Managing property for wild game hunting

[Reagan1k 3024]

My feelings won’t be hurt if this gets shit-canned, but the discussion is somewhat different than the “Hunting 20XX” threads that are created every year, and good ideas are lost in subsequent yearly threads.

I’m particularly interested in this more and more vs. the harvest of animals and would like to contribute and read other contributions.

What are your experiences, product reviews, and tips on things like....

Managing for whitetail horn development, quail populations, etc.

Feeders, feeding, feed suppliers, and food plots

Blinds, tripods, tree-stands, etc.

Camp set-ups, trailers, storage, water tanks

MLD, low fence, high fence, large/small tracts

Culling, buck/doe ratio, harvest amounts per acre.

Apps for hunter communication, maps, topography 

Game cameras and scouting

Hope to add my thoughts shortly.  So much of my “hunting” is now more management than actually pursuing game, I hope this topic can be a permanent clearinghouse for a lot of information.

 

 

Edited December 25, 2020 by Reagan1k

[deadshank 24653]

I like the topic.  A lot to unravel.  

[davidg 4038]

Someone layout the pro and cons of wildlife management vs cattle operation for property tax purposes.   I’ll hang up now and listen.

[Reagan1k 3024]

1 hour ago, deadshank said:

I like the topic.  A lot to unravel.  

Deer Management for big bucks: 

“Big” should be removed from the vocabulary and replaced with “Mature” in my opinion.    Big is relative-maturity not so much. Maturity equals full potential and that’s all one can ask from a given property. 

The #1 factor is time (age).  Regardless of the area one hunts, until you allow a breeding year’s worth of bucks to reach 5-6 years old, you don’t even know what the land’s potential is.

If you stop shooting “big” bucks and only shoot mature bucks, the dynamic shifts.  The laws of nature and Ford bumpers dictate that a smaller number of bucks make it through to the next year- year after year.   Add hunting to the mix and most hunters don’t have a chance at a truly mature buck because they shot the “survivors” at 3-4 yrs because the were “big”.

If you want the largest horns a property can produce, you MUST give that property the time to show it and that only happens when you allow the bucks to live long enough to display that potential.

Pitfalls like uncooperative neighbors, poachers, etc. abound, but time is the one factor that must be allowed for in order to experience the potential of a land tract.

 I’ve seen low fenced “Hill County” land that wouldn’t produce a single 120” buck 20 years ago now crank out 140-150” deer annually and the occasional +160”.  The only change is that the “rules” went from 8 point or better to +5 years or better.  The land and deer didn’t change.  What changed was the mindset of the hunters and the methodology of the annual harvest.

It takes a few years to stack up a living population of 5 and 6 year old deer, but once you get there, it is sustainable.  

[CHIEF 5088]

1 hour ago, Reagan1k said:

Deer Management for big bucks: 

“Big” should be removed from the vocabulary and replaced with “Mature” in my opinion.    Big is relative-maturity not so much. Maturity equals full potential and that’s all one can ask from a given property. 

The #1 factor is time (age).  Regardless of the area one hunts, until you allow a breeding year’s worth of bucks to reach 5-6 years old, you don’t even know what the land’s potential is.

If you stop shooting “big” bucks and only shoot mature bucks, the dynamic shifts.  The laws of nature and Ford bumpers dictate that a smaller number of bucks make it through to the next year- year after year.   Add hunting to the mix and most hunters don’t have a chance at a truly mature buck because they shot the “survivors” at 3-4 yrs because the were “big”.

If you want the largest horns a property can produce, you MUST give that property the time to show it and that only happens when you allow the bucks to live long enough to display that potential.

Pitfalls like uncooperative neighbors, poachers, etc. abound, but time is the one factor that must be allowed for in order to experience the potential of a land tract.

 I’ve seen low fenced “Hill County” land that wouldn’t produce a single 120” buck 20 years ago now crank out 140-150” deer annually and the occasional +160”.  The only change is that the “rules” went from 8 point or better to +5 years or better.  The land and deer didn’t change.  What changed was the mindset of the hunters and the methodology of the annual harvest.

It takes a few years to stack up a living population of 5 and 6 year old deer, but once you get there, it is sustainable.  

