Formula 1 2021

[52-80 19183]

39 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Guess I'm hopeless. I see him as aggressive. I see Hamilton as procedural. Two different ways to skin a cat. That's not to say he could do something in the future that may change my mind -- he definitely is on the edge and it always feels likes he is about to do something.

Divebombs work if you can make the corner. If you scoot in and slide off the end, thats not aggressive, thats XBOX. 
 

People can cite Hamilton-Albon, but with Max its with every driver on every track. Reputations arent conjured from thin air. 

[Goofyboy 3293]

Exactly. Max drives in real life like I do on PlayStation.

[Levi 2586]

 

 

 Toto Twitter is pretty good right now 

[Ghost of LL 15539]

I don't think FIA should be racing in Saudi Arabia to begin with.  But if we're going to race in Saudi Arabia, then Lewis Hamilton winning in a pride helmet is *chef's kiss*.

As to the merits of the course, I started by hating this track for its lack of passing opportunities.  But damned if I didn't end up kind of liking it.  There were some opportunities for passing (whether there were enough is a different discussion).  But the narrowness of it added quite a lot of drama for the penultimate race of the season.

[kevwun 15802]

It’s not a good race track if they can’t got 10 laps without a wreck.  Also Hamilton has a rocket ship right now.  Setting fastest laps with a busted front wing.

Edited December 5, 2021 by kevwun

[Doc Sam Beckett 5793]

7 minutes ago, kevwun said:

It’s not a good race track if they can’t got 10 laps without a wreck.  Also Hamilton has a rocket ship right now.  Setting fastest laps with a busted front wing.

So what you're saying is Maximilian isn't going to be able to break up the Merc run and win this damn thing with his precision driving? 

[Ghost of LL 15539]

9 minutes ago, kevwun said:

It’s not a good race track if they can’t got 10 laps without a wreck.  Also Hamilton has a rocket ship right now.  Setting fastest laps with a busted front wing.

It's not a good racetrack.  It's kind of a fun racetrack for the penultimate race of the season when the two top drivers are that close in the championship.  It's a racetrack that encourages reckless behavior. 

That's not great for the drivers, teams, or traditional racing fans.  But for those of us who are in it for the excitement, it's kind of a fun track.

[52-80 19183]

14 minutes ago, kevwun said:

It’s not a good race track if they can’t got 10 laps without a wreck.  Also Hamilton has a rocket ship right now.  Setting fastest laps with a busted front wing.

Most of the front wing structure was intact, for flowy circuit, with low fuel

[Anton Chigurh 3319]

This fucking guy. No actual change to the race order, though.

[G650 14263]

Shit. Heel.

[ConferenceRoom 6144]

I can’t wait to get Singapore back on the menu.

[52-80 19183]

The 10s penalty outs him 4th behind Ocon and -6 pts?

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, Anton Chigurh said:

This fucking guy. No actual change to the race order, though.

Wait, doesn't this contradict what Hamilton was saying? He said he had no idea what was going on. This says it was obvious that he didn't want to pass before the DRS detection. Which is it?

[Guest]

Helicopter view of the "brake check." Don't get me wrong --I can see all the reason to be mad about Max going aggressive in the corners. I just don't see him at fault here, even if he hit the brakes. Hamilton is just tailgating him as he slows instead of going around him. Seems clear that Hamilton is trying to play the DRS detection game too and rides up on his ass instead of just overtaking when he could. Max gets frustrated and stomps the brake cause LH won't go around.  To me, saying the LH didn't know what was going on seems like BS.

https://streamja.com/wkvbo

I'd also like to see where Verstappen went wide on the same corner a littler later. Seems like he may have been pushed out but it was never mentioned.


 

Edited December 5, 2021 by FirstTimeCaller

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Ghost of LL said:

I don't think FIA should be racing in Saudi Arabia to begin with.  But if we're going to race in Saudi Arabia, then Lewis Hamilton winning in a pride helmet is *chef's kiss*.

Would have been baller if he didn't accept the trophy. He had the helmet and made some press statements, which is more than anyone not named Vettel did. I assume he can't realistically boycott the race, but refusing the trophy would have sent a huge message.

[52-80 19183]

Im riding on 235mm Pilot Sport 4S and if i stand on the brakes from highway speeds, itll barely crack 1G

Maxs unexpected (by definition) 2.4G brake check in the middle of the straight should be grounds for disqualification. 

[RPM 26323]

That's BS to penalize him because Ham couldn't overtake without plowing into him. But it's Merc and Ham so they do what Merc wants. Hamilton pushes people off track all the time claiming position, yet when he challenges and gets the same it's bloody murder. I'm tired of hearing him claim priority. All things being equal, he'd be Top 5, no podium at best.

