Formula 1 2021

[wood 11798]

5 hours ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

So later on when Hamilton passes Lewis for the lead at the same corner where they wrecked earlier... it's very weird.

1. I don't hear any onboard radio telling Max to let Lewis by. In fact, right as he is being passed, the race engineer tells him he has a five second penalty. Also nothing that I heard from LH's engineer either.

2. I don't know if Max is letting him pass or not. The first time he downshifted and let off the throttle. Here he downshifts one gear to 7th a little early and the harvesting lights start flashing. It's a weird mix of him slowing slightly and Hamilton brakes way later.

3. Max is in the same position of the track (right side, but middle-ish) where Hamilton hit him before. Here he takes full advantage of Max even slightly slowing.

4. Hamilton goes way deep to push Max out wide. If you don't like Max "dive bombing" then you gotta have an issue with this. 

Yep. Basically, starting the last few years, basically, if the inside car can push the other guy wide enough while keeping his car on track, he gets away with it - except when he's penalized for it, which isn't all that often. And it's complete horseshit. If this is the way it's gonna be, F1 is fucked, as all you'll have to do on the inside is run attacking cars right off the track.

This bs is why some drivers and a whole lot of fans have been asking for clarity on pushing people off.

[wood 11798]

5 hours ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Also, anyone seen Wood? Worry he might have had a heart attack after this one.

Nah, I'm good. Didn't get to watch it til late tonight. Awesome entertainment!

I rarely get to watch the races live. I always thought when you retired, you were supposed to have more free time. Doesn't seem like that's the case at all.

Edited December 6, 2021 by wood

[wood 11798]

5 hours ago, vicerous said:

There's nothing routine in that situation, especially when you're trailing a child who will literally do anything to take or hold onto a position. Tell me when was the last time you saw the race leader give up a position unannounced in middle of the racing line. Lets remember that the whole situation could have easily been avoided if Max was capable of keeping his car on the fucking track.

There's a fine line between aggression and the bullshit Senna et al. are celebrated for to this day. It's shitty driving and I'm sick of Max getting away with this petulant shit race after race. Horner then has the balls to bring Whiting's name into this mess - he's lucky Masi is so spineless. The whole RB team is an embarrassment. 

Eh, no. Max had moved to the right of the racing line. Lewis had plenty of room to fly right by him.

[wood 11798]

5 hours ago, VABuckeye said:

It’s in the report. Neither driver wanted to be the first to cross the DRS detection zone. 

So? Max was told to let Lewis by. He tried, and Lewis declined. That's not on Max. Once he did that and Lewis chose not to pass, Max shouldn't have had to give it back, as he'd done what he was supposed to do.  As for it being "unannounced", we see it all the time. In fact, you see far more positions given back without any order to the driver than with an order to the driver.

Edited December 6, 2021 by wood

[wood 11798]

5 hours ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Unannounced? Max was told 20 second before to give the spot back. Merc didn't say anything until right as the crash was happening. Pretty much the same exact thing happened just a few laps later with no announcement again, and Hamilton flew by Max with no issue at all.

Look, I wouldn't dare argue that Max isn't aggressive. He absolutely is. But rolling out that Max is crazy and Hamilton is innocent of everything gets old. There were two instances above where Max is aggressive trying to go around the outside where there isn't room... and Hamilton is just as aggressive in pushing him off track. The FIA even radioed Mercedes about it. 

Exactly. 

[52-80 19382]

Lewis is 3rd most experienced racer on the grid he knew exactly what he was doing camping behind Max.  BUT, that's not an excuse to pulse on the brakes and move across the track while racing, AND the whole situation wouldve been null if he hadnt kamikazed his way into the corner.  2 vs 1 in terms of culpability.  That's why he was penalized. 

It was summed up pretty succinctly on the FIA report not sure why it needs to be rehashed

[ChickenSandwich 10004]

13 hours ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Watching the onboards of the crash -- literally one second after the crash the race engineer comes on telling Lewis "They are asking Max to swap positions."

Hamilton seems to have had no idea what was going on and just slowed down behind Verstappen for some weird reason. Max left him space, but could have definitely been more to the right.

Radio calls shown on tv are often delayed and not real time. 

