2020-2021 NBA Thread of Insanity

[ztejas 43,266]

20 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

🙄🙄🙄

LeBron is just insufferable sometimes. this quote isn't even about Steph, it's about the greatness of LeBron and the Herculean feat that he and his wildly superior team are about to attempt to pull off- winning one game against the 8 seeded Warriors. "and once we beat the real MVP in the play-in game, that's when even Michael and Magic had to admit that i was the greatest to ever do it."

What a fucking dweeb. If he can't get them through this play-in his GOAT contention is out the window. Getting assblasted by KD in the Finals again wouldn't help, either. 

[shadow_operative 15,932]

3 minutes ago, ztejas said:

What a fucking dweeb. If he can't get them through this play-in his GOAT contention is out the window. Getting assblasted by KD in the Finals again wouldn't help, either. 

i would love to see LeBron at the line with his team down 2 and no time left in the 4Q. chances that he misses the first FT? it's at least a 50% chance in my mind. in fact, i'd say that the chances that he misses both are equal to/greater than the chances that makes both. but yeah, he's definitely the best player ever. 

[Mitch Cumsteen 18,523]

3 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

🙄🙄🙄

LeBron is just insufferable sometimes. this quote isn't even about Steph, it's about the greatness of LeBron and the Herculean feat that he and his wildly superior team are about to attempt to pull off- winning one game against the 8 seeded Warriors. "and once we beat the real MVP in the play-in game, that's when even Michael and Magic had to admit that i was the greatest to ever do it."

It's probably even more about his trying to get Steph to the Lakers. It started with Lebron kissing his ass during all star weekend. He's like a pedophile grooming his victims. 

[aggie08 21,434]

3 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

🙄🙄🙄

LeBron is just insufferable sometimes. this quote isn't even about Steph, it's about the greatness of LeBron and the Herculean feat that he and his wildly superior team are about to attempt to pull off- winning one game against the 8 seeded Warriors. "and once we beat the real MVP in the play-in game, that's when even Michael and Magic had to admit that i was the greatest to ever do it."

Setting himself up to surpass last year's hardest ever title run! Dude's going to be insufferable is they overcome "his MVP" (on one of the 5 least talented rosters in the league), a young, inexperienced Phoenix (he's going to make a full time job out of blowing smoke up his friend, CP3's, ass if they meet), the actual MVP (missing its 2nd best player), the team with the best record in the league and the DPOY, and three superstar, two MVP Brooklyn.

Don't get me wrong: that would be one hell of a run. But he's going to let us know how impressive and daunting it is every step of the way.

Edited May 17, 2021 by aggie08

[shadow_operative 15,932]

1 minute ago, aggie08 said:

Setting himself up to surpass last year's hardest ever title run! Dude's going to be insufferable is they overcome "his MVP" (on one of the 5 least talented rosters in the league), a young, inexperienced Phoenix (he's going to make a full time job out of blowing smoke up his friend, CP3's, ass if they meet), the actual MVP (missing its 2nd best player), the team with the best record in the league, and three superstar, two MVP Brooklyn.

Don't get me wrong: that would be one hell of a run. But he's going up let us know how impressive and daunting it is every step of the way.

i'm generally not invested enough in pro sports to specifically root against a team- i like to follow/root for players, and any allegiances i have to an NBA or NFL team aren't strong enough for me to hate their rivals. that said, the only thing i'll be rooting for more than Jokic leading the Murray-less Nuggets to a title is seeing LeBron's Lakers lose- and the earlier the better.

[ztejas 43,266]

7 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

that said, the only thing i'll be rooting for more than Jokic leading the Murray-less Nuggets to a title is seeing LeBron's Lakers lose- and the earlier the better.

[aggie08 21,434]

18 hours ago, ztejas said:

Wallace is a HoFer in the way that Draymond should be a HoF lock but won't get treated as such. 

You don't think Dray will get treated as a HoF lock with a couple more high-level seasons? He's pretty much the poster child for how to impact the game without scoring. Plus he had a pretty decent college career. Though I would understand the fact that he's an abrasive asshole losing him some votes.

[conVINCEd 21,468]

Dray is a lock.  

[Mitch Cumsteen 18,523]

Draymond is much more impactful that Ben Wallace ever dreamed about. Forgetting his defensive impact, Draymond finished 4th in the league in assists this year. He's a dick but he's one of the smartest basketball players I've ever seen. There aren't that many guys who can be so impactful on both ends without having the ball.

I don't think Wallace really deserves to be in the hall. Shit, he wasn't even the best Wallace on his own team. Both Rasheed and Chauncey Billups seem more hof worthy than a guy who made you play 4 on 5 on offense. The other thing about Ben Wallace is the unspoken steroid stuff and how he magically dropped all that weight after getting a new contract. 

[ztejas 43,266]

1 hour ago, aggie08 said:

You don't think Dray will get treated as a HoF lock with a couple more high-level seasons? He's pretty much the poster child for how to impact the game without scoring. Plus he had a pretty decent college career. Though I would understand the fact that he's an abrasive asshole losing him some votes.

 

1 hour ago, conVINCEd said:

Dray is a lock.  

Bref has him at ~30% to make it.

59 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

Draymond is much more impactful that Ben Wallace ever dreamed about.

Nah. On offense - sure - but Dray was never as good of a defender. I mean Ben was as good as if not a better perimeter defender than Draymond and he was also arguably the greatest post-defender ever at his peak (certainly post-merger) while Dray was never anything but above average defending the post. Dray has never really been able to guard the 5. 

And 4 vs 5 on offense with Ben on the floor is a huge exaggeration. He was averaging something like 4 offensive boards a game in his prime and part of the reason his FG% was so low is because he had so many put-back attempts. (He certainly was an inexcusably poor FT shooter). He wasn't any worse than Rodman on offense and Rodman is a no-brainer hall member. 

59 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

I don't think Wallace really deserves to be in the hall. Shit, he wasn't even the best Wallace on his own team.

You and PB are out of your minds and thinking Rasheed was a better player is a weird take coming from someone who usually nails stuff like this.

Here's a good breakdown:

Again - he had more blocks than fouls and more steals than turnovers in his career. That alone in team impact is huge. 

Edited May 17, 2021 by ztejas

[conVINCEd 21,468]

Draymond is the most influential non-scorer in modern basketball.  Golden State cannot play like they played without him, and it produced multiple championships.  The bar for the basketball HOF is lower than other sports, and he’s a lock because of that.  If Ben Wallace is worthy of induction, Dray is first ballot.

[ztejas 43,266]

31 minutes ago, conVINCEd said:

Draymond is the most influential non-scorer in modern basketball.  Golden State cannot play like they played without him, and it produced multiple championships.  The bar for the basketball HOF is lower than other sports, and he’s a lock because of that.  If Ben Wallace is worthy of induction, Dray is first ballot.

