2020-2021 NBA Thread of Insanity

[conVINCEd 21468]

5 minutes ago, d2o said:

 

I was going to post this.  He was playing on one leg in the Finals and did that.  Tip of the hat for that performance, that being said, Fuck Isiah Thomas.

[Kermit 3128]

Isiah Thomas can go to hell, but goddamn he was one of the fiercest competitors I’ve ever seen. He came up big in the very moments that Chris Paul seems to shrink from (except for that one time, goddamnit).

[HtownHorn 14486]

The Washington Westbrooks are going to knock either Miami or Charlotte out of the playoffs.

[Machinator 32097]

 

[HookEm 2444]

Chris Paul would have fit in nicely with those Bad Boy Pistons teams. Swap him with IT and I’m not sure they get worse. But I don’t think IT would have elevated some of the teams Chris Paul has played on to the degree that CP3 has.

That said I don’t like either of them at all.

[shadow_operative 15932]

the Bad Boy Pistons have zero titles if they replace Zeke with CP3. 

[Underdog 28455]

13 hours ago, d2o said:

 

His '84 PO game performance against the Knicks is pretty legendary, something like 14pts or so in about 90 seconds.  

Bit OT but how fucking good was Bernard King and how much better would he have been if not for his knee injuries? 

Edited April 22, 2021 by Underdog

[d2o 1602]

7 hours ago, HookEm said:

Chris Paul would have fit in nicely with those Bad Boy Pistons teams. Swap him with IT and I’m not sure they get worse. But I don’t think IT would have elevated some of the teams Chris Paul has played on to the degree that CP3 has.

That said I don’t like either of them at all.

Cmon man

 

7 minutes ago, Underdog said:

His '84 PO game performance against the Knicks is pretty legendary, something like 14pts or so in about 90 seconds.  

Yup

 

 

[d2o 1602]

 

[d2o 1602]

26 minutes ago, Underdog said:

His '84 PO game performance against the Knicks is pretty legendary, something like 14pts or so in about 90 seconds.  

Bit OT but how fucking good was Bernard King and how much better would he have been if not for his knee injuries? 

King was a fucking BEAST!!   He avg'd like 44 in that series.  Just destroyed the Pistons.

[HookEm 2444]

The best Isiah Thomas ever finished was 5th in the MVP voting (once), plus a couple of 8th place finishes.  Never sniffed an all-defensive squad.

Chris Paul finished 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th (twice), 7th (twice) in MVP voting.  He is also a 7-time 1st team All-Defense player.  He has never come close to playing on a team like the Bad Boys.  Prime CP3 on that team would fit like hand in glove.

Chris Paul + Joe Dumars would be a nasty af defensive combo. Plus Adrian Dantley, Mark Aguire, Dennis Rodman!, Bill Laimbeer, Rick Mahorn, John Sally.  "Winning" is a lot easier metric when you are on a team like that.

CP3 is better at just about every facet of the game than Isiah.  Vastly better defender, better shooter, more careful with the ball, comparable distributor. 

Prime CP3

• 22.2 ppg
• 11.0 apg
• 5.5 rpg
• 2.8 spg
• 3.0 TOs
• 52.8 eFG%

Isiah Thomas Championship years:

• 18.3 ppg
• 8.9 apg
• 3.6 rpg
• 1.7 spg
• 3.9 TOs
• 46.5 eFG%

[HookEm 2444]

As an aside, Matt Coleman reminds me a little of Isiah Thomas.  Always out there smiling, but inside he is ready to cut you.

[d2o 1602]

5 minutes ago, HookEm said:

The best Isiah Thomas ever finished was 5th in the MVP voting (once), plus a couple of 8th place finishes.  Never sniffed an all-defensive squad.

Chris Paul finished 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th (twice), 7th (twice) in MVP voting.  He is also a 7-time 1st team All-Defense player.  He has never come close to playing on a team like the Bad Boys.  Prime CP3 on that team would fit like hand in glove.

Chris Paul + Joe Dumars would be a nasty af defensive combo. Plus Adrian Dantley, Mark Aguire, Dennis Rodman!, Bill Laimbeer, Rick Mahorn, John Sally.  "Winning" is a lot easier metric when you are on a team like that.

CP3 is better at just about every facet of the game than Isiah.  Vastly better defender, better shooter, more careful with the ball, comparable distributor. 

