2018 San Antonio Spurs Offseason Thread -- Into the Great Unknown

[Patrick Bateman 3,911]

While some of "Kawhi's team's" background was interesting, the biggest takeaway for me is after two different treatment regiments, there still is no confirmation he's healthy or will be healthy.  When I see words like "chronic", "degenerative", "ossification", and "atrophy", I immediately get very concerned for any player's L-T prognosis.  If this article is believed, he's still not healthy..... after more than a year with this injury.  Supermax?  I wouldn't even entertain the idea until he can get back onto the court and prove he's healthy.  

[Amos Moses 795]

Good thoughts, Mitch.  I had the same read on the agent/uncle situation - all their business development is tied to him, and they are squeezing tight.  Dude just wants to hoop and is caught with a bunch of tapeworms lapping at this feet.

Spurs only have leverage with respect to the supermax.  After that is hashed out either way and/or until his group decides he should walk, the leverage is gone.  

[Gut Wagon 8,065]

I’m less worried about Kawhi’s psyche than about his quad. 

[Kermit 3,156]

That shit about Leonard coming down to be there for Pop if needed was enlightening. I’m pretty sure the relationship has a chance. 

[Michael Knight 12,977]

Sad

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/kawhi-leonard-trade-rumors-spurs-worried-leonards-camp-has-ulterior-motive-to-force-move-to-larger-market/

[XYZ 2,154]

Kawhi has one season left under contract, right?

[C-Man 27,216]

1 hour ago, Kermit said:

That shit about Leonard coming down to be there for Pop if needed was enlightening. I’m pretty sure the relationship has a chance. 

I trust that PATFO will wind up having the Spurs finish in the absolute best position when this is over.

[Gut Wagon 8,065]

1 hour ago, Michael Knight said:

Sad

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/kawhi-leonard-trade-rumors-spurs-worried-leonards-camp-has-ulterior-motive-to-force-move-to-larger-market/

A short article about a longer article, both of which can be boiled down to: Nobody knows zilch about nada. 

[dingleberryswitzer 2,724]

Sounds like Kawhi needs to hire an actual agent.  Unless this guy is giving him the jerry maguire treatment. 

[dingleberryswitzer 2,724]

5 hours ago, Patrick Bateman said:

While some of "Kawhi's team's" background was interesting, the biggest takeaway for me is after two different treatment regiments, there still is no confirmation he's healthy or will be healthy.  When I see words like "chronic", "degenerative", "ossification", and "atrophy", I immediately get very concerned for any player's L-T prognosis.  If this article is believed, he's still not healthy..... after more than a year with this injury.  Supermax?  I wouldn't even entertain the idea until he can get back onto the court and prove he's healthy.  

This is key.  If Kawhi wants supermax he either signs this summer or has to make all nba next season which means proving his health and skill haven't diminished.    Sounds like there is specualtion ownership may not want to offer that large a contract either.  I hadn't even considered the Holt divorce .  Shoot thr team might even be up for sale in the next two or three years. 

[ZanTheFan 49]

Kawhi + Pau for

Fultz, Saric, Covington + 2018 first

Where do we sign?????

https://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/amp/For-Kawhi-Leonard-s-camp-trade-discussions-12878269.php

Over the last few weeks, league sources told the Express-News the Sixers could make a push for Leonard this offseason and include their highly-coveted 2018 first-round pick.

Add forward Dario Saric, forward Robert Covington, and last year's top overall pick Markelle Fultz, who is close with Dejounte Murray, to the mix, and the Sixers have an attractive package to offer the Spurs that also removes Leonard from the Western Conference.

Sixers coach Brett Brown could also have an impact. Sources tell the Express-News Leonard would have no problem being coached by Brown, the former Spurs assistant coach.

Also, the Sixers could take Pau Gasol off the Spurs' books, and have enough money under the salary cap to absorb the deal.

[PilotsError 2,287]

Zach Lowe had Ramona Shelbourne on his podcast yesterday to talk about Kawhi.  

 

http://www.espn.com/espnradio/podcast/archive/_/id/10528553

[Gut Wagon 8,065]

Health, more than anything else, is the reason I'd take that Philly trade in the blink of an eye. But a second factor is that I don't think we're going anywhere as a team until we restock with more athletes in general. (Not Shaka Smart athletes, but athletes with basketball skills.) We need several upgrades to the lineup, and we need them ASAP.  Do that and we might be elite again by the time the GS era starts to fade, which I expect (well, hope for) in another 2-3 seasons. 

