when they've gone beyond the ragged edge of the technical regs, yet they still persist in doing it, until they get caught.

The fact that there is SUCH a tremendous advantage right now, tells me Merc has probably stumbled onto something QUITE effective.  We might or might not find out what it is this season.  But there's no doubt we'll find out eventually.

I mean, yeah. I think they are. I just don't know they are.

[Chewbacca 7,727]

9 minutes ago, wood said:

The PU manufacturers are supposed to provide like equipment and software to their customer teams, but I can't remember if they have to do that on the same weekend that they introduce an upgrade, or of they're allowed to delay it. 

The way Lewis passed the McLarens like they were standing still tells me that did not happen this weekend.  He couldn't pass them at Monza.

[utee94 15,742]

1 minute ago, wood said:

I mean, yeah. I think they are. I just don't know they are.

Actually, I bet you KNOW they are, you just can't PROVE they are.

 

 

 

 

 

[wood 11,103]

1 minute ago, Chewbacca said:

The way Lewis passed the McLarens like they were standing still tells me that did not happen this weekend.  He couldn't pass them at Monza.

Yeah they can probably hold off by saying they're still 'testing and evaluating the upgrade to be sure it's good' before saddling their valued customers with it.

[Anton Chigurh 3,318]

*Disclaimer: the engine mode rules are part of a technical directive, so we don’t have access to the exact wording/ruling for it*

The manufacturer provides the same power unit hardware and engine modes, but the customer teams pretty much just use the more “standard” modes for a few reasons:

1) their individual cooling packages are almost never as good as the works team (though there was that time where Merc miscalculated the cooling requirements on the W09 which hurt them some on the engine side that year)
2) they are always going to be more conservative since they don’t have all of the same ingrained knowledge of the power units as a works team (there are actually engine manufacturer technicians deployed to the customer teams by the manufacturer).

I do believe that they can choose to take an older spec as well. Like say Ferrari introduces their upgrade, and it needs X amount of cooling capacity. Haas might opt to take the old spec because they cannot achieve that capacity without significant aero loss or cost investment, or maybe they take the new one and just run it in a less powerful mode, etc.

A lot of this depends on the weather and the circuit, too.

Relating to the disclaimer above, I am not sure on exactly when they have to make any upgraded spec components available to the customer teams.

[XYZ 2,154]

“Supposed to” make their latest bells and whistles to their other customers is very different from “will they”. With the amount of hardware and software involved, I’m sure it’s not difficult to hide certain features.

[ChickenSandwich 9,797]

4 hours ago, NoName said:

no clue either on this front...BUT if they had this in their back pocket the whole time, you would think they wouldn't wait to roll out "upgrades" until the last 4 events, right?

they said multiple times their last big updates were at Silverstone and were working mainly on tweaks the rest of the way.

let's say it is a strategic decision to turn up performance to say even 125% (guessing this totally) without being worried about engine longevity due to only 4 races being left...one would think they would be willing to do this sooner than later and take the chance of RBR pulling away from a strategic standpoint. even if they know they only get say 2-3 races out of it the jump in performance is just SO big.

again, not saying they are cheating but they have very clearly found something on the technical end well beyond just new engine goes brr.

This could be one of the variables. They mention that it’s very hard to do and the circuit plays a huge role. If they have been slowly dialing this in it could explain some gains (in addition to new PU). 
 

 

[52-80 19,066]

Maybe Mercedes is actually running a Toyota 2JZ-GTE under the hood

[Chewbacca 7,727]

9 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Maybe Mercedes is actually running a Toyota 2JZ-GTE under the hood

It would decimate all.  They might have to overnight some parts from Japan, though.

[NoName 16,271]

I enjoyed this analysis 

Quote

The rumour is "The last (Brazil) engine of Hamilton is set to last only for 4 races". This makes people think that the Brazil performance of the engine will repeat in the last 3 races.

Now, wait a minute. Hamilton's previous engine lasted 3 races (Turkey, Austin, Mexico) and was put aside because of water pressure, right? And one of those 3 races was wet (Turkey). Mexico was lost maybe because of altitude, but it didn't dominate Austin (its 2nd race) like it did in Brazil.

Now, how can this mighty Brazil engine of Hamilton last **sprint** (100KM sprint was already flatout for Ham) **and 4 races** (one was already pushing a lot and the next three in desert)? Is there something I'm missing?

RBR-Honda on the other hand, has two race engines usable now (PU3 and PU4. PU2 is lost in Silverstone. PU1 did 6 races and was surprisingly fast, leading 1-2, in its last race, which was Baku). These two engines will have to have completed 12 races together (Hungary->Abu Dhabi) by the end. **So, Max's Abu Dhabi engine will be in its 6th race at worst**. Honda loses 1 tenth (Horner says it, I'll take his word) from start to finish, while Merc is rumored to lose more than that even in its 2nd race. So, "Honda in its 6th race" may be stronger than "Mercedes in its 4th race".