Prime CP3

• 22.2 ppg
• 11.0 apg
• 5.5 rpg
• 2.8 spg
• 3.0 TOs
• 52.8 eFG%

Isiah Thomas Championship years:

• 18.3 ppg
• 8.9 apg
• 3.6 rpg
• 1.7 spg
• 3.9 TOs
• 46.5 eFG%

Nitpicking:  AD and Aguirre never played together as they were traded for each other.   

Isiah was a Finals MVP! 

He played in a far more physical time and always was there unlike Paul who has consistently broken down over the course of a season.   And when he was needed the most he stepped up big time as shown in a few of the clips.   Note all of them were playoff performances.

Again, all I can say is you never actually watched Isiah play if you think CP3 is better than him in any one way let alone "every facet of the game".   

[HookEm 2444]

Dating myself, but I watched Isiah plenty. I’ll give you the durability. I just think Isiah gets the title reputation bump. I guess that is fair.

Prime Allen Iverson deserves mention here as well.

[d2o 1602]

16 minutes ago, HookEm said:

Dating myself, but I watched Isiah plenty. I’ll give you the durability. I just think Isiah gets the title reputation bump. I guess that is fair.

Prime Allen Iverson deserves mention here as well.

He gets the title rep bump cause he earned it!  He was the best player on a back to back (should've been a three-peat, but that's a different story) champ in what is considered the most competitive time in league history.    He beat MJ (multiple times), Magic and Bird.   No other player led a team that did that.

Edited April 22, 2021 by d2o

[Patrick Bateman 3903]

Isiah Thomas is all-time great, but Chris Paul is the superior player in almost every way.  As I stated earlier, Thomas had some great performances (notably his 25 point quarter in a losing cause) in some big moments, but frankly, this isn't razor thin close or anything.  Let's look at the career advanced:

Rk	Player	From	To	G	MP	PER	TS%	3PAr	FTr	ORB%	DRB%	TRB%	AST%	STL%	BLK%	TOV%	USG%		OWS	DWS	WS	WS/48		OBPM	DBPM	BPM	VORP
1	Chris Paul	2006	2021	1077	37358	24.9	.582	.267	.342	2.1	12.8	7.5	45.3	3.2	0.3	13.2	23.9		137.5	50.2	187.8	.241		5.2	2.2	7.4	88.8
2	Isiah Thomas*	1982	1994	979	35516	18.1	.516	.086	.334	2.9	7.8	5.3	37.4	2.5	0.4	16.8	25.3		41.2	39.5	80.7	.109		2.4	0.2	2.6	41.6

Uhm..... look at that ws/48 or VORP or BPM.  My lord.  Paul's AST% and even STL% is superior.  TOV% is better.  Also Paul has been elected to 9 (yes 9) All NBA Defensive Teams, 7 of them were first team.  That's crazy.  Thomas?  zero.  How about how he stacked up vs the league in their primes?  MVP shares?  Paul has been in the top 5 of the MVP race 4 times, coming in 2, 3, 4, and 5th.  He's been in the top 10 8 times.  Thomas?  He came in 5th one time and made the top 10 4 times, often in the back end of the 10.  

What does Thomas do better?  Win, someone said.  Winning is largely a team accomplishment.  Tell me a roster Paul's had that looked good vs IT's Bad Boy roster where you have a minimum of 4 HOFs.... besides Thomas.  The real MVP of the Pistons is Jack McCloskey (and yes with a big assist from Chuck) in acquiring so many good players, including Thomas.  But here's a nice stat about winning.

IT's career winning percentage is 57.9%. Paul's???  As of last month, 63.6%.  And Fuck Derek Fisher!!!! 

Quote

 But Paul has won 63.6 percent of all of his games and Tony Parker, Derek Fisher and Dennis Johnson are the only other point guards to have played at least 1,000 games. And they all had the luck of playing for model franchises such as the Spurs, Lakers and Celtics and lining up alongside Hall of Famers. Paul’s winning percentage is better than other playmaking legends like John Stockton and Steve Nash.

How about clutch time?  Playoffs?  

