2020-2021 NBA Thread of Insanity

[conVINCEd 21,477]

15 minutes ago, Reynolds Woodcock said:

Steph. My goodness. 

He’s gonna burn himself out like Dame did last year in the bubble.

[ztejas 44,228]

On 5/7/2021 at 7:33 AM, Vic Mackey said:

On 5/7/2021 at 12:47 AM, ztejas said:

Also just saw this. Lmao. Who gives a shit. He was given the 2nd best player of his generation and couldn't materialize it into anything more than one Finals appearance. He's a stat-chasing loser and always will be. Does he have even one 2nd round appearance sans KD on his team? 

What did KD do without Westbrook in OKC? Except lose to Memphis in the playoffs. And didn't he completely miss the playoffs another year? Yeah that tells me KD wouldn't have did shit in Westbrook's situations. He joins the team he choked against for a few rings. Then hops to the next one.

 

On 5/7/2021 at 4:08 PM, d2o said:

Yeah, I tend to agree with most of this.   They both had a season without the other in OKC and neither did much.   I know KD is from UT so he will get the benefit of the doubt from most here but the over the top Russ hatred is pretty wild.    And they choked away that 3-1 together.

Y'all can't even remember these seasons properly so I'm not really interested in engaging in this discussion further. Russ tore his meniscus in 2013 against Houston and Durant won at least one but I believe 2 games without him to close it out - then ran into a Memphis team that was too much for them that also included the GOAT KD defender in Tony Allen. 

In 2014 Russ missed most of the season - KD didn't do anything but win MVP - then Russ returned for the playoffs and they took the 2014 Spurs to 6 games in the WCF (one of those games was sealed off of a Westbrook turnover). 

In 2015 - Russ took over after KD went down and they missed the playoffs. We know what happened the year after (oh and another note - Durant was great in game 7 in 2016 at Oracle and Westbrook was horrible - ymmv) - and sure you can lay the blame at either of their feet - but then look at the next year. OKC did what without Durant? Besides absolutely tanking in every metric and getting bounced in the playoffs in 5 games iirc. 

Again - Westbrook has done jack fucking shit in his career in the postseason without KD. That isn't debatable however much you think it was him or KD to blame for them never getting over the hump. And then KD goes to the Ws and it's like wow holy shit look how easy it is to win with this guy as your best player with a competent system and a point guard that plays the right way. 

Oh and KD tonight in his bounce back from his poor night against Dallas the other night:

21 point comeback at Denver posting 33 on 9/14 shooting 11 rebounds 7 assists 2 steals 2 blocks and they are still without Harden. 

Edited May 9, 2021 by ztejas

[ztejas 44,228]

On 5/7/2021 at 5:23 PM, shadow_operative said:

i have to wonder aloud though how KD would have done with basically any two other superstars/future MVPs on his team. my gut says they win at least one title, if not two or three. after all, Harden is an absolute playoff choke artist, and Russ believed (and probably still does believe) that he was better than KD and was on a mission to prove it every single night. replace Russ with CP3 or someone like that and i'm sorry, but there's no way they don't win at least one. KD could not have had two worse superstar/future superstar teammates by his side come playoff time/

Yes. Thank you. So whoever wants to come at me and Derka on this one go for it. 

[ztejas 44,228]

Here are some notables from those years. Maybe some memories here are too short.

This was in 2013 - the first game against HOU with Westbrook out (I think he had 25 in the first half):

This was in 2014 - on the road G6 closeout against the Clippers:

This was G6 closeout against the 67 win Spurs in 2016:

(This was also Tim Duncan's last NBA game and dammit if I didn't just accidentally make myself a little emotional)

So, yeah, unless you're argument is "KD isn't as good as LeBron" then I'm not interested. Westbrook held him back the way another star wouldn't have and it only becomes more apparent every season each of them plays without each other.

Edited May 9, 2021 by ztejas

[shadow_operative 15,932]

i'm still a tiny bit haunted by the memories of some of those "KD vs Russ" 4th quarters that would happen during tight playoff games for OKC. Both KD and Russ are more than capable of being plus distributors who can take a lot of attention from the defense and then find their guys for wide open/high percentage looks, and yet they got into a tug of war for the ball during those playoff 4Q's. Russ was determined to be the man, and he hogged the ball and forced the issue ad nauseam. and with Russ taking so much of the ball, KD wasn't about to pass the rock to Thabo Sefalosha, Kevin Martin, Kendrick Perkins, or Nick Collison whenever he did get his hands on it. Russ was their PG, but he didn't (doesn't) understand the role of a PG. give that team a great PG who knows his role- yeah, i think they win one, if not more. 

