2020-2021 NBA Thread of Insanity

[conVINCEd 21468]

1 hour ago, Llogg said:

The problem is they're not getting 2018 Harden in this deal. They are getting smokes weed and eats Pringles all day COVID Harden. No way fat Harden is worth this deal. Totally gambled their next decade on a rookie coach being able to mind meld two of the worst head cases in the league. High risk, high reward, I guess, but no way I'm hitching my wagon to Beardy McFatandFat and a fucking flat-earther.

Have some rep.

[d2o 1602]

11 hours ago, ztejas said:

Sure. But KG and Pierce were essentially washed by the time they ever played a game for Brooklyn. Harden is a legitimate superstar (which Pierce never was, anyway) still in his prime.

Pierce actually showed up in the playoffs though..........................

[d2o 1602]

9 hours ago, BradInATX said:

I mean I know most of those guys (don't know Cabarot or Reggie Perry). I guess looking for more of an updated depth chart. I'm assuming they're going to have to bring in some vets or G-Leaguers just to have enough bodies?

Their not going to go more than about  9 players deep anyway barring injury.

[Blotto 23427]

KD, Harden, Irving. Yikes

 

[LTtxfan 48962]

Trying to understand why Jarrett Allen had to be traded by the Nets -- was it a Cap Space issue??

James Harden trade 

Cavaliers receive: Jarrett Allen, Taurean Prince

Nets receive: James Harden, second-round pick

Pacers receive: Caris LeVert, second-round pick

Rockets receive: Dante Exum, Rodions Kurucs, Victor Oladipo, four first-round picks (all unprotected), four first-round pick swaps (all unprotected)

Nets' picks in 2022, 2024 and 2026

Cavaliers' pick in 2022 (via Bucks)

Pick swaps with Nets in 2021, 2023, 2025 and 2027

[LTtxfan 48962]

 

[BradInATX 9208]

The problem is they're not getting 2018 Harden in this deal. They are getting smokes weed and eats Pringles all day COVID Harden. No way fat Harden is worth this deal. Totally gambled their next decade on a rookie coach being able to mind meld two of the worst head cases in the league. High risk, high reward, I guess, but no way I'm hitching my wagon to Beardy McFatandFat and a fucking flat-earther.

I don't think you can rule out a change of scenery revitalizing him. We fired smokes weed and eats Pringles all day Mack Brown and now he's "eats a healthy diet and works out" Mack at UNC.

Plus he might stay home more when he realizes the women in NYC are overrated and pale in comparison to Texas.

[Wulaw Horn 18971]

10 hours ago, Llogg said:

The problem is they're not getting 2018 Harden in this deal. They are getting smokes weed and eats Pringles all day COVID Harden. No way fat Harden is worth this deal. Totally gambled their next decade on a rookie coach being able to mind meld two of the worst head cases in the league. High risk, high reward, I guess, but no way I'm hitching my wagon to Beardy McFatandFat and a fucking flat-earther.

If you saw the opening game of the season for the rockets where Harden put up a 45/15 on the Blazers you would say he’s still worth the trouble. Basically that was his audition tape for the league and the rest of the season has been him sulking his way out of Houston in increasingly blatant ways. 

[Mitch Cumsteen 18523]

1 hour ago, LTtxfan said:

Trying to understand why Jarrett Allen had to be traded by the Nets -- was it a Cap Space issue??

James Harden trade 

Cavaliers receive: Jarrett Allen, Taurean Prince

Nets receive: James Harden, second-round pick

Pacers receive: Caris LeVert, second-round pick

Rockets receive: Dante Exum, Rodions Kurucs, Victor Oladipo, four first-round picks (all unprotected), four first-round pick swaps (all unprotected)

Nets' picks in 2022, 2024 and 2026

Cavaliers' pick in 2022 (via Bucks)

Pick swaps with Nets in 2021, 2023, 2025 and 2027

It seems that the Rockets wanted another first instead of Allen. 