I rate Dray about as high as anyone else but his legacy gets murky for me when you think about the teams he's played on. He got peak Curry and Klay and then got basically peak KD (I think Durant's actual peak is 2019 - present) to do his thing with. 

I mean do I REALLY think that the 2017 Warriors needed Draymond to win a championship? Probably not I guess. They of course needed him in 2015 and 2018. 2019 is another weird year where I actually thought Durant was their best defender for certain stretches and Dray's game had declined. This year has been a bit of a Renaissance for him.

Again - Dray is a HoFer for me just like Ben Wallace is. I don't think either are first ballot but sometimes it comes down to the year. Dray is maybe closer to first ballot - but Ben did very similar things with the Pistons - nearly helping them win back-to-back titles. 

(I also think the chances that GS has multiple titles without Durant are pretty low, actually)

Also - if we're going to talk about Big Ben's offense - we should probably acknowledge that around 2018 teams just quit guarding Draymond outside the paint. 

Edited May 18, 2021 by ztejas

[aggie08 21,434]

1 hour ago, ztejas said:

I mean Ben was as good as if not a better perimeter defender than Draymond and he was also arguably the greatest post-defender ever at his peak (certainly post-merger) while Dray was never anything but above average defending the post. Dray has never really been able to guard the 5. 

What qualifies as a post defender in today's NBA? Dray is leading the league--for like the 3rd or 4th time in his career--in holding opponents to the lowest FG% at the rim. They're the 5th ranked defense on a team without a single other noteworthy defender, and whose only two players above 6'7" missed a combined 44 games. He's played a ton of 5. The Warriors became the Warriors in 2014 because of his ability to guard the 5 in small-ball lineups, switch everything, and direct traffic. His defensive IQ and ability to be one step ahead is unmatched, thus negating physical limitations. I'm not sure what else he can do to be considered a more capable post defender in a league without Hakeem, TD, or Shaq.

Different eras, obviously. Ben Wallace was the perfect defender for his, and had more difficult post assignments.

I don't think we're far off in our opinions of Dray...just curious what your definition of "above average" is.

[ztejas 43,266]

23 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

What qualifies as a post defender in today's NBA? Dray is leading the league--for like the 3rd or 4th time in his career--in holding opponents to the lowest FG% at the rim. They're the 5th ranked defense on a team without a single other noteworthy defender, and whose only two players above 6'7" missed a combined 44 games. He's played a ton of 5. The Warriors became the Warriors in 2014 because of his ability to guard the 5 in small-ball lineups, switch everything, and direct traffic. His defensive IQ and ability to be one step ahead is unmatched, thus negating physical limitations. I'm not sure what else he can do to be considered a more capable post defender in a league without Hakeem, TD, or Shaq.

Different eras, obviously. Ben Wallace was the perfect defender for his, and had more difficult post assignments.

I don't think we're far off in our opinions of Dray...just curious what your definition of "above average" is.

Yeah the eras make this tough. I'm not saying Dray is a bad defender at the 5 - I just think around the rim in general Wallace was almost unparalleled. Dray is playing against completely different players at the 5 spot. 

Idk where you're pulling the "fg% at the rim" #s from and if you're able to go back to 2002-2006 but I'm guessing Wallace did the same thing while facing more attempts. He certainly blocked more shots (I think he stole the ball more too). 

Maybe the best way of putting it is there are assignments Ben had on defense that Draymond would struggle with. I don't think the opposite is true. At all. However I also think Wallace had the greatest 5 year defensive stretch ever so that isn't really a slight against Draymond. 

Here's a good graphic

Idk how much stock you want to put into 538's RAPTOR but that looks like 10 pretty good defenders on that list. And his playoff # was almost twice that of 2nd best in the most minutes played to boot.

Edited May 18, 2021 by ztejas

[SilasCoade 2,620]

Wallace in the HOF is laughable. Dray is borderline.

[shadow_operative 15,932]

Julius Randle has been getting a lot of MVP buzz (in terms of him getting votes, possibly finishing top 5 or 6) for a month or more now. i understand that playing in NY matters, as does his team's 4 seed in the playoffs, but still, it seems strange to me that everyone is singing his praises like this (rightfully so), yet nobody seems to have similar things to say about Domantas Sabonis.

 

 

[Reynolds Woodcock 4,669]

13 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

Julius Randle has been getting a lot of MVP buzz (in terms of him getting votes, possibly finishing top 5 or 6) for a month or more now. i understand that playing in NY matters, as does his team's 4 seed in the playoffs, but still, it seems strange to me that everyone is singing his praises like this (rightfully so), yet nobody seems to have similar things to say about Domantas Sabonis.

 

 

Because his team finished 4 games below .500 in the East?

[ztejas 43,266]

20 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

i understand that playing in NY matters, as does his team's 4 seed in the playoffs, but still, it seems strange to me that everyone is singing his praises like this (rightfully so), yet nobody seems to have similar things to say about Domantas Sabonis.

So you understand why his praises aren't being sung as much yet it's still strange to you? I mean I think you summed it up already.

[shadow_operative 15,932]

Sabonis has had a *much* better season than Randle. that's why it's strange to me. neither guy is going to come close to winning MVP. if they were, then sure, Randle's team having the better record matters. that's not what this is. for a month now, people it's been super en vogue to talk about what a great season Randle has had and how he "deserves some MVP votes." Sabonis hasn't had a great season? Sabonis doesn't deserve any votes? they play the same position in the same conference, and one is clearly having a better season than the other. i'm just saying, nobody is talking about Sabonis, and that's dumb. 

[SilasCoade 2,620]

I mean, @thenbacentral is talking about him apparently.

[Mitch Cumsteen 18,523]

3 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

Sabonis has had a *much* better season than Randle. that's why it's strange to me. neither guy is going to come close to winning MVP. if they were, then sure, Randle's team having the better record matters. that's not what this is. for a month now, people it's been super en vogue to talk about what a great season Randle has had and how he "deserves some MVP votes." Sabonis hasn't had a great season? Sabonis doesn't deserve any votes? they play the same position in the same conference, and one is clearly having a better season than the other. i'm just saying, nobody is talking about Sabonis, and that's dumb. 

The Knicks fans haven't had anything to cheer for in so long and either has their media contingent, which is the most influential and pervasive in the league. Also, the Pacers have been dysfunctional -- all the stuff with their coaching staff. It puts a big stink on everything over there. As much as a feel good story as the Knicks are being made out to be, the Pacers are the opposite. Just a different narrative.