100% this. One of the first high fence ranches, in Texas, was a 500 acre place some friends of ours owned in Bosque County, west of Clifton, we lived about 5-6 miles away. They high fenced it about 35 years ago. They removed all of the local genetics, and hauled in Northern deer before it was illegal (or at least before TPWD realized you had to stay on top of high fenced operations). However, there was one native buck that they left. At 5 1/2 he didn't have the body mass of the northern deer, not as heavy horned, but he still scored over 200" as a non-typical with 19 points. Our area, where I live, is a bedroom community to DFW where there is little to no hunting pressure, there are multiple 200" bucks that have been shot here, because there is no hunting pressure. A buddy of mine shot this buck with a bow, in his back yard behind the KFC in Granbury:

This buck bedded each night at CHIEF Jr's. junior high, at the time. I almost hit him on the night he was killed. Ironically, on my way back from the deer lease. The rut was on and he was chasing a doe across HWY 4, I told CHIEF Jr. he was bigger than the buck we had contemplated shooting at the lease earlier that day. That is an old wrinkly motherfucker. He also wasn't the biggest deer we had seen at his school.

CHIEF

Edited December 26, 2020 by CHIEF

[Reagan1k 3024]

Protein:      I've used Bode Feed, Lyssy & Eckel, and Llano Feed and Supply.

We view it as purely supplemental and free feed.  We don't have the budget to be a primary food source due to the acreage we'd need to cover. 

Free feed makes more sense for us. That way, when they don't want it, the feed isn't wasted on a repeating cycle.

Ramping up cotton seed this year - Experimented this year.

We don't hunt our protein feeder areas and don't feed that in areas we do hunt.

Protein starts on or about January 15th and goes through October. 

[CHIEF 5088]

41 minutes ago, Reagan1k said:

Protein:      I've used Bode Feed, Lyssy & Eckel, and Llano Feed and Supply.

We view it as purely supplemental and free feed.  We don't have the budget to be a primary food source due to the acreage we'd need to cover. 

Free feed makes more sense for us. That way, when they don't want it, the feed isn't wasted on a repeating cycle.

Ramping up cotton seed this year - Experimented this year.

We don't hunt our protein feeder areas and don't feed that in areas we do hunt.

Protein starts on or about January 15th and goes through October. 

I've always heard that cottonseed can render bucks sterile, and cause does to abort fetuses. It's cheap, and high protein, but I've heard more bad than good. Probably from management programs not pulling it soon enough, or having a disruption in supply.

https://springcreekoutdoors.com/blog/cottonseed-the-good-the-bad/

CHIEF

Edited December 27, 2020 by CHIEF

[cactusflinthead 27598]

What's the juniper cover like?

It's been a while since I read up on it, but they are not great once they're covering too much.

 

[Reagan1k 3024]

25 minutes ago, CHIEF said:

I've always heard that cottonseed can render bucks sterile, and cause does to abort fetuses. It's cheap, and high protein, but I've heard more bad than good. Probably from management programs not pulling it soon enough, or having a disruption in supply.

https://springcreekoutdoors.com/blog/cottonseed-the-good-the-bad/

CHIEF

Yeah-  it has some negatives.  What we are doing is adding some wire cottonseed feeders inside feeder pens where we have regular spin feeders.  This year we filled a few of them through May and then let them play out to avoid the sterilization issue.

We have a few areas that are remote and we know a lot of deer don’t travel to the central protein feeders (based on cameras and visuals) so we are using cotton seed in those areas for a little boost.  Nothing heavy- just a few months worth to supplement. 

[Reagan1k 3024]

25 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

What's the juniper cover like?

It's been a while since I read up on it, but they are not great once they're covering too much.

 

From personal observations I hate them in the macro sense.  They provide some good cover but they suck a ton of water out of the ground and choke out other beneficial vegetation.  We’ve started cutting them away from our oaks as we can to keep them from crowding out the mast production.  

[cactusflinthead 27598]

Bingo. The threshold for significant forage loss is pretty low iirc. 

You ever tried naturalizing some of the legumes? Clover and vetch can get a foothold if they get a chance to set seeds.

[Reagan1k 3024]

23 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

You ever tried naturalizing some of the legumes? Clover and vetch can get a foothold if they get a chance to set seeds.

I'm sure the cattle would love to see me hauling seed out for food plots.  That's a non-starter unless I hit that lottery tonight and can move the cattle off after securing title.