[ztejas 43262]

Oh boy 

[d2o 1602]

2 hours ago, d2o said:

Their not going to go more than about  9 players deep anyway barring injury.

Good grief.  They're*

[d2o 1602]

1 minute ago, ztejas said:

Oh boy 

No clue what he thinks.   MIA isnt moving/benching Herro for him.

[d2o 1602]

34 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

It seems that the Rockets wanted another first instead of Allen. 

Yep, which makes no sense.   I know Allen is looking for a big contact after this yr and they just paid Wood and they have Boogie for this yr but Allen would be a solid add for their future.

[ztejas 43262]

1 minute ago, d2o said:

Yep, which makes no sense.   I know Allen is looking for a big contact after this yr and they just paid Wood and they have Boogie for this yr but Allen would be a solid add for their future.

Yeah. Allen is worth more than any first rounder outside the top 10.

[ztejas 43262]

1 hour ago, Wulaw Horn said:

If you saw the opening game of the season for the rockets where Harden put up a 45/15 on the Blazers you would say he’s still worth the trouble. Basically that was his audition tape for the league and the rest of the season has been him sulking his way out of Houston in increasingly blatant ways. 

I'm in the show me don't tell me camp for these 3 (at least for Kyrie and Harden - for KD I guess it's more about show me how this is going to work) - but I also know that Vegas is not in the business of losing money and they didn't set that future by mistake. KD is already taking this bare bones roster to wins by himself (granted he is probably back in the top 2 players in the world at worst discussion) and Harden is not going to continue to play Demand A Trade ball. 

I still don't know what the fuck is going on with Kyrie - but if he was also trying to make himself untradable then I guess it worked? 

They clearly have the highest ceiling in the league - maybe them and the Lakers - but their floor still seems like ugly 2nd round or ECF exit. A lot of us were wondering how KD was going to look post Achilles tear and how he and Kyrie would function together. In the games that they did play together they put those concerns to bed almost immediately. 

All 3 of them clearly want to play ball with each other. Whether that is misguided and a disaster waiting to happen or not we won't find out until April. I can definitely see Harden getting back in shape and Kyrie getting his head right enough to at least show up for games and them taking the floor together and just fuckstomping bottom half teams right out of the gate.

Something to keep in mind is that this version of Durant will be the best player that Harden has ever shared the floor with. Easily. Runner up would be KD from 2010-2012 who was an elite player but not as complete yet and far less experienced. 

I expect there to be some ugly games they lose by 12 and you look at the box score and Kyrie is 7/24 while Harden and KD shoot something like 9/15 each. I also expect there to be some games where all of them hit 4 3s and combine for 25 assists and the game is over 3 minutes into the 3rd quarter.

I am 100% convinced that it will be one of the most entertaining expirements we've ever seen in the NBA and I'm here for it. 

Another quick point: their injury insurance is through the roof. Any one of them can miss a significant stretch and they will be fine. Harden or Kyrie could miss the rest of the season and they would be fine. Even Kyrie and Harden could make a run in the playoffs without Durant (although that's certainly the worst permutation taking 2 out of 3 of them).

Edited January 14, 2021 by ztejas

[Murfdogg21 4412]

1 hour ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

It seems that the Rockets wanted another first instead of Allen. 

Who knows what the end game is? Maybe they are trying to tank and value future 1st rounders more than a guy that gets them an extra 5 wins this season, especially if that guy is looking to get paid. 
 

What can they get for Oladipo?

[SilasCoade 2620]

I will be honest, if the nets had the chance to trade Allen for oladipo and keep their picks they would have been better if with that deal than the one they just made.

[MNLonghornFUKM 8799]

What are the teams that don’t control any of their picks for the next decade? Clippers,Rockets,Nets, bucks? Although the rockets make up some of their loss with yesterday’s deal.


Trading picks into 2034 is so dumb. When these experiments crash and burn and those gms get fired, I feel for their replacements that basically have a bare cabinet and no picks.. so they’ll get fired

[Wulaw Horn 18971]

12 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

What are the teams that don’t control any of their picks for the next decade? Clippers,Rockets,Nets, bucks? Although the rockets make up some of their loss with yesterday’s deal.