Rk	Player	From	To	G	MP	PER	TS	3PAr	FTr	ORB%	DRB%	TRB%	AST%	STL%	BLK%	TOV%	USG%		OWS	DWS	WS	WS/48		OBPM	DBPM	BPM	VORP
1	Chris Paul	2008	2020	109	4061	24.2	.581	.294	.292	2.4	13.7	8.1	40.5	3.0	0.5	13.1	25.6		12.5	4.0	16.5	.195		5.4	2.0	7.4	9.7
2	Isiah Thomas*	1984	1992	111	4216	19.8	.520	.125	.369	3.6	10.6	7.1	37.4	2.9	0.6	14.5	26.2		5.5	7.1	12.5	.143		3.9	2.0	6.0	8.5

Thomas gets better and that's laudable but again, Paul is the better player.  You put CP3 on the Bad Boy teams and they have no issues (at least on the court) getting to and winning titles.  Fuck, maybe Paul doesn't make an all-time boneheaded play and give the Celtics the series with a lazy and stupid inbounds pass vs Boston when the Pistons had them dead to rights and makes another Championship.  Someone wrote, Thomas is over rated yet under rated and I kind of agree.  There's no doubt he sacrificed some individual numbers to win with a pimped out roster.  Thomas from memory seemed pretty clutch in the Lakers series (they lost) and the Blazers series (they won a title).  Against Michael's Bulls?  Not so much.  Go look at the playoff stats.  

There is a case for Thomas and it would revolve around injuries (Paul has seemed to be break down at bad moments in the season) and chemistry (Paul wins like almost no other but also seems like a dick) as the Clippers and Rockets other "stars" (Blake Griffin being a star is laughable in context) got tired of playing with him.  But, on the floor, if you had a series you wanted to win..... Paul's the guy.

I'm sure this will piss off some people and that's cool.  Have at it.

[d2o 1602]

The only thing I agree with in that entire post is "Fuck Derek Fisher".   Nothing can unite like that.

[d2o 1602]

I totally respect PB and the depth of stats he offers but I'm not sure how you can say "in a playoff series that you need to win Paul is the guy" when he has not won the series that his teams needed to win while Isiah did.   Multiple times.   Sometimes its more than the numbers.

Edited April 22, 2021 by d2o

[Patrick Bateman 3903]

52 minutes ago, d2o said:

I totally respect PB and the depth of stats he offers but I'm not sure how you can say "in a playoff series that you need to win Paul is the guy" when he has not won the series that his teams needed to win while Isiah did.   Multiple times.   Sometimes its more than the numbers.

Agreed.  It’s mostly the teammates.  Paul has played with almost no HOFers in their prime except for Harden and they were probably a game away.

[Vic Mackey 46936]

[hobbes2702 12824]

1 hour ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Agreed.  It’s mostly the teammates.  Paul has played with almost no HOFers in their prime except for Harden and they were probably a game away.

Blake will 100% be in the HOF.

That said I’ll take CP3 over IT all day. 

Edited April 22, 2021 by hobbes2702

[Patrick Bateman 3903]

10 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Blake will 100% be in the HOF

Probably because of his college career but if it's just pro stats, he'd be right on the edge.  I guess it depends on how you think of guys like LMA or Peja for current guys.  LMA had a little better career in the pros, Peja slightly not as good.  Chris Webber maybe a similar comp in the pros.  Webber's college career pushes him over the edge easily.  Blake didn't have quite the pro or college career but close.

Basketball HOF is the easiest to get into because of the totality of careers.  Blake was probably a top 10ish player once in his career, when the beautiful game Spurs won.  So I'll stand corrected on the 13-14' season.  Blake went downhill pretty quickly.

Edited April 22, 2021 by Patrick Bateman

[Baboontyme 2808]

I can't agree with saying Chris Paul is superior in almost every way. Statistically maybe but I don't know what that means. In 10 years someone will probably pull James Harden's advanced stats and someone can say that Harden is superior in almost every way to Michael. We know that's not the case. Winning does count, and you can't simply disqualify that by pointing to one having superior teammates. The teammates argument is subjective, as well. Would Joe D be in the HOF if it weren't for him building the '05 Pistons from scratch? Rodman was a baby, literally (mentally) when he played in Detroit. Aguirre was old. Laimbeer was an AS early in his career, but not a HOFer. The microwave? Buddha? Mahorn? These guys were role players. 

What was Zeke better at than Chris Paul. As has been mentioned, handles. Quicks. I would also argue that Isiah was a better natural athlete than CP3 is. Zeke had crazy hops and was quicker than a flea. With modern day strength training advances it is likely that that difference would show even more if they played in the same era. It's almost impossible to compare statistically because of era. If Zeke needed to score 30 a night for those teams to win he would have done that. You just can't quantify it. 