With regard to this whole Ben Wallace HOF thing... I still don't think he's should be in. Great... he was maybe the best interior defender of his generation but that era was defined by a lack of true centers. Really, the only one in the league was Shaq or if you can count Yao Ming's oft injured ass, two of them -- we're talking post- Robinson, Ewing and Olajuwon. Wallace made those all-nba teams and all star teams mostly due to lack of competition. The best bigs in the league were all PF -- Duncan, KG, Dirk, Webber, Amare Stoudemire, Rasheed, etc. And Wallace played in the east when it was about as bereft of big men talent as it has ever been. The best guy he consistently played against was Jermaine O'Neal. Bruce Bowen was the best perimeter defender of his generation - won three rings, all NBA defensive team 8 times (5 -1st team, 3- 2nd) vs. Wallace's 6, actually led the league in 3pt% one season so he wasn't a complete zero on offense like Wallace was-- and nobody in their right mind is calling for him to be in the HoF. Rodman is a different story -- won two rings in Detroit and 3 more with the Bulls. He was also a more versatile defender - he could guard all five positions. 

Wallace left for Chicago and quit steroids (allegedly), and the Pistons promptly went to back to back Eastern Conference Finals after Larry Brown was replaced by that incompetent boob Flip Saunders. That video argues that if they had Ben Wallace, Lebron doesn't score however many straight points against them in the fourth quarter of that game, but to me that was more about Flip Saunders being a shitty coach. Hey, asshole, you may want to slide somebody over to help out on him and take your chances with Boobie Gibson in the corner instead of giving Lebron a layup line.

[Vic Mackey 46,936]

[Kermit 3,128]

39 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

My man Dejounte filling up at the free-throw line!

[Machinator 32,097]

All-NBA, All-Defense and All-Rookie: Zach Lowe names his 2021 award winners
 

Spoiler

This wild 2020-21 regular season is over -- and the play-in games are finally set. It's Russell Westbrook vs. Jayson Tatum on Tuesday, and Stephen Curry vs. LeBron James on Wednesday. Here's Part 2 of my official NBA awards ballot.

ALL-NBA
First team

G: Stephen Curry

G: Damian Lillard

F: Luka Doncic

F: Giannis Antetokounmpo

Center: Nikola Jokic

Second team

G: Chris Paul

G: Jimmy Butler

F: LeBron James

F: Kawhi Leonard

Center: Joel Embiid

Third team

G: Kyrie Irving

G: Bradley Beal

F: Julius Randle

F: Paul George

Center: Rudy Gobert

* There were three first-team locks: Curry, Antetokounmpo, and Jokic. One of Lillard and Doncic was a lock for the second guard spot.

That left one pesky forward spot. For most of the past two months, I had Leonard there: 25 points, 6.5 rebounds, and 5 assists on almost 50/40/90 shooting -- with borderline All-Defense work on the other end. I'd be fine with him on first-team.

But Leonard finished with a bit of a whimper: 20-plus points in only two of the Clippers' last 18 games. He ended up about 500 minutes short of Doncic.

I toyed with Butler, who had the league's most underappreciated great season. I have seen Butler left off a few All-NBA ballots, and I understand how hard these choices are. But every evaluation type -- traditional stats, advanced stats, eye test, importance to team -- suggest Butler has to be here. His advanced numbers are a hair ahead of Leonard's.

But Butler and Leonard logged almost the same amount of minutes.

The league made Doncic eligible at forward and guard. He was No. 5 on my MVP ballot, over Lillard. With that huge minutes edge, I decided to shift him to forward and get him on the first team -- so four of my MVP top five were here.

The one missing, of course, is Embiid, and it is fair to ask why I (and many voters) won't take advantage of the same positional leeway and slot Embiid into that forward spot.

I have always tried to remain at least semi-realistic with positions as long as the league is using positional designations. Embiid is a pure center. Doncic is more amorphous. He acts as the Mavs' point guard, which is why most voters start by considering him at guard; but by that logic, James -- listed at forward most of his career -- has been a "guard" all along. (The league made James eligible at guard last season, and again this time.)

Seven of the Mavs' eight most-used lineups featuring Doncic match him with two of Tim Hardaway Jr., Josh Richardson, and Jalen Brunson. What position is Doncic in those groups? On offense, Doncic is at least as much "point forward" as "point guard." He defends both guards and forwards -- whatever is convenient night-to-night.

It felt more honest slotting Doncic at forward than Embiid. Other voters might feel differently -- I have seen Embiid on several first-team ballots -- and that's fine. I had him No. 2 in MVP, so he's obviously worthy.

* Having Embiid as first-team forward would have vaulted Gobert to second team, and opened the third-team center spot for someone: Bam Adebayo, Domantas Sabonis, Clint Capela, Nikola Vucevic. That person would have replaced one of the last guards or forwards, and I thought all those guards/forwards were more deserving.

The league could have solved that issue in any number of ways, including by making Randle eligible at center. That is no more ridiculous -- and maybe less so -- than having Embiid eligible at forward. Randle played 39 minutes alongside Obi Toppin; who was the "center" there? A lot of opponents have centers defend Randle to neuter his post game. Does that count for anything?

Oh well. There were a lot of reasonable outcomes. None of them feels awesome. This is where I ended up.

* Four second-team spots were no-brainers. The fifth went to LeBron. It will be interesting to see whether LeBron makes All-NBA at all. I bet he will.

He played 45 of 72 games, and 1,504 minutes. James Harden played 44 games and 1,609 minutes. Harden had a majestic half-season in Brooklyn; he was mounting a legit MVP case before suffering hamstring issues, and was one of my last cuts.

Eight of those 44 games and 290 of those 1609 minutes marked Harden's final moments with the Houston Rockets. Harden put up numbers, but if you watched, you know he wasn't exactly going full throttle or playing in a way that evinced his normal interest level in whether the Rockets won or lost.

Those games matter. They mark a distinction between the 2020-21 seasons of LeBron and Harden. I also don't think it's unreasonable to give James -- provided he meets some threshold of games -- the "duh, we all know he's the best player, and he might have won MVP" benefit of the doubt.

That's the main reason he snags this second spot over Randle, despite Randle logging 1,100 (!) more minutes. I almost had Randle here, but deferred in the end to James' obvious and historic greatness. We can probably trust Randle's improved jumper will sustain into next season; we know we can trust James.

I ordered things this way knowing I would put Randle on the third team; he was not at risk of missing my ballot. I suspect some voters will slot him into that same pesky first-team forward spot I gave Doncic, and that's reasonable too.

One way or another, Randle should make All-NBA.

* With Gobert and Randle in, that left three spots for some combination of Irving, Beal, George, Harden, Donovan Mitchell, Devin Booker, Zion Williamson, Ben Simmons and Jayson Tatum. (Several other candidates, including Jrue Holiday, Zach LaVine, Trae Young, Mike Conley, Russell Westbrook, Jaylen Brown, and De'Aaron Fox got hard looks, but fell one mini-tier short of the above short list of "snubs.")

I had Simmons third-team last season. He was even better on defense this season -- third on my Defensive Player of the Year ballot -- and his inside-out passing is the main source of Philadelphia's catch-and-shoot diet. But he averaged 14 points, and for long stretches looked tentative attacking the rim.