Edited May 9, 2021 by shadow_operative

[Kermit 3,162]

Quote

And then KD goes to the Ws and it's like wow holy shit look how easy it is to win with this guy as your best player with a competent system and a point guard that plays the right way

I remember thinking the same thing. There was a team that just needed Kevin to get over the hump.

[Wulaw Horn 19,595]

4 hours ago, Kermit said:

I remember thinking the same thing. There was a team that just needed Kevin to get over the hump.

I get the joke, and it is funny, but the dubs were 1 for 3 winning titles without KD and 0 for their last 2. And the 1 title they did win literally every team they played had massive injuries while they stayed healthy.  

[aggie08 21,796]

On 5/7/2021 at 10:43 PM, TommyGufano said:

Well.. Turns out LeBron is the difference in the 201x Pelicans and NBA champions

Yeah, anybody who had AD as a top 5 player and/or made the argument that he was the best player on the team earlier this season needs to cool their jets. A traditional big can only impact today's game so much.

[Kermit 3,162]

39 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I get the joke, and it is funny, but the dubs were 1 for 3 winning titles without KD and 0 for their last 2. And the 1 title they did win literally every team they played had massive injuries while they stayed healthy.  

They were 1 for 2 and lost the last series because Draymond went full retard. Injuries are a part of the game. I’m not giving the Spurs 2003 title back because Dirk didn’t play and the Lakers aren’t giving the 2000 title back because Tim was out. 

[Wulaw Horn 19,595]

16 minutes ago, Kermit said:

They were 1 for 2 and lost the last series because Draymond went full retard. Injuries are a part of the game. I’m not giving the Spurs 2003 title back because Dirk didn’t play and the Lakers aren’t giving the 2000 title back because Tim was out. 

They lost the last one with KD on the team when he didn’t play. That’s where I got my 1 for 3. 
all we know for sure is in a 5 year stretch with Steph and Dray and Klay together they were 2 2 when KD played more than a quarter in the finals and they were 1 for 3 when he didn’t. 

[aggie08 21,796]

They would have beat Toronto with a healthy Klay. Don't think there's much doubt there. They went 0-3 in Oracle in the Finals, and Klay missed 6 quarters in those games. 

[Wulaw Horn 19,595]

6 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

They would have beat Toronto with a healthy Klay. Don't think there's much doubt there. They went 0-3 in Oracle in the Finals, and Klay missed 6 quarters in those games. 

I suspect you are correct. And there’s a really good argument that they should have gone 5 for 5 with titles in those 5 years. Or at least 4 for 5. 3 seems like about the least you could expect with how it played out. 
but- I’d argue KD wasn’t useless to those teams. I think if he doesn’t come over they end up with 1 or 2 titles. He was damn integral to those titles imo. 

[aggie08 21,796]

12 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I suspect you are correct. And there’s a really good argument that they should have gone 5 for 5 with titles in those 5 years. Or at least 4 for 5. 3 seems like about the least you could expect with how it played out. 

Conversely, KD almost certainly doesn't come if Draymond doesn't go Draymond in 2016. KD thought that the narrative would be that they needed him to topple LeBron, and, by doing so, he'd take the mantle of best player in the league. Didn't work out the way, obviously, however true it may have been.

 

12 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

but- I’d argue KD wasn’t useless to those teams. I think if he doesn’t come over they end up with 1 or 2 titles. He was damn integral to those titles imo. 

Oh yeah, for sure. No argument here. No chance in hell that they have 3 without him.

Edited May 9, 2021 by aggie08

[Wulaw Horn 19,595]

2 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

Conversely, KD almost certainly doesn't come if Draymond doesn't go Draymond in 2016. KD thought that the narrative would be they needed him to topple KD, and, by doing so, he'd take the mantle of best player in the league. Didn't work out the way, obviously, however true it may have been.

 

Oh yeah, for sure. No argument here. No chance in hell that they have 3 without him.

Yeah- I think we agree 100%. Kermit was selling KD short but it was a great line. 

[Kermit 3,162]

40 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Yeah- I think we agree 100%. Kermit was selling KD short but it was a great line. 