[Guest]

Pulling some stills for discussion. In doing so, just realized that there was a moment late in the race where Mercedes got a call from the FIA that Hamilton was borderline black and white flag for pushing Verstappen off. Missed that during the race.

Anyway, here is some frame by frame from Ocon during the restart. I believe this is where Max got the 5-second penalty, right? It's definitely Hamilton's corner, but it's damn sure that he's not trying to make it either, but keep Verstappen off. I also love the first picture with Bottas almost diving into Max. Verstappen is super aggressive, but to say that Hamilton is squeaky clean seems off to me. Two bad-ass racers going at each other... aggressively.

[Guest]

Watching the onboards of the crash -- literally one second after the crash the race engineer comes on telling Lewis "They are asking Max to swap positions."

Hamilton seems to have had no idea what was going on and just slowed down behind Verstappen for some weird reason. Max left him space, but could have definitely been more to the right.

Edited December 6, 2021 by FirstTimeCaller

[Chewbacca 7780]

That's BS to penalize him because Ham couldn't overtake without plowing into him. But it's Merc and Ham so they do what Merc wants. Hamilton pushes people off track all the time claiming position, yet when he challenges and gets the same it's bloody murder. I'm tired of hearing him claim priority. All things being equal, he'd be Top 5, no podium at best.

Dude, Max fucking brake checked him on a straight when he was supposed to give up the position, and then he didn't give up the position after contract was made. Bullshit move.

[RPM 26323]

1 minute ago, Chewbacca said:

Dude, Max fucking brake checked him on a straight when he was supposed to give up the position, and then he didn't give up the position after contract was made. Bullshit move.

Nope

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Chewbacca said:

31 minutes ago, RPM said:

That's BS to penalize him because Ham couldn't overtake without plowing into him. But it's Merc and Ham so they do what Merc wants. Hamilton pushes people off track all the time claiming position, yet when he challenges and gets the same it's bloody murder. I'm tired of hearing him claim priority. All things being equal, he'd be Top 5, no podium at best.

Dude, Max fucking brake checked him on a straight when he was supposed to give up the position, and then he didn't give up the position after contract was made. Bullshit move.

I don't understand why Lewis is just tailgating him. The onboards you can't see the brake check. It doesn't look like he suddenly slams on the brakes or anything from either driver cam. Still, the telemetry doesn't lie.

But why would LH just be sitting there behind him? From the onboards, Max let off the gas and started downshifting five seconds before the impact. Was LH going to get out change the tire if Max had a flat or something? 

[Kdub 498]

Hahahah, fuck Max and fuck the Dutch too. Max is a reckless driving POS. Fuck that twatwaffle

[Kdub 498]

12 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

I don't understand why Lewis is just tailgating him. The onboards you can't see the brake check. It doesn't look like he suddenly slams on the brakes or anything from either driver cam. Still, the telemetry doesn't lie.

But why would LH just be sitting there behind him? From the onboards, Max let off the gas and started downshifting five seconds before the impact. Was LH going to get out change the tire if Max had a flat or something? 

If you watch the replay, they show the onboard from max, as he's slowing down he slightly turning his wheel left to the middle of the track and then hits his brakes. It's a brake check. So again fuck Max

[Kdub 498]

Then Max acting like a bitch on the podium. You're a dirty driving fuck nut Max, be a man and take your medicine

[Chewbacca 7780]

Nope

2.4G deceleration. He brake checked him.

[Chewbacca 7780]

I don't understand why Lewis is just tailgating him. The onboards you can't see the brake check. It doesn't look like he suddenly slams on the brakes or anything from either driver cam. Still, the telemetry doesn't lie.
But why would LH just be sitting there behind him? From the onboards, Max let off the gas and started downshifting five seconds before the impact. Was LH going to get out change the tire if Max had a flat or something? 

Lewis didn't know what was going on. He heard from his engineer right after the contact.

[Guest]

So later on when Hamilton passes Lewis for the lead at the same corner where they wrecked earlier... it's very weird.

1. I don't hear any onboard radio telling Max to let Lewis by. In fact, right as he is being passed, the race engineer tells him he has a five second penalty. Also nothing that I heard from LH's engineer either.

2. I don't know if Max is letting him pass or not. The first time he downshifted and let off the throttle. Here he downshifts one gear to 7th a little early and the harvesting lights start flashing. It's a weird mix of him slowing slightly and Hamilton brakes way later.

3. Max is in the same position of the track (right side, but middle-ish) where Hamilton hit him before. Here he takes full advantage of Max even slightly slowing.

4. Hamilton goes way deep to push Max out wide. If you don't like Max "dive bombing" then you gotta have an issue with this. 

 

For comparison, here is Lewis' line on the very next lap:

 

Max POV:

 

After this pass Lewis' team got the notice from the FIA about potentially being black and white flagged.