Mitchell was probably on track for one guard spot before his ankle injury. His first dozen games were scattershot, but he played like a superstar for the final 30-plus. I almost had him here; he would be a fine choice.

Ditto for Booker, who probably would have made my ballot last season (over Simmons) had voters been allowed to factor in bubble games. But his advanced stats are well below these other guys, and most evidence labels Paul the No. 1 engine of Phoenix's incredible season. Booker was among the very last cuts.

The last one, though, was Williamson, and it was the toughest -- so much so that he was on my ballot up until the last 72 hours. He is undeniable with the ball: averaging 27 points on 61% shooting (!), plus almost four assists -- and more, once the Pelicans handed him the offense. He's a liability on defense, but so are some other candidates.

I initially had Williamson as one third-team forward, bumping George to guard (he's eligible at both positions) and eliminating one of Irving and Beal. The lottery-bound Pelicans have a worse record than Beal's play-in Wizards, but other measures of team quality -- point differential, whatever -- paint New Orleans as at least Washington's equal.

But, man, it's hard to ignore 31 points for a team that was often bereft of shooting around Beal. I'm not sure any player other than Curry received more attention -- more bodies around him, more limbs in his line of sight -- than Beal popping off a screen.

That the Wizards only took off once Russell Westbrook matched Beal's production (and sometimes exceeded it) is not an indictment of Beal's All-NBA case, or evidence that Westbrook is the real driver of Washington's success. It was proof of what this season's Wizards could be once Beal had a peer -- what laid dormant before then. The whole, healthy version of the Wizards has trended toward being a solid, winning team. The Pelicans were never that.

Westbrook's first 20-plus games just weren't good enough to crack All-NBA. (He was a net-negative in a fair number of those games.) The Wizards still ended with a better point differential in Beal-only minutes than in the Westbrook-only subset, per NBA.com.

* As for Irving, it felt wrong having zero Nets even if circumstances would have justified it. Irving has been the closest thing to a constant among Brooklyn's three stars, and was unstoppable: 27 points on 50/40/90 shooting. He was efficient in crunch time. On most nights, he competed on defense with active hands.

The Nets outscored opponents (barely, but still) when Irving played without both Harden and Kevin Durant.

* George enjoyed another fine two-way season, with career-best passing numbers.

That left Williamson as the final cut. But really, you can't go wrong with any of George, Beal, Irving, Williamson, Mitchell, Booker, and maybe Tatum for those final few spots.

ALL-DEFENSE
First team

G: Ben Simmons

G: Jimmy Butler

F: Draymond Green

F: Giannis Antetokounmpo

Center: Rudy Gobert

Second team

G: Marcus Smart

G: Jrue Holiday

F: Matisse Thybulle

F: Bam Adebayo

Center: Joel Embiid

* Gobert, Green, and Simmons went 1-2-3 on my Defensive Player of the Year ballot, so they were first-team locks.

* Antetokounmpo took a slight step back from last season, when he was a deserving Defensive Player of the Year. He didn't always handle switches cleanly as the Bucks diversified their schemes. But he remains one of the league's half-dozen best defenders -- a rim-protector and all-position wrecker who defends every play type well, per Second Spectrum.

* Butler is as stout as ever. He can defend all three perimeter positions, and hold his own against power forwards when the Heat ask it of him. He seems to love getting switched onto centers, and stonewalls all but the very best. He led the league in steals without gambling out of position. He's a good rebounder. He's rugged, unrelenting, unpleasant to play against.

* The most painful omissions (among many!) were Mikal Bridges, Capela, Leonard, George, and especially OG Anunoby. (Pascal Siakam had an underrated season flying around in the Toronto Raptors helter-skelter scheme, but Anunoby was better. Luguentz Dort was close behind too. )

Capela has the disadvantage of being listed only at center. There were games and even weeks when he was at least Embiid's equal. He was probably more consistent. Capela is relentless around the rim and on the glass. He logged about 300 more minutes than Embiid. He would be a fine choice for the second team (over Embiid and Jakob Poeltl).

But Embiid's peak is higher, and he was around that level for a large chunk of his minutes. A fully engaged Embiid is maybe the most intimidating and impactful defender in the game. Embiid is stronger than Gobert in the post, a little nimbler in space.

With a full minutes allotment, Embiid would have been right there for Defensive Player of the Year. Myles Turner was building a case before his injury, but I have him a tick below these other bigs -- mostly due to iffy rebounding.

* Adebayo played almost all his minutes at center, but the league kept him eligible at both center and forward. And, really, he guards everyone anyway. Adebayo is one of the league's 10 best defenders, so I'm taking advantage of that flexibility to reward him.

He is the league's best big-man switch defender. Adebayo switched on a league-high 511 ball screens this season, per Second Spectrum. Those switches bog down opposing offenses, dragging them into isolation mode. Adebayo defended 220 isolations -- second-most in the league. Opponents scored only 0.94 points per possession on those isos, per Second Spectrum.

When the Heat don't switch, they often trap -- another look enabled solely by Adebayo's speed and versatility. Imagine being a 6-3 point guard and having this dude flying at you, arms spread, legs churning? Egads.

Miami finished 9th in points allowed per possession despite blah defensive personnel around Adebayo and Butler. Adebayo is their keystone, just as Gobert is Utah's. Miami's entire scheme and ideology collapses without Adebayo.

* I can understand Phoenix and Toronto fans being frustrated Anunoby and Bridges came in behind Holiday, Thybulle, and Smart. I struggled with Thybulle.

He averages only 20 minutes. In some games, he was on the fringes of Philly's rotation. Thybulle doesn't play as much as Bridges and Anunoby because he is way worse on offense. Those guys score well into double digits and play great defense over 30-plus minutes per game. Players with that kind of heavy-minutes, two-way burden should have a leg up here on defensive specialists. The latter group -- Thybulle types -- should face a higher bar.

Whenever that bar is, Thybulle clears it. He might be the best perimeter defender in the world. He's one of the best perimeter defenders I've ever seen. Thybulle is some sort of phantom. He doesn't move in normal ways. He's in one spot, and then suddenly, without warning, he's somewhere else 15 feet away -- only not enough time has passed for any human to traverse 15 feet. Thybulle doesn't move. He apparates.

He averaged five combined blocks and steals per 36 minutes, an absolutely absurd rate. He is straight-up destructive to your emotional well-being and physical safety. Having Thybulle on the floor is like playing with 5½ defenders.

So, yes, the Sixers -- with the league's No. 2 defense -- get three guys. The Lakers, Jazz, and Knicks -- owners of the Nos. 1, 3, 4 defenses, respectively -- end up with only Gobert.

New York pulled that off with a collection of B-plus defenders moving on a string -- amplifying each other, transforming into more than the sum of their parts. Reggie Bullock and Nerlens Noel probably deserve the most consideration, but they just aren't as good as these guys.