Selling him short? He’s one of the greatest basketball players I’ve ever seen. He also joined one of the best teams I’ve ever seen. They were great with him, they were great without him. How is that selling him short? I just didn’t agree with Z’s assessment, that’s all.

[Wulaw Horn 19,595]

15 minutes ago, Kermit said:

Selling him short? He’s one of the greatest basketball players I’ve ever seen. He also joined one of the best teams I’ve ever seen. They were great with him, they were great without him. How is that selling him short? I just didn’t agree with Z’s assessment, that’s all.

You made it sound like they didn’t need him to get over the hump. Aggie and I think they did. 

[TommyGufano 6,023]

1 hour ago, aggie08 said:

Conversely, KD almost certainly doesn't come if Draymond doesn't go Draymond in 2016. KD thought that the narrative would be that they needed him to topple LeBron, and, by doing so, he'd take the mantle of best player in the league. Didn't work out the way, obviously, however true it may have been.

 

Oh yeah, for sure. No argument here. No chance in hell that they have 3 without him.

I suppose that depends on what they do with the $26.5mm they used to sign KD.

[Patrick Bateman 3,966]

3 minutes ago, TommyGufano said:

I suppose that depends on what they do with the $26.5mm they used to sign KD.

They were already on the record they were going to re-sign Harrison Barnes..... 

 

Moving on, does anyone feel really, really confident that the Jazz are coming out of the West?

 

[Kermit 3,162]

31 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

You made it sound like they didn’t need him to get over the hump. Aggie and I think they did. 

Am I fucking taking crazy pills? They won the goddamn finals and were a fuck up away from winning a second. KD put them on a starship when they were already on Mars. You act like they were a flawed team in need of a major piece. They were already the best team in the NBA. 

[Wulaw Horn 19,595]

1 minute ago, Kermit said:

Am I fucking taking crazy pills? They won the goddamn finals and were a fuck up away from winning a second. KD put them on a starship when they were already on Mars. You act like they were a flawed team in need of a major piece. They were already the best team in the NBA. 

I mean it’s not a crazy thought that they would have won at least 2 more titles but it’s not crazy to think they wouldn’t have either. That Cavs team the next Year was pretty fucking bad ass and better than the team that beat them in 2016. OKC could have run the back. Maybe Steph burns out carrying too much load. Then the next year the rockets won 65 and were ducking awesome- and KD was what won golden state that series. 
So no- you aren’t crazy to think they’d have won anyway but I don’t think either Aggie or I are crazy for saying no KD bet the under only 2.5 titles. 
 

[aggie08 21,796]

38 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

You made it sound like they didn’t need him to get over the hump. Aggie and I think they did. 

If you call going from a perennial title favorite to a mini-dynasty a hump, then yes.

[Wulaw Horn 19,595]

Just now, aggie08 said:

If you call going from a perennial title favorite to a mini-dynasty a hump, then yes.

Yep. There’s a big difference between being +280 going into the year like the Lakers were this year and -120 like the dubs did when they had it going.  

[aggie08 21,796]

13 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

They were already on the record they were going to re-sign Harrison Barnes..... 

 

Moving on, does anyone feel really, really confident that the Jazz are coming out of the West?

 

I was just going to ask what Phoenix and Utah's seeding strategy should be. I guess it's hard to avoid the Lakers when they have no clue where they'll end up. 

Unless you're Milwaukee, point differential usually has a pretty strong historical correlation to who the best teams shape up to be in the playoffs, and Utah is crushing the field.

[Wulaw Horn 19,595]

8 minutes ago, Kermit said:

Am I fucking taking crazy pills? They won the goddamn finals and were a fuck up away from winning a second. KD put them on a starship when they were already on Mars. You act like they were a flawed team in need of a major piece. They were already the best team in the NBA. 

Also it’s really fucking hard to win nba titles when your best player is 6’3”. That was always going to be a problem for the Warriors pre KD. OKC just killed them with size to jump out 3-1, and then Klay stole the series with an otherworldly quarter in game 6. But if you played that series 10 times I’m not sure the Dubs win more than 6

[Kermit 3,162]

Utah is killing teams without Mitchell. I don’t see anyone in the West giving them much of a fight. 

[Kermit 3,162]

1 minute ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Also it’s really fucking hard to win nba titles when your best player is 6’3”. That was always going to be a problem for the Warriors pre KD. OKC just killed them with size to jump out 3-1, and then Klay stole the series with an otherworldly quarter in game 6. But if you played that series 10 times I’m not sure the Dubs win more than 6

Well, they played it once.