Trading picks into 2034 is so dumb. When these experiments crash and burn and those gms get fired, I feel for their replacements that basically have a bare cabinet and no picks.. so they’ll get fired

Eh- nobody has anything out past 27 I don't think. There's a cap on how many picks you can trade.  Also- a swap doesn't mean you lose your pick- just that you might end up with a shittier pick. It's not a loss of an asset, just a degredation.

Worst case scenario the nets are without Caris Lavert, Jared Allen and 3 picks for 2 or 3 years of Harden and the opportunity to re-sign him if they like. That trade improved their championship odds 15% this year (and likely 15% for next year). It's extremely unlikely any asset (or even a combination of all their assets) that they gave up will add that much championship equity in the deal.  
Hoist the trophy and it's an unqualified success.  They now have the 2nd best chance this year to do that. Don't, and well, the future potentially looks bleak.  
It should be noted- the teams that have traded away that much of future picks reside in LA, LA, NY and Hou.  HOU got a bunch of that back.  I'm not going to cry for NY or LA teams losing equity. They (along with MIA) have such a huge advantage in signing FA that draft just matters a whole lot less for them as they are a destination marketplace.  Multiple ways to skin that cat.

Note- this should be viewed as a losing game for just about everyone as there are only about 5 or 7 players in the league, at any one time, that you can make a credible case can be the best player on a title contender.  The Lakers now have 2 of those guys.  The Nets now have 2 of those guys.  The clippers have 1.  The other 2 are at Golden State and Milwaukee.  In a completely related note- the top 4 teams in odds to win the title have 6 of those 7 guys, and Golden State would round at the top 5 at 7 out of 7 if Klay weren't hurt.  So, yeah, everyone else is building for the future or amusing themselves with a scrappy little team, or hoping to catch fire with an 04 Pistons type team (which is what Miami looks like it's doing), or hoping an existing piece they have grows into that type of player (Denver is a combination of the 2 with Joker and Murray and MPJR).  

[SilasCoade 2620]

NBA should implement a rule that draft picks involved in a trade cannot be further in the future than the length of the longest contact involved in the trade.

[gsoda3 3236]

11 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Note- this should be viewed as a losing game for just about everyone as there are only about 5 or 7 players in the league, at any one time, that you can make a credible case can be the best player on a title contender.  The Lakers now have 2 of those guys.  The Nets now have 2 of those guys.  The clippers have 1.  The other 2 are at Golden State and Milwaukee.  

and dallas has 1.

[d2o 1602]

15 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

and dallas has 1.

So do the Nets.  Not sure what Wulaw is talking about.

[Wulaw Horn 18971]

20 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

and dallas has 1.

Absolutely correct. Brain fart. My bad. 

[Wulaw Horn 18971]

5 minutes ago, d2o said:

So do the Nets.  Not sure what Wulaw is talking about.

Nets have 2. I said that. Unless you don’t want to count Harden. But 2018 he was as close to doing that as anyone has ever been without actually doing that. If you don’t count Harden the. You can’t count GA or Luke, which would be dumb. All 3 of those guys are in that group of 7-8 who could win a title as the best guy on a title team in a traditional sense. 

[d2o 1602]

3 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Nets have 2. I said that. Unless you don’t want to count Harden. But 2018 he was as close to doing that as anyone has ever been without actually doing that. If you don’t count Harden the. You can’t count GA or Luke, which would be dumb. All 3 of those guys are in that group of 7-8 who could win a title as the best guy on a title team in a traditional sense. 

Yeah I dont count Harden.  He's flamed out enough times (often spectacularly) for me to need to see it before I believe it.   Giannis is right on the verge of that as well.   Luka has only been to the playoffs once.    He looks the part but its speculation.

[Slacks 6791]

NBA should implement a rule that draft picks involved in a trade cannot be further in the future than the length of the longest contact involved in the trade.