I'm not sure how the Lakers maintained with their two best defenders -- James and Anthony Davis -- missing huge stretches. LeBron is still incredible defensively. He has a case for one of these second-team spots. Shooters underperformed their expected effective-field goal percentage -- based on the location of each shot and the nearest defender -- by seven percentage points when LeBron was the closest defender to them, per Second Spectrum. That was the third-biggest negative differential of any defender. (Thybulle was No. 2.)

(Another Laker who ranks near the top of every advanced defensive stat -- and received consideration: Alex Caruso.)

Holiday fares poorly by that measure, but digging in further, it's mostly because opposing shooters canned an unusual amount of well-contested 3s. A lot of that is luck. Holiday ranks much better by other advanced metrics. He is one of the most fearsome and respected defenders in the league -- the rare guy quick enough to snatch the ball from Irving, and strong enough to withstand Randle in the post.

I thought Smart was a tick worse than in his best seasons, but he still belongs.

Bridges' advanced metrics aren't as glowing as I had expected. But he's a menace, and he defends the best opposing perimeter player almost every night regardless of position.

Anunoby is one of the league's best all-position defenders. He doesn't just switch onto centers; he sometimes starts games defending them. But he missed 29 games, and he's kind of an (unfair) casualty of Toronto's strange season.

Other honorable mentions include: Dejounte Murray; Derrick White; Dillon Brooks; T.J. McConnell; Tatum; Dorian Finney-Smith; Royce O'Neale; Leonard; George; Robert Covington.

ALL-ROOKIE
First team

LaMelo Ball

Tyrese Haliburton

Anthony Edwards

Desmond Bane

Immanuel Quickley

Second team

Jae'Sean Tate

Isaiah Stewart

Saddiq Bey

Payton Pritchard

Facundo Campazzo

* No positions for All-Rookie!

* There were eight must-haves: the five on the first team, plus Tate, Stewart, and Bey. I wouldn't quibble with any combination of Tate, Stewart, Bey, Bane, and Quickley rounding out the first team after the top three on my Rookie of the Year ballot.

Bey led them in points. Tate led in many advanced stats. Stewart led in win shares, and was probably the best defender among them -- though Tate was rock-solid switching across almost every position.

Without much separating them statistically, I went with the two guys who put up their numbers on winning teams -- facing real stakes, real pressure.

Quickley quieted some over the past month, but he shot 39% from 3 and played crucial reserve minutes. His ultra-long 3s and running floater are two of the defining shots of this rookie class.

Bane averaged 9.3 points, below Bey and Tate, but Bane's sterling 43% mark on 3s stands out -- and made him a plug-and-play role player for a good team. He's a solid defender, and does enough off the bounce to keep the machine moving. He takes nothing off the table. You are never worried about him being exploited on either end.

* I had a half-dozen names penciled in for those last two spots at various points. I started out with Chuma Okeke and Jaden McDaniels, but Okeke hasn't played in three weeks, and McDaniels faded as the distant fifth option in the Timberwolves' starting five. He's a good multi-positional defender, and his shooting numbers (36% on 3s, 53% on 2s) are encouraging.

Tyrese Maxey finished strong, but he spent a lot of the season out of Philly's rotation. Ditto for Kenyon Martin Jr. in Houston. Cole Anthony might have made my ballot had he not missed so much time with injuries.

Isaac Okoro, Patrick Williams, and Theo Maledon finished second, fourth, and sixth, respectively, in minutes among rookies; Williams was on my midseason second-team.

Okoro has been more daring on offense lately, flashing off-the-catch aggression that bodes well. Williams is going to be good, and maybe really, really good. He profiles as a major plus defender with a silky jumper. But he and Okoro did so little offensively on a per-minute basis, it's hard to know what to make of their candidacies. I'd be fine with Williams on second-team, but I leaned toward two guys who did a little more heavy lifting for one decent team and one very good one.

* Campazzo is not a normal rookie, of course. He's an international star! But he's on the ballot, and his fill-in work as a starter down the stretch won him the nod. Campazzo is a pest on defense, an all-world passer, and he hit just enough 3s -- 35.2% -- to keep defenses honest.

Pritchard's role fluctuated, but he was helpful whenever Brad Stevens called on him. He's a good defender with a knack for steals, and shot 41% on a healthy number of 3s. Pritchard can run some backup point guard, and play alongside one or both of Marcus Smart and Kemba Walker.

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by Machinator

[shadow_operative 15,932]

Sabonis >>> PG 13

[Wulaw Horn 18,980]

35 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

Sabonis >>> PG 13

Agreed. But I bet playoff p gets more all nba votes. 

[shadow_operative 15,932]

[DonkeyCigars 144]

13 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

Wow, that's sad. Guarantee there is some mental illness involved there somehow, some way. 

[SilasCoade 2,620]

18 hours ago, Machinator said:

All-NBA, All-Defense and All-Rookie: Zach Lowe names his 2021 award winners
 

  Reveal hidden contents

This wild 2020-21 regular season is over -- and the play-in games are finally set. It's Russell Westbrook vs. Jayson Tatum on Tuesday, and Stephen Curry vs. LeBron James on Wednesday. Here's Part 2 of my official NBA awards ballot.

ALL-NBA
First team

G: Stephen Curry

G: Damian Lillard

F: Luka Doncic

F: Giannis Antetokounmpo

Center: Nikola Jokic

Second team

G: Chris Paul

G: Jimmy Butler

F: LeBron James

F: Kawhi Leonard

Center: Joel Embiid

Third team

G: Kyrie Irving

G: Bradley Beal

F: Julius Randle

F: Paul George

Center: Rudy Gobert

* There were three first-team locks: Curry, Antetokounmpo, and Jokic. One of Lillard and Doncic was a lock for the second guard spot.

That left one pesky forward spot. For most of the past two months, I had Leonard there: 25 points, 6.5 rebounds, and 5 assists on almost 50/40/90 shooting -- with borderline All-Defense work on the other end. I'd be fine with him on first-team.

But Leonard finished with a bit of a whimper: 20-plus points in only two of the Clippers' last 18 games. He ended up about 500 minutes short of Doncic.

I toyed with Butler, who had the league's most underappreciated great season. I have seen Butler left off a few All-NBA ballots, and I understand how hard these choices are. But every evaluation type -- traditional stats, advanced stats, eye test, importance to team -- suggest Butler has to be here. His advanced numbers are a hair ahead of Leonard's.

But Butler and Leonard logged almost the same amount of minutes.

The league made Doncic eligible at forward and guard. He was No. 5 on my MVP ballot, over Lillard. With that huge minutes edge, I decided to shift him to forward and get him on the first team -- so four of my MVP top five were here.

The one missing, of course, is Embiid, and it is fair to ask why I (and many voters) won't take advantage of the same positional leeway and slot Embiid into that forward spot.