Our place is pretty diverse in terms of cover, native food sources, and terrain so we have areas that are thick the juniper/cedar and other areas where there is none.  I've seen some areas where its basically a waste land other than green blobs everywhere and that's no bueno for game.

[cactusflinthead 27598]

Well, you can still get a foothold if you can throw up some panels.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/nrcs144p2_002111.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjs-sGGne3tAhU5AZ0JHRUuA48QFjAKegQIHRAC&usg=AOvVaw2hy0Tclkh4FMAtNa0M54Sl

Nrcs pdf on food plots. 

[deadshank 24653]

We feed 20% protein pretty much year round unless their is an increased rain pattern; which means we’ve been feeding a lot of protein lately.  The deer are crushing it right now.  
 

Of course, the protein feeders are filled and / or topped off in time for the end of the rut to help the plumb wore out bucks.

We will spring for the extra money to fill each feeder with 200 lbs of protein with the de-wormer component in it to help the deer combat worms in their guts and maximize the nutrition yield.

 

[deadshank 24653]

Six 1/2 ton feeders in pens.   

[deadshank 24653]

When times are good

[deadshank 24653]

And when they’re bad

[686 3449]

I’ll play. We’re on 200 acres, low fence in Lampasas county. Our place was the original Storm ranch (as in Storm’s hamburgers in burnet and lampasas). It was in serious disrepair when my folks bought it 6 years ago. My dad got with the county Ag extension office and we’ve been under contract to remove cedars and reveg with Klein grass the last few years on about 100 acres. The Extension money barely pays for the diesel and some equipment maintenance but it’s something. We’ve taken down over 10,000 cedars easily. We’ve used skid steers with a grapple bucket and a dozer mostly.

My dad made his own custom root grubber from grader blade:




On a kick ass day I can take down 500 cedars with this machine:



The cedar was so thick in the back that I found a bus completely hidden in a thicket while tracking a deer. The previous owners hadn’t said anything about it, they might not have even known it was there.




The hardest part of the clearing is burning. We’ve probably set over 100 burn piles off. The next season after we burn a pile I’ll spread the ash and plow and seed. The spot where this pile was is now a food plot:





We’re almost done with the “initial” clearing.

A ton more forage has sprung up in the areas where cedar was removed, and an old seasonal spring started flowing again.

We have some useable soil in a few areas and I’ve been doing fall food plots for about 5 years. I’ll post more on food plots and wildlife impacts later.

[686 3449]

Someone layout the pro and cons of wildlife management vs cattle operation for property tax purposes.   I’ll hang up now and listen.

From what I’ve seen, both exemption paths are doable, it really just depends on the ecology of the tract and you want to do with the property. The way we’re managing our place, I’m confident we could have changed from Ag (cattle/grazing/hay production) to wildlife without much additional effort to satisfy wildlife requirements (maybe a few bird boxes and reveg with native grasses in lieu of Klein; etc.). The dilemma is messing with grass/cattle or not. If our place wasn’t so setup for cattle, we might have changed to wildlife, but we’ve got some good sized grass pastures that are setup decently for grazing, and rotational grazing/getting the grass down will actually help forb production/antler growth for whitetail (per King ranch studies). Additionally, with beef prices the way they are, a low maintenance cow/calf operation can offset some expenses.

If we didn’t have improved grass pastures with some cross fencing, plenty of stock tanks for water, a corral, etc.; we’d have leaned toward wildlife a lot more.

[BabaYaga 15298]

We're in the thick of this as well, so this is close to home.  What we've done prior to our leased hunters

• 650+ acres
• Cabin we stay at build by g-father years back
• Wasn't really managed prior as it was family land and primarily recreational with grazing cattle via a family lease.
• Existing protein (Lamco) feeder
• 4 fiberglass Dillon blinds
• 5 corn feeders of various types, all in working condition - my two favorite are the "hang 'em high" tripod feeders.  The others are basic All Season 350# corn feeders

Number one thing before all others is water.  No water, everything else it moot.  If you have tanks that stay full, then you can go up from there.  If not, this has to be addressed.  Creeks that run dry, tanks that go dry, and you will have trouble.  

We have a decent amount of pressure around us, so our lack of hunting has been beneficial as many big boys hide out and seek refuge.  As I don't have the time to get it back in shape, I vetted a group of bow-hunters (4).  Charged them a slightly below market rate, and turned them loose as "stewards" of the land.  