Why?

[Wulaw Horn 18971]

Go Back to Jordan and count from there- that's 30 years

Year -  Best Player on title team- League status 

91-93- Jordan- Best in the league

94-95- Hakeem- Best player in the league

96-98- Jordan- Best Player in the league

99- Duncan (young)- top 5 guy in the league for sure

00-02- Shaq- Best player in the league

03- Duncan- top 2 or 3 player in the league

04- ?????? (pistons)- no top 5 player in the league- probably no top 10 player in the league- 4 top 30 or top 40 guys- exception that proves the rule

05- Duncan- Best player in the league

06- Wade- top 5 player in the league

07- Duncan- best player in the league

08- Garnett- top 5 player in the league- top 7 maybe?

09-10- Kobe- top 5 player in the league

11 - Dirk- top 5 player in the league

12-13- LBJ- Best player in the league

14- ??????-  ????????? maybe the other exception- Duncan probably isn't top 5 or top 7 anymore- Leonard probably not there yet

15- Curry- top 3 player in the league

16- LBJ- Best player in the league

17-18- Durant- top 3 player in the league

19- Leonard- top 5 player in the league

20- LBJ- top 3 player in the league.

 

The history is pretty clear over 30 years- you probably need a top 3 or 5 player in the league to win. Maybe you can extend that out to 7.  That's the formula for every title other than 2- and both of those teams were stacked top 5 players.  

 

Guys that fit that mold right now:  LBJ, Davis, Durant, Leonard, GA- squinting that you can make a case for: Harden, Curry, Luka, Joker.  That's it- that's the list.  Everything you do in team construction needs to be to get one of those 5 - 9 guys. If you are LA or NY you can get them in trade or FA. If you are any other team you need to draft.  Then, you have your tent pole and you can start building around them with the hope that you can win a title.  Those 9 guys are spread amongst 6 teams.  Anyone 2 are together (LBJ and Davis, Durant and Harden) and the other 5 are dispersed in 5 other teams.  

Guys like Tatum, Zion, maybe Joker (not sure if he should be on the initial list) look like they might get there as other guys age out.  If you want to win another title with Curry or Leonard on your team you need to have a top 15 or 20 guy to stick with them.  Same goes for Luka- which is why Dallas has some more work to do.  Joker is hoping Murray decides to become that guy, or MPJr.  

LBJ will be surpassed by Davis soon- that's why that trade is so important.  
KD, Curry and Harden probably have 2 or 3 years left as those potential guys.

Leonard might have 5.  

Joker might have 7

GA and Luka have a full decade pending injuries.  

Zion, Tatum and some of those other guys are on the clock waiting on the above list to age out of that category.  

[Wulaw Horn 18971]

13 minutes ago, d2o said:

Yeah I dont count Harden.  He's flamed out enough times (often spectacularly) for me to need to see it before I believe it.   Giannis is right on the verge of that as well.   Luka has only been to the playoffs once.    He looks the part but its speculation.

Look- if you don't want to count Harden I'm not going to slam the table and tell you that you are an idiot.  He was a bad hammy from his Robin and/or 0/27 from 3 away from taking down one of the best teams ever. I give him credit for that. You don't have to. He has 2 years to prove he's a championship winning caliber player.  Kobe in 00-02, or Pippen before him wasn't the best player on their team but their team isn't winning without them.  Harden is what- 4 or 5 straight years of 1st team all NBA?  That's a top 5 player in the league and that's basically where the cutoff comes 27 or 28 times out of 30. 

 

Even if you have that top 5 guy- most of them aren't winning a title. You need other guys. You need luck. But it just doesn't happen (with any regularity) without that top 5 guy.  Many times 2 are necessary (2nd 3 peat bulls, 3 peat lakers, maybe the heat, definitely the warriors).   

List of guys who were top 5 players in my lifetime for an appreciable amount of time without a title:

Ewing

Barkley

Malone

Harden-(yet- still has a chance).

