2020-2021 NBA Thread of Insanity

[hobbes2702 13469]

3 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Then why would you bother with 30+ teams?  I don’t have a problem with it but it’s not the model they choose and collectively bargained for. 

Then why are you criticizing a player for “tanking” but not criticizing teams for the same actions? And I’m not sure your point about the number of teams? Are you saying the salary cap is the only thing keeping some teams competitive? That sounds like a problem of those teams to solve. 
 

[ChickenSandwich 9958]

6 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Then why are you criticizing a player for “tanking” but not criticizing teams for the same actions? And I’m not sure your point about the number of teams? Are you saying the salary cap is the only thing keeping some teams competitive? That sounds like a problem of those teams to solve. 
 

When a team tanks they simply put lesser players on the floor. I don’t feel those players are actively trying to lose games. They just aren’t good. They are still professional NBA players, who are basically playing for their next contract or team.  It’s not major league. 
 

That is completely different situation(IMO) than an individual quitting on his teammates and tanking games by himself when the other teammates are trying to win games. 

Edited February 18, 2021 by ChickenSandwich

[hobbes2702 13469]

1 minute ago, ChickenSandwich said:

When a team tanks they simply put lesser players on the floor. I don’t feel those players are actively trying to lose games. They just aren’t good. That is completely different situation(IMO) than an individual quitting on his teammates and tanking games by himself when the other teammates are trying to win games. 

So it’s ok for the organization to quit on the players who are good enough not to tank? How about the fans? The organization just says fuck y’all and the money you spend with us? It just seems like you are holding players to a higher standard than the teams even though the players are the only reason anyone cares to watch.

[ChickenSandwich 9958]

How is the organization quitting on these professional NBA players?  Are they paying them less than the NBA min?  
 

They are professionals payed to play basketball. The organization isn’t on the floor executing a tank. They just trade their talent away to try to acquire more talent later. They are also giving these players more action to sell themselves for their next contract. Would these guys rather NOT be playing and watching other teammates win?  I bet they would rather be on the floor than win the game. 
 

You keep acting like the organization is firing all of their professionals and bringing up a full D league team or something to tank. For an example, see the jets. The players don’t care if the organization is trying to lose for draft picks. They play for their own livelihoods and them tanking would only hurt themselves. 

[ztejas 44228]

1 hour ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Will have to find the post where I had all of the correct details, but if you remove the 1 title teams (Toronto, Dallas etc) only 7 teams have won an NBA title since 1980. 

Parity has gotten better, though. From 1984 to 2004 only 6 franchises won an NBA championship. From 2004 to 2020 9 did - including 5 that didn't win in that previous window. 

Excluding one-off teams is disingenuous to boot. Winning an NBA championship is a HUGE deal unless you're the Lakers who have never really experienced a drought. And if you look at the past decade - from 2010 to 2019 - really only Miami can attribute their titles to free agency. Kobe was drafted by the Lakers. Dirk was drafted by the Mavs. The Spurs had zero big FAs in 2014. The Warriors were homegrown - sure they landed KD but that was because of what they had already built through the draft. They weren't a FA destination prior to that. The Cavs got LeBron to come back but they were the team that drafted him and he was from there. Toronto traded for Kawhi and built through the draft. 

The NBA is a far cry from the EPL or any other major soccer league - because there is a salary cap and a draft.

Edited February 18, 2021 by ztejas

[Kermit 3162]

Fuck Kawhi Leonard.

[hobbes2702 13469]

2 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

How is the organization quitting on these professional NBA players?  Are they paying them less than the NBA min?  
 

They are professionals payed to play basketball. The organization isn’t on the floor executing a tank. They just trade their talent away to try to acquire more talent later. They are also giving these players more action to sell themselves for their next contract. Would these guys rather NOT be playing and watching other teammates win?  I bet they would rather be on the floor than win the game. 
 

You keep acting like the organization is firing all of their professionals and bringing up a full D league team or something to tank. For an example, see the jets. The players don’t care if the organization is trying to lose for draft picks. They play for their own livelihoods and them tanking would only hurt themselves. 