Isiah was a leader from day 1. When Knight handed him the keys to the team in college, he led them to a NCAA title. When he got to the NBA, Isiah learned the hard way what it took to reach that level from Larry and Magic. MJ gleaned a lot of that from Isiah and those teams. He admits as much. Without Isiah there is no Bulls dynasty. Chris Paul is riding a banana boat with the competition in the offseason. Different eras, and the comparison is fun, but I can't just let someone state matter of factly that Chris Paul is "superior in almost every way". Yeah I guess if you look at the game on paper and not how it's played. 

 

[hobbes2702 12824]

3 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Probably because of his college career but if it's just pro stats, he'd be right on the edge.  I guess it depends on how you think of guys like LMA or Peja for current guys.  LMA had a little better career in the pros, Peja slightly not as good.  Chris Webber maybe a similar comp in the pros.  Webber's college career pushes him over the edge easily.  Blake didn't have quite the pro or college career but close.

Basketball HOF is the easiest to get into because of the totality of careers.

100%. I wish they would separate the HOF into college and pro instead of just basketball 

[HookEm 2444]

Now that I think about the durability argument for CP3 vs. Isiah, I'm don't think it actually favors Isiah.

Isiah retired at 32 yrs old after a torn Achilles and yet CP3 is still cranking out an all-NBA worthy season at 35 and has only missed 1 game this year while logging decent minutes.  It is possible that CP3 will still be playing at an elite level for 3-4 more years.

Let's look at games played by age range:

• 20-23: CP3 300 vs. Isiah 316
• 24-28:  CP3 317 vs. Isiah 400
• 29-32:  CP3 275  vs. Isiah 263 
• 32+:  CP3 185 vs. Isiah 0

[HookEm 2444]

Regarding wins & titles, would Zeke have won a title with any of CP3s teams? I don't think so. His best shot shot was probably with 2018 Houston. Zeke would have been worse than CP3 on that team. They desperately needed CP3s defense.  OK I'm done defending him. I have honestly never been a fan, lol.

Blake vs. Webber is an interesting argument.  Blake has the dunk contest. Webber has the Fab 5.

Peak Season - I think this favors Webber pretty strongly. 

• Blake 2014 - 24.1 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 3.9 apg, 1.2 spg, 0.6 bpg, 0.533 eFG%, 4.7 VORP, 12.2 WS, 23.9 PER - 3rd MVP voting, 2nd Team All-NBA
• Webber 2001 - 27.1 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 4.2 apg, 1.3 spg, 1.7 bpg, 0.481 eFG%, 5.3 VORP, 11.0 WS, 24.7 PER - 4th MVP voting, 1st Team All-NBA

Career - Pretty even. Both under-achieved to a degree. Webber especially should have been an all-time great.

• Blake - 11 yrs - 3 Teams - 0 1st Team, 3 2nd Team, 2 3rd Team, 6-time All-Star, ROY, 51.3 HoF%, #97 Career VORP, #43 Carer PER
• Webber - 15 yrs - 5 Teams - 1 1st Team, 3 2nd Team, 1 3rd Team, 5-time All-Star, ROY, 14.6 HoF%, #48 Career VORP, #58 Career PER 

[Patrick Bateman 3903]

35 minutes ago, Baboontyme said:

I can't agree with saying Chris Paul is superior in almost every way. Statistically maybe but I don't know what that means. In 10 years someone will probably pull James Harden's advanced stats and someone can say that Harden is superior in almost every way to Michael. We know that's not the case. Winning does count, and you can't simply disqualify that by pointing to one having superior teammates. The teammates argument is subjective, as well. Would Joe D be in the HOF if it weren't for him building the '05 Pistons from scratch? Rodman was a baby, literally (mentally) when he played in Detroit. Aguirre was old. Laimbeer was an AS early in his career, but not a HOFer. The microwave? Buddha? Mahorn? These guys were role players. 

What was Zeke better at than Chris Paul. As has been mentioned, handles. Quicks. I would also argue that Isiah was a better natural athlete than CP3 is. Zeke had crazy hops and was quicker than a flea. With modern day strength training advances it is likely that that difference would show even more if they played in the same era. It's almost impossible to compare statistically because of era. If Zeke needed to score 30 a night for those teams to win he would have done that. You just can't quantify it. 

