Sell me a luxury sedan

[Guest Lobo]

Somewhat related, but it's just crazy to think that in 2021, Lincoln, Chrysler, and Buick...three of the stalwart manufacturers of great American sedans for over 100 years...next year will offer a grand total of 1 sedan option between the 3 of them...the Chrysler 300.  That's it, nothing by minivans and crossovers.   Ford will offer 1 sedan, Dodge will offer 1 sedan (across all sizes and price ranges).  the only two brands offering more than one 4-door model are Chevrolet and Cadillac.  I'm guessing by the end of the 2020's, there'll be no domestic sedans.  As to the point of the OP, in terms of luxury sedans...we'll still continue to see options from M-B, BMW, Audi, whatever the Brits are doing, and then everything coming out of Japan.  Crazy times though, only a handful of American premium sedans still being made.  

[conVINCEd 21469]

3 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Somewhat related, but it's just crazy to think that in 2021, Lincoln, Chrysler, and Buick...three of the stalwart manufacturers of great American sedans for over 100 years...next year will offer a grand total of 1 sedan option between the 3 of them...the Chrysler 300.  That's it, nothing by minivans and crossovers.   Ford will offer 1 sedan, Dodge will offer 1 sedan (across all sizes and price ranges).  the only two brands offering more than one 4-door model are Chevrolet and Cadillac.  I'm guessing by the end of the 2020's, there'll be no domestic sedans.  As to the point of the OP, in terms of luxury sedans...we'll still continue to see options from M-B, BMW, Audi, whatever the Brits are doing, and then everything coming out of Japan.  Crazy times though, only a handful of American premium sedans still being made.  

The people who buy American produced sedans are dead or dying.  My grandfathers, who both fought in the Pacific, made it a point of pride that they would never own a vehicle produced in Japan.  When I purchased a Toyota Supra in high school I pretty much committed treason in their eyes.  One only owned Cadillacs, one only owned Lincolns.  They’re dead now.  Their kids own a variety of Lexuses and Acuras and BMWs and Mercedes.

[Dahobbs 17692]

24 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

The people who buy American produced sedans are dead or dying.  My grandfathers, who both fought in the Pacific, made it a point of pride that they would never own a vehicle produced in Japan.  When I purchased a Toyota Supra in high school I pretty much committed treason in their eyes.  One only owned Cadillacs, one only owned Lincolns.  They’re dead now.  Their kids own a variety of Lexuses and Acuras and BMWs and Mercedes.

? It is because the sedan in general is dying and isn't as profitable. It isn't because people refuse to buy American. Other countries will continue to make sedans and occasionally import them here because other countries populations still buy sedans. 

[52-80 19263]

I blame all of you people who own trucks and SUVs for purely urban commuting

[msbesq 387]

Love my Acura TLX

[tbone_ 14181]

I blame all of you people who own trucks and SUVs for purely urban commuting

Why? It’s nice to be able to load up some shit from time to time.

[conVINCEd 21469]

3 hours ago, 52-80 said:

I blame all of you people who own trucks and SUVs for purely urban commuting

This is surly good sir, anything smaller than a Tahoe is insufficient for the weekly trips to the liquor store.

[Nueces River Rat 5539]

10 hours ago, conVINCEd said:

The people who buy American produced sedans are dead or dying.  My grandfathers, who both fought in the Pacific, made it a point of pride that they would never own a vehicle produced in Japan.  When I purchased a Toyota Supra in high school I pretty much committed treason in their eyes.  One only owned Cadillacs, one only owned Lincolns.  They’re dead now.  Their kids own a variety of Lexuses and Acuras and BMWs and Mercedes.

This is kind of true.   But I saw some of that demographic ease up on that attitude later in the 90s as a few of them finally decided to give the Camary and Accord a chance thanks to frustration with American brands. It might have helped that Toyota and Honda made a big deal back then to promote most of the models of those two vehicles were made in the US. 

[Nueces River Rat 5539]

9 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

? It is because the sedan in general is dying and isn't as profitable. It isn't because people refuse to buy American. Other countries will continue to make sedans and occasionally import them here because other countries populations still buy sedans. 

It’s not profitable and Ford even noted this when they announced they were scaling back.   As much as the BIg three tried to reverse perceptions pointing out quality reports showed some American four doors sedans were equal or even better than their foreign counterparts in whatever category, they just could not overcome the negative.   It’s the opposite in the pickup market.   Toyota and Nissan are making a nice product, but those who really use their trucks for pulling stuff, etc who have tried Toyota or Nissan full size trucks come back to Ford, GM or Ram.    