They immediately started scouting and categorizing all the deer.  Getting an idea via their game cams of what is out there so they can track age and size.  Tracking movement patterns and areas of recurring activity to identify where to set up or move blinds to.

Protein feeding and corn is of course on them, and they are feeding protein pretty hard - with strong results.  It's a lot of time and effort and a never-ending process.  For me, I had to go this route and I stay in constant contact with the guys.  They all have little kids, families, etc. and understand this is a long-term investment.  They are not just a bunch of beer drinking good 'ol boys that shoot the first pair on antlers they see.  

They also kill a shit load of ducks that I always just ignored.  We have quail and turkey as well which they pay for as well.  We do no active management for either such as habitat, etc.  

We communicate well, but also use the app "HuntStand" to share sightings, kills, trails, feeders, etc.  All of it.  We are all on it and everyone logs their activities so we have a better idea of movement, numbers, etc.  

Hope this helps.  

[deadshank 24653]

We lease +/- 2600 low-fenced acres in the brushy south side of Uvalde County with 4 miles of Frio frontage.  
 

5 members, 14 blinds (7 TX Wildlife Supply and 7 home spun), 18 corn broadcasters, 6 protein pens. 
 

We took the joint over at the end of a horrible drought.  The previous group shot anything that moved including some really nice 160-170 class 3.5 year olds.  It was so bad grasshoppers were scared to hop. 
 

We’ve had the place for 8 years and started MLDP 3 after the first year.  Fortunately, it started to rain again and the survival rate went up and we shot a boat load of inferior deer and passed on the the bucks with superior antlers.   
 

Now we are seeing positive results and taking some really nice, mature bucks while still shooting the rag horns and doe to meet the biologist’s requirements for the annual helicopter survey.  

[hornmpa96 2618]

22 hours ago, deadshank said:

We will spring for the extra money to fill each feeder with 200 lbs of protein with the de-wormer component in it to help the deer combat worms in their guts and maximize the nutrition yield.

 

When you  put out out the protein with the de-wormer, is it mixed with other protein feed in the feeder or is that the only feed in the feeder for that time?

Are you buying the de-wormer protein feed in bags or bulk?

I’ve been considering adding this to the protein regimen this year.

[686 3449]

Number one thing before all others is water.  No water, everything else it moot.  If you have tanks that stay full, then you can go up from there.  If not, this has to be addressed.  Creeks that run dry, tanks that go dry, and you will have trouble.    

This can’t be overstated.

[deadshank 24653]

1 hour ago, hornmpa96 said:

When you  put out out the protein with the de-wormer, is it mixed with other protein feed in the feeder or is that the only feed in the feeder for that time?

Are you buying the de-wormer protein feed in bags or bulk?

I’ve been considering adding this to the protein regimen this year.

The de-wormer is the first 4 bags we put in the feeder.  We get the product at Lyssy-Eckel.  

[BabaYaga 15298]

Our hunters vetted us as well (which was another reason I liked them) and did YOY Google Earth searches of the property to see if any of the tanks/creeks ever ran dry.  You can do the same if unknown.  If they do, invest you initial time/money into a well and catch tank/trough.  It's not an insurmountable issue, but needs to be addressed if you are going to start establishing movement patterns.

 

You can even get it done on the cheap with things like this.

 

 

[fattyflattie 4639]

8 hours ago, deadshank said:

We lease +/- 2600 low-fenced acres in the brushy south side of Uvalde County with 4 miles of Frio frontage.  
 

5 members, 14 blinds (7 TX Wildlife Supply and 7 home spun), 18 corn broadcasters, 6 protein pens. 

I’ve always been curious to your setup.  Place looks, and sounds great.

[686 3449]

Regarding food plotting:

After doing some exploratory digging to ascertain soil depth, I moldboard plowed the areas I wanted to plot. These were old pastures. Deep plowing isn’t a necessity, but I wanted to try it and learn some of the old ways.







When my folks were under contract buying this place, I had taken some soil samples and sent in for analysis to see what they’d need amendment wise for fertility. Luckily, one ton of fertilizer from the local feed store fixed me up, so not a big hurdle.