Isiah was a leader from day 1. When Knight handed him the keys to the team in college, he led them to a NCAA title. When he got to the NBA, Isiah learned the hard way what it took to reach that level from Larry and Magic. MJ gleaned a lot of that from Isiah and those teams. He admits as much. Without Isiah there is no Bulls dynasty. Chris Paul is riding a banana boat with the competition in the offseason. Different eras, and the comparison is fun, but I can't just let someone state matter of factly that Chris Paul is "superior in almost every way". Yeah I guess if you look at the game on paper and not how it's played. 

 

So, just a few things here to clean up and I appreciate your post.  

1.  Joe Dumars.  IMO, Dumars is a low level HOF.  Finals MVP.  6 time All-star.  5 times All NBA Defensive team (4 times first team).  All Rookie Team.  3 Times All-NBA Teams.  Puts him on par or certainly in the neighborhood of Blake Griffin, who was rightly pointed out probably ticketed for the HOF, probably tightly.  His Executive tenure simply made him an easy pick.

2.  Laimbeer was still pretty great when the Pistons were challenging for titles.  He actually had similar if not better analytics than Thomas in several of those seasons.  The first title run, Laimbeer led the Pistons in VORP, Win Shares, and BPM over Thomas.  An effective leader, if not a dirty one, and sort of ahead of his time, a big man who could pick and pop along with being an outstanding rebounder.  Laimbeer is a HOF, IMO.  Rodman was defensive player of the year during the 2nd ship run.  Dantley was still the Pistons best offensive player in their first couple of runs and Aguirre was good during the first run.  Dantley is in the HOF.  Aguirre will eventually get there.  Again, HOF in basketball is a bit easier than other sports.  Anyone think DeAndre Jordan is gonna make it?

3.  No one is dismissing winning, but winning titles is often a function of your teammates, to dismiss their contribution is folly.  Michael Jordan ain't winning any titles without Pippen and Grant.  And later Rodman.  Lebron isn't winning without Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love, and Davis.  However, winning is important and Thomas is given his due, but folks simply don't understand how much of an influence CP3 has on his team's winning percentage.  Even last year, when OKC was absolutely tanking, they made the playoffs with a bunch of nobodies, largely because of CP3.  Not sure Steven Adams and Gallo get it done last year.  Look what he's doing in Phoenix this year.  72.4% winning percentage.  Last year they were 46.6% 

3.  IT > CP3.  Quicks.  Uhm, can you prove this?  Can you show it other than in your mind?  Hops.  I can find a 10 minute reel of CP3 dunking, often over guys, but can't find much of Zeke.  Zeke was a tremendous athlete and had a flair to his game, but you saying he's a better athlete is simply an opinion without much support.

The rest is basically you saying you have more rosy retrospection than me in regards to IT.  And I'm not going to argue the point.  I think you hit on one important point and it comes up in many of these comparisons and that's cross-era comparison and specifically how the 3 point line it's importance has changed the geometry of the game.  Nothing we can do about that really.  Paul has consistently been a very efficient shooter and 3 point shooter, although not prolific (not Steph).  But even though Paul is the better shooter (TS%, eFG%, FG% Paul all leads by healthy margins), adjusted by league (so by era).

			Player Shooting %									League Shooting %									League-Adjusted
Rk	Player	From	To	G	MP		FG	2P	3P	eFG	FT	TS	FTr	3PAr		FG	2P	3P	eFG	FT	TS	FTr	3PAr		FG+	2P+	3P+	eFG+	FT+	TS+	FTr+	3PAr+		FG Add	TS Add
1	Chris Paul	2006	2021	1077	37358		.471	.508	.370	.521	.872	.582	.342	.267		.456	.492	.358	.504	.759	.544	.286	.268		103	103	103	103	115	107	119	98		482.0	1284.7
2	Isiah Thomas	1982	1994	979	35516		.452	.468	.290	.465	.759	.516	.334	.086		.481	.492	.305	.491	.757	.537	.326	.058		94	95	96	95	100	96	102	169		-816.4	-771.5

My point isn't to disparage Thomas.  My first sentence calls him an all-time great.  It's basically folks don't respect or are aware of how fucking good CP3 is.  He's that fucking great.  And, FTR, I hate the dude.  He's a dick, plays dirty at times (hey, John Stockton), is a pest, and unlikeable.  Doesn't mean I can't appreciate his greatness though.  In a lot of ways, he's similar to a modern day John Stockton in how they're often overlooked.

