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2020-2021 NBA Thread of Insanity

ztejas

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Fastbreak

Fastbreak 4045

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While many have celebrated Westbrook’s run toward this record — including Robertson, who was in OKC when Westbrook broke his single season record and has spoken openly about rooting for Westbrook to take over the record — others have looked to criticize Westbrook by saying that he’s hunting triple-doubles and too concerned about his own stats.

However, there is one stat that refutes that claim — win percentage. Westbrook’s teams have won 75.1% of the games (136-45) when he records a triple-double. That is a higher win percentage than Robertson (72.4%) and Kidd (71.0%) and trails only Magic (78.3%) and LeBron (76.8%) among the top five all-time in career triple-doubles.

 

https://www.nba.com/news/mr-triple-double-is-about-to-get-some-company

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Mitch Cumsteen
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I've seen Harden plenty -- pounding away to either try a step back three or getting a pick and going downhill and then forcing contact at the rack for his endless parade to the free throw line, or kic

Mitch Cumsteen
Mitch Cumsteen

As long as Russ plays for Washington and Scott Brooks, he's going to both obliterate the triple double record and render it meaningless. The Wiz are the perfect team for him -- they play at the fastes

Mitch Cumsteen
Mitch Cumsteen

Kobe was a ridiculously great basketball player but the narrative around him, especially posthumously, has become horribly distorted. He was a terrible teammate, to the point where the Lakers, even be

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shadow_operative

shadow_operative 15932

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Russ's teams winning games does not refute the fact that he (at least in OKC) was absolutely 100% chasing stats. i do not watch Wizards games, for obvious reasons, but if he's still playing the way he was in OKC then he is 100% stat chasing. like i said, it was comical watching him fighting Steven Adams for defensive rebounds and then wildly and aimlessly sprinting down court past the rest of his teammates. when i see that he's still having 20-rebound nights in Washington, i don't imagine that it's because 20 different missed three point shots flew 25 feet out to the perimeter and landed in Russel's lap. no, i feel confident that Russ is still just being Russ, rabidly trying to cover every single inch of the court as if his stats are what's most important.

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ztejas

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1 hour ago, shadow_operative said:

the one-handed touch finishes, the wrap around passes, the 41% shooting from deep, the sheer manipulation of the defense- I've never seen anything like him. 

I mean... Bird checks all those boxes. You mean playing at C?

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shadow_operative

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9 minutes ago, ztejas said:

I mean... Bird checks all those boxes. You mean playing at C?

yes. there's never been anyone like him. he's a seven footer (and not in the new school, skinny/athletic KD-type mold) who is the best passer in the game, one of the best true shooters in the game, and arguably the best play maker in the game, despite the fact that he would probably finish dead last in an NBA combine type of event. if he played for the Lakers he'd be a bigger star than probably everyone but LeBron.

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ztejas

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6 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

yes. there's never been anyone like him. he's a seven footer (and in the new school, skinny/athletic mold) who is the best passer in the game, one of the best true shooters in the game, and arguably the best play maker in the game, despite the fact that he would probably finish dead last in an NBA combine type of event. if he played for the Lakers he'd be a bigger star than probably everyone but LeBron.

Well he's probably about to win MVP. So really I'm not sure what you're complaining about. Especially when ultimately the title is going to come down to who has a healthy LeBron or Durant since it's still them 2 and then the rest of the world. 

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ztejas

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13 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

i'm not sure what makes you think i'm complaining about something. 🤷🏼‍♂️ 

The Lakers comment.

Also - since 2011 - LeBron or KD have been on the title team every season save 2014, 2015 (KD injury) and 2019 (KD ankle injury).

It's going to take the general populous so long to understand how special it was to have prime LeBron and KD doing their thing at the same time. 

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shadow_operative

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8 minutes ago, ztejas said:

The Lakers comment.

Also - since 2011 - LeBron or KD have been on the title team every season save 2014, 2015 (KD injury) and 2019 (KD ankle injury).

It's going to take the general populous so long to understand how special it was to have prime LeBron and KD doing their thing at the same time. 

my point was simply that Jokic isn't more celebrated because nobody watches him play. if he were on the Lakers and Sportscenter spent half an hour on him every night then he'd be a household name. yes, he's about to win MVP, but he's still pretty anonymous for a guy of his talent and production. even people who follow the NBA are only now starting to "discover" him. it's just a shame that he isn't on TV more. 

