2020-2021 NBA Thread of Insanity

[52-80 19081]

11 hours ago, Snacks said:

Man, y'all are crazy...

Harden is an elite offensive player.
What he isn't is mature.

Only Dirk and Dream have ever won titles without another high level player.

Harden could have if he was more mentally prepared... But in terms of offense, he is still top 5 right now... LeBron, KD, Harden/Curry, whomever.

And skrippas.

how dare you disrespect vernon maxwell like that

[d2o 1602]

11 hours ago, Snacks said:

Man, y'all are crazy...

Harden is an elite offensive player.
What he isn't is mature.

Only Dirk and Dream have ever won titles without another high level player.

Harden could have if he was more mentally prepared... But in terms of offense, he is still top 5 right now... LeBron, KD, Harden/Curry, whomever.

And skrippas.

And Isiah Thomas says "wut?"

[d2o 1602]

 

Love this shit.   Call these a-holes out.   Its your job to know the Christian Woods of the league.

 

[ChiTownDoc 21098]

17 hours ago, Snacks said:

Man, y'all are crazy...

Harden is an elite offensive player.
What he isn't is mature.

Only Dirk and Dream have ever won titles without another high level player.

Harden could have if he was more mentally prepared... But in terms of offense, he is still top 5 right now... LeBron, KD, Harden/Curry, whomever.

And skrippas.

That’s the thing.  The lack of mental fortitude and slacking off catch up to him right when you think it would - playoffs.  Look at Wulaw’s list.  That entire list is full of people who live, eat, breath hoops.  You could argue against Shaq, but that’s it.  He can keep being a regular season hero or he can count on KD (or WB? Lulz) carrying his ass but it was never gonna be him getting that ring as the alpha.  
 

edit: speling 

Edited January 15, 2021 by ChiTownDoc

[d2o 1602]

 

 

[MNLonghornFUKM 8799]

What exactly did Barkley say that was false? Irving is a dribbler, Harden is a dribbler with a ridiculous first step. Neither can touch klay or steph in shooting or moving without the ball department.

[d2o 1602]

42 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

What exactly did Barkley say that was false? Irving is a dribbler, Harden is a dribbler with a ridiculous first step. Neither can touch klay or steph in shooting or moving without the ball department.

Are we forgetting that they instituted a rule cause Barkley just dribbled the ball while backing in for 10-15 secs?   

[Vic Mackey 46932]

[Slacks 6791]

2 hours ago, d2o said:

And Isiah Thomas says "wut?"

Rodman DMVP, 1st All NBA, 1st All Defense

Joe Dumars, 3rd All NBA, 1st All Defense

[d2o 1602]

15 minutes ago, Snacks said:

Rodman DMVP, 1st All NBA, 1st All Defense

Joe Dumars, 3rd All NBA, 1st All Defense

rodman wasnt no damn 1st team all-nba hahahahahaaaahahaha   He was a great role player for them but he didn't even start for most of their 2 title teams.   

Edited January 15, 2021 by d2o

[Slacks 6791]

12 minutes ago, d2o said:

rodman wasnt no damn 1st team all-nba hahahahahaaaahahaha

Yeah, my bad... was multi-tasking.

DMVP and 1st All Defense.

 

But the point remains... Isaiah Thomas did not carry a team of regs to the finals... He had two HoF players with him, playing at an All NBA level.

[d2o 1602]

3 minutes ago, Snacks said:

Yeah, my bad... was multi-tasking.

DMVP and 1st All Defense.

 

But the point remains... Isaiah Thomas did not carry a team of regs to the finals... He had two HoF players with him, playing at an All NBA level.

Debateable.   Rodman wasn't HOF level yet and was not playing at all NBA level and Dumars is one of the weakest HOF players in there IMO.   Whatever though.

[Patrick Bateman 3903]

3 hours ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

What exactly did Barkley say that was false? Irving is a dribbler, Harden is a dribbler with a ridiculous first step. Neither can touch klay or steph in shooting or moving without the ball department.