I have always tried to remain at least semi-realistic with positions as long as the league is using positional designations. Embiid is a pure center. Doncic is more amorphous. He acts as the Mavs' point guard, which is why most voters start by considering him at guard; but by that logic, James -- listed at forward most of his career -- has been a "guard" all along. (The league made James eligible at guard last season, and again this time.)

Seven of the Mavs' eight most-used lineups featuring Doncic match him with two of Tim Hardaway Jr., Josh Richardson, and Jalen Brunson. What position is Doncic in those groups? On offense, Doncic is at least as much "point forward" as "point guard." He defends both guards and forwards -- whatever is convenient night-to-night.

It felt more honest slotting Doncic at forward than Embiid. Other voters might feel differently -- I have seen Embiid on several first-team ballots -- and that's fine. I had him No. 2 in MVP, so he's obviously worthy.

* Having Embiid as first-team forward would have vaulted Gobert to second team, and opened the third-team center spot for someone: Bam Adebayo, Domantas Sabonis, Clint Capela, Nikola Vucevic. That person would have replaced one of the last guards or forwards, and I thought all those guards/forwards were more deserving.

The league could have solved that issue in any number of ways, including by making Randle eligible at center. That is no more ridiculous -- and maybe less so -- than having Embiid eligible at forward. Randle played 39 minutes alongside Obi Toppin; who was the "center" there? A lot of opponents have centers defend Randle to neuter his post game. Does that count for anything?

Oh well. There were a lot of reasonable outcomes. None of them feels awesome. This is where I ended up.

* Four second-team spots were no-brainers. The fifth went to LeBron. It will be interesting to see whether LeBron makes All-NBA at all. I bet he will.

He played 45 of 72 games, and 1,504 minutes. James Harden played 44 games and 1,609 minutes. Harden had a majestic half-season in Brooklyn; he was mounting a legit MVP case before suffering hamstring issues, and was one of my last cuts.

Eight of those 44 games and 290 of those 1609 minutes marked Harden's final moments with the Houston Rockets. Harden put up numbers, but if you watched, you know he wasn't exactly going full throttle or playing in a way that evinced his normal interest level in whether the Rockets won or lost.

Those games matter. They mark a distinction between the 2020-21 seasons of LeBron and Harden. I also don't think it's unreasonable to give James -- provided he meets some threshold of games -- the "duh, we all know he's the best player, and he might have won MVP" benefit of the doubt.

That's the main reason he snags this second spot over Randle, despite Randle logging 1,100 (!) more minutes. I almost had Randle here, but deferred in the end to James' obvious and historic greatness. We can probably trust Randle's improved jumper will sustain into next season; we know we can trust James.

I ordered things this way knowing I would put Randle on the third team; he was not at risk of missing my ballot. I suspect some voters will slot him into that same pesky first-team forward spot I gave Doncic, and that's reasonable too.

One way or another, Randle should make All-NBA.

* With Gobert and Randle in, that left three spots for some combination of Irving, Beal, George, Harden, Donovan Mitchell, Devin Booker, Zion Williamson, Ben Simmons and Jayson Tatum. (Several other candidates, including Jrue Holiday, Zach LaVine, Trae Young, Mike Conley, Russell Westbrook, Jaylen Brown, and De'Aaron Fox got hard looks, but fell one mini-tier short of the above short list of "snubs.")

I had Simmons third-team last season. He was even better on defense this season -- third on my Defensive Player of the Year ballot -- and his inside-out passing is the main source of Philadelphia's catch-and-shoot diet. But he averaged 14 points, and for long stretches looked tentative attacking the rim.

Mitchell was probably on track for one guard spot before his ankle injury. His first dozen games were scattershot, but he played like a superstar for the final 30-plus. I almost had him here; he would be a fine choice.

Ditto for Booker, who probably would have made my ballot last season (over Simmons) had voters been allowed to factor in bubble games. But his advanced stats are well below these other guys, and most evidence labels Paul the No. 1 engine of Phoenix's incredible season. Booker was among the very last cuts.

The last one, though, was Williamson, and it was the toughest -- so much so that he was on my ballot up until the last 72 hours. He is undeniable with the ball: averaging 27 points on 61% shooting (!), plus almost four assists -- and more, once the Pelicans handed him the offense. He's a liability on defense, but so are some other candidates.

I initially had Williamson as one third-team forward, bumping George to guard (he's eligible at both positions) and eliminating one of Irving and Beal. The lottery-bound Pelicans have a worse record than Beal's play-in Wizards, but other measures of team quality -- point differential, whatever -- paint New Orleans as at least Washington's equal.

But, man, it's hard to ignore 31 points for a team that was often bereft of shooting around Beal. I'm not sure any player other than Curry received more attention -- more bodies around him, more limbs in his line of sight -- than Beal popping off a screen.

That the Wizards only took off once Russell Westbrook matched Beal's production (and sometimes exceeded it) is not an indictment of Beal's All-NBA case, or evidence that Westbrook is the real driver of Washington's success. It was proof of what this season's Wizards could be once Beal had a peer -- what laid dormant before then. The whole, healthy version of the Wizards has trended toward being a solid, winning team. The Pelicans were never that.

Westbrook's first 20-plus games just weren't good enough to crack All-NBA. (He was a net-negative in a fair number of those games.) The Wizards still ended with a better point differential in Beal-only minutes than in the Westbrook-only subset, per NBA.com.

* As for Irving, it felt wrong having zero Nets even if circumstances would have justified it. Irving has been the closest thing to a constant among Brooklyn's three stars, and was unstoppable: 27 points on 50/40/90 shooting. He was efficient in crunch time. On most nights, he competed on defense with active hands.

The Nets outscored opponents (barely, but still) when Irving played without both Harden and Kevin Durant.

* George enjoyed another fine two-way season, with career-best passing numbers.

That left Williamson as the final cut. But really, you can't go wrong with any of George, Beal, Irving, Williamson, Mitchell, Booker, and maybe Tatum for those final few spots.

ALL-DEFENSE
First team

G: Ben Simmons

G: Jimmy Butler

F: Draymond Green

F: Giannis Antetokounmpo

Center: Rudy Gobert

Second team

G: Marcus Smart

G: Jrue Holiday

F: Matisse Thybulle

F: Bam Adebayo

Center: Joel Embiid

* Gobert, Green, and Simmons went 1-2-3 on my Defensive Player of the Year ballot, so they were first-team locks.

* Antetokounmpo took a slight step back from last season, when he was a deserving Defensive Player of the Year. He didn't always handle switches cleanly as the Bucks diversified their schemes. But he remains one of the league's half-dozen best defenders -- a rim-protector and all-position wrecker who defends every play type well, per Second Spectrum.