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ztejas

ztejas 44228

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9 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

my point was simply that Jokic isn't more celebrated because nobody watches him play. if he were on the Lakers and Sportscenter spent half an hour on him every night then he'd be a household name. yes, he's about to win MVP, but he's still pretty anonymous for a guy of his talent and production. even people who follow the NBA are only now starting to "discover" him. it's just a shame that he isn't on TV more. 

I get you man. I think my point is MVP is MVP and his legacy will reflect that looking back. Who gives a fuck about attention. Ask TD.

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Sbbruin

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10 hours ago, conVINCEd said:

Mavs have Toronto and Minnesota to wrap up the season.  Given the schizophrenic nature of their season, I fully expect them to lose one, but they won’t lose both.

On the flip side, Portland has Phoenix and Denver.  They could quite conceivably lose both.  Lakers have the Pacers and Hornets.  Assuming AD and LBJ are back for both, they should win both.  Still more likely they end up in the play-in, but not a lock.

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HookEm

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 <Minnesota> could jockey and get a few more combinations with losses. 

I don't think so.  ALL the bottom teams are tanking as hard as the can at this point.  Look at this schedule and show me more than 1-2 wins combined.  

  • 22-47 Minnesota - DEN, BOS, DAL
  • 22-48 Cleveland - WAS, BKN
  • 21-49 OKC - UTA, LAC
  • 21-48 Orlando - ATL, PHI, PHI
  • 20-50 Detroit - DEN, MIA
  • 16-54 Houston - LAC, ATL
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Mitch Cumsteen

Mitch Cumsteen 18963

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13 hours ago, Fastbreak said:

https://www.nba.com/news/mr-triple-double-is-about-to-get-some-company

As long as Russ plays for Washington and Scott Brooks, he's going to both obliterate the triple double record and render it meaningless. The Wiz are the perfect team for him -- they play at the fastest pace in the league and play virtually no defense. Every game is a glorified track meet with opportunities galore to pad your stats.

As a general rule, I don't like advanced stats in basketball and prefer to support my judgments with my own eyes, but the advanced numbers on Russ are astounding for a guy who averages a triple double - he's got a PER of 19.3, where 15 is the league average. For comparison Jokic is at 31.7. Russ isn't even top 50 in the league. And that is a stat mostly based on offensive production and rebounding. Do you know how fucked that is that a guy averaging a triple double doesn't rank in the top 50 in the league in PER? It's everything wrong with Russell Westbrook summed up in one meaningless statistic.

I started thinking about some analogous players/situations, and I remembered when Paul Westhead got the Nuggets job and they decided to just say fuck it and run the Loyola Marymount balls to the walls system. There was no defense, just fast breaks and threes - it was like Mike D'Antoni on a crank bender. In some ways, Westhead was ahead of his time. But in his actual time, they went 20-62 and had the worst record in the league. A horribly failed experiment. Michael Adams was a pretty good player, an undersized jitterbug PG who averaged about 15 ppg for his career. That first season under Westhead in 1990-91, he averaged 26.5 PPG and 10.5 APG. during a time in the league where it was extremely difficult to put up those numbers. He finished 6th in the league in scoring, behind MJ (31.5 ppg), Karl Malone, Bernard King, Barkley and Ewing, but ahead of Dominique, David Robinson and Chris Mullin. Adams took 8.5 threes per game while the league average was 7.1 threes attempted per game PER TEAM. And he was terrible at it, shooting 29.6% from behind the line. He put up huge numbers, but he was horribly inefficient on a team that had the worst record in the league. In essence, he was a journeyman who put up insane, bullshit numbers, arguably the most empty calories recorded in NBA history. And here are his stats compared to Russell Westbrook this year:

Per Game

Rk Player Season Age G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% 2P 2PA 2P% eFG% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
1 Michael Adams 1990-91 28 66 66 35.5 8.5 21.5 .394 2.5 8.5 .296 6.0 13.0 .459 .453 7.0 8.0 .879 0.9 3.0 3.9 10.5 2.2 0.1 3.6 2.5 26.5
2 Russell Westbrook 2020-21 32 63 63 36.3 8.4 19.1 .441 1.3 4.1 .319 7.1 15.0 .474 .475 4.1 6.2 .651 1.7 9.8 11.5 11.7 1.3 0.4 4.9 2.9 22.2