I had a fab shop build me a cultipacker and I assembled a get-r-dun all-in-one arrangement for planting:





I like Turner Seed Fall Deer Mix, but It’s a little hard to get, so this year I just planted winter wheat, oats, cereal rye, and clover. I usually mix in fertilizer with my seed when planting 50-50 to dilute the seed and add a little kick every year.

I usually plant in October. The deer really have taken to the plots. I haven’t done exclusion fencing around the plots in years past, but I will probably start in some areas going forward to help the plots get going before letting the deer in. These pics are from February a few years back. The winter-early spring nutrition supplied by plots is very helpful.








Once the plots bolt in late spring would be a good time to turn cattle in on it, this is an April pic:



The deer and turkeys use these plots a lot, it’s nice to watch them graze on something you planted. We have two plots you can watch from the porch of the house.

I’ll post on feeders next.

[686 3449]

A couple other note on pasture management:

Our pastures are a little wider/lacking in occasional trees than optimal for my taste/for deer cover and we’ve been planting a dozen or so every year. Cedar elms have the highest survival rate. At some point I’d like to run an irrigation line from the well down to a close by field and put in a few dozen fruit trees. Great wildlife food and I like tending fruit trees as well. Anna and Ein Shermer are good varietals for Texas that I’ve grown at the house.




My dad hates prickly pear. He/we went on a spraying blitz a few years back and really knocked the pear way down. The upside is obviously improved grazing, the downside is, in our area, big pear plants are quail habitat.

Side note (warning, graphic): we were clearing some land about 30 years ago, my dad was loading a huge prickly pear plant into a dump truck with a skid steer loader, and didn’t level the bucket fast enough as he was raising it, and the pear fell over the back of the bucket and into the cab on him. It was a fucking horror show. It took me and two other guys several minutes to pull the cactus out of the cab and off him. His arms were pinned down by the pear. So many needles it was just insane. He had one go in the top of his knee and come out under the kneecap. So, I can excuse his hatred of the pear.

[deadshank 24653]

Regarding open space / cover ratio for WTD, I have always read and been told by biologists that 60-65% cover : 35-40% open is the best for south Texas.   Also, keep the first 200 yards around rivers and other bodies of water in cover for loafing areas.

Our “problem” is we go from thick brush to rural and unexplored Cambodia with only one small 4 -5 acre open area (see pic).  We maintain that area and have 2 corn broadcasters and protein pen (off to the side in cover) and a blind.   It is amazing the amount of deer that will hang out in the field and on the edges of it.

In the picture you can see the blind, one of the feeders and the open area in the background.  All of the limb drop is from me pruning all of the trees back so we could shred around the trees in the semi-open area more efficiently.

We are contemplating renting a bulldozer and carving out a few more open areas and doing some brush sculpting for quail.  

Edited December 29, 2020 by deadshank

[686 3449]

Some thoughts on feeders and results from our management efforts. These are all just one man’s opinion, based on my experiences.

I grew up in the 1980’s hunting on low fence Central Texas deer leases. We’d fill corn spinners sometime in the summer/Labor Day and then top off a few times during the season and let the feeders go dry after the season. We were on places with little to no tillable dirt, and my family didn’t know enough about farming even if there was some to try and food plot. We almost never paid for leases and got on by doing heavy equipment or construction work. I didn’t shoot a buck for probably 10 years of hunting, only does. Mostly because I never saw mature bucks, and even a kid I wasn’t interested in shooting little fork bucks. We never saw Turkeys either.

Fast forward and my folks bought their own place in 2006, and I wanted to try and increase the antler inches on the little low fence ranch (100ac) and bought my first protein feeder. It was a double barrel free choice feeder; about 700lbs capacity.




I learned from trail cameras that the deer could drain this feeder in 10 days in the summertime and they would “camp out” on this feeder at night even though we were running three other corn spinners and eventually a second small protein feeder.

So the issues in my mind were:

A. I don’t make it to the ranch often enough to keep free choice feeders from running dry unless they are big

B. I’m feeding free range deer here, and we have at least one little shit neighbor that will shoot anything that crosses the fence; so I’d like to keep the expenses reasonable

I didn’t have a good solution, so I would feed as my budget allowed and usually let the feeders run dry in Jan-Feb. I did see results though; we only saw 8 pointers for years, but finally in year 5, I got a nice 10 pointer.