When they sit players that could contribute to winning, which happens all the time, then they are screwing those players in an effort to tank.

Im not talking about the guy who gets the call up, I’m talking about the guy whose minutes get cut so they can lose.

[Mitch Cumsteen 18963]

6 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

When they sit players that could contribute to winning, which happens all the time, then they are screwing those players in an effort to tank.

Im not talking about the guy who gets the call up, I’m talking about the guy whose minutes get cut so they can lose.

When they sit players that could contribute to winning for load management, which happens all the time, then they are helping those guys at the expense of the team. 

[Machinator 32103]

2 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

When they sit players that could contribute to winning for load management, which happens all the time, then they are helping those guys at the expense of the team. 

You could argue that they're helping the team in the long run by preserving stars for the playoffs, but that has to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

[hobbes2702 13469]

5 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

When they sit players that could contribute to winning for load management, which happens all the time, then they are helping those guys at the expense of the team. 

That’s a completely similar concept to tanking. Great input. One is designed to improve your chances at winning the title, the other is designed to improve your chances to finish last

Edited February 19, 2021 by hobbes2702

[d2o 1603]

3 minutes ago, Machinator said:

You could argue that they're helping the team in the long run by preserving stars for the playoffs, but that has to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

Yep.    They are not doing it for the sake of the player.    They are trying to protect their investment in that player.

[Machinator 32103]

[Machinator 32103]

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by Machinator

[Machinator 32103]

[Mitch Cumsteen 18963]

10 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

That’s a completely similar concept to tanking. Great input. One is designed to improve your chances at winning the title, the other is designed to improve your chances to finish last

Really? Is that so? The whole idea of tanking is so you can get better players through the draft so you can... you know.... improve your chances at winning a title. Tanking is 100% designed to improve your chances at winning the title. Do you think there is some other motivation there? Are teams are purposefully losing to inflict psychological damage on their players and piss off their fans?

And don't get me wrong, I'm wholeheartedly opposed to tanking at both the player and team level. I think what the Sixers did and what they put their fans through was despicable. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with a team like Cleveland jettisoning veteran players, especially one on the last year of his contract, to give the younger guys more run so they can improve their skillset and be better set to compete in the future. They aren't winning shit with or without Andre Drummond this year and they were trying to move him to a better/winning situation. 

[Machinator 32103]

[d2o 1603]

3 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

Really? Is that so? The whole idea of tanking is so you can get better players through the draft so you can... you know.... improve your chances at winning a title. Tanking is 100% designed to improve your chances at winning the title. Do you think there is some other motivation there? Are teams are purposefully losing to inflict psychological damage on their players and piss off their fans?

And don't get me wrong, I'm wholeheartedly opposed to tanking at both the player and team level. I think what the Sixers did and what they put their fans through was despicable. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with a team like Cleveland jettisoning veteran players, especially one on the last year of his contract, to give the younger guys more run so they can improve their skillset and be better set to compete in the future. They aren't winning shit with or without Andre Drummond this year and they were trying to move him to a better/winning situation. 

That's actually fine to me too but either those shit teams should be clowned in the media or the players that ask to be traded from shit orgs should not.    That was the point Draymond was making.  

[Machinator 32103]

[d2o 1603]

I like Luka and what he is doing but Dame should be starting over him especially if it was indeed a tie between the two.

[hobbes2702 13469]

8 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

Really? Is that so? The whole idea of tanking is so you can get better players through the draft so you can... you know.... improve your chances at winning a title. Tanking is 100% designed to improve your chances at winning the title. Do you think there is some other motivation there? Are teams are purposefully losing to inflict psychological damage on their players and piss off their fans?

And don't get me wrong, I'm wholeheartedly opposed to tanking at both the player and team level. I think what the Sixers did and what they put their fans through was despicable. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with a team like Cleveland jettisoning veteran players, especially one on the last year of his contract, to give the younger guys more run so they can improve their skillset and be better set to compete in the future. They aren't winning shit with or without Andre Drummond this year and they were trying to move him to a better/winning situation. 