It wasn't what he said was false as much as it was ironic and lacked self awareness considering most of what Charles would do in his prime Phoenix years was dribble with his back to the basket for 15 seconds and either kick it out or shoot a fadeaway or spin move.  The Nets will definitely have issues with ball movement.

 

[Slacks 6791]

1 hour ago, d2o said:

Debateable.   Rodman wasn't HOF level yet and was not playing at all NBA level and Dumars is one of the weakest HOF players in there IMO.   Whatever though.

Rodman was DMVP.

Dumars lead the team in scoring and was 1st team All NBA Defense.

i dont understand the debate.  the point was Dirk and Dream didn't have help and nobody else took a team of regs to the chip.  The counter was Isaiah Thomas.  I pointed out Rodman and Dumars as a counter to that.  The awards agree. You don't.  Cool.

 

 

[d2o 1602]

1 minute ago, Snacks said:

Rodman was DMVP.

Dumars lead the team in scoring and was 1st team All NBA Defense.

i dont understand the debate.  the point was Dirk and Dream didn't have help and nobody else took a team of regs to the chip.  The counter was Isaiah Thomas.  I pointed out Rodman and Dumars as a counter to that.  The awards agree. You don't.  Cool.

 

 

Meh, I grew up in DET watching those teams.    Like I said, Rodman started less than half of the games in their 2 yr title run.   He was great but he was a role player.    Anyone who actually watched the team will tell you Isiah led them.   And saying Dirk and Dream had no help is a silly concept in the first place but carry on.

[Wulaw Horn 18971]

2 hours ago, d2o said:

Debateable.   Rodman wasn't HOF level yet and was not playing at all NBA level and Dumars is one of the weakest HOF players in there IMO.   Whatever though.

I only went back to 1990 bc I was 12 then. I just didn’t have the proper context for anything prior to Jordan. That’s why Thomas wasn’t on my list. I can’t have an opinion on that based on anything other than stats. He probably could go on the list with Hakeem and dirk but I left him off bc it was prior to 1990

[Slacks 6791]

16 minutes ago, d2o said:

Meh, I grew up in DET watching those teams.    Like I said, Rodman started less than half of the games in their 2 yr title run.   He was great but he was a role player.    Anyone who actually watched the team will tell you Isiah led them.   And saying Dirk and Dream had no help is a silly concept in the first place but carry on.

Doesn't matter if he "started". He played in every game and was the DMVP in those two years... on a team that prided itself on being a defensive team.

And I didn't say Dirk and Dream had no help (or if I did, I didn't mean to).  But they certainly did not play with stars on their championship runs.  If they did, I'm listening.

[hobbes2702 12799]

5 hours ago, d2o said:

Being an elite offensive player only isnt enough to be the #1 guy leading your team to a title.     

You keep saying he’s not a top 5 playoff guy. So who are those guys?

1. Lebron

2. KD

3. AD

4. Kawhi

5. Steph?

I mean if he’s not too 5 then he’s like top 7. 

25 minutes ago, d2o said:

Meh, I grew up in DET watching those teams.    Like I said, Rodman started less than half of the games in their 2 yr title run.   He was great but he was a role player.    Anyone who actually watched the team will tell you Isiah led them.   And saying Dirk and Dream had no help is a silly concept in the first place but carry on.

Role players don’t win defensive POY

[Patrick Bateman 3903]

40 minutes ago, Snacks said:

Rodman was DMVP.

Dumars lead the team in scoring and was 1st team All NBA Defense.

i dont understand the debate.  the point was Dirk and Dream didn't have help and nobody else took a team of regs to the chip.  The counter was Isaiah Thomas.  I pointed out Rodman and Dumars as a counter to that.  The awards agree. You don't.  Cool.

 

 

Actually Tim Duncan 03' is another real answer.  That was Admiral's last year and he only played 3/4 of the season and really looked old in the playoffs.  Basically was a rebounder and defender, nowhere near an All-Star level.  Manu showed flashes and he would break the next year but at that time he was just a solid bench guy.  Parker was 20 years old and just getting his ears wet.  He would get replaced in crunch time on the reg by Speedy Claxton.  It was a fun team because it had a bunch of characters -- Captain Jax, Manu, TP, Old man Kevin Willis and GMs to be in Danny Ferry and Steve Kerr who were certainly over the hill.  The biggest delta in BPM and VORP between Dirk, Dream and TD that season was the SA team.  The WS48 and PER deltas were extremely similar.