 

Per 100 possessions

Rk Player Season Age G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% 2P 2PA 2P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS   ORtg DRtg
1 Michael Adams 1990-91 28 66 66 2346 10.1 25.6 .394 3.0 10.2 .296 7.1 15.4 .459 8.4 9.5 .879 1.0 3.6 4.6 12.5 2.6 0.1 4.3 2.9 31.5   113 115
2 Russell Westbrook 2020-21 32 63 63 2289 10.7 24.3 .441 1.7 5.2 .319 9.0 19.0 .474 5.2 7.9 .651 2.1 12.4 14.6 14.8 1.7 0.5 6.2 3.7 28.2   104 110

Advanced

Rk Player Season Age G MP PER TS% 3PAr FTr ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG%   OWS DWS WS WS/48   OBPM DBPM BPM VORP
1 Michael Adams 1990-91 28 66 2346 22.3 .530 .397 .372 2.1 8.8 5.2 39.4 2.6 0.1 12.7 28.5   5.8 0.4 6.3 .128   6.0 -0.7 5.3 4.3
2 Russell Westbrook 2020-21 32 63 2289 19.3 .508 .216 .326 4.9 28.5 16.7 48.6 1.7 0.8 18.3 30.5   0.3 3.0 3.3 .069   2.4 0.7 3.2 3.0

Even little Michael Adams, with the most inefficient and anomalous bullshit stats that I could recall in my lifetime was more efficient than Russell Westbrook. Do you know how fucked that is? And I want to like Westbrook. I really do. He plays his ass off. Every night he brings it. His energy and hustle are in the top 1% of NBA players. He's exciting as hell. When he comes off a screen at full speed heading toward the rim, it's terrifying and exhilarating. The guy is incredible. But he plays losing, stupid, inefficient basketball. He's the Wizard of Oz Scarecrow of the NBA. If he only had a fucking brain...

Edited by Mitch Cumsteen
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ztejas

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2 hours ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

As long as Russ plays for Washington and Scott Brooks, he's going to both obliterate the triple double record and render it meaningless. The Wiz are the perfect team for him -- they play at the fastest pace in the league and play virtually no defense. Every game is a glorified track meet with opportunities galore to pad your stats.

As a general rule, I don't like advanced stats in basketball and prefer to support my judgments with my own eyes, but the advanced numbers on Russ are astounding for a guy who averages a triple double - he's got a PER of 19.3, where 15 is the league average. For comparison Jokic is at 31.7. Russ isn't even top 50 in the league. And that is a stat mostly based on offensive production and rebounding. Do you know how fucked that is that a guy averaging a triple double doesn't rank in the top 50 in the league in PER? It's everything wrong with Russell Westbrook summed up in one meaningless statistic.

I started thinking about some analogous players/situations, and I remembered when Paul Westhead got the Nuggets job and they decided to just say fuck it and run the Loyola Marymount balls to the walls system. There was no defense, just fast breaks and threes - it was like Mike D'Antoni on a crank bender. In some ways, Westhead was ahead of his time. But in his actual time, they went 20-62 and had the worst record in the league. A horribly failed experiment. Michael Adams was a pretty good player, an undersized jitterbug PG who averaged about 15 ppg for his career. That first season under Westhead in 1990-91, he averaged 26.5 PPG and 10.5 APG. during a time in the league where it was extremely difficult to put up those numbers. He finished 6th in the league in scoring, behind MJ (31.5 ppg), Karl Malone, Bernard King, Barkley and Ewing, but ahead of Dominique, David Robinson and Chris Mullin. Adams took 8.5 threes per game while the league average was 7.1 threes attempted per game PER TEAM. And he was terrible at it, shooting 29.6% from behind the line. He put up huge numbers, but he was horribly inefficient on a team that had the worst record in the league. In essence, he was a journeyman who put up insane, bullshit numbers, arguably the most empty calories recorded in NBA history. And here are his stats compared to Russell Westbrook this year:

Per Game

Rk Player Season Age G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% 2P 2PA 2P% eFG% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
1 Michael Adams 1990-91 28 66 66 35.5 8.5 21.5 .394 2.5 8.5 .296 6.0 13.0 .459 .453 7.0 8.0 .879 0.9 3.0 3.9 10.5 2.2 0.1 3.6 2.5 26.5
2 Russell Westbrook 2020-21 32 63 63 36.3 8.4 19.1 .441 1.3 4.1 .319 7.1 15.0 .474 .475 4.1 6.2 .651 1.7 9.8 11.5 11.7 1.3 0.4 4.9 2.9 22.2

 

Per 100 possessions

Rk Player Season Age G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% 2P 2PA 2P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS   ORtg DRtg
1 Michael Adams 1990-91 28 66 66 2346 10.1 25.6 .394 3.0 10.2 .296 7.1 15.4 .459 8.4 9.5 .879 1.0 3.6 4.6 12.5 2.6 0.1 4.3 2.9 31.5   113 115
2 Russell Westbrook 2020-21 32 63 63 2289 10.7 24.3 .441 1.7 5.2 .319 9.0 19.0 .474 5.2 7.9 .651 2.1 12.4 14.6 14.8 1.7 0.5 6.2 3.7 28.2   104 110

Advanced

Rk Player Season Age G MP PER TS% 3PAr FTr ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG%   OWS DWS WS WS/48   OBPM DBPM BPM VORP
1 Michael Adams 1990-91 28 66 2346 22.3 .530 .397 .372 2.1 8.8 5.2 39.4 2.6 0.1 12.7 28.5   5.8 0.4 6.3 .128   6.0 -0.7 5.3 4.3
2 Russell Westbrook 2020-21 32 63 2289 19.3 .508 .216 .326 4.9 28.5 16.7 48.6 1.7 0.8 18.3 30.5   0.3 3.0 3.3 .069   2.4 0.7 3.2 3.0

Even little Michael Adams, with the most inefficient and anomalous bullshit stats that I could recall in my lifetime was more efficient than Russell Westbrook. Do you know how fucked that is? And I want to like Westbrook. I really do. He plays his ass off. Every night he brings it. His energy and hustle are in the top 1% of NBA players. He's exciting as hell. When he comes off a screen at full speed heading toward the rim, it's terrifying and exhilarating. The guy is incredible. But he plays losing, stupid, inefficient basketball. He's the Wizard of Oz Scarecrow of the NBA. If he only had a fucking brain...

Great fucking post. 

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TommyGufano

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2 hours ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

As long as Russ plays for Washington and Scott Brooks, he's going to both obliterate the triple double record and render it meaningless. The Wiz are the perfect team for him -- they play at the fastest pace in the league and play virtually no defense. Every game is a glorified track meet with opportunities galore to pad your stats.

As a general rule, I don't like advanced stats in basketball and prefer to support my judgments with my own eyes, but the advanced numbers on Russ are astounding for a guy who averages a triple double - he's got a PER of 19.3, where 15 is the league average. For comparison Jokic is at 31.7. Russ isn't even top 50 in the league. And that is a stat mostly based on offensive production and rebounding. Do you know how fucked that is that a guy averaging a triple double doesn't rank in the top 50 in the league in PER? It's everything wrong with Russell Westbrook summed up in one meaningless statistic.

I started thinking about some analogous players/situations, and I remembered when Paul Westhead got the Nuggets job and they decided to just say fuck it and run the Loyola Marymount balls to the walls system. There was no defense, just fast breaks and threes - it was like Mike D'Antoni on a crank bender. In some ways, Westhead was ahead of his time. But in his actual time, they went 20-62 and had the worst record in the league. A horribly failed experiment. Michael Adams was a pretty good player, an undersized jitterbug PG who averaged about 15 ppg for his career. That first season under Westhead in 1990-91, he averaged 26.5 PPG and 10.5 APG. during a time in the league where it was extremely difficult to put up those numbers. He finished 6th in the league in scoring, behind MJ (31.5 ppg), Karl Malone, Bernard King, Barkley and Ewing, but ahead of Dominique, David Robinson and Chris Mullin. Adams took 8.5 threes per game while the league average was 7.1 threes attempted per game PER TEAM. And he was terrible at it, shooting 29.6% from behind the line. He put up huge numbers, but he was horribly inefficient on a team that had the worst record in the league. In essence, he was a journeyman who put up insane, bullshit numbers, arguably the most empty calories recorded in NBA history. And here are his stats compared to Russell Westbrook this year:

Per Game

Rk Player Season Age G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% 2P 2PA 2P% eFG% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
1 Michael Adams 1990-91 28 66 66 35.5 8.5 21.5 .394 2.5 8.5 .296 6.0 13.0 .459 .453 7.0 8.0 .879 0.9 3.0 3.9 10.5 2.2 0.1 3.6 2.5 26.5
2 Russell Westbrook 2020-21 32 63 63 36.3 8.4 19.1 .441 1.3 4.1 .319 7.1 15.0 .474 .475 4.1 6.2 .651 1.7 9.8 11.5 11.7 1.3 0.4 4.9 2.9 22.2

 

Per 100 possessions

Rk Player Season Age G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% 2P 2PA 2P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS   ORtg DRtg
1 Michael Adams 1990-91 28 66 66 2346 10.1 25.6 .394 3.0 10.2 .296 7.1 15.4 .459 8.4 9.5 .879 1.0 3.6 4.6 12.5 2.6 0.1 4.3 2.9 31.5   113 115
2 Russell Westbrook 2020-21 32 63 63 2289 10.7 24.3 .441 1.7 5.2 .319 9.0 19.0 .474 5.2 7.9 .651 2.1 12.4 14.6 14.8 1.7 0.5 6.2 3.7 28.2   104 110

Advanced

Rk Player Season Age G MP PER TS% 3PAr FTr ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG%   OWS DWS WS WS/48   OBPM DBPM BPM VORP
1 Michael Adams 1990-91 28 66 2346 22.3 .530 .397 .372 2.1 8.8 5.2 39.4 2.6 0.1 12.7 28.5   5.8 0.4 6.3 .128   6.0 -0.7 5.3 4.3
2 Russell Westbrook 2020-21 32 63 2289 19.3 .508 .216 .326 4.9 28.5 16.7 48.6 1.7 0.8 18.3 30.5   0.3 3.0 3.3 .069   2.4 0.7 3.2 3.0

Even little Michael Adams, with the most inefficient and anomalous bullshit stats that I could recall in my lifetime was more efficient than Russell Westbrook. Do you know how fucked that is? And I want to like Westbrook. I really do. He plays his ass off. Every night he brings it. His energy and hustle are in the top 1% of NBA players. He's exciting as hell. When he comes off a screen at full speed heading toward the rim, it's terrifying and exhilarating. The guy is incredible. But he plays losing, stupid, inefficient basketball. He's the Wizard of Oz Scarecrow of the NBA. If he only had a fucking brain...

If pace is the determining factor, was the previous triple doubles record meaningful? 

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aggie08

aggie08 21796

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17 hours ago, Fastbreak said:

Russ has a 75% win percentage in games he records a triple double.  Tell me again about stat chasing.

I'm sorry, but this stat is kind of useless on its own. 

You mean to tell me that, when the other team is missing enough shots to create ample uncontested defensive rebound opportunities, and his own teammates are hitting enough shots to get him to 10+ assists, they have a much better chance to win? No wai. 

Do you think he's not still chasing stats in games where he wasn't able to record a triple-double? Could they have stood a better chance to win those games had his focus been on playing smart, team-oriented basketball? Maybe, maybe not.

What's his win% in the playoffs when teams actually spend the time to game plan stopping what amounts to a very simple offense and rebounds aren't surrendered quite so easily?

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ztejas

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26 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

I'm sorry, but this stat is kind of useless on its own. 

You mean to tell me that, when the other team is missing enough shots to create ample uncontested defensive rebound opportunities, and his own teammates are hitting enough shots to get him to 10+ assists, they have a much better chance to win? No wai. 

Do you think he's not still chasing stats in games where he wasn't able to record a triple-double? Could they have stood a better chance to win those games had his focus been on playing smart, team-oriented basketball? Maybe, maybe not.

What's his win% in the playoffs when teams actually spend the time to game plan stopping what amounts to a very simple offense and rebounds aren't surrendered quite so easily?

He also... overall... has a win% of .600. Russ has been on mostly good teams in his career. 

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Mitch Cumsteen

Mitch Cumsteen 18963

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41 minutes ago, TommyGufano said:

If pace is the determining factor, was the previous triple doubles record meaningful? 