[elfenix 34338]

9 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

? It is because the sedan in general is dying and isn't as profitable. It isn't because people refuse to buy American. Other countries will continue to make sedans and occasionally import them here because other countries populations still buy sedans. 

when the LS400 came out, GM tore one apart and decided they couldn't build it.  sedans aren't profitable for them because they never could figure out how to build one that didn't need a stack of cash sitting on the hood to move. 

[TwiceHorn 31554]

6 minutes ago, elfenix said:

when the LS400 came out, GM tore one apart and decided they couldn't build it.  sedans aren't profitable for them because they never could figure out how to build one that didn't need a stack of cash sitting on the hood to move. 

Bah.  There's a lot of room between a Corolla and an LS400.

We make perfectly good sedans, 'muricans are just too stupid to buy them.  Half the SUVs on the market have less cargo room than a midsized sedan.

[tbone_ 14181]

Half the SUVs on the market have less cargo room than a midsized sedan.

You sure about that?

[TwiceHorn 31554]

3 minutes ago, tbone_ said:

 

You sure about that?

 

A goodly number of them are quite, quite small.

[Nueces River Rat 5539]

17 minutes ago, tbone_ said:

 

You sure about that?

 

This is what Nissan classifies as an SUV https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/crossovers-suvs/kicks.html?dcp=psn.58700004658437127&ds_rl=1254031&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIl_q0nove7QIViPDACh2zXAziEAAYAiAAEgIArvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Ford, GM and Jeep have comparable models along with the other foreign auto makers. They all have a model or two who might be slightly larger in cargo space than the one above, but still less space than a mid size to large four door.  It just seems to Detroit and the other automakers if it has a hatch, its and SUV now.  

Edited December 21, 2020 by Nueces River Rat

[TwiceHorn 31554]

8 minutes ago, Nueces River Rat said:

This is what Nissan classifies as an SUV https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/crossovers-suvs/kicks.html?dcp=psn.58700004658437127&ds_rl=1254031&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIl_q0nove7QIViPDACh2zXAziEAAYAiAAEgIArvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Ford, GM and Jeep have comparable models along with the other foreign auto makers. They all have a model or two who might be slightly larger in cargo space than the one above, but still less space than a mid size to large four door.  It just seems to Detroit and the other automakers if it has a hatch, its and SUV now.  

Yep, the trucklet concept has just mindlessly replaced any other form of vehicle.

Some of these should be wagons, or hatchbacks, or sportback sedans or coupes.  They'd fare better under CAFE, too.

But 'murica.

[elfenix 34338]

10 minutes ago, Nueces River Rat said:

This is what Nissan classifies as an SUV https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/crossovers-suvs/kicks.html?dcp=psn.58700004658437127&ds_rl=1254031&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIl_q0nove7QIViPDACh2zXAziEAAYAiAAEgIArvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Ford, GM and Jeep have comparable models along with the other foreign auto makers. They all have a model or two who might be slightly larger in cargo space than the one above, but still less space than a mid size to large four door.  It just seems to Detroit and the other automakers if it has a hatch, its and SUV now.  

finally figured out how to sell hatchbacks to americans. 

[elfenix 34338]

5 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

They'd fare better under CAFE, too.

would they though?  pretty sure those trucklets allow 700,000+ F150s, rams, and silverado/sierras each to roll off the line every year without incurring cafe penalties. 

Edited December 21, 2020 by elfenix

[TwiceHorn 31554]

2 minutes ago, elfenix said:

finally figured out how to sell hatchbacks to americans. 

In Buick's last car gasp, they had a Regal TourX wagon and the Regal GS and similar were sportbacks that look like a normal sedan.  The latter had more cargo room than 2 of the 3 SUVs in Buick's lineup, the wagon obviously more.

[TwiceHorn 31554]

2 minutes ago, elfenix said:

would they though?  pretty sure those trucklets allow 700,000 F150s, rams, and silverado/sierras to roll off the line each year without incurring cafe penalties. 

While they've gotten pretty good with SUV weight and whatnot, you'd have to think the coefficient of drag alone would knock a few mpg off CAFE.  Just lowering, raking the windshield, dropping the rear, and smaller wheels and tires.  And every CUV is still probably a couple of hundred pounds more than an equivalent hatch-type vehicle.

Edited December 21, 2020 by TwiceHorn

[elfenix 34338]

1 minute ago, TwiceHorn said:

While they've gotten pretty good with SUV weight and whatnot, you'd have to think the coefficient of drag alone would knock a few mpg off CAFE.

CAFE credits generated on cars can't be passed to trucks.  further, cars are subject to higher CAFE, so i'm not sure switching wouldn't knock a non-lifted wagon out of compliance. 