[angelfacedmongoloid 80]

1 hour ago, PilotsError said:

Zach Lowe had Ramona Shelbourne on his podcast yesterday to talk about Kawhi.  

 

http://www.espn.com/espnradio/podcast/archive/_/id/10528553

Good podcast, its worth a listen if you have time. There's just a little bit added on to the article and also some things that have been similarly speculated here.

 

1 hour ago, Gut Wagon said:

Health, more than anything else, is the reason I'd take that Philly trade in the blink of an eye. But a second factor is that I don't think we're going anywhere as a team until we restock with more athletes in general. (Not Shaka Smart athletes, but athletes with basketball skills.) We need several upgrades to the lineup, and we need them ASAP.  Do that and we might be elite again by the time the GS era starts to fade, which I expect (well, hope for) in another 2-3 seasons. 

After taking in all of the information from Shelbourne and seeing some of the thoughts of a few here that I agree with (mitch and patrick bateman in particular) I'm kind of thinking the same thing. I've looked at some of the proposals that have come out in the past few months and this one is one of the few that I've been ok with. I also wouldn't mind a deal involving Jason Tatum but at this point, I don't think Boston would make that deal because A) He's looked like a BMF in the playoffs, and B) With the injury situations with Kyrie and Hayward, I don't think they would take on an injury risk like Kawhi given what everyone knows now. I don't think I've seen any proposals but the only other player I'd want to see involved is Porzingis and I don't think Knicks would give him up for anything at this point

[Hate 20,108]

I would much prefer that Kawhi fire his "agents" and get someone real in there.  I would prefer that he stay in SA and lead the team to some title runs over the next few years, but at this point I think the damage is done.  If we could get the package mentioned about from Philly, I would do it.  I love Kawhi, but how could they possibly trust him going forward?  

[angelfacedmongoloid 80]

Well, yeah but it seems he trusts the uncle completely. He has over 20 years of retail banking experience after all....

[Gut Wagon 8,065]

If I knew KL wasn’t damaged goods for the long haul, I’d love to keep him in SA. But I’m not sure anyone yet knows his actual prognosis. Scary for all concerned. 

[Patrick Bateman 3,911]

I much prefer trying to work a deal with Boston than Philly..... Fultz may be damaged goods as well as he has a bum shoulder.  He can't really shoot, back court of Fultz and Murray may break the backboard.  Also, Tatum >> Saric.  He's already better.  IMO, he's at minimum, a Paul George starter kit.  Covington's just a dude.  And then we get into draft picks..... Obviously it would depend if Boston would offer something like Tatum, Rozier, and draft picks.  Now, if Philly is willing to take the Pau or Patty contract and Boston won't then it gets much more even.... I'd have to look as I don't know if Philly has any trade exceptions.  I believe Boston does.

[Gut Wagon 8,065]

Tatum's great. No doubt about that part. I'd welcome him to SA. But as we're currently more than a player away from being elite (in my view) and aren't likely to get any great draft picks of our own in the reasonably near future, it does indeed depend on what else Boston might include in a trade. Of course, there's no guarantee they'd include Tatum.

My pipe dream is a Philly deal involving Simmons. But I guess every other fan/GM/coach would say as much.

[Patrick Bateman 3,911]

4 minutes ago, Gut Wagon said:

Tatum's great. No doubt about that part. I'd welcome him to SA. But as we're currently more than a player away from being elite (in my view) and aren't likely to get any great draft picks of our own in the reasonably near future, it does indeed depend on what else Boston might include in a trade. Of course, there's no guarantee they'd include Tatum.

My pipe dream is a Philly deal involving Simmons. But I guess every other fan/GM/coach would say as much.

I think there'd be no way Philly is trading Simmons.  Zero unless he gets hurt in the playoffs.  Contract costs alone almost make it a non-starter and then you consider everything else.  Boston actually needs to decide on their window.  They're probably going to need to trade Brown or Tatum in the next 3 years or they'll probably get into some considerable luxury tax.  Now, they did well in having Horford's deal come off when Brown's deal is up.  Same with Hayward and Tatum, but I'm going to guess they see the KI window as the next 2-3 seasons.... a healthy Kawhi at 27 is much more ready to help within that window....