Probably not, if we're being honest.  The year Oscar averaged a triple double, teams were typically playing games in the 120's.  Five players averaged over 30 ppg and a sixth averaged 29.5 ppg, and there were only 8 teams. That's 3/4 of the league that had a ~30 point scorer on their team. The rebounding numbers were just as fucked. Four guys averaged more than 18 rebounds/game. And who even knows how they counted assists back then. How much stock can you really put into those statistics? 

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conVINCEd

conVINCEd 21477

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3 hours ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

As long as Russ plays for Washington and Scott Brooks, he's going to both obliterate the triple double record and render it meaningless. The Wiz are the perfect team for him -- they play at the fastest pace in the league and play virtually no defense. Every game is a glorified track meet with opportunities galore to pad your stats.

As a general rule, I don't like advanced stats in basketball and prefer to support my judgments with my own eyes, but the advanced numbers on Russ are astounding for a guy who averages a triple double - he's got a PER of 19.3, where 15 is the league average. For comparison Jokic is at 31.7. Russ isn't even top 50 in the league. And that is a stat mostly based on offensive production and rebounding. Do you know how fucked that is that a guy averaging a triple double doesn't rank in the top 50 in the league in PER? It's everything wrong with Russell Westbrook summed up in one meaningless statistic.

I started thinking about some analogous players/situations, and I remembered when Paul Westhead got the Nuggets job and they decided to just say fuck it and run the Loyola Marymount balls to the walls system. There was no defense, just fast breaks and threes - it was like Mike D'Antoni on a crank bender. In some ways, Westhead was ahead of his time. But in his actual time, they went 20-62 and had the worst record in the league. A horribly failed experiment. Michael Adams was a pretty good player, an undersized jitterbug PG who averaged about 15 ppg for his career. That first season under Westhead in 1990-91, he averaged 26.5 PPG and 10.5 APG. during a time in the league where it was extremely difficult to put up those numbers. He finished 6th in the league in scoring, behind MJ (31.5 ppg), Karl Malone, Bernard King, Barkley and Ewing, but ahead of Dominique, David Robinson and Chris Mullin. Adams took 8.5 threes per game while the league average was 7.1 threes attempted per game PER TEAM. And he was terrible at it, shooting 29.6% from behind the line. He put up huge numbers, but he was horribly inefficient on a team that had the worst record in the league. In essence, he was a journeyman who put up insane, bullshit numbers, arguably the most empty calories recorded in NBA history. And here are his stats compared to Russell Westbrook this year:

Per Game

Rk Player Season Age G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% 2P 2PA 2P% eFG% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
1 Michael Adams 1990-91 28 66 66 35.5 8.5 21.5 .394 2.5 8.5 .296 6.0 13.0 .459 .453 7.0 8.0 .879 0.9 3.0 3.9 10.5 2.2 0.1 3.6 2.5 26.5
2 Russell Westbrook 2020-21 32 63 63 36.3 8.4 19.1 .441 1.3 4.1 .319 7.1 15.0 .474 .475 4.1 6.2 .651 1.7 9.8 11.5 11.7 1.3 0.4 4.9 2.9 22.2

 

Per 100 possessions

Rk Player Season Age G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% 2P 2PA 2P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS   ORtg DRtg
1 Michael Adams 1990-91 28 66 66 2346 10.1 25.6 .394 3.0 10.2 .296 7.1 15.4 .459 8.4 9.5 .879 1.0 3.6 4.6 12.5 2.6 0.1 4.3 2.9 31.5   113 115
2 Russell Westbrook 2020-21 32 63 63 2289 10.7 24.3 .441 1.7 5.2 .319 9.0 19.0 .474 5.2 7.9 .651 2.1 12.4 14.6 14.8 1.7 0.5 6.2 3.7 28.2   104 110

Advanced

Rk Player Season Age G MP PER TS% 3PAr FTr ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG%   OWS DWS WS WS/48   OBPM DBPM BPM VORP
1 Michael Adams 1990-91 28 66 2346 22.3 .530 .397 .372 2.1 8.8 5.2 39.4 2.6 0.1 12.7 28.5   5.8 0.4 6.3 .128   6.0 -0.7 5.3 4.3
2 Russell Westbrook 2020-21 32 63 2289 19.3 .508 .216 .326 4.9 28.5 16.7 48.6 1.7 0.8 18.3 30.5   0.3 3.0 3.3 .069   2.4 0.7 3.2 3.0

Even little Michael Adams, with the most inefficient and anomalous bullshit stats that I could recall in my lifetime was more efficient than Russell Westbrook. Do you know how fucked that is? And I want to like Westbrook. I really do. He plays his ass off. Every night he brings it. His energy and hustle are in the top 1% of NBA players. He's exciting as hell. When he comes off a screen at full speed heading toward the rim, it's terrifying and exhilarating. The guy is incredible. But he plays losing, stupid, inefficient basketball. He's the Wizard of Oz Scarecrow of the NBA. If he only had a fucking brain...