[TwiceHorn 31554]

18 minutes ago, elfenix said:

CAFE credits generated on cars can't be passed to trucks.  further, cars are subject to higher CAFE, so i'm not sure switching wouldn't knock a non-lifted wagon out of compliance. 

I guess you're right on that.  That, alone, explains SUVs.

[fakebusiness 129]

Get a used Lexus that was manufactured in Japan. Has everything you need as well as being in a different stratosphere in terms of reliability when compared to competitors. Audi's and BMWs are fun but turn into endless moneypits. Haven't kept up with what Nissan/Infiniti is putting out nowadays but I loved my G37. 

 

Tl;dr get a used Lexus

[conVINCEd 21469]

3 hours ago, Nueces River Rat said:

This is kind of true.   But I saw some of that demographic ease up on that attitude later in the 90s as a few of them finally decided to give the Camary and Accord a chance thanks to frustration with American brands. It might have helped that Toyota and Honda made a big deal back then to promote most of the models of those two vehicles were made in the US. 

One grandfather bought a Hyundai late in his life, and he was emphatic about it not being Japanese.  I don’t get the hate so many years later, but I’ve never served on a ship that was sunk by Japanese torpedoes, so I let him have that hate.

[elfenix 34338]

my grandfather hunted subarus during the war, then went hunting in them in the 80s/90s. 

[52-80 19263]

10 hours ago, tbone_ said:

Why? It’s nice to be able to load up some shit from time to time.

If you gotta haul lumber you gotta haul lumber.  Most people dont.

Im not an eco-hippie but it seems wasteful to create unecessarily larger and heavier vehicles.  More steel, more heft, more fuel consumption, more tire consumption, more dangerous to peds. 

Virtue aside, practically speaking, there are safety concerns re: visibility when the road is filled with Yukons and F250 crew cabs. As a driver of a normal sized vehicles, I can't see around the motherfuckers.  Can't see in front of them when trailing, can't see beyond their nose when pulling out of junction, can't see behind them when making an unprotected left and theyre in the opposite direction, etc.  It creates an escalating size war where everybody needs to sit higher and higher and buy bigger and bigger cars.

[Nueces River Rat 5539]

6 hours ago, conVINCEd said:

One grandfather bought a Hyundai late in his life, and he was emphatic about it not being Japanese.  I don’t get the hate so many years later, but I’ve never served on a ship that was sunk by Japanese torpedoes, so I let him have that hate.

I get it.  The car manufacturers were retooled on both sides of the war to make weapons, so yea I can get why a few of those men had some long held disdain,  even after decades of reconciliation. Also I think many who fought in the war or were just alive back witnessed the brutality of both the Germans and Japanese. Because  of the Holocaust, the Germans get the most print in history books and documentaries.  On the other hand, the Japanese were just as harsh with their treatment of captured soldiers (maybe more so here)and civilians in territory they held until the Allies beat them back.   They just didn’t have a mission to exterminate a certain population.   And of course despite what we’ve learned later,  US participating in the war was inevitable. But at the time and even decades later, perception was the Japanese dragged us into the war.  So you have this too.  

[royiv 9375]

7 hours ago, fakebusiness said:

Get a used Lexus that was manufactured in Japan. Has everything you need as well as being in a different stratosphere in terms of reliability when compared to competitors. Audi's and BMWs are fun but turn into endless moneypits. Haven't kept up with what Nissan/Infiniti is putting out nowadays but I loved my G37. 

 

Tl;dr get a used Lexus

This is what giving up on life looks like. Lexus has perfected the art of sucking every last ounce of personality out of a vehicle. I've now owned five BMWs and, knock on wood, none have ever needed anything more than tires and oil. 

[Nueces River Rat 5539]

What's wrong with Lexus? 

Are they not just the Luxury knock off for Toyota for which Genesis is for Hyundai, Acura for Honda,  Infinity for Nissan, Lincoln for Ford, and Audi for VW?  Oh and I guess Cadillac for GM as well..

 

[Guest Lobo]

Are Volkswagens and Audi sedans built on the same platform?  I think the SUVs are, but I thought the sedans are still silo'd for platform design and assembly purposes. 

[TwiceHorn 31554]

2 minutes ago, Nueces River Rat said:

What's wrong with Lexus? 

Are they not just the Luxury knock off for Toyota for which Genesis is for Hyundai, Acura for Honda,  Infinity for Nissan, Lincoln for Ford, and Audi for VW?  Oh and I guess Cadillac for GM as well..