* Butler is as stout as ever. He can defend all three perimeter positions, and hold his own against power forwards when the Heat ask it of him. He seems to love getting switched onto centers, and stonewalls all but the very best. He led the league in steals without gambling out of position. He's a good rebounder. He's rugged, unrelenting, unpleasant to play against.

* The most painful omissions (among many!) were Mikal Bridges, Capela, Leonard, George, and especially OG Anunoby. (Pascal Siakam had an underrated season flying around in the Toronto Raptors helter-skelter scheme, but Anunoby was better. Luguentz Dort was close behind too. )

Capela has the disadvantage of being listed only at center. There were games and even weeks when he was at least Embiid's equal. He was probably more consistent. Capela is relentless around the rim and on the glass. He logged about 300 more minutes than Embiid. He would be a fine choice for the second team (over Embiid and Jakob Poeltl).

But Embiid's peak is higher, and he was around that level for a large chunk of his minutes. A fully engaged Embiid is maybe the most intimidating and impactful defender in the game. Embiid is stronger than Gobert in the post, a little nimbler in space.

With a full minutes allotment, Embiid would have been right there for Defensive Player of the Year. Myles Turner was building a case before his injury, but I have him a tick below these other bigs -- mostly due to iffy rebounding.

* Adebayo played almost all his minutes at center, but the league kept him eligible at both center and forward. And, really, he guards everyone anyway. Adebayo is one of the league's 10 best defenders, so I'm taking advantage of that flexibility to reward him.

He is the league's best big-man switch defender. Adebayo switched on a league-high 511 ball screens this season, per Second Spectrum. Those switches bog down opposing offenses, dragging them into isolation mode. Adebayo defended 220 isolations -- second-most in the league. Opponents scored only 0.94 points per possession on those isos, per Second Spectrum.

When the Heat don't switch, they often trap -- another look enabled solely by Adebayo's speed and versatility. Imagine being a 6-3 point guard and having this dude flying at you, arms spread, legs churning? Egads.

Miami finished 9th in points allowed per possession despite blah defensive personnel around Adebayo and Butler. Adebayo is their keystone, just as Gobert is Utah's. Miami's entire scheme and ideology collapses without Adebayo.

* I can understand Phoenix and Toronto fans being frustrated Anunoby and Bridges came in behind Holiday, Thybulle, and Smart. I struggled with Thybulle.

He averages only 20 minutes. In some games, he was on the fringes of Philly's rotation. Thybulle doesn't play as much as Bridges and Anunoby because he is way worse on offense. Those guys score well into double digits and play great defense over 30-plus minutes per game. Players with that kind of heavy-minutes, two-way burden should have a leg up here on defensive specialists. The latter group -- Thybulle types -- should face a higher bar.

Whenever that bar is, Thybulle clears it. He might be the best perimeter defender in the world. He's one of the best perimeter defenders I've ever seen. Thybulle is some sort of phantom. He doesn't move in normal ways. He's in one spot, and then suddenly, without warning, he's somewhere else 15 feet away -- only not enough time has passed for any human to traverse 15 feet. Thybulle doesn't move. He apparates.

He averaged five combined blocks and steals per 36 minutes, an absolutely absurd rate. He is straight-up destructive to your emotional well-being and physical safety. Having Thybulle on the floor is like playing with 5½ defenders.

So, yes, the Sixers -- with the league's No. 2 defense -- get three guys. The Lakers, Jazz, and Knicks -- owners of the Nos. 1, 3, 4 defenses, respectively -- end up with only Gobert.

New York pulled that off with a collection of B-plus defenders moving on a string -- amplifying each other, transforming into more than the sum of their parts. Reggie Bullock and Nerlens Noel probably deserve the most consideration, but they just aren't as good as these guys.

I'm not sure how the Lakers maintained with their two best defenders -- James and Anthony Davis -- missing huge stretches. LeBron is still incredible defensively. He has a case for one of these second-team spots. Shooters underperformed their expected effective-field goal percentage -- based on the location of each shot and the nearest defender -- by seven percentage points when LeBron was the closest defender to them, per Second Spectrum. That was the third-biggest negative differential of any defender. (Thybulle was No. 2.)

(Another Laker who ranks near the top of every advanced defensive stat -- and received consideration: Alex Caruso.)

Holiday fares poorly by that measure, but digging in further, it's mostly because opposing shooters canned an unusual amount of well-contested 3s. A lot of that is luck. Holiday ranks much better by other advanced metrics. He is one of the most fearsome and respected defenders in the league -- the rare guy quick enough to snatch the ball from Irving, and strong enough to withstand Randle in the post.

I thought Smart was a tick worse than in his best seasons, but he still belongs.

Bridges' advanced metrics aren't as glowing as I had expected. But he's a menace, and he defends the best opposing perimeter player almost every night regardless of position.

Anunoby is one of the league's best all-position defenders. He doesn't just switch onto centers; he sometimes starts games defending them. But he missed 29 games, and he's kind of an (unfair) casualty of Toronto's strange season.

Other honorable mentions include: Dejounte Murray; Derrick White; Dillon Brooks; T.J. McConnell; Tatum; Dorian Finney-Smith; Royce O'Neale; Leonard; George; Robert Covington.

ALL-ROOKIE
First team

LaMelo Ball

Tyrese Haliburton

Anthony Edwards

Desmond Bane

Immanuel Quickley

Second team

Jae'Sean Tate

Isaiah Stewart

Saddiq Bey

Payton Pritchard

Facundo Campazzo

* No positions for All-Rookie!

* There were eight must-haves: the five on the first team, plus Tate, Stewart, and Bey. I wouldn't quibble with any combination of Tate, Stewart, Bey, Bane, and Quickley rounding out the first team after the top three on my Rookie of the Year ballot.

Bey led them in points. Tate led in many advanced stats. Stewart led in win shares, and was probably the best defender among them -- though Tate was rock-solid switching across almost every position.

Without much separating them statistically, I went with the two guys who put up their numbers on winning teams -- facing real stakes, real pressure.

Quickley quieted some over the past month, but he shot 39% from 3 and played crucial reserve minutes. His ultra-long 3s and running floater are two of the defining shots of this rookie class.

Bane averaged 9.3 points, below Bey and Tate, but Bane's sterling 43% mark on 3s stands out -- and made him a plug-and-play role player for a good team. He's a solid defender, and does enough off the bounce to keep the machine moving. He takes nothing off the table. You are never worried about him being exploited on either end.

* I had a half-dozen names penciled in for those last two spots at various points. I started out with Chuma Okeke and Jaden McDaniels, but Okeke hasn't played in three weeks, and McDaniels faded as the distant fifth option in the Timberwolves' starting five. He's a good multi-positional defender, and his shooting numbers (36% on 3s, 53% on 2s) are encouraging.

Tyrese Maxey finished strong, but he spent a lot of the season out of Philly's rotation. Ditto for Kenyon Martin Jr. in Houston. Cole Anthony might have made my ballot had he not missed so much time with injuries.