A perfect summation on my feelings about Russ.  I would only add that his fashion choices annoy the fuck out of me.

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aggie08

aggie08 21796

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Posted

Not to pile on, but kind of a fun thought exercise: how many players would you consider better passers/playmakers than Russ? 

Not sure much a knock as it is testament to the strength of the league when the dude who has been at or near the top of the assist list every season might not be a Top 15 creator.

The no brainers:

LeBron

Luka

Harden

Jokic

Draymond

CP3

Trae

 

Most likely:

Dame

Steph

Butler

Rubio

 

Young guys I'd probably take:

Simmons

Fox

Ja

LaMelo

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conVINCEd

conVINCEd 21477

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

Not to pile on, but kind of a fun thought exercise: how many players would you consider better passers/playmakers than Russ? 

Not sure much a knock as it is testament to the strength of the league when the dude who has been at or near the top of the assist list every season might not be a Top 15 creator.

The no brainers:

LeBron

Luka

Harden

Jokic

Draymond

CP3

Trae

 

Most likely:

Dame

Steph

Butler

Rubio

 

Young guys I'd probably take:

Simmons

Fox

Ja

LaMelo

You should probably move Steph and Dame up to group A.

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ztejas

ztejas 44228

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2 hours ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

And who even knows how they counted assists back then.

Assists have gotten more lenient over the years actually. There's a lot of stuff they wouldn't have called an assist in the 70s that is scored as such today.

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aggie08

aggie08 21796

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5 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Assists have gotten more lenient over the years actually. There's a lot of stuff they wouldn't have called an assist in the 70s that is scored as such today.

While this is true, Utah's scorekeeper is the OG of "did the guy who John Stockton passed the ball to eventually score within the 24 second shot clock?" home-cooking assist tabulations.

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conVINCEd

conVINCEd 21477

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1 minute ago, aggie08 said:

While this is true, Utah's scorekeeper is the OG of "did the guy who John Stockton passed the ball to eventually score within the 24 second shot clock?" home-cooking assist tabulations.

There was definitely some home cooking in the 80’s/90’s.

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conVINCEd

conVINCEd 21477

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3 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Well that's true of any era and continues to be the case. 

The league office can now adjust after the fact.  Luka has gained a couple of triple/doubles and lost a few as well.  Back in the day the home scorekeeper was the first and last word.

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ztejas

ztejas 44228

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Just now, conVINCEd said:

The league office can now adjust after the fact.  Luka has gained a couple of triple/doubles and lost a few as well.  Back in the day the home scorekeeper was the first and last word.

Good point.

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Patrick Bateman

Patrick Bateman 3966

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6 hours ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

As long as Russ plays for Washington and Scott Brooks, he's going to both obliterate the triple double record and render it meaningless. The Wiz are the perfect team for him -- they play at the fastest pace in the league and play virtually no defense. Every game is a glorified track meet with opportunities galore to pad your stats.

As a general rule, I don't like advanced stats in basketball and prefer to support my judgments with my own eyes, but the advanced numbers on Russ are astounding for a guy who averages a triple double - he's got a PER of 19.3, where 15 is the league average. For comparison Jokic is at 31.7. Russ isn't even top 50 in the league. And that is a stat mostly based on offensive production and rebounding. Do you know how fucked that is that a guy averaging a triple double doesn't rank in the top 50 in the league in PER? It's everything wrong with Russell Westbrook summed up in one meaningless statistic.