[NoName 17321]

18 hours ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Hamilton might be the luckiest person I've ever seen. Run into the back and still be able to finish the race and not lose the front wing? Not even arguing fault, but just to have the contact and still be able to set fastest laps is insane.

Everything you need to know about Mercedes and them "solving aero" was on the board yesterday lol

Hamilton keeps ripping off fastest laps with a broken front wing - that they said costs him 4 tenths PER LAP.

That said, he is both incredibly good and the luckiest fucking guy in F1 based on his DNF record alone (since 2017, Botas has 10 DNFs vs Lewis 2)

[kevwun 16462]

Yeah, it's not aero, it's raw power.  When he goes full throttle, he can blow by anyone else like they're standing still.

[vicerous 169]

7 hours ago, wood said:

Eh, no. Max had moved to the right of the racing line. Lewis had plenty of room to fly right by him.

Maybe he was confused? Maybe he got slow radio intel? Regardless, Lewis is obviously under no obligation to make the pass before the DRS line if he saw it as a direct disadvantage. Max was penalized for standing on the brakes in an unsafe manner, not for Lewis' decision - I don't think that's debatable. 

Worth noting that IF his DRS game worked it would have resulted in yet another penalty for gaining advantage while surrendering position. I'm losing count here. 

And once again lets remember that this incident stems from Max missing a corner entirely on his own, re-joining the track in an unsafe manner, blocking his championship rival and gaining a lasting advantage.

[NoName 17321]

26 minutes ago, kevwun said:

Yeah, it's not aero, it's raw power.  When he goes full throttle, he can blow by anyone else like they're standing still.

sorry, i was saying "solving aero" (with the quotes) as in bending the rules in some way.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Radio calls shown on tv are often delayed and not real time. 

This is the race feeds from F1 TV. Lewis' radio message about being brake checked came on immediately after it happened. It was real time.

[wood 11798]

1 hour ago, vicerous said:

Maybe he was confused? Maybe he got slow radio intel? Regardless, Lewis is obviously under no obligation to make the pass before the DRS line if he saw it as a direct disadvantage. Max was penalized for standing on the brakes in an unsafe manner, not for Lewis' decision - I don't think that's debatable. 

Worth noting that IF his DRS game worked it would have resulted in yet another penalty for gaining advantage while surrendering position. I'm losing count here. 

And once again lets remember that this incident stems from Max missing a corner entirely on his own, re-joining the track in an unsafe manner, blocking his championship rival and gaining a lasting advantage.

If Max brake-checked Lewis and got a penal;ty for it, I'm fine with the penalty. But that's separate from what I'm talking about. The collision would never have happened in the first place if Lewis had just gone by like he should have. The whole "Lewis was confused" thing is an idiotic, bullshit argument. I mean ... when the fuck did anyone in the history of any kind of racing need to "know what was going on" when the guy ahead slowed and moved over? If I thought about it at all (I probably wouldn't) my first thought would probably be that he had a problem, or that he's letting me back in front because he just overtook off the track. Either way, the result would be the same, as I'd blow right on past his unlucky ass with zero hesitation, and keep moving.

Re: Lewis not having to pass when the driver in front slows & moves over to let him by: by the same token, the driver in front has no obligation to let the guy by at a spot that's better for the guy behind. He's only obligated to let him by. That's all. How long do you think Max should have to move over and slow down when the guy behind doesn't pass? AFAIK we've never seen anything like this, and we wouldn't be seeing it now if not for DRS, but once Max moved over and slowed the way he did, he had fulfilled his obligation to let Lewis by.

[Guest]

Kind of a different topic, but tied in a little -- Why are Lewis' radio transmissions always so breathless and stressed? He gets by far the most "radio" time on the broadcasts and it always sounds like he just ran a lap before coming on the radio. And I'm not even talking specifically about this past race.

Out of the car he looks/sounds absolutely fine, but in the car he sounds like he is just hyperventilating the entire race.

[Chewbacca 7843]

Gotta laugh at the Max fans covering for him acting like a shit on the track again.  I'm not a big Lewis guy, but at this point I think I want him to win the WDC just to make the Max fans' heads explode.  

[wood 11798]

10 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Gotta laugh at the Max fans covering for him acting like a shit on the track again.  I'm not a big Lewis guy, but at this point I think I want him to win the WDC just to make the Max fans' heads explode.  