 

[Hate 20,108]

I really know nothing about any of the players mentioned in possible trade scenarios above, but I'll side with the consensus that Boston has a better offer to make?  I'm not sure they would do it as they seem to have their own injury bug issues to deal with.  Would they really want to ship out 2 young players with a bunch of potential for a certified great player with an injury history on top of a "his people" issue?  If you can't work with the Spurs front office, I could see that being a bit of a red flag for any other teams. And would Boston want him if they didn't have him signed to a long term deal?  I can't imagine that if he wants out of SA that Boston is anywhere near the top of his wish list.  I don't have any idea what to expect.  This has been the most unSpurs like season since they draftet Alfredrick Hughes in 1985.  This sucks.  

[angelfacedmongoloid 80]

Danny Ainge seems like an arrogant cocksucker so hopefully he would think he could make it work with the agent and uncle if that's what it comes to. He had no problem taking on Kyrie Irving who was leaving the top finals contender in the East so maybe the people around Kawhi would be way down the list of concerns. I'm well aware of the fact that the scenarios are different, its a complicated case with a lot of ins and outs and what have yous

[Gut Wagon 8,065]

1 hour ago, Hate said:

I really know nothing about any of the players mentioned in possible trade scenarios above, but I'll side with the consensus that Boston has a better offer to make?  I'm not sure they would do it as they seem to have their own injury bug issues to deal with.  Would they really want to ship out 2 young players with a bunch of potential for a certified great player with an injury history on top of a "his people" issue?  If you can't work with the Spurs front office, I could see that being a bit of a red flag for any other teams. And would Boston want him if they didn't have him signed to a long term deal?  I can't imagine that if he wants out of SA that Boston is anywhere near the top of his wish list.  I don't have any idea what to expect.  This has been the most unSpurs like season since they draftet Alfredrick Hughes in 1985.  This sucks.  

If the recent rumor that Kawhi wants to be a Laker has any truth to it, that suggests a very different potential trade scenario than what might occur with the Sixers or Celtics. LAL has some talent, of course, but I'm thinking they'd have to turn loose of a ton of it to get someone from SA. Not like we'd be shipping him off to the nether regions of the Eastern Conference. I need Kuzma, Ingram and maybe Zubac to make that work for me. 

[Mitch Cumsteen 18,547]

4 hours ago, Gut Wagon said:

Tatum's great. No doubt about that part. I'd welcome him to SA. But as we're currently more than a player away from being elite (in my view) and aren't likely to get any great draft picks of our own in the reasonably near future, it does indeed depend on what else Boston might include in a trade. Of course, there's no guarantee they'd include Tatum.

My pipe dream is a Philly deal involving Simmons. But I guess every other fan/GM/coach would say as much.

We actually are a player away from being elite. That player is Kawhi Leonard.

With regard to trade scenarios... if you think Boston is leery of injuries because of Kyrie and Hayward, Philly has it worse with Embiid and Fultz. Shit, even Simmons missed his entire rookie season. 

[Gut Wagon 8,065]

2 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

We actually are a player away from being elite. That player is Kawhi Leonard.

With regard to trade scenarios... if you think Boston is leery of injuries because of Kyrie and Hayward, Philly has it worse with Embiid and Fultz. Shit, even Simmons missed his entire rookie season. 

I fear we're farther away that just Kawhi. But my definition of "elite" is stricter than most: I mean one of the 2-3 teams most capable of winning a title. Despite how SA was faring against GS before Kawhi's ankle sprain, I felt even then we were a player or two away from really being the big dogs. If we make the playoffs next spring, Manu, Tony, Pau, Danny and Patty will be nearly two years longer in the tooth than they were back then. And none of those guys is as good a player now, more than offsetting any improvement we've seen in Murray and LMA. Meanwhile, other good teams have maintained or even added talent. So I'm operating under the assumption we'd now be a little behind even were Kawhi back at full power. We need to upgrade ASAP at several positions.

 

[JimmyJames 12,271]

Story has all the earmarks of an influential “uncle” looking to leverage a payday for himself regardless of whether or not it benefits the “client.” I guess time will tell as to what happens but this story has been written, told, and witnessed many many times before, with unpredictable results. 