My folks sold that ranch that year and a few years later bought the 200ac place in Lampasas.

We’ve been running 3 corn spinner setups and two protein feeder setups in Lampasas. I bought a 1300lb timed protein feeder. This is a Krivoman feeder with The Hammer timed unit; basically a gate valve that I can control the open/close times.





I usually only leave the valve open ~10 minutes morning and evening, which would help ration the protein out and stop deer “camping out” on the feeder at night. As you can see, the bucks figured it out and would loiter waiting for the valve to open. We only had 8 pointers on camera the first year, but we have had a few 10 pointers ever since.

About 4 years ago I wanted to build two bigger times protein setups, so I had a fab shop make these up for me.




I used The Hammer again, and have been very happy with them. These will hold 3000lbs each, so we only have to fill a few times a year, and try to run them year-round. The only time I may let them run dry is when the pasture conditions are good and the deer are in the food plots (they prefer the food plots to protein). I designed these so that they are loadable both by bulk trailer and from the bed rail of a pickup truck. We have bulk delivery available from a local feed store, but sometimes I’ll put 30 bags of feed in the bed of my truck and load it to save a little money and boost my ego.

Other than the timed protein feeders, we run three corn spinners, two 55 gallon drums with “The Timer” and solar panels, and one ~350lb All Seasons unit. All Seasons makes first class feeders, and I really like the unit, I just wish I’d gotten a bigger one. The Timer is also a great unit, and feeder maintenance is a lot less for me now than it was years ago.

Between the food plots, brush management, and feeding, our bucks have added noticeable points and inches. We have moderate hunting pressure from adjacent properties, but this is another aspect where I think the timed protein and food plots are helping - the loiter time for deer in our pastures is a long time. The longer they’re in our field, the less likely they are to get shot by the neighbors; and I know a lot of deer that hit our feeders bed down over the fence.

Here’s a couple bucks from the last few years.









We’ve got a nice ~4 year old this year with several splits and another ~4 yr old mainframe 10 with symmetrical drop tines. They’ll be nice if they make it to next year. I’m really looking forward to the next few generations. I think Dr. Deer says it takes 3-4 generations living at a consistently higher nutritional plane to really start to see the genetic potential, these bucks we’re probably born the first year after we started managing.








As stated by Reagan1k above, I’ve also gotten more into the management aspect and enjoy watching the game grow more than shooting it.

[Both Tacos 1806]

Someone layout the pro and cons of wildlife management vs cattle operation for property tax purposes.   I’ll hang up now and listen.

Pro is that you don't have the expense of running a cattle operation and you get the same type of ag exemption on property taxes.

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4976]

Lots of the focus in here is on nutrition, which is good when managing for deer. Really, all you need to do for deer is feed them well and harvest appropriate ratios of appropriately aged deer. But I would like to see more discussion of habitat, especially when managing for other game. I can't tell you how many times I've talked to people trying to manage for quail without doing anything about the coastal and bahia grass. If you don't get the habitat right for many species of game then you are just pissing in the wind.

[deadshank 24653]

@686 

We have never considered or used the timers on our protein feeders.   It seems the protein at our place will last a good while under normal range conditions.  Our game cameras will show no deer for days (or nights) and then they appear.  We have never seen any “campers.”

Im not saying we are superior range managers    We pray for rain and have zero food plots.   Of course now that we are in a drought the deer are really on the pellets.  
 

 

[deadshank 24653]

For general consumption, this is a pretty good field guide for plants that are important to WTD and, to a lesser extent, other game animals.  It goes over general history, general goals, IDs plants and rates them as first, second and third choice food sources for WTD.  

[686 3449]

[mention=2146]686[/mention] 
We have never considered or used the timers on our protein feeders.   It seems the protein at our place will last a good while under normal range conditions.  Our game cameras will show no deer for days (or nights) and then they appear.  We have never seen any “campers.”

Im not saying we are superior range managers    We pray for rain and have zero food plots.   Of course now that we are in a drought the deer are really on the pellets.  
 
 

From what I’ve seen, it varies based on the ecology and populations, etc.