You really didn’t need to double down on it. They aren’t similar. 
 

What’s funny is I’m not opposed to tanking. I’m opposed to holding the players to higher standards than the organizations because, again, the players are the product. They are where the value in the league comes from.

[d2o 1603]

I hate tanking but its always been done.    What I hate is talking heads and consequently fans now acting like its a good course of action.       It generally doesn't work.

[ztejas 44228]

16 minutes ago, Machinator said:

It would be cool if they displayed the cutoff. Is it 6 each from frontcourt and backcourt?

[immortal13 4059]

56 minutes ago, Machinator said:

 

Fans got it right

[hobbes2702 13469]

16 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

Fans got it right

Yup

[ztejas 44228]

What the fuck has happened to Milwaukee? 

[MNLonghornFUKM 8981]

If you feel no empathy for players getting traded against their wishes then why are you upset when a player demands a trade? That is seriously dumb.

When Anthony Davis or James Harden demand to be traded and to only X city because they’re signing there regardless so May as well get something for them now basically gives small markets zero shot at anything if super teams are constantly formed because NBA superstars have never been told no.

When Blake or Andre get inevitably traded to X team in X city, they’re probably getting the best of both worlds.

[MNLonghornFUKM 8981]

Fans got it right

Everything but Caruso and klay starting

[SilasCoade 2622]

I don't understand the confusion about the difference between players and organizations. Just consider an analogous situation in any other industry. Your CEO says to make the best bidet on the market and you design something seriously shitty instead because you want them to agree to move the plant to your hometown. Are they going to try and accommodate you or are they going to fire you? Conversely, your CEO says, "Look, nice bidets that work really well require expensive hardware that really eats into the margin. We need you to design a bidet that looks exactly like a high quality item but uses super shitty materials so that our margins are better. Then in five years our version 2.0 bidet can have the real quality stuff because we have a cash reserve." But you insist on designing the Cadillac of bidets. Are they wrong for firing you for not following the strategic vision? Of course not, it's their company.

 

There is no fault in a player declaring a wish to be traded or bought out. I'm not sure I even fault them for holding out as long as they are okay forfeiting the pay. There is, however, fault in sabotaging the team until they meet your demands. Harden and Kawhi are pieces of shit. Full stop.

 

The players have a lot more leverage than they used to, which is generally good, IMO. But I refuse to buy into the notion that these multimillionaire overgrown children are not adequately compensated for the risk of having to uproot their lives and move on short notice.

 

[Mitch Cumsteen 18963]

3 hours ago, hobbes2702 said:

You really didn’t need to double down on it. They aren’t similar. 
 

What’s funny is I’m not opposed to tanking. I’m opposed to holding the players to higher standards than the organizations because, again, the players are the product. They are where the value in the league comes from.

You and I must consume the NBA in completely different ways. 

[ztejas 44228]

The Lakers just aren't very good without AD.

[Machinator 32103]

 

[MNLonghornFUKM 8981]

You and I must consume the NBA in completely different ways. 

Some are going to think the players should hold the leverage and some think the ones paying the players should. It’s also a different league/ fandom now a days vs just 25 years ago. There’s a lot more fans of just single players than teams themselves. Lebronstans could no longer give a shit about the heat or cavs. Hardenstans have no idea what houstons record is. Lebron just signs one year contracts so he’s untradeable. If AD, Harden ,Kawhi want to sign 1 year deals and the team wants to gamble with it, there’s no foul. If Paul George, who has 2 years left on his deal says trade me to the clippers, it fucks the franchise and their fans and possibly sets them back. OKC has 1000 first round picks the next 35 years now. I mean cool. But at least PG, AD and James got out when the going got tough and play with their buddies in big markets

[conVINCEd 21477]

2 hours ago, ztejas said:

What the fuck has happened to Milwaukee? 

Elite defense is a fickle thing.

[ztejas 44228]

Joe Harris is a bad motherfucker.