Edited December 6, 2021 by FirstTimeCaller

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

27 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

I don't understand why Lewis is just tailgating him. The onboards you can't see the brake check. It doesn't look like he suddenly slams on the brakes or anything from either driver cam. Still, the telemetry doesn't lie.
But why would LH just be sitting there behind him? From the onboards, Max let off the gas and started downshifting five seconds before the impact. Was LH going to get out change the tire if Max had a flat or something? 

Lewis didn't know what was going on. He heard from his engineer right after the contact.

So he has to be told to pass a car ahead of him? I'm watching the onboards. I know that right as they wreck, he is getting the message. But why is he just tailgating behind him for five seconds instead of going around him? Later in the race Max slows and LH doesn't hesitate for a moment to take advantage. 

In this instance, he just decided to hang out behind him.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Kdub said:

Then Max acting like a bitch on the podium. You're a dirty driving fuck nut Max, be a man and take your medicine

Honest question -- what is he supposed to do? I doubt Hamilton wants a champagne shower from Max. Given how bitter that race was between the two, I think just making a quick exit was the right move.

[Guest]

Also, anyone seen Wood? Worry he might have had a heart attack after this one.

[XYZ 2154]

35 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

From the onboards, Max let off the gas and started downshifting five seconds before the impact.

This right here.

[Kdub 498]

12 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

So later on when Hamilton passes Lewis for the lead at the same corner where they wrecked earlier... it's very weird.

1. I don't hear any onboard radio telling Max to let Lewis by. In fact, right as he is being passed, the race engineer tells him he has a five second penalty. Also nothing that I heard from LH's engineer either.

2. I don't know if Max is letting him pass or not. The first time he downshifted and let off the throttle. Here he downshifts one gear to 7th a little early and the harvesting lights start flashing. It's a weird mix of him slowing slightly and Hamilton brakes way later.

3. Max is in the same position of the track (right side, but middle-ish) where Hamilton hit him before. Here he takes full advantage of Max even slightly slowing.

4. Hamilton goes way deep to push Max out wide. If you don't like Max "dive bombing" then you gotta have an issue with this. 

 

For comparison, here is Lewis' line on the very next lap:

 

Max POV:

 

After this pass Lewis' team got the notice from the FIA about potentially being black and white flagged.

Max brakes laye again, can't make the corner, he needs to learn that you have to back out once awhile, he just assumes people will get out the way even when they have position

[kevwun 15802]

I think Lewis had a brain cramp and just ran in to the back of him or he thought Max was slowing down because of debris on the track or something like that.

Edited December 6, 2021 by kevwun

[Chewbacca 7780]

So he has to be told to pass a car ahead of him? I'm watching the onboards. I know that right as they wreck, he is getting the message. But why is he just tailgating behind him for five seconds instead of going around him? Later in the race Max slows and LH doesn't hesitate for a moment to take advantage. 
In this instance, he just decided to hang out behind him.

5 seconds? Maybe 1 second.

[Chewbacca 7780]

Honest question -- what is he supposed to do? I doubt Hamilton wants a champagne shower from Max. Given how bitter that race was between the two, I think just making a quick exit was the right move.

Is not even champagne in the ME. It's rose water.

[vicerous 169]

4 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

So he has to be told to pass a car ahead of him? I'm watching the onboards. I know that right as they wreck, he is getting the message. But why is he just tailgating behind him for five seconds instead of going around him? Later in the race Max slows and LH doesn't hesitate for a moment to take advantage. 

In this instance, he just decided to hang out behind him.

There's nothing routine in that situation, especially when you're trailing a child who will literally do anything to take or hold onto a position. Tell me when was the last time you saw the race leader give up a position unannounced in middle of the racing line. Lets remember that the whole situation could have easily been avoided if Max was capable of keeping his car on the fucking track.

There's a fine line between aggression and the bullshit Senna et al. are celebrated for to this day. It's shitty driving and I'm sick of Max getting away with this petulant shit race after race. Horner then has the balls to bring Whiting's name into this mess - he's lucky Masi is so spineless. The whole RB team is an embarrassment. 

[G650 14263]

6 minutes ago, vicerous said:

The whole RB team is an embarrassment

Has been.

[Anton Chigurh 3319]

Hey, it’s Vicerous! Been a while.

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

31 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

So he has to be told to pass a car ahead of him? I'm watching the onboards. I know that right as they wreck, he is getting the message. But why is he just tailgating behind him for five seconds instead of going around him? Later in the race Max slows and LH doesn't hesitate for a moment to take advantage. 
In this instance, he just decided to hang out behind him.

5 seconds? Maybe 1 second.

https://streamja.com/wkvbo

It's five seconds. You can see the lights go on when he's slowed as it is harvesting energy. Then he just camped out behind him. Should Max be "brake checking"? Hell no. But why the hell is he just camped behind him? The best I can guess is brain cramp.

