2018 San Antonio Spurs Offseason Thread -- Into the Great Unknown

[Patrick Bateman 3918]

1 minute ago, Ricky Butler said:

Then Lebron will probably be playing with Damian Lillard next year and not Kawhi.

With regards to leverage. Kawhi just sat at a year of his prime on a contender because he was upset with them. Seems like a guy that sticks to his guns. If you're a team trading for him, and his agent told you his plans were to sign in LA in '19, wouldn't that scare you?

Sure.... It would give me pause.  But what if there was no salary under the cap to sign with LA outright except the MLE, would that change your perspective about those threats?  Ask yourself this.  Does Kawhi want away from the Spurs or want to LA more this coming season?  Which is more important?  

 

[Hate 20130]

1 hour ago, Jhawk said:

This is still just weird.  Is there an indication that he doesn't want to play with LMA?  He didn't seem to mind being the prodigy next to duncan, manu, and TP.  Now that it is his time to get the spotlight maybe he is pissed that LMA got to have his summer of drama and the spurs gave LMA everything he asked for?  I don't know, maybe he was told the team would continue to be run as it always has been and then bam... out of nowhere they give a max contract to LMA which hurts the financial culture of the team. 

I tend to think he doesn't like playing with LMA.  I just can't get through the idea that he was the darling of the franchise for 6 years and now all of the sudden he hates Pop and doesn't want to play under him and his leadership.  Or maybe, like most rookies, he was just trying to get to his second contract so he could leave with a fat stack.

This has been my theory the whole time and I stated it several weeks ago.  I think that Kawhi feels as if too much was given to LMA in promises to make him feel comfortable.  I think the injury thing is secondary or is being used as a way to shield the public from knowing that Kawhi doesn't like LMA.  

[Ricky Butler 2731]

2 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Sure.... It would give me pause.  But what if there was no salary under the cap to sign with LA outright except the MLE, would that change your perspective about those threats?  Ask yourself this.  Does Kawhi want away from the Spurs or want to LA more this coming season?  Which is more important?  

 

I just don't fear the cap. A crummy team will eat bad money like Deng's for young players and picks.

I have no idea what Kawhi is thinking, but hopefully the Spurs do. If he just wants to be on a different contending team, then the Spurs will get a great package. This situation seems unprecedented and weird. The degree to which it is fucked seems to have caught them (and everyone else) off guard. 

[C-Man 27246]

The Spurs are not trading him to a Western Conference team. If he wants to go West, he’ll have to wait a year. (Now if Sac-town or Phoenix wants to take a chance, I’ll help this turd pack his bags.)

[Patrick Bateman 3918]

Just now, Ricky Butler said:

I just don't fear the cap. A crummy team will eat bad money like Deng's for young players and picks.

I have no idea what Kawhi is thinking, but hopefully the Spurs do. If he just wants to be on a different contending team, then the Spurs will get a great package. This situation seems unprecedented and weird. The degree to which it is fucked seems to have caught them (and everyone else) off guard. 

I agree with you, they'll be able to move Deng's contract, but even if they do, they still would have enough cap holds where they'd have to move salary out..... again, much easier to do a S&T, which is probably the way the Lakers will have to get George as well.

I do think the Spurs misjudged the situation.  That may be their fault although I do think Kawhi is acting illogical and is proving to be too reliant on a questionable character.  Even if that's the case, it's the Spurs job to understand the lay of the land so they are accountable.  We'll see what they can do to optimize their situation.  They're not going to get FMV, teams generally don't for superstars so we'll be a worse team than 2016 but have to do the best they can in a difficult position.... I don't believe caving and giving whatever the Kawhi camp wants is the best way to do business though.  We'll see.... what a soap opera.

 

[Ricky Butler 2731]

7 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

I agree with you, they'll be able to move Deng's contract, but even if they do, they still would have enough cap holds where they'd have to move salary out..... again, much easier to do a S&T, which is probably the way the Lakers will have to get George as well.