[ZanTheFan 49]

2 hours ago, JimmyJames said:

Story has all the earmarks of an influential “uncle” looking to leverage a payday for himself regardless of whether or not it benefits the “client.” I guess time will tell as to what happens but this story has been written, told, and witnessed many many times before, with unpredictable results. 

it does... but then why does the uncle seem to be angling for a move that costs his client $70 million over the course of his next contract? this after already turning down a $20 million shoe contract extension. if it's purely financial, then it really makes no sense!

 

[ZanTheFan 49]

one theory I used to buy was that PATFO approached Kawhi and his team (last summer? last season? who knows) about the potential of not extending the Supermax contract. Spurs way, loyalty, we'll take care of you down the road, etc etc. and Uncle Dennis got butthurt.

I'm starting to doubt this theory more and more though. if that were true, it seems like it would've leaked by now.

Edited May 3, 2018 by ZanTheFan

[angelfacedmongoloid 80]

That's the thing I haven't been able to figure out. Maybe the uncle thinks they can get huge endorsement deals? With as much as he's be giving up i wouldn't think it would make up for it.

[Gut Wagon 8,065]

I have a feeling it might be at least as much the uncle’s dream to get Kawhi and his shoe deal to the Lakers as it is the player’s. 

[BurdineBandit 815]

Saric and a 1st-rounder (Lottery only) would work for me. Throw in whoever and get Pau off the books. Saric is a guy who would thrive in our system with his IQ and well-rounded game. Shit get Belinelli back here too.

[Patrick Bateman 3,911]

2 minutes ago, BurdineBandit said:

Saric and a 1st-rounder (Lottery only) would work for me. Throw in whoever and get Pau off the books. Saric is a guy who would thrive in our system with his IQ and well-rounded game. Shit get Belinelli back here too.

Hmm.... Saric and only a pick for a top 5-6 player???  I would think Philly would do that right now and they're in the middle of a playoff series..... Gonna need more than just a rich man's Ilyasova.  I would hope we aim a bit higher unless it's the first pick in the draft which is unlikely.

 

[BurdineBandit 815]

Because I trust our front office to turn an actual Top 10 pick into a star. We haven't had one of those in decades. But I also wonder about the market, if I have the market wrong then of course you go get multiple first-rounders, multiple all-stars and ownership stakes in another franchise, but it was only a month ago that "rumors" were having it that the market for Kawhi wasn't as strong as you would think (for a Top 3 guy).

If we can get Tatum or Brown from the Celtics, of course I want that, but not if they don't come with a lottery pick. I'd rather take Saric and draft our own lottery guy. The overall value to me would be higher.

[NoRagrets 1,125]

Kawhi comes back. Is never the same and always injured. We wonder the wilderness for 20 yrs waiting for the next triplet magic.

[Gut Wagon 8,065]

Outside the Spurs series, I’ve watched under 10 minutes total of the playoffs. Can’t seem to make myself care who wins. Of course, I dislike some more than others. 

[texasstrong12 4,668]

The good news with the Sixers and Celtics is the fact both teams are probably contenders with Kawhi. Championship windows only exist for so long. Teams hate to give up young talent but you have to cash in while you have the chance. 

[BurdineBandit 815]

12 hours ago, Gut Wagon said:

Outside the Spurs series, I’ve watched under 10 minutes total of the playoffs. Can’t seem to make myself care who wins. Of course, I dislike some more than others. 

I thought I was gonna be the same way, but my basketball fandom came back. LeBron is playing too damn well to pass up, he's really staking his claim as the clear-cut #2 in history. Watching the Rockets inch closer and closer to collapse is also riveting enough for me to pay attention. Plus Joe Ingles is a cheeky bastard and I can't get enough of him.

[Gut Wagon 8,065]

1 hour ago, BurdineBandit said:

Watching the Rockets inch closer and closer to collapse is also riveting enough for me to pay attention. 

That's a sentiment I can get behind. I can't root for a front-running defensive matador like Harden to "lead" a team to a title. 

[Hate 20,108]

My wife is a Rockets fan which makes this very hard for me. Honestly, I would rather the Rockets beat GS, but lose to Cleveland in the Finals. I can’t say that at home.

[Amos Moses 795]

Fuck the Rockets.  I look forward to the inevitable sweet, sweet Rocket tears in the streets of Houston.

[Radical Larry 28,585]

 

 

[Michael Knight 12,977]

Good for Becky

[ultimaton 2,974]

On 5/2/2018 at 9:08 PM, ZanTheFan said:

it does... but then why does the uncle seem to be angling for a move that costs his client $70 million over the course of his next contract? this after already turning down a $20 million shoe contract extension. if it's purely financial, then it really makes no sense!