 

Lexus is great at what they do.  But consider first that Toyota is super-staid and rarely "inspires" with their offerings. Then add in that Lexus' primary goal for most of their vehicles is to insulate the cabin from the road and the engine, a goal at which they are extremely successful.  But it's anathema to what a lot of people want out of their cars.

[52-80 19263]

6 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Are Volkswagens and Audi sedans built on the same platform?  I think the SUVs are, but I thought the sedans are still silo'd for platform design and assembly purposes. 

A platform alone is so far from the end result that it isn’t much indicative of the final product. 
 

Skoda builds on same chassis and platform, and even same drivetrain as VW but somehow squeezes an insane passenger and cargo volume from their equivalent vehicles. 
 

Audi and Porsche SUVs also share platform but they tune the dynamics so that they behave completely differently

[Nueces River Rat 5539]

7 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Lexus is great at what they do.  But consider first that Toyota is super-staid and rarely "inspires" with their offerings. Then add in that Lexus' primary goal for most of their vehicles is to insulate the cabin from the road and the engine, a goal at which they are extremely successful.  But it's anathema to what a lot of people want out of their cars.

Full disclosure... I briefly owned a Lexus Four door Sedan back in 2011.   Drove nice, but I was too darn spoiled by years of driving a pick up and still need the leg room a crew cab offered with two boys in the house.   Don't know if I'd go back though if I ever decide to go back to a four door or even a SUV

[Armybrat 40920]

Go classic....

 

[tbone_ 14181]

If you gotta haul lumber you gotta haul lumber.  Most people dont.
Im not an eco-hippie but it seems wasteful to create unecessarily larger and heavier vehicles.  More steel, more heft, more fuel consumption, more tire consumption, more dangerous to peds. 
Virtue aside, practically speaking, there are safety concerns re: visibility when the road is filled with Yukons and F250 crew cabs. As a driver of a normal sized vehicles, I can't see around the motherfuckers.  Can't see in front of them when trailing, can't see beyond their nose when pulling out of junction, can't see behind them when making an unprotected left and theyre in the opposite direction, etc.  It creates an escalating size war where everybody needs to sit higher and higher and buy bigger and bigger cars.

Yea I agree with that. But I don’t see the harm in getting a grand Cherokee instead of a Camry.

[LebongJames 1815]

On 12/21/2020 at 9:50 AM, TwiceHorn said:

Lexus is great at what they do.  But consider first that Toyota is super-staid and rarely "inspires" with their offerings. Then add in that Lexus' primary goal for most of their vehicles is to insulate the cabin from the road and the engine, a goal at which they are extremely successful.  But it's anathema to what a lot of people want out of their cars.

This. I thought I wanted a Lexus for the reliability but when we went to drive them they are just boring for any SUV or sedan they offer. Went with a BMW and am very happy. I’ll worry about repairs in 4 years.

As for leasing, when we were looking it didn’t make sense when the interest rates are where they are right now.

 

[DCA_HORN 725]

Go classic....
 

62?

[Armybrat 40920]

48 minutes ago, DCA_HORN said:

6 hours ago, Armybrat said:

Go classic....
 

62?

Yes

[Nueces River Rat 5539]

6 hours ago, Armybrat said:

Go classic....

 

9 MPG?

[Nueces River Rat 5539]

On 12/21/2020 at 4:20 AM, 52-80 said:

If you gotta haul lumber you gotta haul lumber.  Most people dont.

Im not an eco-hippie but it seems wasteful to create unecessarily larger and heavier vehicles.  More steel, more heft, more fuel consumption, more tire consumption, more dangerous to peds. 

Virtue aside, practically speaking, there are safety concerns re: visibility when the road is filled with Yukons and F250 crew cabs. As a driver of a normal sized vehicles, I can't see around the motherfuckers.  Can't see in front of them when trailing, can't see beyond their nose when pulling out of junction, can't see behind them when making an unprotected left and theyre in the opposite direction, etc.  It creates an escalating size war where everybody needs to sit higher and higher and buy bigger and bigger cars.

Man I was just having this conversation with my wife (no pics you perverted SOB's).  Maybe it has to do with me closing in on 50 and like the above I posted a week or so ago about finding smaller vehicles attractive for my next ride.   I'm the last person to tell others what to drive and how much they want to spend of their vehicle of choice.  But my 49 year old self see little to no value for what some of these dudes around here spend on the F-250's, 350's  and their counterparts made by the other automakers.  Unless you are hauling stuff like a gooseneck or bumper pull over a certain weight or it's work related, why in the hell does one need so much damn truck?   My 30 year old self would have said the exact opposite.  On the street I live on I can count three or four households (out of 15)  where the guy has a 70 or 80k F-250/350 and they don't do one days  of work in the sticks or pull nothing larger than a simple fishing boat.    I do like my F-150 for the very reasons you state about about being able to see around these guys who are dime a dozen down here. 