Everyone just assumes Manu and Tony were great from the start but they definitely had to grow into their roles..... That was also the last run with that iteration of the team.  Team would turn over the next year with Admiral retiring and replaced with Rasho (ugh.  Captain Jax would leave in FA because of ego and the old guys were turned over and cleared out.  03' was a year they 

 

[Machinator 32097]

To me, Duncan '03 is the classic example of a player putting a team on his back for the whole season.

[MNLonghornFUKM 8799]

To me, Duncan '03 is the classic example of a player putting a team on his back for the whole season.

What Duncan did in his career, I have no idea why he’s not in top 2 or 3 players of all time conversations. Instead he’s always barely top 10


Bank shots, rebounding, defense, 5 rings and about 18 55+ wins/season aren’t as popular as dunks, athleticism and headlines


My favorite is Duncan’s Spurs spent about 19 total days under .500 for his entire career. Unheard of

[Patrick Bateman 3903]

1 minute ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

What Duncan did in his career, I have no idea why he’s not in top 2 or 3 players of all time conversations. Instead he’s always barely top 10

Flash.  And in fairness as a Spurs fan I don’t think he’s up with MJ, KAJ and Lebron but I think he should be on the top 3 if I was starting a franchise.  His intangibles and setting and embracing culture was off the charts.  Kareem was surly and stoic.  Lebron has got much better but still can pout.  Magic’s a guy I would look at too.

[Vic Mackey 46932]

I'd put Steph and Klay above Harden in terms of playoff performance. What Klay did in game 6 in the 2016 WCF against the Thunder that caused a seismic shift after that series was done is way more clutch than anything Harden has did in the playoffs. I can't give a lot of credit for almost getting there for him. 2018 was the year for them. They had a 3-2 lead on Golden State and a huge lead in game 6. And folded. Lead in game 7 and then the whole 0/27 happened. Without Chris Paul or not, they choked the end of that series. And in 2017, the embarrassing loss to close the series to SA.

But for this era, he is top 10. I'd have to put Kyrie over him just for his role in the 2016 Finals. And them beating Boston in the 2018 ECF with how they did it. 

[d2o 1602]

30 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

 

Role players don’t win defensive POY

Marc Gasol, Tyson Chandler, Marcus Camby, and Ron Artest all say they do.

[d2o 1602]

33 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

You keep saying he’s not a top 5 playoff guy. So who are those guys?

1. Lebron

2. KD

3. AD

4. Kawhi

5. Steph?

I mean if he’s not too 5 then he’s like top 7. 

 

I've not said whether he was top whatever in the playoffs.   My only point throughout that discussion is that he is not a guy that can be the #1 on a team that wins a title.   Whether that makes him top 2 or top 20 is completely irrelevant

[Slacks 6791]

14 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Actually Tim Duncan 03' is another real answer.  That was Admiral's last year and he only played 3/4 of the season and really looked old in the playoffs.  Basically was a rebounder and defender, nowhere near an All-Star level.  Manu showed flashes and he would break the next year but at that time he was just a solid bench guy.  Parker was 20 years old and just getting his ears wet.  He would get replaced in crunch time on the reg by Speedy Claxton.  It was a fun team because it had a bunch of characters -- Captain Jax, Manu, TP, Old man Kevin Willis and GMs to be in Danny Ferry and Steve Kerr who were certainly over the hill.  The biggest delta in BPM and VORP between Dirk, Dream and TD that season was the SA team.  The WS48 and PER deltas were extremely similar.

Everyone just assumes Manu and Tony were great from the start but they definitely had to grow into their roles..... That was also the last run with that iteration of the team.  Team would turn over the next year with Admiral retiring and replaced with Rasho (ugh.  Captain Jax would leave in FA because of ego and the old guys were turned over and cleared out.  03' was a year they 

 

Ah, yeah... I forgot about TD in 2003.  I'll allow it.