Isaac Okoro, Patrick Williams, and Theo Maledon finished second, fourth, and sixth, respectively, in minutes among rookies; Williams was on my midseason second-team.

Okoro has been more daring on offense lately, flashing off-the-catch aggression that bodes well. Williams is going to be good, and maybe really, really good. He profiles as a major plus defender with a silky jumper. But he and Okoro did so little offensively on a per-minute basis, it's hard to know what to make of their candidacies. I'd be fine with Williams on second-team, but I leaned toward two guys who did a little more heavy lifting for one decent team and one very good one.

* Campazzo is not a normal rookie, of course. He's an international star! But he's on the ballot, and his fill-in work as a starter down the stretch won him the nod. Campazzo is a pest on defense, an all-world passer, and he hit just enough 3s -- 35.2% -- to keep defenses honest.

Pritchard's role fluctuated, but he was helpful whenever Brad Stevens called on him. He's a good defender with a knack for steals, and shot 41% on a healthy number of 3s. Pritchard can run some backup point guard, and play alongside one or both of Marcus Smart and Kemba Walker.

 

I know KD missed a lot of time, but putting PG13 on any all-NBA team ahead of him is fucking ludicrous.

[conVINCEd 21,468]

14 minutes ago, Llogg said:

I know KD missed a lot of time, but putting PG13 on any all-NBA team ahead of him is fucking ludicrous.

Missing a lot of time and making an all-NBA team is a privilege only extended to Lebron.

[Wulaw Horn 18,980]

15 minutes ago, Llogg said:

I know KD missed a lot of time, but putting PG13 on any all-NBA team ahead of him is fucking ludicrous.

IT seems to be the consensus.  Simmons had it that way.  A couple of the other ringer guys that went public had it that way- I think Jackie McMullan had it that way on Simmons podcast etc.  I assume when I hear things 4 or 5 different ways that this will be how it shakes out- but maybe I will be pleasantly surprised and KD will make a team and Playoff P will be left off.  I started the thread on the shag 4 years ago about how I thought George was pretty severely overrated- so I was ahead of the curve on that one in planting my flag on Paul George is not a superstar. 

[shadow_operative 15,932]

PG 13 shouldn't be anywhere near the list. his inclusion is/would be lazy as hell. 

[Underdog 28,455]

Rude.

[Michael Knight 12,897]

On 5/17/2021 at 4:26 AM, shadow_operative said:

🙄🙄🙄

LeBron is just insufferable sometimes. this quote isn't even about Steph, it's about the greatness of LeBron and the Herculean feat that he and his wildly superior team are about to attempt to pull off- winning one game against the 8 seeded Warriors. "and once we beat the real MVP in the play-in game, that's when even Michael and Magic had to admit that i was the greatest to ever do it."

You sound dumber then Skip Bayless, are you Skip Bayless?

[shadow_operative 15,932]

number of times in NBA history that a team had averaged 13.5 3PM/gm before this season: 9. 

number of teams in 2021 that averaged 13.5 3PM/gm: 11. 

league average of 3PM/gm in 2011: 6.4 3PM

league average of 3PM/gm in 2021: 12.1 3PM

[52-80 19,091]

On 5/19/2021 at 2:34 AM, shadow_operative said:

How in the fuck

[Machinator 32,097]

 

[shadow_operative 15,932]

that's badass. we are slowly but surely catching up with the rest of the world when it comes to developing athletes. why it's acceptable for a piano prodigy to join Juliard at 8, or for a kid genius to go Harvard at 12, but not ok for a basketball prodigy to focus on his craft from a young age in this country is baffling. it's the reason that a tiny Carribean country with the population of Chicago is able to dominate the MLB and WBC. it's why we suck at soccer. good for Scoot Henderson. i hope a wave of other athletes follow his lead, and i hope that our pro leagues do everything they can to help and support these kids.

Edited May 21, 2021 by shadow_operative

[gsoda3 3,236]

1 minute ago, shadow_operative said:

that's badass. we are slowly but surely catching up with the rest of the world when it comes to developing athletes. [b]why it's acceptable for a piano prodigy to join Juliard at 8[/b], or for a kid genius to go Harvard at 12, but not ok for a basketball prodigy to focus on his craft makes zero goddamn sense. good for Scoot Henderson. 

unless things have changed you can't go to juilliard til high school and there are pretty high academic requirements. 

[shadow_operative 15,932]

3 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

unless things have changed you can't go to juilliard til high school and there are pretty high academic requirements. 

Juilliard accepted a six year old in 2016.

[gsoda3 3,236]

14 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

Juilliard accepted a six year old in 2016.

so they did.  i hadn't heard about that, but that was for their precollege program which is just a weekend piano lesson every week for the duration of the school year.  that'd be like being selected by john lucas into his program.

[Machinator 32,097]

Jordan Clarkson wins 6MOY.

[TommyGufano 6,021]

When did Ariza start looking like Ronny Turiaf?

[Brothahorn 10,085]

When did Ariza start looking like Ronny Turiaf?

During Covid

[d2o 1,602]

On 5/21/2021 at 11:55 AM, 52-80 said:

How in the fuck

Remember he was really big before so its not that unreasonable to think if he isnt playing he would get way out of shape fast.    Especially during COVID.   He's had a troubled life so its also not unreasonable that trouble would find him if he wasnt playing either.

[d2o 1,602]

On 5/21/2021 at 2:10 PM, shadow_operative said:

that's badass. we are slowly but surely catching up with the rest of the world when it comes to developing athletes. why it's acceptable for a piano prodigy to join Juliard at 8, or for a kid genius to go Harvard at 12, but not ok for a basketball prodigy to focus on his craft from a young age in this country is baffling. it's the reason that a tiny Carribean country with the population of Chicago is able to dominate the MLB and WBC. it's why we suck at soccer. good for Scoot Henderson. i hope a wave of other athletes follow his lead, and i hope that our pro leagues do everything they can to help and support these kids.

Yeah, I have no issue with him making the jump.    I just hope that someone in his circle is making provisions for an education/skill trade if he doesn't make it to the league.    I'd really hope that would be part of the league's compensation for those players honestly.

[shadow_operative 15,932]

21 minutes ago, d2o said:

Remember he was really big before so its not that unreasonable to think if he isnt playing he would get way out of shape fast.    Especially during COVID.   He's had a troubled life so its also not unreasonable that trouble would find him if he wasnt playing either.

and if he has mental health issues (which it appears that he does), there are a ton of medications, particularly mood stabilizers, which can cause crazy weight gain and pronounced gynocomastia. 

[Machinator 32,097]

Randle wins MIP.

[d2o 1,602]

27 minutes ago, Machinator said:

Randle wins MIP.

LOL @ Wiggins getting a 3rd place vote

 

[Machinator 32,097]