CP3 (debatable- but he was the best PG in the league for like 5 years at least so I'm putting him here)

All of them got incredibly close only to see their title chances taken away by Jordan and the Bulls or a historically great Warriors dynasty.  Sometimes your timing sucks and you just aren't good enough but you aren't necessarily a loser.  Feel free to add to the list. I'm going to say the criteria should be something like 4 or 5 all nba first teams.  Everyone on the above list hits that criterion except for Ewing- I will give him a break with 1 first team and 6 second teams since there can be only 1 center and Hakeem basically kept him on the 2nd team, but he was still arguably a top 5 player multiple times.  

Edited January 14, 2021 by Wulaw Horn

[d2o 1602]

3 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Look- if you don't want to count Harden I'm not going to slam the table and tell you that you are an idiot.  He was a bad hammy from his Robin and/or 0/27 from 3 away from taking down one of the best teams ever. I give him credit for that. You don't have to. He has 2 years to prove he's a championship winning caliber player.  Kobe in 00-02, or Pippen before him wasn't the best player on their team but their team isn't winning without them.  Harden is what- 4 or 5 straight years of 1st team all NBA?  That's a top 5 player in the league and that's basically where the cutoff comes 27 or 28 times out of 30.  

Being part of that 0/27 is a huge deal.     The 13 TO games in closeout situations as well.   I know you love the guy but he aint proven to be that guy and he has had ample opportunity to do so.   All-NBA means reg season.  He is a great reg season player that is unquestioned.   Playoffs, not so much.

[Wulaw Horn 18971]

1 minute ago, d2o said:

Being part of that 0/27 is a huge deal.     The 13 TO games in closeout situations as well.   I know you love the guy but he aint proven to be that guy and he has had ample opportunity to do so.   All-NBA means reg season.  He is a great reg season player that is unquestioned.   Playoffs, not so much.

I actually don't love the guy. I have said multiple times that if he was a super hero he'd be aquaman- the lamest super hero but a super hero nonetheless.  Karl Malone had the same type of career where he never broke through and had big misses and came up short in places where it could have changed his legacy forever.  But, at a certain time if you are all NBA first team for half a decade or a decade I just consider you to be a top 5 player, period.  Also- Harden's career isn't over yet.  He could still get it done in the next couple year in Brooklyn.   He's also never had another super star in his prime to share the load with.  Curry has.  Durant has.  Lebron arguably has.  The best player Harden ever played with was a 33 year old CP3.  And they had an all time great Golden State team down 3-2 before Paul got hurt.  That counts for something, to me at least.  And all his playoff failures count for something too.

My argument for Harden has always been this:

People judge him more harshly than they should. He's better and more accomplished than they make him out to be. He's the starting 2 guard unquestionably on the all decade team of the 2010's.  That's a damn good player. He's also behind LBJ, KD, Steph and Leonard from that decade.  Tell me whose better than him other than those guys. He's the 5th best player of the decade/ 5th most accomplished. That's a damn good player.  He just came up against some of those other guys and lost in the playoffs. But who has he ever lost to that he shouldn't have?  That wasn't clearly better than him?

Dirk won a series against a team clearly better than his.  He gets massive props for that.  SA, on balance, was a better team than the heat even if they weren't better at the best or second best player level.  Toronto won only b/c Golden State got injured (KD and Klay). Good for them I guess. But Dirk remains the only player in the decade to win a title by beating a team he wasn't supposed to beat.  Harden didn't accomplish something that only 1 other player did in the decade and people want to kill him for it.  I'm not going to do that is all. Doesn't mean I love him.  He's sort of like the Colt McCoy of the NBA.  No title. Bad luck a couple times. Excruciatingly close.  Incredible production.  Didn't happen for him. 