I do think the Spurs misjudged the situation.  That may be their fault although I do think Kawhi is acting illogical and is proving to be too reliant on a questionable character.  Even if that's the case, it's the Spurs job to understand the lay of the land so they are accountable.  We'll see what they can do to optimize their situation.  They're not going to get FMV, teams generally don't for superstars so we'll be a worse team than 2016 but have to do the best they can in a difficult position.... I don't believe caving and giving whatever the Kawhi camp wants is the best way to do business though.  We'll see.... what a soap opera.

 

Yeah, I definitely not thinking they should cave and trade him to the Lakers. Fuck the Lakers. I'm just fascinated by this whole NBA offseason, and Kawhi is making it even more interesting. I live in SoCal, so I am more interested than usual in what's going on.

[Patrick Bateman 3918]

This would seemingly eliminate teams like Sacramento or Phoenix and may have a big impact on the Clippers' designs....

 

[Mitch Cumsteen 18550]

I don' think that is a big surprise. One thing you know the Spurs aren't going to do is panic. Unless a too good to be true deal comes across their desk, they are going to take their time with this. 

[Eastwood 4394]

I hope the Spurs turn this into the "Hershel Walker trade" of the NBA. Who wants to be our Minnesota Vikings?

[Lurker 0]

From a page run by his sister. Who knows what that even means.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gut Wagon 8086]

I think I know less after her "update" than I did before. And before I knew nothing.

[miguelito 11267]

At this point, nobody knows shit.

[Patrick Bateman 3918]

 

[ultimaton 2982]

3 hours ago, Jhawk said:

This is still just weird.  Is there an indication that he doesn't want to play with LMA?  He didn't seem to mind being the prodigy next to duncan, manu, and TP.  Now that it is his time to get the spotlight maybe he is pissed that LMA got to have his summer of drama and the spurs gave LMA everything he asked for?  I don't know, maybe he was told the team would continue to be run as it always has been and then bam... out of nowhere they give a max contract to LMA which hurts the financial culture of the team. 

I tend to think he doesn't like playing with LMA.  I just can't get through the idea that he was the darling of the franchise for 6 years and now all of the sudden he hates Pop and doesn't want to play under him and his leadership.  Or maybe, like most rookies, he was just trying to get to his second contract so he could leave with a fat stack.

 

1 hour ago, Hate said:

This has been my theory the whole time and I stated it several weeks ago.  I think that Kawhi feels as if too much was given to LMA in promises to make him feel comfortable.  I think the injury thing is secondary or is being used as a way to shield the public from knowing that Kawhi doesn't like LMA.  

I don't buy it. Kawhi's group don't seem to have a problem throwing guys like Pop and Tony under the bus, but doesn't want anyone to know they have issues with LMA?

Edited June 20, 2018 by ultimaton

[Jhawk 1075]

There are definitely holes in the theory but Manu and TP always just took direction and never stood up and rattled the cage.  Pop has always been the leader.  If I was told that I would be the only max guy on the team (I believe Kawhi got the max) and that a TP/Manu/Duncan type team would be built around me then I would be pissed if they squandered the money in a panic and took LMA at the max.  If/when I got over that, I would be especially pissed about when LMA threw a fit and Pop, who has always been the pillar of the team, collapsed to basically give LMA everything he wanted.  For 6 years you are the heir apparent and then because a guy who came into "our" culture and demanded the most money possible and is now demanding the ball as much as possible is being acquiesced to.  Maybe Kawhi just sees the writing on the wall that the players on the roster are playing for themselves and not the team and he doesn't want to be the last one standing while the culture erodes.

I guess maybe it isn't that Kawhi has a problem with LMA, maybe he has a problem with how the organization has been run since LMA got to town.  Kawhi didn't say anything when LMA was getting 14 shots a game.  Now that the offense is being run through the post more maybe that is where the problems arose.  At that point you might have to choose either Kawhi or LMA.  Given that Pop gave LMA his way there is no reason for Kawhi to believe Pop is going to give Kawhi what he was promised in the reigns to the horse.

[Braff Zacklin 13642]

At this point, I am sort of rooting for the tendinopathy.

[Gut Wagon 8086]

Kawhi's usage rate was really high when he was playing. Had he come back from his injury in a timely manner, he'd have had the ball most of the time again. LMA's rate would have gone down. Offering Kawhi the supermax would suggest the plan wasn't to use him as Option #2 on offense. But hey...I'm just some outside observer, not anyone with true knowledge of the team's inner workings. 