 

His uncle's thinking would be that Kawhi would more than make up that $70MM with a larger, KD/LeBron type endorsement deal will fall into his lap once he's in a Lakers uniform and out of "podunk San Antonio." How they plan to do that with a guy with the personality of an automaton that's fallen off the face of the earth for the past year, I don't know, but I'm sure his uncle's got a scheme or two cookin' up.

[ZanTheFan 49]

His uncle's thinking would be that Kawhi would more than make up that $70MM with a larger, KD/LeBron type endorsement deal will fall into his lap once he's in a Lakers uniform and out of "podunk San Antonio." How they plan to do that with a guy with the personality of an automaton that's fallen off the face of the earth for the past year, I don't know, but I'm sure his uncle's got a scheme or two cookin' up.

He would have to make up 90MM in endorsements though, not "just" 70. He's already walked away from the 20 MM shoe extension. Add that to potentially walking away from another 70 on the supermax.

So over 5 years, he'd have to get an additional 18 MM a year off the court. For context, Blake Griffin was pulling in 8MM in endorsements as a Clipper. And he has a legit celeb personality.

Here's the list of top off court earners annually according to Forbes:

LeBron 52
Steph 42
KD 33
Harden 20
Russ 19
Kyrie, Lillard, Wade, 14
Giannis, Klay 13

Cleveland, Portland, Milwaukee, OKC on that list, proving market is not really even relevant. So KL's team is wagering that LA is worth 18+ a year off the court? More than twice what Blake was making. Even if he manages to match what Blake was getting, he's still giving up 50 MM over 5 years! Idiotic.

Maybe they're the smartest guys in the room, because I don't see it.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/kurtbadenhausen/2018/02/17/the-2018-nba-all-stars-players-who-earn-the-most-from-endorsements/amp/

[ZanTheFan 49]

What we don't know is whether or not Adidas promised to make him whole if he manages to get himself to LA. They're already paying Harden, Rose (lol), and Lillard. Possible, I guess.

[EvilCaseMcCoy 691]

On 5/5/2018 at 8:07 AM, ZanTheFan said:

He would have to make up 90MM in endorsements though, not "just" 70. He's already walked away from the 20 MM shoe extension. Add that to potentially walking away from another 70 on the supermax.

Are you saying his uncle didn't account for the opportunity costs? How absurd.  That's econ 101.

[F250 28,767]

Is this Kawhi's uncle?

[BurdineBandit 815]

Not to mention, with all this talk of hesitance to give him the Super Max with his history of injuries, is Jordan willing to spend that kind of money on a guy who we aren't sure will play for the majority of his next contract? Wouldn't they take that into account too?

[HookEm 2,467]

Quote

The good news with the Sixers and Celtics is the fact both teams are probably contenders with Kawhi. 

Both of them are actually already contenders WITHOUT Kawhi.  Neither team is going to give up one of their two young stars (Tatum / Brown or Embiid / Simmons).  Proven, productive young talent is so critical because they are locked into cheap contracts for 3-4 years.  These guys are not only All-Star caliber, they free up the checkbook to get MORE top players to fill out the roster.  These teams aren't run buy idiots. They will never give up that flexibility.

The best you could hope for from Boston would be Rozier (or) Smart + picks.  But even then Kawhi would create redundancies.  Boston's big move will be an upcoming offer for Anthony Davis.

The Sixers are a different story.  Fultz could easily be traded. He is unproven so it will be a gamble either way.  Saric is good and would be an awesome Spur and his trade value is much lower than Tatum, Brown, Embiid, or Simmons.  Covington would also be easy to trade.  Kawhi would also be a perfect compliment for their system and fill a need position.

The Lakers could be a player.  I would need Ingram and Kuzma plus picks at a minimum.  

[aggie08 21,497]

Why do people (Boston media included) keep thinking that AD is get-able? He's not. He's under contract for THREE more seasons. Barring him requesting a trade (which seems outside of his character), he's not going anywhere. You simply do not trade Top 5 players.*

If Boston still thinks that they need a piece to compete, I can promise you that they aren't waiting until 2021. Danny Ainge will definitely give Buford a call to chat.

*Unless they have a meddlesome uncle, and an iffy quadricep, I guess.