[Wulaw Horn 19,595]

Just now, aggie08 said:

I was just going to ask what Phoenix and Utah's seeding strategy should be. I guess it's hard to avoid the Lakers when they have no clue where they'll end up. 

Unless you're Milwaukee, point differential usually has a pretty strong historical correlation to who the best teams shape up to be in the playoffs, and Utah is crushing the field.

Boy Phoenix has an interesting week ahead of them. They could end up completely and totally on the opposite side of the draw from Dallas, the Lakers, the Clips and the Jazz. That would be about as perfect as possible (Memphis or something and then the Denver Portland winner) a road to the finals. Or, they could get bounced on 5 Hales by a healthy Lakers team in round 1. 
I’ve never seen more of a high beta between the sides of the bracket  potentially out west as this year. 

[Wulaw Horn 19,595]

2 minutes ago, Kermit said:

Well, they played it once.

Sure. And it was as close as it could be. Look, maybe I’m completely wrong when I say this, but I think the black and white nature of outcomes in sports causes us to think stupidly about them. Team A beats team B on a 3 pointer at the buzzer and gets 1 win while team B gets one loss. But the reality of the situation is a million different things could have changed that outcome. When a series goes 7 games full of nail biters I’m not convinced that who came out ahead is demonstrative in saying who was better. 
We ascribe too much value and narrative to precarious results that could go either way. 

[Kermit 3,162]

1 minute ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Sure. And it was as close as it could be. Look, maybe I’m completely wrong when I say this, but I think the black and white nature of outcomes in sports causes us to think stupidly about them. Team A beats team B on a 3 pointer at the buzzer and gets 1 win while team B gets one loss. But the reality of the situation is a million different things could have changed that outcome. When a series goes 7 games full of nail biters I’m not convinced that who came out ahead is demonstrative in saying who was better. 
We ascribe too much value and narrative to precarious results that could go either way. 

That’s literally why they play the game. 

[Wulaw Horn 19,595]

Just now, Kermit said:

That’s literally why they play the game. 

Sure. But do you even remedial chaos theory bro?  

[aggie08 21,796]

So does LAC implode if Utah makes the Finals? Not that it's "better" to lose to the team that you still share a building with, but at least you can say, "Well, they have LeBron and AD." But if Joe Ingles takes your lunch money? Kawhi's player option may get some consideration if Playoff P makes his annual appearance.

[Kermit 3,162]

2 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

So does LAC implode if Utah makes the Finals? Not that it's "better" to lose to the team that you still share a building with, but at least you can say, "Well, they have LeBron and AD." But if Joe Ingles takes your lunch money? Kawhi's player option may get some consideration if Playoff P makes his annual appearance.

He’s more than welcome to come back to San Antonio so I can repeatedly kick him in the balls.

[Wulaw Horn 19,595]

2 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

So does LAC implode if Utah makes the Finals? Not that it's "better" to lose to the team that you still share a building with, but at least you can say, "Well, they have LeBron and AD." But if Joe Ingles takes your lunch money? Kawhi's player option may get some consideration if Playoff P makes his annual appearance.

I’d think they go to Leonard and ask him to sign the max and tell him they will get whoever he wants to be his sidekick. They aren’t in love with playoff P over there I don’t think. 

[aggie08 21,796]

1 minute ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I’d think they go to Leonard and ask him to sign the max and tell him they will get whoever he wants to be his sidekick. They aren’t in love with playoff P over there I don’t think. 

They liked him enough to give him a max extension. Trade him for Bradley Beal?

[Kermit 3,162]

Just now, Wulaw Horn said:

I’d think they go to Leonard and ask him to sign the max and tell him they will get whoever he wants to be his sidekick. They aren’t in love with playoff P over there I don’t think. 

The problem with that scenario is that they traded the farm to get Paul in the first place. Their cupboard is bare and I don’t think anyone in the NBA is going to do them any favors.

[Kermit 3,162]

Just now, aggie08 said:

They liked him enough to give him a max extension. Trade him for Bradley Beal?

There’s no way in hell. 

[hobbes2702 13,469]

6 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I’d think they go to Leonard and ask him to sign the max and tell him they will get whoever he wants to be his sidekick. They aren’t in love with playoff P over there I don’t think. 

What moves can they really make? They don’t have any draft capital and they don’t have a flexible cap at all.