[Jhawk 1075]

The problem with the NBA is that guys get a max/super max because the team has to pay that. It doesn't mean that a particular player is the 1st option.  Steven Adams got a huge deal and he was the 3rd or 4th option.  Kawhi will get the max wherever he goes (super with spurs), if Lebron takes $20mm and Kawhi gets $24mm to both be in LA, that doesn't mean it is Kawhi's team.  My theory is that the way LMA was catered to makes Kawhi think that the team isn't his like he was promised.  He'd probably rather go somewhere where he can win (assuming LBJ and PG13 go to LA) and take less than the super than be stuck for 4 years on a team that is going to be a 3-4 seed in the west each year and never have a chance to beat the top 2 teams in the west.  The most powerful people in the NBA seem to be the all-star caliber player that is willing to forego the max contract.  If Kawhi is positioning himself as that guy then there is no chance the spurs come out with Kawhi in the end.

[ultimaton 2982]

4 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

There are definitely holes in the theory but Manu and TP always just took direction and never stood up and rattled the cage.  Pop has always been the leader.  If I was told that I would be the only max guy on the team (I believe Kawhi got the max) and that a TP/Manu/Duncan type team would be built around me then I would be pissed if they squandered the money in a panic and took LMA at the max.  If/when I got over that, I would be especially pissed about when LMA threw a fit and Pop, who has always been the pillar of the team, collapsed to basically give LMA everything he wanted.  For 6 years you are the heir apparent and then because a guy who came into "our" culture and demanded the most money possible and is now demanding the ball as much as possible is being acquiesced to.  Maybe Kawhi just sees the writing on the wall that the players on the roster are playing for themselves and not the team and he doesn't want to be the last one standing while the culture erodes.

I guess maybe it isn't that Kawhi has a problem with LMA, maybe he has a problem with how the organization has been run since LMA got to town.  Kawhi didn't say anything when LMA was getting 14 shots a game.  Now that the offense is being run through the post more maybe that is where the problems arose.  At that point you might have to choose either Kawhi or LMA.  Given that Pop gave LMA his way there is no reason for Kawhi to believe Pop is going to give Kawhi what he was promised in the reigns to the horse.

Naw, if he really had a problem with LMA getting the max or taking away his shots, we'd have heard it already through Uncle Dennis' ventriloquist dummy Jabari Young. I still content this is ultimately all about Uncle Dennis and Mitchell Frankel trying forcing the Spurs into the supermax.

[aggie08 21513]

The dull thud of a jhawk theory. How I've missed those.

[C-Man 27246]

30 minutes ago, Jhawk said:

There are definitely holes in the theory but Manu and TP always just took direction and never stood up and rattled the cage.  Pop has always been the leader.  If I was told that I would be the only max guy on the team (I believe Kawhi got the max) and that a TP/Manu/Duncan type team would be built around me then I would be pissed if they squandered the money in a panic and took LMA at the max.  If/when I got over that, I would be especially pissed about when LMA threw a fit and Pop, who has always been the pillar of the team, collapsed to basically give LMA everything he wanted.  For 6 years you are the heir apparent and then because a guy who came into "our" culture and demanded the most money possible and is now demanding the ball as much as possible is being acquiesced to.  Maybe Kawhi just sees the writing on the wall that the players on the roster are playing for themselves and not the team and he doesn't want to be the last one standing while the culture erodes.

I guess maybe it isn't that Kawhi has a problem with LMA, maybe he has a problem with how the organization has been run since LMA got to town.  Kawhi didn't say anything when LMA was getting 14 shots a game.  Now that the offense is being run through the post more maybe that is where the problems arose.  At that point you might have to choose either Kawhi or LMA.  Given that Pop gave LMA his way there is no reason for Kawhi to believe Pop is going to give Kawhi what he was promised in the reigns to the horse.