I gotta laugh at all the Lewis fans making ridiculous excuses for him like "He was just so confused OMG!!!1!!11!!".

[Chewbacca 7843]

Just now, wood said:

I gotta laugh at all the Lewis fans making ridiculous excuses for him like "He was just so confused OMG!!!1!!11!!".

Nothing Lewis did was dangerous.  Can't say the same about Max.

[wood 11798]

9 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Nothing Lewis did was dangerous.  Can't say the same about Max.

Getting right on the gearbox of an obviously-slowing Max isn't dangerous (or foolish)? I think he showed just how dangerous it was. Both drivers were playing games. The "Lewis was confused" trope just makes people look stupid for saying it.

[ConferenceRoom 6215]

1 hour ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Kind of a different topic, but tied in a little -- Why are Lewis' radio transmissions always so breathless and stressed? He gets by far the most "radio" time on the broadcasts and it always sounds like he just ran a lap before coming on the radio. And I'm not even talking specifically about this past race.

Out of the car he looks/sounds absolutely fine, but in the car he sounds like he is just hyperventilating the entire race.

Do the teams have biometrics? Senna was wired up for one of the Brazilian grands prix and he was consistently up near 150-160 for the whole race. The cars are a little easier to drive these days but I'm sure each driver is still putting out some effort to get around the track for 1.5-2 hours. It does seem like Lewis handles those stresses differently than other drivers. Maybe he's just constantly amping himself up to stay on edge? 

As an aside, Buzz Aldrin's average heart rate during Apollo 11's launch was 88 bpm. What the fuck. 

[Chewbacca 7843]

3 minutes ago, wood said:

Getting right on the gearbox of an obviously-slowing Max isn't dangerous (or foolish)? I think he showed just how dangerous it was. Both drivers were playing games. The "Lewis was confused" trope just makes people look stupid for saying it.

Lulz.  Shit like this is exactly why I want Lewis to win.  You can't even admit that brake checking with a car right behind you is dangerous.  You'd rather try and make it a 'both sides' thing when it clearly was not.  That's why Max got a 10 second penalty for that stunt.  

[ConferenceRoom 6215]

7 minutes ago, wood said:

Getting right on the gearbox of an obviously-slowing Max isn't dangerous (or foolish)? I think he showed just how dangerous it was. Both drivers were playing games. The "Lewis was confused" trope just makes people look stupid for saying it.

Questionable, sure. But come on, Max had no less than three moments in yesterday's race that one can point to and say unsportsmanlike at best and dangerous at worst. It's been like that his entire career. 

[wood 11798]

4 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Lulz.  Shit like this is exactly why I want Lewis to win.  You can't even admit that brake checking with a car right behind you is dangerous.  You'd rather try and make it a 'both sides' thing when it clearly was not.  That's why Max got a 10 second penalty for that stunt.  

Bullshit. I said right up front that I had no problem with Max's penalty for brake-checking. Try reading the fucking posts before you say stupid shit. And it was both drivers. Lewis was playing games every bit as much as Max was. Otherwise Max can't even try the brake-check.

[wood 11798]

15 minutes ago, ConferenceRoom said:

Questionable, sure. But come on, Max had no less than three moments in yesterday's race that one can point to and say unsportsmanlike at best and dangerous at worst. It's been like that his entire career. 

Sure, and and right off the top of my head I can think of at least 3 or 4 from Lewis yesterday. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by wood

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Chewbacca said:

Lulz.  Shit like this is exactly why I want Lewis to win.  You can't even admit that brake checking with a car right behind you is dangerous.  You'd rather try and make it a 'both sides' thing when it clearly was not.  That's why Max got a 10 second penalty for that stunt.  

I'll fully admit that Max is aggressive. He is also the more aggressive of the two drivers. I just don't get why Lewis has this squeaky clean image and Max gets shit on constantly. 

Remember, Hamilton got a 10-second penalty and 2 penalty points for putting max into the barriers at Silverstone. Then he danced around with the British flag like he was a 1980's wrestler while Max went to the hospital. No one here mentions that. There were at least two times yesterday where Hamilton took a crazy line to 100% keep Max off the track. The FIA even called Mercedes telling them they were close to a black and white flag.