I do remember Tony Parker going nuts later in the end of the playoffs after Pop got into his ass for being soft.

[Patrick Bateman 3903]

6 minutes ago, Snacks said:

Ah, yeah... I forgot about TD in 2003.  I'll allow it.

I do remember Tony Parker going nuts later in the end of the playoffs after Pop got into his ass for being soft.

Yea, TP played better in the playoffs.  14.5 and 3.5 assists was valuable for that team but it's not like he was a force, but still was below average overall (PER, negative WS and VORP) in the playoffs.  Admiral gutted out the playoffs and played well enough defensively to be pretty valuable including a big game in game 7 IIRC.  But still 7.8 points and 6.6 rebounds per game in the playoffs.  His back was just shot.

[ChiTownDoc 21098]

3 hours ago, Vic Mackey said:

https://streamable.com/pglc5a
 

It’s a good watch.  

[Serak The Preparer 3424]

I get why people bring up Dirk, Isiah, and even Duncan when talking about lack of 2nd option or leading a team to a title, but even they are a clear step below Hakeem in the 1994 championship in terms of being responsible for a title. I am a Houston homer, I acknowledge that, but people forget about how mediocre the entire Rockets team was outside of Hakeem. For example, I know scoring isn't everything, but in the regular season Hakeem averaged 27.3 pts per game. For those playing along at home, try to guess who was second on the team. Go ahead, guess. In case you've forgotten, it was the not-hall-of-famer Otis Thorpe with 14.0 pts per game. Hakeem very nearly doubled the 2nd best scoring player on the team.

Looking at the playoffs, believe it or not, it gets more extreme. In the 1994 playoffs Hakeem increased his scoring to 28.9 pts per game, while the second place scoring dropped! It goes down to 13.8 with the again not-hall-of-famer Vernon Maxwell. Hakeem more than doubled the scoring of his second-place teammate, while being the key defensive linchpin of the team.

This is not to crap on Dirk, Tim, etc., but they are all clearly a step behind Hakeem in terms of title responsibility.

[ChiTownDoc 21098]

1 minute ago, Serak The Preparer said:

I get why people bring up Dirk, Isiah, and even Duncan when talking about lack of 2nd option or leading a team to a title, but even they are a clear step below Hakeem in the 1994 championship in terms of being responsible for a title. I am a Houston homer, I acknowledge that, but people forget about how mediocre the entire Rockets team was outside of Hakeem. For example, I know scoring isn't everything, but in the regular season Hakeem averaged 27.3 pts per game. For those playing along at home, try to guess who was second on the team. Go ahead, guess. In case you've forgotten, it was the not-hall-of-famer Otis Thorpe with 14.0 pts per game. Hakeem very nearly doubled the 2nd best scoring player on the team.

Looking at the playoffs, believe it or not, it gets more extreme. In the 1994 playoffs Hakeem increased his scoring to 28.9 pts per game, while the second place scoring dropped! It goes down to 13.8 with the again not-hall-of-famer Vernon Maxwell. Hakeem more than doubled the scoring of his second-place teammate, while being the key defensive linchpin of the team.

This is not to crap on Dirk, Tim, etc., but they are all clearly a step behind Hakeem in terms of title responsibility.

I always wondered how Hakeem would have gone down in history if he didn’t overlap with Jordan and was in LA or NYC.  So underrated.  And I mean go down in history amongst the casuals...die hards know all about The Dream.  

[MNLonghornFUKM 8799]

https://streamable.com/pglc5a
 
It’s a good watch.  

d20 will find something and say shaq was in the wrong here

[d2o 1602]

2 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

d20 will find something to shaq was in the wrong

Not at all.  In, fact he is saying pretty much everything I've said here.    I point out when Shaq is being hypocritical or otherwise useless on the show (which is often).   My dislike for him on the is not irrational at all

[hobbes2702 12799]

43 minutes ago, d2o said:

Marc Gasol, Tyson Chandler, Marcus Camby, and Ron Artest all say they do.