Man, I couldn't disagree more on this. Two summers ago, LMA was getting the max from somebody. He was hands-down the FA prize the year he was available. No way we pursue him if Kawhi says no. He got the max to come be Kawhi's running buddy and even with the first-year struggles, we were leading the Warriors by 25 in their gym in Game 1 when Kawhi was hurt by Zaza. LMA didn't think he fit in and Pop swooped in last summer and made it all better -- and it wasn't because he got more money. I think they just had a good old fashioned heart-to-heart. It's what strong families do. That's why up until a day or so ago, I thought it would happen again with Kawhi. But I think LMA's support group is more grounded --- and less self-serving -- than Kawhi's.

[PilotsError 2314]

Spurs will get the best assets, I doubt they give a shit if he's in the west.

[dingleberryswitzer 2724]

So kawhi just saw a team with 4 max level players  win the championship,  but is pissed because the spurs signed and extended 1 other?   If anything he should be pissed at the gasol contract.

[C-Man 27246]

So kawhi just saw a team with 4 max level players  win the championship,  but is pissed because the spurs signed and extended 1 other?   If anything he should be pissed at the gasol contract.

Yeah. Does not compute does it?

[immortal13 4059]

3 hours ago, Jhawk said:

There are definitely holes in the theory but Manu and TP always just took direction and never stood up and rattled the cage.  Pop has always been the leader.  If I was told that I would be the only max guy on the team (I believe Kawhi got the max) and that a TP/Manu/Duncan type team would be built around me then I would be pissed if they squandered the money in a panic and took LMA at the max.  If/when I got over that, I would be especially pissed about when LMA threw a fit and Pop, who has always been the pillar of the team, collapsed to basically give LMA everything he wanted.  For 6 years you are the heir apparent and then because a guy who came into "our" culture and demanded the most money possible and is now demanding the ball as much as possible is being acquiesced to.  Maybe Kawhi just sees the writing on the wall that the players on the roster are playing for themselves and not the team and he doesn't want to be the last one standing while the culture erodes.

I guess maybe it isn't that Kawhi has a problem with LMA, maybe he has a problem with how the organization has been run since LMA got to town.  Kawhi didn't say anything when LMA was getting 14 shots a game.  Now that the offense is being run through the post more maybe that is where the problems arose.  At that point you might have to choose either Kawhi or LMA.  Given that Pop gave LMA his way there is no reason for Kawhi to believe Pop is going to give Kawhi what he was promised in the reigns to the horse.

Well I feel dumber after having read that

[BigOrange1 6462]

good rule of thumb for any of you who don't already know: jhawk is an idiot and every nba take he posts is awful.

[youdunnf'dup 2147]

8 hours ago, Eastwood said:

I hope the Spurs turn this into the "Hershel Walker trade" of the NBA. Who wants to be our Minnesota Vikings?

Am I just missing something? I don’t see how that’s even possible if Leonard and his camp are

making it clear that they’re going to sign with LA after next year. How can we get a decent return from anyone, including LA, if that is actually the case. I’m sure it’s just posturing, but why would any team trade away assets for what would essentially be a one year rental. 

I’ll admit i haven’t read this thread, but only because i feel like nobody actually knows what the fuck they’re talking about. Including Woj, Chris Broussard, etc. Just seems like he has all the leverage in this situation.

Edited June 21, 2018 by youdunnf'dup

[Patrick Bateman 3918]

7 minutes ago, youdunnf'dup said:

Am I just missing something? I don’t see how that’s even possible if Leonard and his camp are

making it clear that they’re going to sign with LA after next year. How can we get a decent return from anyone, including LA, if that is actually the case. I’m sure it’s just posturing, but why would any team trade away assets for what would essentially be a one year rental. 

I’ll admit i haven’t read this thread, but only because i feel like nobody actually knows what the fuck they’re talking about. Including Woj, Chris Broussard, etc. Just seems like he has all the leverage in this situation.

Read the thread....

 

[C-Man 27246]

Am I just missing something? I don’t see how that’s even possible if Leonard and his camp are
making it clear that they’re going to sign with LA after next year. How can we get a decent return from anyone, including LA, if that is actually the case. I’m sure it’s just posturing, but why would any team trade away assets for what would essentially be a one year rental. 
I’ll admit i haven’t read this thread, but only because i feel like nobody actually knows what the fuck they’re talking about. Including Woj, Chris Broussard, etc. Just seems like he has all the leverage in this situation.