[d2o 1602]

3 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I actually don't love the guy. I have said multiple times that if he was a super hero he'd be aquaman- the lamest super hero but a super hero nonetheless.  Karl Malone had the same type of career where he never broke through and had big misses and came up short in places where it could have changed his legacy forever.  But, at a certain time if you are all NBA first team for half a decade or a decade I just consider you to be a top 5 player, period.  Also- Harden's career isn't over yet.  He could still get it done in the next couple year in Brooklyn.   He's also never had another super star in his prime to share the load with.  Curry has.  Durant has.  Lebron arguably has.  The best player Harden ever played with was a 33 year old CP3.  And they had an all time great Golden State team down 3-2 before Paul got hurt.  That counts for something, to me at least.  And all his playoff failures count for something too.

My argument for Harden has always been this:

People judge him more harshly than they should. He's better and more accomplished than they make him out to be. He's the starting 2 guard unquestionably on the all decade team of the 2010's.  That's a damn good player. He's also behind LBJ, KD, Steph and Leonard from that decade.  Tell me whose better than him other than those guys. He's the 5th best player of the decade/ 5th most accomplished. That's a damn good player.  He just came up against some of those other guys and lost in the playoffs. But who has he ever lost to that he shouldn't have?  That wasn't clearly better than him?

Dirk won a series against a team clearly better than his.  He gets massive props for that.  SA, on balance, was a better team than the heat even if they weren't better at the best or second best player level.  Toronto won only b/c Golden State got injured (KD and Klay). Good for them I guess. But Dirk remains the only player in the decade to win a title by beating a team he wasn't supposed to beat.  Harden didn't accomplish something that only 1 other player did in the decade and people want to kill him for it.  I'm not going to do that is all. Doesn't mean I love him.  He's sort of like the Colt McCoy of the NBA.  No title. Bad luck a couple times. Excruciatingly close.  Incredible production.  Didn't happen for him. 

You keep saying the same thing over and over.    He is a top 5 REG SEASON player.   That isn't the debate.     His playoff flameouts have shown he cannot be the #1 guy on a title team.     I've seen enough to say that until he proves otherwise.

[d2o 1602]

 

 

[Wulaw Horn 18971]

9 minutes ago, d2o said:

 

 

That’s 4th in playoff points. That seems like a top 5 player to me. The only guys better are a top 2, top 15 and top 20 guy of all time. I’m not sure what the point was on that?

[d2o 1602]

2 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

That’s 4th in playoff points. That seems like a top 5 player to me. The only guys better are a top 2, top 15 and top 20 guy of all time. I’m not sure what the point was on that?

Good grief.

[Wulaw Horn 18971]

Just now, d2o said:

Good grief.

I'm not trying to cause you consternation. I'm actually enjoying the back and forth. I don't understand what you are trying to say here though. You said he's a top 5 regular season player but not top 5 playoff player, then you posted a graphic that he's #1 in points in regular season and #4 in playoff points.  I don't understand what that point is?  Where do you have him as "a playoff player"?  For me he's a top 3 regular season guy and a top 5 or 6 playoff guy behind LBJ, Leonard, Curry and Durant. Do you have someone else ahead of him as a "playoff guy?"

[d2o 1602]

1 minute ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I'm not trying to cause you consternation. I'm actually enjoying the back and forth. I don't understand what you are trying to say here though. You said he's a top 5 regular season player but not top 5 playoff player, then you posted a graphic that he's #1 in points in regular season and #4 in playoff points.  I don't understand what that point is?  Where do you have him as "a playoff player"?  For me he's a top 3 regular season guy and a top 5 or 6 playoff guy behind LBJ, Leonard, Curry and Durant. Do you have someone else ahead of him as a "playoff guy?"

He has more pts than anyone in the reg season.    For playoff scoring he is behind two guys who completely missed the last playoffs.  He avg's 3-5 ppg less in the playoffs.   his FG% drops by at least a couple pts in the playoffs for is career.   That is the point.   

You're arguing two different things.   If you wanna say he's a top 5 active playoff guy, I guess go ahead.    That still doesn't make him a guy that can be the #1 on a title team and I've listed the reasons why and that was the point of contention.