[shadow_operative 15932]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CLdcwS8Dpof/?igshid=1nez1812prpe8

"That's y'all best FT shooter?" 

-Kyrie, to the Lakers, after LeBron bricks the life out of a technical FT

aside from LeBron's sketchy Finals record, the fact that the man can't shoot FTs might be the most laughable part of people calling him the GOAT. 

[Pam Cummings 9868]

32 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CLdcwS8Dpof/?igshid=1nez1812prpe8

"That's y'all best FT shooter?" 

-Kyrie, to the Lakers, after LeBron bricks the life out of a technical FT

aside from LeBron's sketchy Finals record, the fact that the man can't shoot FTs might be the most laughable part of people calling him the GOAT. 

Right, we're supposed to believe the true goat was the most insanely psychotic human being ever about practicing, being prepared, and holding teammates accountable, while also simultaneously believing that he played golf, got drunk, and smoked cigars all day before playing in playoff games.

Edited February 19, 2021 by Pam Cummings

[Kermit 3162]

4 minutes ago, Pam Cummings said:

Right, we're supposed to believe the true goat was the most insanely psychotic human being ever about practicing, being prepared, and holding teammates accountable, while also simultaneously believing that he played golf, got drunk, and smoked cigars all day before playing in playoff games.

[Pam Cummings 9868]

9 minutes ago, Kermit said:

OK but how shitty was the NBA back then if half drunk guy was dominating it? What would a guy like KD have done against the big stiffs of that era? They couldnt guard him, he'd average 40.

Edited February 19, 2021 by Pam Cummings

[shadow_operative 15932]

LeBron sober can't hit a FT, an unguarded 15 foot shot that he has practiced literally hundreds of thousands of times, if not a million+ times, so...yes. yes, MJ and his whiskey and cigars and 4 am dice games are still the GOAT.

[Kermit 3162]

13 minutes ago, Pam Cummings said:

OK but how shitty was the NBA back then if half drunk guy was dominating it? What would a guy like KD have done against the big stiffs of that era? They couldnt guard him, he'd average 40.

He wouldn’t be able to guard them either. Imagine KD being forced to play defense on David Robinson, Dream, Ewing, Shaq, etc. Dude would foul out like Kevin Willis in the NBA Western Conference Playoffs. Games different. They’d probably call carrying and traveling, multiple 3 second violations, and moving screens too.

 

edit: Also, I’m not one of the hardliners who believe there’s a gap between the two. They’re both exceptional talents who excelled in their eras. If I had to rank them, they’re definitely 1a and 1b. 

Edited February 19, 2021 by Kermit

[Pam Cummings 9868]

17 minutes ago, Kermit said:

He wouldn’t be able to guard them either. Imagine KD being forced to play defense on David Robinson, Dream, Ewing, Shaq, etc. Dude would foul out like Kevin Willis in the NBA Western Conference Playoffs. Games different. They’d probably call carrying and traveling, multiple 3 second violations, and moving screens too.

 

edit: Also, I’m not one of the hardliners who believe there’s a gap between the two. They’re both exceptional talents who excelled in their eras. If I had to rank them, they’re definitely 1a and 1b. 

KD's defense is sort of underrated, i mean why couldn't he just guard the same people Pippen used to guard?

 

And you're right, the game has evolved. The players, overall, have better training from an earlier age, and are able to prolong their careers. If MJ played today he would play for longer no doubt. He also wouldn't get away with being such a dickhole because the gap between best player and the world and 10th best player in the world is a lot smaller than it used to be.

Edited February 19, 2021 by Pam Cummings

[MNLonghornFUKM 8981]

Lebrons ft shooting has always been cringe worthy. Obviously his shot isn’t fixable at this stage. You’d figure they’d send caruso up there

[Kermit 3162]

4 minutes ago, Pam Cummings said:

KD's defense is sort of underrated, i mean why couldn't he just guard the same people Pippen used to guard?

Because his team would rely on him not exerting that level of energy on the defensive end? Plus, the way that nineties defense worked, they’d have him in a primary shot blockers role. Everything got funneled to the paint. 