I’ve hunted south Texas places where things are much more like your experience, the deer don’t camp on the feeders. Stocking rates come into play here I think as well. We are way overstocked (approx 40-50 head) on the ranch at any one time. This will be our challenge going forward. My dad doesn’t want to shoot does, and I’m having a hard time keeping up with the numbers. Also, low fence conditions somewhat limit our ability to control numbers, i.e. we can shoot a bunch of does, but more from adjacent properties will come in to backfill, and since those deer haven’t been on a higher nutritional plane, I’d kinda be starting over trying to get to genetic potential. Hard to know what to do, and the land isn’t showing signs of over grazing yet; but at some point soon we’re going to have to work more on the doe population.

[deadshank 24653]

1 minute ago, 686 said:

From what I’ve seen, it varies based on the ecology and populations, etc.

I’ve hunted south Texas places where things are much more like your experience, the deer don’t camp on the feeders. Stocking rates come into play here I think as well. We are way overstocked (approx 40-50 head) on the ranch at any one time. This will be our challenge going forward. My dad doesn’t want to shoot does, and I’m having a hard time keeping up with the numbers. Also, low fence conditions somewhat limit our ability to control numbers, i.e. we can shoot a bunch of does, but more from adjacent properties will come in to backfill, and since those deer haven’t been on a higher nutritional plane, I’d kinda be starting over trying to get to genetic potential. Hard to know what to do, and the land isn’t showing signs of over grazing yet; but at some point soon we’re going to have to work more on the doe population.

The idea of not shooting does is very frustrating.   We have one guy on our place that believes taking does is an unforgivable sin.   We have slowly brow beat and convinced him into enlightened thinking.  

[Reagan1k 3024]

There's a lot that goes into the mindset of not shooting doe.  Much of it was machismo dating back decades, some of is geographic (guys from low deer density areas starting to hunt higher density counties, but a lot of it was financial.

A lot of you are too young (probably) to remember the old day hunt / doe permit days of the Hill Country, but that led to 90% of the problems Central Texas had with herds of small deer and only young bucks.  

From at least the 50's through the 70's and into the 80's, many ranchers in Central Texas ran day leases.  You paid $50-$100 a day to hunt and that gave you rights to shoot one "deer".  However, TPWD also had a "Doe Permit" program that they ran state wide and they only gave land owners a certain number of permits for doe harvest based on the county population surveys.  Some counties got X doe per 100 acres.  Others may get none.  

You couldn't shoot a doe unless you had both a doe tag, and a doe permit.......You had the tag, but the landowner controlled the doe permits.  I still remember them - White paper documents that had to be signed by the land owner and the hunter to accompany the deer.

So.....Landowners leasing to day hunters would lease for $50-$100 a day but if you shot a doe, you had to pay extra for the doe permit.  Bucks were wrapped into the daily fee, but not the doe.

Hunters, knowing they were only on the land a few days a year had the choice; Pay $50-$100 and shoot a buck of any size, or shoot a doe and pay maybe twice that.  With no stewardship incentive, the day lease hunters would shoot anything with bone poking through the skull rather than shoot a doe and have to pay extra.

Multiply that mindset times 50+ hunters a year per ranch and the fallout was inevitable.

This led to ranches that had incredibly high doe populations, no mature bucks, and massive stress on the land's carrying capacity.  Back then a 3 yr old 14" wide 8pt was cause for celebration, and most hunters shot a yearling buck or maybe a 1 yr old fork horn or 6pt.

When the doe permit program died and landowners were either pressured or incentivized by hunters to move toward season leases, the population had a chance to normalize.  It took decades to retrain older hunters or bring in newer hunters who exhibited patience and practiced good management.

You still have hunters who don't want to wait on a lease to develop a sustainable population of mature bucks. I guess they act this way for fear of being kicked off right when the mature bucks are of age, or just being short sighted and not understanding the potential of the land. 

However, Hill Country hunting is light years ahead of where it was 40+ years ago and everyone is better for it.  Horn hunters have a chance to harvest some true trophy bucks, and meat hunters have the opportunity to aid in the management of the population through required harvest numbers.

 

[HouTex 1867]

The idea of not shooting does is very frustrating.   We have one guy on our place that believes taking does is an unforgivable sin.   We have slowly brow beat and convinced him into enlightened thinking.  

Wow. Most hunters knew about the doe issue in the mid 70’s.

[DalTxHornFan 3101]

17 minutes ago, Reagan1k said:

There's a lot that goes into the mindset of not shooting doe. 