[d2o 1602]

 

 

1 hour ago, HookEm said:

Now that I think about the durability argument for CP3 vs. Isiah, I'm don't think it actually favors Isiah.

Isiah retired at 32 yrs old after a torn Achilles and yet CP3 is still cranking out an all-NBA worthy season at 35 and has only missed 1 game this year while logging decent minutes.  It is possible that CP3 will still be playing at an elite level for 3-4 more years.

Let's look at games played by age range:

• 20-23: CP3 300 vs. Isiah 316
• 24-28:  CP3 317 vs. Isiah 400
• 29-32:  CP3 275  vs. Isiah 263 
• 32+:  CP3 185 vs. Isiah 0

In 1992 an Achilles tear was almost certainly a career ender.   If Isiah played with today's medical advancements he prolly comes back and plays longer.    Cmon man.  Context

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

@d2o how old are you?  I’m 42 and I barely remember watching IT and what I do remember is only at the end with him winning titles and then getting swept by MJ. 

[d2o 1602]

8 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

@d2o how old are you?  I’m 42 and I barely remember watching IT and what I do remember is only at the end with him winning titles and then getting swept by MJ. 

50, and from Detroit.   I watched Zeke from the day he was drafted and putting up big  numbers in the lean times all the way through the titles.

[DonkeyCigars 144]

Has anyone been following this "OVERTIME" league backed by Bezos and prominent VC's which is essentially a league to pay 16-18 year olds to play basketball? Super curious to see this take off and just another example of NBA and basketball in general on the cutting edge of innovation and disruption (e.g. NFT's, digital, eCommerce, and now this) whereas the NFL's idea of innovation is allowing players to wear different numbers on their jerseys lol

Edit to add link: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/22/jeff-bezos-drake-and-more-invest-80-million-in-sports-media-company-overtime.html?utm_source=morning_brew

Edited April 23, 2021 by DonkeyCigars

[d2o 1602]

6 minutes ago, DonkeyCigars said:

Has anyone been following this "OVERTIME" league backed by Bezos and prominent VC's which is essentially a league to pay 16-18 year olds to play basketball? Super curious to see this take off and just another example of NBA and basketball in general on the cutting edge of innovation and disruption (e.g. NFT's, digital, eCommerce, and now this) whereas the NFL's idea of innovation is allowing players to wear different numbers on their jerseys lol

Edit to add link: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/22/jeff-bezos-drake-and-more-invest-80-million-in-sports-media-company-overtime.html?utm_source=morning_brew

Its interesting and obviously this has been going on for decades overseas.  It has financial backing but I don't know how they will make money.    In those overseas leagues kids are playing but the leagues are adult leagues.    I don't know how much interest in watching all HS aged kids (that they dont have an actual connection to) play there is especially if they are not going to college.   I may be wrong but I think that the current interest in HS kids is based on college fan bases hoping to see them come to their school.

[HtownHorn 14486]

4 hours ago, d2o said:

Its interesting and obviously this has been going on for decades overseas.  It has financial backing but I don't know how they will make money.    In those overseas leagues kids are playing but the leagues are adult leagues.    I don't know how much interest in watching all HS aged kids (that they dont have an actual connection to) play there is especially if they are not going to college.   I may be wrong but I think that the current interest in HS kids is based on college fan bases hoping to see them come to their school.

I guess we will see. The WNBA still exists. I agree with you though, I don't see a viable market for shitty men's basketball.

[Vic Mackey 46936]

...

[Brothahorn 10085]

16 hours ago, HtownHorn said:

I guess we will see. The WNBA still exists. I agree with you though, I don't see a viable market for shitty men's basketball.

Only through the investment and charity of the NBA. 

[Mitch Cumsteen 18523]

I'm calling my shot here - Curry is going to win MVP. He went for 31 last night with 25 of them in the second half and he sat out most of the fourth quarter. Jokic and Embiid are both deserving, but what he's doing on a nightly basis is unprecedented. I think the nuggets injuries are going to start to show up in the loss column and it's going to let him slip in. 

[HtownHorn 14486]

1 hour ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

I'm calling my shot here - Curry is going to win MVP. He went for 31 last night with 25 of them in the second half and he sat out most of the fourth quarter. Jokic and Embiid are both deserving, but what he's doing on a nightly basis is unprecedented. I think the nuggets injuries are going to start to show up in the loss column and it's going to let him slip in. 