Gasol - 33 mpg, Chandler - 33 mpg, Camby - 33 mpg, Artest - 37 mpg.

What exactly do you think a role player is?

[d2o 1602]

1 minute ago, hobbes2702 said:

Gasol - 33 mpg, Chandler - 33 mpg, Camby - 33 mpg, Artest - 37 mpg.

What exactly do you think a role player is?

A guy who is not one of your star players.    Who is relied on for a specific portion of their game not impacting all aspects of the game.   A rebounder, a defender, a scorer or a distributor but not all of those things.  Ya know........filling a role.  

And Rodman avgd 29 mins that yr he won DPOY BTW

[hobbes2702 12799]

1 minute ago, d2o said:

A guy who is not one of your star players.    Who is relied on for a specific portion of their game not impacting all aspects of the game.   A rebounder, a defender, a scorer or a distributor but not all of those things.  Ya know........filling a role.  

And Rodman avgd 29 mins that yr he won DPOY BTW

DPOYs who average 30 mpg are not role players in sense of the common use of that phrase. Come on man. 

[d2o 1602]

1 minute ago, hobbes2702 said:

DPOYs who average 30 mpg are not role players in sense of the common use of that phrase. Come on man. 

When they only fill a role, sure they do.............like those listed.  

[hobbes2702 12799]

1 minute ago, d2o said:

When they only fill a role, sure they do.............like those listed.  

Ok. HOFers are role players. Got it lol.

Seriously you said “a guy who is not one of your star players”. A DPOY is one of your star players. Every guy you listed was an all star. They will probably all make the HOF or close to it. Those are stars 

Edited January 15, 2021 by hobbes2702

[d2o 1602]

2 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Ok. HOFers are role players. Got it lol

Yeah, there are plenty in the HOF.   Further because you are a HOF player doesn't mean you were not a role player at one point in time.   

Edited January 15, 2021 by d2o

[d2o 1602]

22 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Ok. HOFers are role players. Got it lol.

Seriously you said “a guy who is not one of your star players”. A DPOY is one of your star players. Every guy you listed was an all star. They will probably all make the HOF or close to it. Those are stars 

Yeah, and there have been plenty of guys who are role players that were all-stars.    That's no gotcha.   So was Michael Cooper a star player?

[hobbes2702 12799]

5 minutes ago, d2o said:

Yeah, and there have been plenty of guys who are role players that were all-stars.    That's no gotcha.   So was Michael Cooper a star player?

In 86/87 he was. The best defensive player in the NBA is a star for at least the season they win the DPOY.  
This is a dumb, pedantic, spin off of the original point anyway which is that IT did not win that title as the only start

[d2o 1602]

25 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

In 86/87 he was. The best defensive player in the NBA is a star for at least the season they win the DPOY.  
This is a dumb, pedantic, spin off of the original point anyway which is that IT did not win that title as the only start

Meh the issue is you seem to see role player as a slight.    Its not.  Nothing wrong with being a role player.   EVERY SINGLE successful team has had great role players.    They filled particular roles for their teams.   

Shit we were just talking about David freakin Robinson being a role player on that title team.   Just you could have done more in the past or would do more in the future (Kawhi) doesn't make you more than a role player in that time and just because you are the best in your role in the entire league doesn't make you any more than a role player.

[Machinator 32097]

 

[d2o 1602]

Yeah just coming to post that.    When a good number of family members have died from this its scary as hell.    I hope he is ok.

[Wulaw Horn 18971]

4 hours ago, d2o said:

I've not said whether he was top whatever in the playoffs.   My only point throughout that discussion is that he is not a guy that can be the #1 on a team that wins a title.   Whether that makes him top 2 or top 20 is completely irrelevant

I think at the end of the day this is you and I’d only point if disagreement:

you are saying at the end of the day he can’t be the alpha on a playoff team. I’m saying he wasn’t the alpha on a playoff team. Those are two slightly different things in my mind. Ewing, Barkley, Malone and Harden all could have as evidenced by being so damn close. They didn’t. That doesn’t mean they couldn’t have with a little luck. 
I pretty much agree with everything else you are saying that people are giving you shit about for role players and the like. 