Yet Max gets called "shit heel" and "dangerous" etc. Hamilton? Crickets...

[Chewbacca 7843]

6 minutes ago, wood said:

Bullshit. I said right up front that I had no problem with Max's penalty for brake-checking. Try reading the fucking posts before you say stupid shit. And it was both drivers. Lewis was playing games every bit as much as Max was. Otherwise Max can't even try the brake-check.

Sure, they were both playing games.  That's what drivers in a title fight do.  But only Max resorted to dangerous stunts.  I like the games.  I like the race craft and strategy.  I do not like blatantly unsafe maneuvers.  

[52-80 19382]

it would be peak drama if bottas becomes the title decider next week.  like he slots between the 2 driver and all the tactics hinges on what he chooses to or not to do.

they really better sweeten the pot for him

[52-80 19382]

3 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

I just don't get why Lewis has this squeaky clean image and Max gets shit on constantly...

Remember, Hamilton got a 10-second penalty and 2 penalty points for putting max into the barriers at Silverstone.

Because that's one of the FEW examples you can cite.  And then Albon... and then?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, 52-80 said:

it would be peak drama if bottas becomes the title decider next week.  like he slots between the 2 driver and all the tactics hinges on what he chooses to or not to do.

they really better sweeten the pot for him

Lol. I actually think he gets a bad wrap. Seems like everything he does is for the team, despite people saying he goes and does his own thing. I think he knows his place in the order and does what he can. But he just makes mistakes and can't drive anywhere like Lewis can. It's amazing to see Bottas struggle to get through the field while Hamilton can just fly by people. 

[pops 7177]

All of the drama is essentially moot. Red bull fucked up going with the mediums. Even with all the yellows, Max's tires were shot. He had no chance.

There was a lot of weird shit,  but when hamilton bitched about going on hards his team was right when they told him they picked the correct tire. 

[wood 11798]

3 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

I'll fully admit that Max is aggressive. He is also the more aggressive of the two drivers. I just don't get why Lewis has this squeaky clean image and Max gets shit on constantly. 

Remember, Hamilton got a 10-second penalty and 2 penalty points for putting max into the barriers at Silverstone. Then he danced around with the British flag like he was a 1980's wrestler while Max went to the hospital. No one here mentions that. There were at least two times yesterday where Hamilton took a crazy line to 100% keep Max off the track. The FIA even called Mercedes telling them they were close to a black and white flag.

Yet Max gets called "shit heel" and "dangerous" etc. Hamilton? Crickets...

Exactly, and early in Lewis's career he took a lot of heat for dangerous driving as well, but a whole lot of people forget that shit, too. When he moved to the absolutely dominant car, he could afford to be much more 'by the book' for 8 years running. But he still pulls shit fairly frequently, and usually gets a slap on the wrist at worst.

[Chewbacca 7843]

1 minute ago, pops said:

All of the drama is essentially moot. Red bull fucked up going with the mediums. Even with all the yellows, Max's tires were shot. He had no chance.

There was a lot of weird shit,  but when hamilton bitched about going on hards his team was right when they told him they picked the correct tire. 

Yep, I remember that and was thinking at the end of the race that MB definitely had the better strategy yesterday.  Bottas was on mediums, though.  I wonder why they split the strategy like that?

[wood 11798]

2 minutes ago, pops said:

All of the drama is essentially moot. Red bull fucked up going with the mediums. Even with all the yellows, Max's tires were shot. He had no chance.

There was a lot of weird shit,  but when hamilton bitched about going on hards his team was right when they told him they picked the correct tire. 

Yep, and re: the bold bit: same shit, different GP.

[pops 7177]

3 minutes ago, wood said:

Yep, and re: the bold bit: same shit, different GP.

Don't disagree. I'm a Hamilton fan but became one when red bull and vettel were winning everything while fucking webber in the process. I fully get the hamilton hate. He can be a little bitch. But he's my little bitch so I just deal with it.  I honestly like toto more. His disdain of Horner makes me smile. 

[ConferenceRoom 6215]

Lewis and Nico in the first nighttime Bahrain race is a perfect example of racing that I don't think Max is capable of or at least hasn't shown that capability. The difference is reputation. 