James Harden has done this 10 times already.

[Wulaw Horn 18980]

1 hour ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

I'm calling my shot here - Curry is going to win MVP. He went for 31 last night with 25 of them in the second half and he sat out most of the fourth quarter. Jokic and Embiid are both deserving, but what he's doing on a nightly basis is unprecedented. I think the nuggets injuries are going to start to show up in the loss column and it's going to let him slip in. 

Yeah man Harden scores 30 plus and averaged 40 over like a 35 game stretch 2 years ago, on a team that finished tied for the 3 seed a couple years back and he finished a distant 2nd or 3rd to Giannis. 
that’s not to say Curry won’t win, just that this isn’t unprecedented. 
his true shooting percentage was something like 63% and that had lots of assists and rebounds too. Harden is much less popular than Steph and nobody else has the narrative other than Joker so you might be right. 
 

[d2o 1602]

43 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

I'm calling my shot here - Curry is going to win MVP. He went for 31 last night with 25 of them in the second half and he sat out most of the fourth quarter. Jokic and Embiid are both deserving, but what he's doing on a nightly basis is unprecedented. I think the nuggets injuries are going to start to show up in the loss column and it's going to let him slip in. 

He's a more efficient but Kobe avg'd 35 in 05-06 with crazy games throughout the season.   Pretty much the same kinda where the Lakers finished in the bottom half of the playoff run.   

Jokic is top 10 in the league in pts/rebs/asts.    I know neither him nor Embiid feel like "that guy" but both are more deserving than Curry this yr.

[hobbes2702 12824]

4 hours ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

I'm calling my shot here - Curry is going to win MVP. He went for 31 last night with 25 of them in the second half and he sat out most of the fourth quarter. Jokic and Embiid are both deserving, but what he's doing on a nightly basis is unprecedented. I think the nuggets injuries are going to start to show up in the loss column and it's going to let him slip in. 

And his team is .500. Joker should be the MVP hands down at this point.

[shadow_operative 15932]

i'm getting pretty sick of hearing people describe Jokic as "maybe the best passing bug man in the game" and shit like that. he is easily the best passer in the game today, regardless of position, and the only questions about his passing are "how tf did he do that?" and "is he the best passer to ever play basketball?". a lot of guys get assists, and a few guys can really drop some amazing dimes; Jokic makes passes that, unless someone from the 50's was doing them and nobody caught it on film, we've never seen anyone make before. i don't know if it's unprecedented or not, but i've never seen a team run its offense through a 7-foot point/center quite like Denver foes with Jokic. Jokic is changing the game before our eyes.

[Patrick Bateman 3903]

I think the MVP is Jokic's to lose.  There's Giannis fatigue (for good reason).  Embiid is good but he's not Joker.  I'll say it ends up this way.

1.  Jokic

2.  Embiid

3.  Curry

4.  Giannis

5.  Harden?  (Being hurt really kills any chance).  Maybe Julius Randle actually.  Don't sleep.

 

 

[Braff Zacklin 13418]

9 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

i'm getting pretty sick of hearing people describe Jokic as "maybe the best passing bug man in the game" and shit like that. he is easily the best passer in the game today, regardless of position, and the only questions about his passing are "how tf did he do that?" and "is he the best passer to ever play basketball?". a lot of guys get assists, and a few guys can really drop some amazing dimes; Jokic makes passes that, unless someone from the 50's was doing them and nobody caught it on film, we've never seen anyone make before. i don't know if it's unprecedented or not, but i've never seen a team run its offense through a 7-foot point/center quite like Denver foes with Jokic. Jokic is changing the game before our eyes.

Also currently has the best PER (31.13) in the league.

On an unrelated note (to the MVP "race"): I mentioned Michael Porter Jr. in the Jokic thread and will do so here, as well. In just his second season, Porter has established himself as a solid No.3. He's averaging nearly 18 points a game and is deadly from deep (43.4 percent). His scoring keeps rising and will probably continue to do so now that Murray is out for the year.

Back to Jokic: I didn't pick up on him or the Nugs until they bested the Spurs in the playoffs two years ago. Been watching them as much as possible since. His defense is borderline Hardenesque, but like Harden, he does so much on the other end of the floor that it's absolutely mesmerizing to watch.