The Spurs leverage is basically is Kawhi prepared to take another season off?

[BigOrange1 6462]

2 hours ago, youdunnf'dup said:

Am I just missing something? I don’t see how that’s even possible if Leonard and his camp are

making it clear that they’re going to sign with LA after next year. How can we get a decent return from anyone, including LA, if that is actually the case. I’m sure it’s just posturing, but why would any team trade away assets for what would essentially be a one year rental. 

I’ll admit i haven’t read this thread, but only because i feel like nobody actually knows what the fuck they’re talking about. Including Woj, Chris Broussard, etc. Just seems like he has all the leverage in this situation.

pretty much the exact same thing was said about paul george last year ("pacers have no leverage, everyone knows he's going to LA next summer) and indiana was still able to get oladipo and sabonis for him.

[chikin23 384]

There are plenty of bad front offices that will take a chance on him. Spurs will get a good return.

[Gut Wagon 8086]

7 hours ago, BigOrange1 said:

pretty much the exact same thing was said about paul george last year ("pacers have no leverage, everyone knows he's going to LA next summer) and indiana was still able to get oladipo and sabonis for him.

I'd gladly take an Oladipo-Sabonis equivalent package for Kawhi right now. Of course, they got swapped for an All-Star somewhat below Kawhi's overall level but who'd at least proved he was healthy again. If we could show our guy is for sure 100 percent ready to play, that sure would help restore value.  

[Eastwood 4394]

People always underestimate sports hubris. There is always a GM/Coach/owner/player who thinks "I can change his mind because I'm me and I'm great." Hell, Cowboys fans should be well versed in it, by now. There will be a team out there who thinks they can change Kawhi's mind and get him to resign with them.

[dingleberryswitzer 2724]

7 minutes ago, Eastwood said:

People always underestimate sports hubris. There is always a GM/Coach/owner/player who thinks "I can change his mind because I'm me and I'm great." Hell, Cowboys fans should be well versed in it, by now. There will be a team out there who thinks they can change Kawhi's mind and get him to resign with them.

Especially if it's a team that was a lower seed or bubble  team that makes it past the first round of the 2019 playoffs.   It'll be harder to leave a decent to  good team vs a lottery team.  Allegedly Paul George is considering  staying in okc.  You think he'd be considering that if okc was terrible?  

 

[dingleberryswitzer 2724]

This  is assuming kawhi is focused on winning above all else, which is a bold assumption at this point . 

[krevo 142]

I've said it before - but I don't really want Kawhi Leonard to stick around.  We're losing an amazing player but anyone who would ever insinuate that an organization like the Spurs would willingly put his health at risk in order to get him active for what? Wins?  Playoff hopes?   You think Pop and RC felt like the Spurs had a chance at beating GS this year (even with Leonard?)

Any player willing to completely cut off all ties with an organization because of that isn't worthy of wearing the silver and black.  This organization has set the standard for handling star players, managing injuries and prolonging careers of their players, etc and they would never purposely bring someone back who doctors felt was still injured.  That whole story about him still being in pain despite what multiple doctors and MRIs show is fishy as fuck.  If he told them he was still in pain - no team would put him at risk of re-injuring himself.

I'm just hoping we can swindle the fuck out of someone desperate enough to give up some young stars and some picks.   

Edited June 21, 2018 by krevo

[C-Man 27246]

3 hours ago, krevo said:

I've said it before - but I don't really want Kawhi Leonard to stick around.  We're losing an amazing player but anyone who would ever insinuate that an organization like the Spurs would willingly put his health at risk in order to get him active for what? Wins?  Playoff hopes?   You think Pop and RC felt like the Spurs had a chance at beating GS this year (even with Leonard?)

Any player willing to completely cut off all ties with an organization because of that isn't worthy of wearing the silver and black.  This organization has set the standard for handling star players, managing injuries and prolonging careers of their players, etc and they would never purposely bring someone back who doctors felt was still injured.  That whole story about him still being in pain despite what multiple doctors and MRIs show is fishy as fuck.  If he told them he was still in pain - no team would put him at risk of re-injuring himself.