[VABuckeye 2472]

4 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

https://streamja.com/wkvbo

It's five seconds. You can see the lights go on when he's slowed as it is harvesting energy. Then he just camped out behind him. Should Max be "brake checking"? Hell no. But why the hell is he just camped behind him? The best I can guess is brain cramp.

It’s in the report. Neither driver wanted to be the first to cross the DRS detection zone. 

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, vicerous said:

Tell me when was the last time you saw the race leader give up a position unannounced in middle of the racing line.

Unannounced? Max was told 20 second before to give the spot back. Merc didn't say anything until right as the crash was happening. Pretty much the same exact thing happened just a few laps later with no announcement again, and Hamilton flew by Max with no issue at all.

Look, I wouldn't dare argue that Max isn't aggressive. He absolutely is. But rolling out that Max is crazy and Hamilton is innocent of everything gets old. There were two instances above where Max is aggressive trying to go around the outside where there isn't room... and Hamilton is just as aggressive in pushing him off track. The FIA even radioed Mercedes about it. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, VABuckeye said:

It’s in the report. Neither driver wanted to be the first to cross the DRS detection zone. 

Yeah I read that too. Watching the onboards, I don't buy it actually. LH seemed genuinely confused and his team didn't tell him what was up until it was too late. My feeling is Max slowed down, LH had a brain cramp as it's not a common situation, and just sat behind him for some reason.

Or maybe LH is a good actor and fooled me.

[elfenix 34322]

this is the same stellar merc radio crew that left ham out there nearly to be run into by mazespin and another.  they were shit all weekend. 

[dieucla98 2942]

Given the state of the standings, this was the worst track to have on the docket at this point. The design, the walls, the speed... This is a track designed for manufactured drama. Which we got.

 What we didn't get is a real race. 

[wood 11227]

11 hours ago, XYZ said:

That’s a bad comment and you should feel bad. That street circuit is terrible. Red flag every other lap because somebody smashed a wall. Fun.

I don't feel bad, and I'm right. It's not a perfect track by any means, but this isn't the only track with walls on both sides, and I haven't heard all this crying about them.

And you're exaggerating pretty massively with the "Red flag every other lap because somebody smashed a wall" nonsense. There was exactly one crash involving a car that hit the wall without contact from another car putting it there - Mick's, which was the first of the race. So, you know, stfu, dumbass. You should feel bad for crying about it on the internet like a little bitch and fabricating stupid shit trying to back it up.

[wood 11227]

11 hours ago, RPM said:

And no penalty to Lewis for f'ing up the formation lap?

You new here? j/k

And yeah, I know it was a restart and not an official formation lap, but that just exposes the FIA dropping the ball when they added the restart rule. If that's gonna be the rule on formation laps at the start, then it should be the rule every time the field laps to form the grid at any time, including restarts.

Edited December 6, 2021 by wood

[wood 11227]

11 hours ago, elfenix said:

max told to give position back, lewis slows down too, probably doesn't know what is going on, and then that happens

Seriously. WTF? All the commentators'attempts to explain it away by saying "Lewis was confused" just come off as completely ridiculous. If I'm in the faster car racing a guy hard and all of a sudden he slows & moves off the racing line, I do.not.give.a.fuck why he's slowing. I'm fucking blowing past his ass, and it would only take about 0.00000000000000001 second to make that decision. One thing that's 100% certain is that I wouldn't slow down too. Di Resta was just as puzzled by it as I was, and he kept trying to get someone to make sense of it, and of course nobody could.

I mean, honestly, what the hell. Whether or not Lewis knew Max was giving the place back was completely irrelevant. We've seen literally hundreds of times where guys gave positions back all on their own and nobody ran into them.

Edited December 6, 2021 by wood

[wood 11227]

11 hours ago, elfenix said:

5 second penalty and have to give it back?

Yeah I've never seen that one before ... and of course, the first time I see it, it's Lewis who gains from it. Either he gives the position back or there's a penalty. Not both. It was beyond stupid.
 

[wood 11227]

5 hours ago, Chewbacca said:

6 hours ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

I don't understand why Lewis is just tailgating him. The onboards you can't see the brake check. It doesn't look like he suddenly slams on the brakes or anything from either driver cam. Still, the telemetry doesn't lie.
But why would LH just be sitting there behind him? From the onboards, Max let off the gas and started downshifting five seconds before the impact. Was LH going to get out change the tire if Max had a flat or something? 

Lewis didn't know what was going on. He heard from his engineer right after the contact.

This is a nonsensical argument I keep hearing. Lewis needs to be told to pass a car he's been trying to pass, which is slowing & moving off the racing line? LMFAO.