[Wulaw Horn 18971]

11 minutes ago, d2o said:

He has more pts than anyone in the reg season.    For playoff scoring he is behind two guys who completely missed the last playoffs.  He avg's 3-5 ppg less in the playoffs.   his FG% drops by at least a couple pts in the playoffs for is career.   That is the point.   

You're arguing two different things.   If you wanna say he's a top 5 active playoff guy, I guess go ahead.    That still doesn't make him a guy that can be the #1 on a title team and I've listed the reasons why and that was the point of contention.

Fair enough.  I went pretty in depth earlier on the history dating back to 1990.  Truly, most of the best guys on title teams were top 3 guys in the league, so if you want to say Harden is 5 or 6 and make the cut at only top 3 or 4 can be top guy on a title team that's a fair point I guess. It's really hard to win a title. I will leave it alone now. 

Thanks

 

[UpperWestside 6134]

4 hours ago, d2o said:

Yeah I dont count Harden.

I don't either. They have one elite superstar in Durant and that's it. Harden had an opportunity to develop into one, but he does not seem to enjoy the defensive end of the floor all that much. Irving has never been a superstar despite being paid like one.

[Slacks 6791]

Man, y'all are crazy...

Harden is an elite offensive player.
What he isn't is mature.

Only Dirk and Dream have ever won titles without another high level player.

Harden could have if he was more mentally prepared... But in terms of offense, he is still top 5 right now... LeBron, KD, Harden/Curry, whomever.

And skrippas.

[Wulaw Horn 18971]

2 hours ago, UpperWestside said:

I don't either. They have one elite superstar in Durant and that's it. Harden had an opportunity to develop into one, but he does not seem to enjoy the defensive end of the floor all that much. Irving has never been a superstar despite being paid like one.

Cool. So there are literally only 3 elite superstars in the NBA then. Maybe 4. If harden isn’t on that list that means the list can’t go any longer than LBJ, KD, Leonard and Steph. And Leonard only gets to be on that list bc KD and Klay got hurt in the finals. 

Edited January 15, 2021 by Wulaw Horn

[SilasCoade 2620]

TIL that snacks thinks Jason kidd sucked.

[Machinator 32097]

7 minutes ago, Llogg said:

TIL that snacks thinks Jason kidd sucked.

Kidd wasn't a "high-level" player in 2011. Great role player.

[conVINCEd 21468]

4 minutes ago, Llogg said:

TIL that snacks thinks Jason kidd sucked.

That Mavs team was a weird compilation of talent.  They had 4 guys who weren’t quite 2nd guys on a championship team and made it work.  Kidd was older, Marion was a little  past his prime, Chandler was never going to be more than defense and rebounding, and Terry was a 6th man of the year type.  It worked.

[SilasCoade 2620]

I know, I was just trying to get a rise out of Snacks.

[Radical Larry 28528]

 

[ztejas 43262]

2 minutes ago, Radical Larry said:

 

Anyone wanna manage a fantasy team?

Jk. Sort of. But, that sucks for him. He's not too far removed from his last injury recovery.

[shadow_operative 15932]

 

 

[d2o 1602]

17 hours ago, Snacks said:

18 hours ago, Llogg said:

NBA should implement a rule that draft picks involved in a trade cannot be further in the future than the length of the longest contact involved in the trade.

Why?

Yeah, I am not for rules to protect teams from themselves.    They have way too many of them already and teams just figure out ways around them.   Pick swaps is the workaround to the Stepien Rule

[d2o 1602]

He's had about 15 incredible dunks already 

7 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

 

 

Miles has had about 15 incredible dunks already this season.   Melo sets him up constantly too

[d2o 1602]

10 hours ago, Snacks said:

Man, y'all are crazy...

Harden is an elite offensive player.
What he isn't is mature.

Only Dirk and Dream have ever won titles without another high level player.

Harden could have if he was more mentally prepared... But in terms of offense, he is still top 5 right now... LeBron, KD, Harden/Curry, whomever.

And skrippas.

Being an elite offensive player only isnt enough to be the #1 guy leading your team to a title.