So, Ham's brazil engine's pace shows that (not only compared to Honda, just compare it to Bottas' which had done only two races pre-Brazil. Also, compare the qualis of Ham and Bottas in Mexico and Brazil) it was so tuned up that, there are three options left for it now till the end. You can choose one or more, but at least one.

* its pace will drop really fast.
* some smoke.
* Another 5P penalty.

Max has always been in top2 this season (without outer factors) and always (except Turkey, where RBR was in its worst form this year) ahead Bottas. The three factors/options about Merc engine above, will give Max another win and 21 pts gap (not exactly this weekend, can also be the last race). He'll need to go for one 2nd and one 3rd in the other races, both of which Hamilton has to win.

Merc taking a 5P penalty in all the 3 remaining races and winning it all, sounds too fantastic, considering none of the remaining tracks are good for overtaking as much as Brazil. In fact, Qatar and Jeddah may be even worse than average for that. 3 5P penalties, will gift Max at least one win and 2 more podiums, which will be game over for Merc.

There are some good posts in that thread

[Chewbacca 7,727]

Shit, they'll just take another engine to unlock God more again.

[wood 11,103]

2 hours ago, NoName said:

I enjoyed this analysis 

There are some good posts in that thread

This one was pretty interesting, too, & seems accurate...

Quote

Totally different track though. At Interlagos the two straights are 2km long combined, that’s 45% of the track, and one is a hill climb. Very much in favor of engine power. Qatar only has one real mentionable straight, which is totally flat and only 1.1km long, which makes it just over 20% of the track. So in quali that will already make less of a difference.

In the race the difference is 71 laps vs 57 laps. So instead of getting 92km of uphill straight and 50km of flat straight like in Brazil, Qatar will only have 63km of flat straight.

So I expect the that Mercedes won’t benefit the way they did, even if they would fit a new engine.

If there is a big difference between Merc and Red Bull in Qatar, it will (mostly) be because of the car itself.

 

[NoName 16,271]

someone made a WDC scenario page here that you can tweak/edit on your own:

https://playoutwdc.krastan.com/

hot take: we have at least 1 DNF between LH and MV the rest of the way

///

Max and Lewis (FORWARD FACING) onboard:

https://streamable.com/tp7dub

 

[Anton Chigurh 3,318]

A gif

[Amos Moses 795]

Not overly egregious or dirty, but really very late turn in there. I think the 5 second penalty is within reason but it hasn’t been consistently enforced. Probably best to leave it alone at this point and let the last 3 races be determinative.

[faps 806]

Max didn't fully crank the wheel until way past the apex. Seems pretty intentional. Good thing Lewis was ready for it I guess.

[Amos Moses 795]

Of course it was intentional. He drives like a shithead when pressured. Maybe the question is whether it’s bad from a Max standard or is it bad from a reasonable driver standard. Hard to say I think given more drivers are seeing the cracks in enforcement and pushing the limit.

[utee94 15,742]

Friends and countrymen, watch as Lewis Hamilton spectacularly misses the apex by about 30 yards.  

"Good think Nico was ready for it, I guess..." 😀

 

 

 

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by utee94

[Anton Chigurh 3,318]

^ That has always been “allowed”, and Lewis plays it right on the edge, which he’s very good at. He also stayed on the track.


But anyway, whatabouting to things that happened 6 years ago doesn’t really benefit the current discussion.

[Anton Chigurh 3,318]

But in other news, Guanyu Zhou was confirmed for Alfa next year.


Not really excited about it tbh.

[utee94 15,742]

3 minutes ago, Anton Chigurh said:

^ That has always been “allowed”, and Lewis plays it right on the edge, which he’s very good at. He also stayed on the track.


But anyway, whatabouting to things that happened 6 years ago doesn’t really benefit the current discussion.

It's really no different at all.  And you're right that it's (mostly) always been allowed-- Max's move was allowed as well.

 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Amos Moses said:

Of course it was intentional. He drives like a shithead when pressured. Maybe the question is whether it’s bad from a Max standard or is it bad from a reasonable driver standard. Hard to say I think given more drivers are seeing the cracks in enforcement and pushing the limit.

Max should have just clipped his rear tire and sent Hamilton spinning into the wall. And then when he won the race, waved a flag around like he was a WWF champion even though Hamilton was sent to the hospital. 

I jest. It's a borderline dirty move, along with the weaving. But I also think Hamilton is just as guilty of borderline moves in previous races. 

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by FirstTimeCaller

[utee94 15,742]

Look, the drivers push the limits just like the teams do.  They're all making borderline moves in certain situations.

I just laugh at folks defending one driver over another, when they all do it.  Especially Lewis freaking Hamilton.

I'd agree that Max takes it to the edge more often, but he also gets results that way.  If it's not penalized, it wasn't cheating.

Don't like it?  Call for better enforcement of the rules.  But, that also means consistent enforcement of the rules, which would apply to Lewis the same as Max, or anyone else.