I'm just hoping we can swindle the fuck out of someone desperate enough to give up some young stars and some picks.   

Have to stop you right there. This team -- minus Gay -- was up 25 in Oakland in Game 1 last year before Kawhi got hurt so, yeah, I think they definitely thought if they got a shot, there would be a chance at knocking them off.

Changing the subject slight -- anybody have an idea on who we are (or should be) looking at with the 18th pick tonight? Saw something where we might move the pick -- that sounds like something we'd do.

[Eastwood 4394]

12 minutes ago, C-Man said:

Changing the subject slight -- anybody have an idea on who we are (or should be) looking at with the 18th pick tonight? Saw something where we might move the pick -- that sounds like something we'd do.

Mock draft I saw last night had us drafting Dzanan Musa. Never heard of him

[Patrick Bateman 3918]

15 minutes ago, C-Man said:

Changing the subject slight -- anybody have an idea on who we are (or should be) looking at with the 18th pick tonight? Saw something where we might move the pick -- that sounds like something we'd do.

If we moved the pick it would probably be to move a bad contract like Pau or Patty's......  Here are some of the guys we've been mocked to select if we pick:

I like Zhaire Smith and Huerter (late riser who can really shoot) at that spot..... There have been rumblings we may go big but with this current roster, I don't know how we don't draft a wing.  Only true wings we have under contract are Kawhi and..... we'll give Anderson the QO.

[C-Man 27246]

8 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

If we moved the pick it would probably be to move a bad contract like Pau or Patty's......  Here are some of the guys we've been mocked to select if we pick:

I like Zhaire Smith and Huerter (late riser who can really shoot) at that spot..... There have been rumblings we may go big but with this current roster, I don't know how we don't draft a wing.  Only true wings we have under contract are Kawhi and..... we'll give Anderson the QO.

Smith excites me.

[Eskimohorn 5642]

Have to stop you right there. This team -- minus Gay -- was up 25 in Oakland in Game 1 last year before Kawhi got hurt so, yeah, I think they definitely thought if they got a shot, there would be a chance at knocking them off.
Changing the subject slight -- anybody have an idea on who we are (or should be) looking at with the 18th pick tonight? Saw something where we might move the pick -- that sounds like something we'd do.

Concur. A lineup of Murray-Green-Leonard-Gay-LMA becomes the best defensive lineup in the league. Then Parker, Mills, Manu, Bertans and Gasol off the bench makes a good reserve unit. They would challenge and have a legit shot at a championship.

[krevo 142]

1 hour ago, Eskimohorn said:

 

Concur. A lineup of Murray-Green-Leonard-Gay-LMA becomes the best defensive lineup in the league. Then Parker, Mills, Manu, Bertans and Gasol off the bench makes a good reserve unit. They would challenge and have a legit shot at a championship.

 

You guys must've not watched the same GS team I did this year.  I'm a die hard Spurs fan and I didn't think we had a chance against them - even if we had Leonard back from a major injury.  Anyhow - I don't think for a second that the Spurs organization had any intention of bringing Kawhi back early.  The team was playing well, and was competitive up until the Playoffs.   

  

[Radical Larry 28658]

[C-Man 27246]

3 minutes ago, Radical Larry said:

 

I have to be honest -- nothing on the roster excites me.

[Patrick Bateman 3918]

4 minutes ago, Radical Larry said:

 

LOL..... along with 20 other teams.  Tell us when you make an offer.....

[Patrick Bateman 3918]

Ha, ha..... This sounds about right.

 

[Radical Larry 28658]

Good. Fuck them. 

[Gut Wagon 8086]

I'd rather move the franchise to Kilauea than trade Kawhi to the Lakers.    

[MNLonghornFUKM 8817]

Wiggins for Kawhi still on the table. We'll throw in radical Larry's favorite player Cole 'skyhook' Aldrich

[Patrick Bateman 3918]

Rumors (stress rumors) are the Clippers are trying to get into the top 10 because they want to be aggressive tonight and make their best offer for Kawhi tonight.  The Clippers best offer revolves around their lottery picks so tonight is the night for them unless they happen to draft some guys who the Spurs covet as well....