[MNLonghornFUKM 8799]

I’m surprised he didn’t get it when his parents did...he’s pretty close to them and I think they live in MN now too. Could be off on that tho

[d2o 1602]

17 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I think at the end of the day this is you and I’d only point if disagreement:

you are saying at the end of the day he can’t be the alpha on a playoff team. I’m saying he wasn’t the alpha on a playoff team. Those are two slightly different things in my mind. Ewing, Barkley, Malone and Harden all could have as evidenced by being so damn close. They didn’t. That doesn’t mean they couldn’t have with a little luck. 
I pretty much agree with everything else you are saying that people are giving you shit about for role players and the like. 

Nah, with the way that Harden has folded (in spectacular fashion) in the times where they needed a #1 guy the most I don't think that cause he got close he could.    He got close but his failure was most often the cause of the failure.    Annually we heard about how tired he was\looked when it got down to nut cutting time.   You think MJ or Kobe or many others would have been out partying all off season or out working like a fucking psycho to make sure that shit didn't happen again?    That is the difference and THAT is why he cannot be a #1 on a title team so no I don't think it was just bad luck that kept him from winning.    It was generally a culmination of his actions.

Malone was just not mentally strong enough to get it done................and he ran into MJ

Barkley was generally not focused enough......................and he ran into MJ

Ewing was very good but he never had even close to good enough of a team around him ..........and he ran into MJ

Edited January 16, 2021 by d2o

[Wulaw Horn 18971]

Just now, d2o said:

Nah, with the way that Harden has folded (in spectacular fashion) in the times where they needed a #1 guy the most I don't think that cause he got close he could.    He got close but his failure was most often the cause of the failure.    Annually we heard about how tired he was\looked when it got down to nut cutting time.   You think MJ or Kobe or many others would have been out partying all off season or out working like a fucking psycho to make sure that shit didn't happen again?    That is the difference and THAT is why he cannot be a #1 on a title team so no I don't think it was just bad luck that kept him from winning.    It was a generally a culmination of his actions.

Malone was just not mentally strong enough to get it done................and he ran into MJ

Barkley was generally focused enough......................and he ran into MJ

Ewing was very good but he never had even close to good enough of a team around him ..........and he ran into MJ

Ewing went to game 7 against the Rockets and they lost by single digits when Starks went 2-18. That’s pretty fucking close. The Knocks were a Hakeem ridiculous block in game 6 on a 3 pointer away from winning. I will just never underestimate luck in winning a title. None of that shit is preordained at the highest level. 

 

[d2o 1602]

2 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Ewing went to game 7 against the Rockets and they lost by single digits when Starks went 2-18. That’s pretty fucking close. The Knocks were a Hakeem ridiculous block in game 6 on a 3 pointer away from winning. I will just never underestimate luck in winning a title. None of that shit is preordained at the highest level. 

 

Ewing also got FUCKING DESTROYED by Hakeem only avg'd 19/12 and shot 36% in that series.     They didn't lose cause of Starks or bad luck.   They lost mainly because their main guy couldn't get it done when they needed him.

[Brothahorn 10085]

Quote

 

Amid thinning rosters in the darkest days of the coronavirus pandemic, the NBA is progressing toward an expansion of regular-season rosters, sources told ESPN.

The NBA and National Basketball Players Association must still agree on the details of granting teams an additional two-way roster spot for the balance of the regular season, but those talks are expected to soon culminate with an agreement and deeper roster options for teams struggling with COVID-19 issues, sources said.

 

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/30718766/sources-nba-moving-expanded-rosters

 

Should have already been done. It may cost more money, but I doubt it costs as much as the bubble did. Plus you can't keep postponing games simply because teams don't have enough players. Already had a shortened off season, so you can't drag this one out forever and then try to start again this winter. This will help.

[Brothahorn 10085]