[CBT 1281]

Suns-Nets is good. Suns play so well as a team on O and D. The Nets have KD and Kyrie. /fin

[Mitch Cumsteen 18523]

On 4/24/2021 at 9:33 AM, HtownHorn said:

James Harden has done this 10 times already.

 

On 4/24/2021 at 10:12 AM, Wulaw Horn said:

Yeah man Harden scores 30 plus and averaged 40 over like a 35 game stretch 2 years ago, on a team that finished tied for the 3 seed a couple years back and he finished a distant 2nd or 3rd to Giannis. 
that’s not to say Curry won’t win, just that this isn’t unprecedented. 
his true shooting percentage was something like 63% and that had lots of assists and rebounds too. Harden is much less popular than Steph and nobody else has the narrative other than Joker so you might be right. 
 

I'm not just talking about the points, I'm talking about the way Curry's doing it. His range is warping the game. Teams are sending double teams at him 30 feet away from the basket. That team he's on is about a 15 win (in a full 82 game season) team without him. We have never seen anybody shoot the ball like he does in the history of basketball. This is from last night. He's doing shit like this every night. It's ridiculous. 

 

[Machinator 32097]

 

[HtownHorn 14486]

2 hours ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

 

I'm not just talking about the points, I'm talking about the way Curry's doing it. His range is warping the game. Teams are sending double teams at him 30 feet away from the basket. That team he's on is about a 15 win (in a full 82 game season) team without him. We have never seen anybody shoot the ball like he does in the history of basketball. This is from last night. He's doing shit like this every night. It's ridiculous. 

 

It is ok to admit you have never seen Harden play, because with the Rockets he was routinely double teamed as soon as he cross midcourt. This isn't something new to Curry. Even without Klay, Curry is still surrounded by more talent than Harden was with the Rockets save for the 2 years with Paul.

[shadow_operative 15932]

no, @Mitch Cumsteen is right. if you go back and read the old shaggy threads, i was the main guy pumping up Harden not only from his OKC days, but also a huge advocate for him (and Kawhi) to be named MVP over Russ. i'm sure plenty here will remember that without having to check. i've been watching and supporting Harden just as much as any of you, and what Steph is doing right now has never been done before. nobody who's actually been watching Steph play recently can say otherwise. hell even Steve Kerr said that MJ and LeBron have never quite had stretches like this. it's not about the numbers, it's about how he's getting them, and how easy he's making it look. it's never been done before. period. end of story. this run that Steph is on is just...i don't even have the words for it. you have to actually watch him play though if you want to know what I (and Mitch, and Kerr, and NBA people everywhere) are talking about. 

[Braff Zacklin 13418]

Steph is also getting to the rim a lot more than I recall. He's not merely subsisting on screens and cuts; he's having to do a great deal of it on his own.

I've always been a bit down on him--probably unfairly so--but he's doing things this year that even someone like me can't dismiss.

[Mitch Cumsteen 18523]

51 minutes ago, HtownHorn said:

It is ok to admit you have never seen Harden play, because with the Rockets he was routinely double teamed as soon as he cross midcourt. This isn't something new to Curry. Even without Klay, Curry is still surrounded by more talent than Harden was with the Rockets save for the 2 years with Paul.

I've seen Harden plenty -- pounding away to either try a step back three or getting a pick and going downhill and then forcing contact at the rack for his endless parade to the free throw line, or kicking to an open three.  That ain't how Curry is doing it, at all. If you can't tell the difference, then I don't know what to tell you. It's one thing to double team a guy to take the ball out of his hands. It's another having to faceguard some dude 40 feet from the basket because his range is so absurd. And the talent around Harden wasn't always great shakes, but they at least surrounded him with a ton of dudes who could knock down an open three. The Warriors are doing it with Draymond, Wiggins and Kelly Oubre. They have no spacing and he's still unguardable.

And Harden is a singular talent, an offensive machine. I don't intend to demean him and my post wasn't about him at all. But mostly I can't believe Rocket fans still have a chip on their shoulder about him after he took the world's biggest shit all over you. Any discussion about James Harden should begin and end with, "The Rockets did everything in the world to make him happy from personnel moves to modifying travel plans to accommodate his titty bar schedule, and he still showed up out of shape and then just flat out quit on them to force a trade." How you guys can have any response other than "Fuck James Harden" to anything is beyond me. I should know. I'm a charter member of the fuck Kawhi Leonard club.