[Okie State 3848]

I'd look into C5 Vettes. Could probably finance one for 84 months to keep the payments down.

[Chewbacca 7787]

I'd look into C5 Vettes. Could probably finance one for 84 months to keep the payments down.

Make sure to find one with carpet on the dash, so you know it's been taken care of.

[Gatorubet 30321]

One grandfather bought a Hyundai late in his life, and he was emphatic about it not being Japanese.  I don’t get the hate so many years later, but I’ve never served on a ship that was sunk by Japanese torpedoes, so I let him have that hate.

When I was a union laborer on a big construction job in Washington State the 70s, you were risking a keyed paint job to park a “Jap car” in the craft parking lot.

When I left that job I bought a Subaru.
Got me to the ski slopes just fine. I never saw those pipe fitters and iron workers in that crowd, and nobody skiing gave a shit.

[elfenix 34338]

26 minutes ago, Nueces River Rat said:

Man I was just having this conversation with my wife (no pics you perverted SOB's).  Maybe it has to do with me closing in on 50 and like the above I posted a week or so ago about finding smaller vehicles attractive for my next ride.   I'm the last person to tell others what to drive and how much they want to spend of their vehicle of choice.  But my 49 year old self see little to no value for what some of these dudes around here spend on the F-250's, 350's  and their counterparts made by the other automakers.  Unless you are hauling stuff like a gooseneck or bumper pull over a certain weight or it's work related, why in the hell does one need so much damn truck?   My 30 year old self would have said the exact opposite.  On the street I live on I can count three or four households (out of 15)  where the guy has a 70 or 80k F-250/350 and they don't do one days  of work in the sticks or pull nothing larger than a simple fishing boat.    I do like my F-150 for the very reasons you state about about being able to see around these guys who are dime a dozen down here. 

two dodges pass on a county road.  how many tow mirrors break off?

[midtown 3348]

1 hour ago, Okie State said:

I'd look into C5 Vettes. Could probably finance one for 84 months to keep the payments down.

I do turn 50 in March but I have all my hair so I don't qualify to buy a Corvette.  I have considered a Porsche but I just can't justify a car that expensive.  Esp with younger kids.  And even if I stretched up to the $60k for a Cayman aren't those kind of frowned upon?

I really want to avoid a car that half the planet drives which leaves out BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, and Audi.

Edited December 23, 2020 by midtown

[Okie State 3848]

Ask G650. He's a big Porsche guy.

[Armybrat 40920]

3 hours ago, Nueces River Rat said:

9 MPG?

My 1958 Olds 88 got 8mpg (leaded premium).

[tbone_ 14181]

More like 8 GPM I bet.

[LebongJames 1815]

11 hours ago, midtown said:

I do turn 50 in March but I have all my hair so I don't qualify to buy a Corvette.  I have considered a Porsche but I just can't justify a car that expensive.  Esp with younger kids.  And even if I stretched up to the $60k for a Cayman aren't those kind of frowned upon?

I really want to avoid a car that half the planet drives which leaves out BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, and Audi.

Caymans are now the size of old 911s. But for $60k it would be the absolute lowest spec’d Cayman out there as they start at $60k. 
 

I feel you on the car that everyone else drives but unfortunately that is the way it is these days. You can get uniqueness through the spec and trim though.

[midtown 3348]

6 hours ago, LebongJames said:

Caymans are now the size of old 911s. But for $60k it would be the absolute lowest spec’d Cayman out there as they start at $60k. 
 

I feel you on the car that everyone else drives but unfortunately that is the way it is these days. You can get uniqueness through the spec and trim though.

Yeah for shits and giggles I look at Cayman inventories near me.  The only one is $100k.  Maybe Ill get a 911 after my lease is done in 3 years.

My 14 yr old son was quizzing me about cars and was asking why a Cadillac or Genesis.  I said because I don't want to drive the same car as every person.  I told him to count Mercedes at the stop light.  He got to 5 and said "I see what you mean"

[Zepol87 9195]

18 hours ago, midtown said:

I do turn 50 in March but I have all my hair so I don't qualify to buy a Corvette.  I have considered a Porsche but I just can't justify a car that expensive.  Esp with younger kids.  And even if I stretched up to the $60k for a Cayman aren't those kind of frowned upon?

I really want to avoid a car that half the planet drives which leaves out BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, and Audi.

God damn I didn't know you were almost 50. Not really what you are looking for (I think) but I am thinking of trading in our Lexus and have been looking at the Hyundai Palisade or the Kia Telluride