[aggie08 21,796]

2 minutes ago, Kermit said:

There’s no way in hell. 

It's the 2021 NBA. All it takes is the dreaded agent "leaked" list of teams I want to be traded to.

[aggie08 21,796]

3 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

What moves can they really make? They don’t have any draft capital and they don’t have a flexible cap at all.

Kawhi leaving two years after forcing them to deal every asset that they have would be peak Kawhi. And peak Clippers. I need this to happen.

Edited May 9, 2021 by aggie08

[Wulaw Horn 19,595]

George himself is an asset. They have some other pieces as well that are interesting. They have no draft capital now but they can always trade some of their guys to convert into draft capital. 
look at the rockets going from 3 picks to 9 over the next 6 years. They can make it happen if they want to to happen. 

[Kermit 3,162]

2 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

It's the 2021 NBA. All it takes is the dreaded agent "leaked" list of teams I want to be traded to.

True, but Beal would’ve already put that out there. He’s played on some stinkers and has been loyal through it all. I realize it’s the NBA, but that dude had every right to get the fuck out of there and he hasn’t. Beal is an anomaly.

[Patrick Bateman 3,966]

15 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

So does LAC implode if Utah makes the Finals? Not that it's "better" to lose to the team that you still share a building with, but at least you can say, "Well, they have LeBron and AD." But if Joe Ingles takes your lunch money? Kawhi's player option may get some consideration if Playoff P makes his annual appearance.

One of the more interesting questions in the offseason.  What happens if the Clippers can't get past Phoenix?  Fucking Phoenix or worse even, Playoff P(retender) goes 0-37 from the 3 and they get taken out by Portland?

But where the fuck could the Wanderer go?  He's where he always wanted to be, he's just not good enough.

 

[Mitch Cumsteen 18,963]

1 hour ago, aggie08 said:

Kawhi leaving two years after forcing them to deal every asset that they have would be peak Kawhi. And peak Clippers. I need this to happen.

Kawhi isn't going anywhere. If he cared about winning first and foremost, he'd still be in San Antonio. Or Toronto. Kawhi cares about living in Southern California, making money, and performing gay incest porn with his uncle. Anything else is bullshit. 

[Machinator 32,103]

Julius Randle makes some absolutely ridiculous shots.

[Machinator 32,103]

 

[ztejas 44,228]

14 hours ago, aggie08 said:

They would have beat Toronto with a healthy Klay. Don't think there's much doubt there.

Uh... what? There is a ton of doubt there. 

And do they beat the Clippers to get there without KD? Or the Spurs in the first round (can't remember if that was 2018 or 2019)?

These are all tired arguments but some of the stuff that gets brought up here is ridiculous. Besides - you and Kermit are detracting from the main point anyway. 

[ztejas 44,228]

12 hours ago, Kermit said:

Am I fucking taking crazy pills? They won the goddamn finals and were a fuck up away from winning a second.

They barely made the Finals that 2nd year and the 2015 title is one of the weakest in modern history (Like I'd argue the Lakers run last year was probably tougher). I also don't think they beat the Cavs in 2017 without Durant. Or win the title in general. 

I mean Jesus they went fucking 16-1 in 2017 in the playoffs. It was the greatest team of all time bar none. They were great in 2016 pre-KD but they weren't that good. IDGAF about what they did in the regular season - they got taken to 7 by 2 teams - both without HCA - and lost to one of them. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by ztejas

[shadow_operative 15,932]

anyone who talks shit about KD's decision to join GS needs to have a logical alternative in the chamber. Otherwise, shut up. 

[MNLonghornFUKM 8,982]

One of the more interesting questions in the offseason.  What happens if the Clippers can't get past Phoenix?  Fucking Phoenix or worse even, Playoff P(retender) goes 0-37 from the 3 and they get taken out by Portland?
But where the fuck could the Wanderer go?  He's where he always wanted to be, he's just not good enough.
 

Just trade first round pick from the 2030-2033 draft and acquire westbrook

[bluto 4,996]

I mean Jesus they went fucking 16-1 in 2017 in the playoffs. It was the greatest team of all time bar none. They were great in 2016 pre-KD but they weren't that good. IDGAF about what they did in the regular season - they got taken to 7 by 2 teams - both without HCA - and lost to one of them. 

what the hell would Hans Christian Andersen have added to them even if he were alive?!? He was 6’1” but he still woulda gotten eaten alive in today’s nba.