[wood 11,103]

21 minutes ago, Anton Chigurh said:

^ That has always been “allowed”, and Lewis plays it right on the edge, which he’s very good at. He also stayed on the track.


But anyway, whatabouting to things that happened 6 years ago doesn’t really benefit the current discussion.

No it hasn't. Drivers have been penalized for it multiple times, but not consistently or often enough - to the point that it's become generally common practice. It wasn't even a thing until the FIA mandated paved runoffs. It certainly wasn't all that common back when Lewis did it to Nico & Nico did it back to Lewis.

And it's perfectly relevant to the discussion. Max should probably have been penalized in Brazil, but Lulu also should have been penalized back then at COTA, just as I said at the time. 

Edited November 16, 2021 by wood

[NoName 16,271]

19 minutes ago, Anton Chigurh said:

But in other news, Guanyu Zhou was confirmed for Alfa next year.


Not really excited about it tbh.

Alfa is getting $China out of the deal I assume.

 

[NoName 16,271]

Also, this happened:

aaaaaaaaaaaaaand RB counter protest coming in 3...2...1...

this comment made me chuckle:

Quote

What you don't know, is that Toto is currently standing in the middle of Losail angrily emailing a PowerPoint to Michael Masi as we speak.

 

[wood 11,103]

8 minutes ago, utee94 said:

Look, the drivers push the limits just like the teams do.  They're all making borderline moves in certain situations.

I just laugh at folks defending one driver over another, when they all do it.  Especially Lewis freaking Hamilton.

I'd agree that Max takes it to the edge more often, but he also gets results that way.  If it's not penalized, it wasn't cheating.

Don't like it?  Call for better enforcement of the rules.  But, that also means consistent enforcement of the rules, which would apply to Lewis the same as Max, or anyone else.

Yep, and I remember when Lewis was young, there were people questioning many of his moves under braking, saying he was too young, etc. Sound familiar? And yeah, exactly. Both Lewis's COTA move on Nico and Max's move in Brazil just highlight the piss-poor 'enforcement' in F1. I don't feel a bit bad for Lewis though, for a million reasons, and because why? He won the race anyway. Zero chance anyone was gonna beat him in that rocketship with that huge uphill straight.

[wood 11,103]

8 minutes ago, NoName said:

Also, this happened:

aaaaaaaaaaaaaand RB counter protest coming in 3...2...1...

this comment made me chuckle:

 

Yeah, fuck these assholes. They've had a massive advantage since before this PU era even started, and lobbied hard to entrench it with the idiotic and incredibly restrictive token system ... and Lewis has done the same kind of shit, and other shit, with no penalty. Fuck Merc AMG F1. Fuck crying Lewis, Fuck bitchass Toto, Fuck aggy. Fuck Baylor. Fuck Art Briles, etc. But most of all, Fuck Mack Brown.

Edited November 16, 2021 by wood

[NoName 16,271]

4 minutes ago, wood said:

 piss-poor 'enforcement' in F1

this is what i legitimately don't understand. have rules, follow them, enforce evenly.

if you don't you get stuff like this and whatever happens next.

it's like when NBA or NFL refs call playoff games super loose then tighten things up in the 4th and get worked up when things get chippy. it's your fault for tightening them up! just be even and fair.

[wood 11,103]

4 minutes ago, NoName said:

this is what i legitimately don't understand. have rules, follow them, enforce evenly.

if you don't you get stuff like this and whatever happens next.

it's like when NBA or NFL refs call playoff games super loose then tighten things up in the 4th and get worked up when things get chippy. it's your fault for tightening them up! just be even and fair.

Yep. Consistency is the one thing I want the most in sports officiating, and the one thing we see absolutely least of all. It's like when I was coaching baseball, all I wanted was consistency. Low and away is a strike on my guy? OK, then it better be a strike for the other team, too, or I'm gonna give you a rash of shit. And there is zero logic in changing the way games are called because it's late in the game or a key play, etc. If you called the infraction the rest of the game, then it should be called for the whole game. If you make a legit call on a guy that fucks him, you didn't fuck him. He fucked himself and his team.

Edited November 16, 2021 by wood

[Kdub 498]

I just came to say fuck Max and the Dutch

[Anton Chigurh 3,318]

Pretty salty in here today.

[utee94 15,742]

25 minutes ago, wood said:

No it hasn't. Drivers have been penalized for it multiple times, but not consistently or often enough - to the point that it's become generally common practice. It wasn't even a thing until the FIA mandated paved runoffs. It certainly wasn't all that common back when Lewis did it to Nico & Nico did it back to Lewis.

And it's perfectly relevant to the discussion. Max should probably have been penalized in Brazil, but Lulu also should have been penalized back then at COTA, just as I said at the time. 

I'm  in favor of turning all of the current runoff areas into magma pits.  That ought to keep the drivers on track.