I started thinking about some analogous players/situations, and I remembered when Paul Westhead got the Nuggets job and they decided to just say fuck it and run the Loyola Marymount balls to the walls system. There was no defense, just fast breaks and threes - it was like Mike D'Antoni on a crank bender. In some ways, Westhead was ahead of his time. But in his actual time, they went 20-62 and had the worst record in the league. A horribly failed experiment. Michael Adams was a pretty good player, an undersized jitterbug PG who averaged about 15 ppg for his career. That first season under Westhead in 1990-91, he averaged 26.5 PPG and 10.5 APG. during a time in the league where it was extremely difficult to put up those numbers. He finished 6th in the league in scoring, behind MJ (31.5 ppg), Karl Malone, Bernard King, Barkley and Ewing, but ahead of Dominique, David Robinson and Chris Mullin. Adams took 8.5 threes per game while the league average was 7.1 threes attempted per game PER TEAM. And he was terrible at it, shooting 29.6% from behind the line. He put up huge numbers, but he was horribly inefficient on a team that had the worst record in the league. In essence, he was a journeyman who put up insane, bullshit numbers, arguably the most empty calories recorded in NBA history. And here are his stats compared to Russell Westbrook this year:

Per Game

Rk Player Season Age G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% 2P 2PA 2P% eFG% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
1 Michael Adams 1990-91 28 66 66 35.5 8.5 21.5 .394 2.5 8.5 .296 6.0 13.0 .459 .453 7.0 8.0 .879 0.9 3.0 3.9 10.5 2.2 0.1 3.6 2.5 26.5
2 Russell Westbrook 2020-21 32 63 63 36.3 8.4 19.1 .441 1.3 4.1 .319 7.1 15.0 .474 .475 4.1 6.2 .651 1.7 9.8 11.5 11.7 1.3 0.4 4.9 2.9 22.2

 

Per 100 possessions

Rk Player Season Age G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% 2P 2PA 2P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS   ORtg DRtg
1 Michael Adams 1990-91 28 66 66 2346 10.1 25.6 .394 3.0 10.2 .296 7.1 15.4 .459 8.4 9.5 .879 1.0 3.6 4.6 12.5 2.6 0.1 4.3 2.9 31.5   113 115
2 Russell Westbrook 2020-21 32 63 63 2289 10.7 24.3 .441 1.7 5.2 .319 9.0 19.0 .474 5.2 7.9 .651 2.1 12.4 14.6 14.8 1.7 0.5 6.2 3.7 28.2   104 110

Advanced

Rk Player Season Age G MP PER TS% 3PAr FTr ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG%   OWS DWS WS WS/48   OBPM DBPM BPM VORP
1 Michael Adams 1990-91 28 66 2346 22.3 .530 .397 .372 2.1 8.8 5.2 39.4 2.6 0.1 12.7 28.5   5.8 0.4 6.3 .128   6.0 -0.7 5.3 4.3
2 Russell Westbrook 2020-21 32 63 2289 19.3 .508 .216 .326 4.9 28.5 16.7 48.6 1.7 0.8 18.3 30.5   0.3 3.0 3.3 .069   2.4 0.7 3.2 3.0

Even little Michael Adams, with the most inefficient and anomalous bullshit stats that I could recall in my lifetime was more efficient than Russell Westbrook. Do you know how fucked that is? And I want to like Westbrook. I really do. He plays his ass off. Every night he brings it. His energy and hustle are in the top 1% of NBA players. He's exciting as hell. When he comes off a screen at full speed heading toward the rim, it's terrifying and exhilarating. The guy is incredible. But he plays losing, stupid, inefficient basketball. He's the Wizard of Oz Scarecrow of the NBA. If he only had a fucking brain...

Don't like advanced metrics, has to use advanced metrics to prove point.....

SpicyUnluckyElk-size_restricted.gif

LOL!  Just kidding.  I forgot about Michael Adams.  He played for Les Bullets for awhile IIRC.

 

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immortal13

immortal13 4059

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4 hours ago, aggie08 said:

I'm sorry, but this stat is kind of useless on its own. 

You mean to tell me that, when the other team is missing enough shots to create ample uncontested defensive rebound opportunities, and his own teammates are hitting enough shots to get him to 10+ assists, they have a much better chance to win? No wai. 

Do you think he's not still chasing stats in games where he wasn't able to record a triple-double? Could they have stood a better chance to win those games had his focus been on playing smart, team-oriented basketball? Maybe, maybe not.

What's his win% in the playoffs when teams actually spend the time to game plan stopping what amounts to a very simple offense and rebounds aren't surrendered quite so easily?

This. I remember seeing his teammates backing away from a rebound so that Russ could get it. That's stat chasing

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