[Anton Chigurh 3360]

Lewis and Nico in the first nighttime Bahrain race is a perfect example of racing that I don't think Max is capable of or at least hasn't shown that capability. The difference is reputation. 

Such a great battle. I actually have an art piece of that one.

[vicerous 169]

The amount of mental gymnastics & whataboutisms from the Max crowd in this thread is unbelievable absolutely 100% on-brand. Helmut & Horner have the whole lot thinking they're the victims week after week. 

[elfenix 34856]

5 hours ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Radio calls shown on tv are often delayed and not real time. 

while that is the case, from the later radio call where masi says, "don't you guys have other channels?" it's pretty clear they did not get the message to lewis in a timely fashion.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, vicerous said:

The amount of mental gymnastics & whataboutisms from the Max crowd in this thread is unbelievable absolutely 100% on-brand. Helmut & Horner have the whole lot thinking they're the victims week after week. 

Lol. I don't know what you want. Everyone seems to agree that Max is aggressive. Everyone agrees he shouldn't brake check. It's been repeated ad nauseum. 

But I also see Hamilton as aggressive as well. That seems to be the controversial part for reasons I don't understand. I guess because Max is aggressive attacking while Hamilton is normally aggressive in defending? No one can seem to admit that he drove Max off the track multiple times. And no one seems to want to admit that within this battle so far Hamilton has made by far the most dangerous move of the two drivers when at Silverstone.

To me, it's two extremely good drivers going at it for a world championship -- and they are both going all out. It's must-see TV.

I do think it needs to be reigned in some by the stewards, but to say Max is the only one to blame seems very odd. 

[elfenix 34856]

38 minutes ago, pops said:

Red bull fucked up going with the mediums.

i think that was a calculated gamble, give him better tires to get him in front of lewis and then pray for another red flag.  i don't think he was getting in front of lewis on hards. 

[wood 11798]

8 minutes ago, elfenix said:

i think that was a calculated gamble, give him better tires to get him in front of lewis and then pray for another red flag.  i don't think he was getting in front of lewis on hards. 

Yeah that's what I figured too, but once it didn't work out that way, the Mediums were never going to get the win. The Merc advantage was too great. They were pretty much screwed, strategy-wise.

[faps 818]

So how does Abu Dhabi go down? Them crashing themselves out or one of them crashing out the other? I really wonder if that race ends with both cars still running.

[wood 11798]

5 minutes ago, faps said:

So how does Abu Dhabi go down? Them crashing themselves out or one of them crashing out the other? I really wonder if that race ends with both cars still running.

Most likely outcomes imho...

- both cars still running at the end

- one or both DNF for other reasons

- they crash each other out

- one crashes the other out

 

[Amos Moses 795]

You almost have to hope one car runs away with it to avoid any shenanigans as I can’t say I trust everyone to behave.  And by everyone I mean Max.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Amos Moses

[Guest]

I just get the strong feeling that Hamilton wins fairly easy. Since Brazil it just seems like he has the better car by a decent margin. 

 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Amos Moses said:

You almost have to hope one car runs away with it to avoid any shenanigans as I can’t say I trust everyone to behave.  And by everyone I mean Max.

All Max has to do is get in front of Hamilton and then slow down. Then he can nurse his tires to the end. We now know that LH won't make a pass.

[52-80 19382]

Just now, FirstTimeCaller said:

All Max has to do is get in front of Hamilton and then slow down. Then he can nurse his tires to the end. We now know that LH won't make a pass.

thats when they execute order 66: the bottasnado

[wood 11798]

1 minute ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

All Max has to do is get in front of Hamilton and then slow down. Then he can nurse his tires to the end. We now know that LH won't make a pass.

I dunno. Those straights ...

[52-80 19382]

34 minutes ago, wood said:

Most likely outcomes imho...

- both cars still running at the end

- one or both DNF for other reasons

- they crash each other out

- one crashes the other out

 

really covering all the bases there

[Updawg 2415]

I just get the strong feeling that Hamilton wins fairly easy. Since Brazil it just seems like he has the better car by a decent margin. 
 

Unless something odd happens this what I think will happen. The Mercedes just has too much speed to fight off.

[Anton Chigurh 3360]

All Max has to do is get in front of Hamilton and then slow down. Then he can nurse his tires to the end. We now know that LH won't make a pass.