[Pam Cummings 9868]

5 minutes ago, Kermit said:

Because his team would rely on him not exerting that level of energy on the defensive end? Plus, the way that nineties defense worked, they’d have him in a primary shot blockers role. Everything got funneled to the paint. 

You gotta be a 2 way player to be the best though. I know that this would blow 90s NBA minds to even suggest in those days but KD with another good wing defender and a good big man? Would be sick.

 

Of course i realize that with no Jordan there is no KD and no LeBron. He inspired all these dudes today just like Tiger in golf. That's the true legacy, not any sort of rings or accolades. If i was MJ, i would look around at the league and be pretty proud of that.

Edited February 19, 2021 by Pam Cummings

[Kermit 3162]

8 minutes ago, Pam Cummings said:

You gotta be a 2 way player to be the best though. I know that this would blow 90s NBA minds to even suggest in those days but KD with another good wing defender and a good big man? Would be sick.

 

Of course i realize that with no Jordan there is no KD and no LeBron. He inspired all these dudes today just like Tiger in golf. That's the true legacy, not any sort of rings or accolades. If i was MJ, i would look around at the league and be pretty proud of that.

I always see KD’s game as an evolution of George Gervin. Both incredible scorers, same body type and fluidity, and creativity on the offensive end. Obviously, KD is turbocharged.

[d2o 1603]

49 minutes ago, Pam Cummings said:

KD's defense is sort of underrated, i mean why couldn't he just guard the same people Pippen used to guard?

 

And you're right, the game has evolved. The players, overall, have better training from an earlier age, and are able to prolong their careers. If MJ played today he would play for longer no doubt. He also wouldn't get away with being such a dickhole because the gap between best player and the world and 10th best player in the world is a lot smaller than it used to be.

Pippen didn't guard Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem, etc.   They had other actual bigs on the floor to guard them

[ztejas 44228]

2 hours ago, Pam Cummings said:

Right, we're supposed to believe the true goat was the most insanely psychotic human being ever about practicing, being prepared, and holding teammates accountable, while also simultaneously believing that he played golf, got drunk, and smoked cigars all day before playing in playoff games.

Jordan did not play in playoff games drunk. What the fuck are you talking about? I don't even think he really started partying until well into their first 3 peat - maybe later.

And as for the era argument - any true great would be great in any era. The only exceptions might be guys from WAY back - like pre 60s - or 3 point shooters pre 3 point line. KD would have been KD in the 90s - just like prime MJ would be a problem in 2020. 

Edited February 19, 2021 by ztejas

[d2o 1603]

44 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Jordan did not play in playoff games drunk. What the fuck are you talking about? I don't even think he really started partying until well into their first 3 peat - maybe later.

And as for the era argument - any true great would be great in any era. The only exceptions might be guys from WAY back - like pre 60s - or 3 point shooters pre 3 point line. KD would have been KD in the 90s - just like prime MJ would be a problem in 2020. 

Yeah I highly doubt this was the first time.    Just the first time he was too big for it to be hidden.

 

https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1993-05-27-1993147135-story.html

[ztejas 44228]

7 minutes ago, d2o said:

Yeah I highly doubt this was the first time.    Just the first time he was too big for it to be hidden.

 

https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1993-05-27-1993147135-story.html

I mean, that would line up with the timeline I gave. And gambling doesn't necessarily equal drinking.

Either way he was still dominating. I think it's less of an indictment on the era and more of an example of how good he was. 

[shadow_operative 15932]

11 minutes ago, ztejas said:

I mean, that would line up with the timeline I gave. And gambling doesn't necessarily equal drinking.

Either way he was still dominating. I think it's less of an indictment on the era and more of an example of how good he was. 

period. he was doing that shit as hard as he possibly could in Monte Carlo (36 holes a day and then gambling until 4 am, drinking and smoking cigars the entire time) and he was still the most bright eyes and bushy tailed dude at 8am practice, not to mention still the best player on the court among the freaking Dream Team, even after all that. MJ was seriously different. 

Edited February 19, 2021 by shadow_operative