 

Good explanation.  We had an older landowner who didn't want us to shoot "the mama deer" because "you never know when the screw worms" will come back again!  Good times.

[Reagan1k 3024]

It’s often forgotten that whitetail were virtually wiped out during the time when many of our fathers and grandfathers were growing up.  It was rare for them to see any deer, so I get it.  Don’t shoot the breeding doe.

Those days have long since past, but the mentality can take a long time to adjust.  A lot of us do things and believe things simply because that’s what we were taught or experienced.

I don’t judge anyone’s stance because I don’t know from where it originates, but I will discuss and debate it based on current facts. 

[CHIEF 5088]

30 minutes ago, Reagan1k said:

It’s often forgotten that whitetail were virtually wiped out during the time when many of our fathers and grandfathers were growing up.  It was rare for them to see any deer, so I get it.  Don’t shoot the breeding doe.

Those days have long since past, but the mentality can take a long time to adjust.  A lot of us do things and believe things simply because that’s what we were taught or experienced.

I don’t judge anyone’s stance because I don’t know from where it originates, but I will discuss and debate it based on current facts. 

It was that way when I was growing up. I didn't shoot a doe until after I was married and my FIL needed does taken off his place. I have two uncles I have hunted with, and neither have ever shot does. Never saw my Dad shoot one either.

CHIEF

[Reagan1k 3024]

Here’s some from our place throughout the last several years.  Down by Willow City Loop close to F’burg.  Low fence 

[Ten Bears 2481]

But they are so tasty.  I would rather eat a doe any day.

Screwworms decimated the WTD populations in the 50s.  Way more than over-hunting pressure but there was plenty of that too.

[686 3449]

Those are some fantastic bucks Reagan1k! especially for low fence Hill Country. I would have thought it was impossible 30 years ago. I really feel like we may be entering a new “good ole days” period for whitetails in Texas. Better hunter education, trail cameras, better range management, etc.

[DalTxHornFan 3101]

A great buck, that one.  Love that dropped tine!

[Spaulding Smails 1552]

Great thread.  Great insight.  And great pics of great bucks!  All of this is so encouraging for my place.  We purchased it three years ago.  250 acres in far western Kimble County.  Low fence.  It had been pretty heavily hunted without much though on conservation from the previous owner.  From a property management standpoint, we have not done a deer survey, but we did add two cisterns plumbed from the well.  We feed protein spring / summer along with alfalfa here and there in the summer.  This summer we added a turkey feeder.  We have whitetail, axis and turkey.  Hogs are sporadic.  

From a hunting standpoint, we saw a few smallish bucks in year 1.  And a decent amount of doe.  We harvested two whitetail that season.  My son shot a cull buck (4.5 year old 4-pt, his first buck) in year 1, and my BIL shot a doe.  Year 2, we started seeing better deer and more of them.  I shot a decent 30" axis buck that summer, and my wife shot a doe.  That was it.  This year, my BIL shot an axis doe, and I shot a doe.  We may take one more doe next weekend.  As a whole, the deer herd seems to be plentiful.  The last hunt we were on, we counted 22 whitetail and 7 axis.  Honestly, we probably need to shoot more doe.  We were seeing some much improved bucks before the season, and started to see some irregular points here and there which was fun.  Based on game cams and what we saw from the stand, I would guess that our buck to doe ratio was probably 30/70 this summer.  So, not ideal.  And, once the season started, we see probably 90% doe.  Which leads me to my question...

What's the thought on impact of adjacent properties for a smaller place like ours?  We have three neighbors total.  Mostly decent sized (600+ acre) ranches, with some hunting pressure from what we can see.  The smaller place (200 acres) next to us is pretty heavily hunted.  And the guy's a dick.  We've talked to him and the two other landowners sparingly.  One leases it to hunters, the other doesn't but said he and his family hunt quite a bit.  No conversations about conservation, but my guess is, based on the disappearance of bucks (both on cameras and from the stand), that they're probably shooting immature bucks without any regard for longterm herd improvement.  

Also, any idea what the target deer population per 100 acres is in that area?

Ultimately, we're seeing wildlife improvements, and I'm optimistic that we'll continue that trend in coming years.  I'm going to upgrade our protein feeder situation this spring.  We're early in the process.  And, we're going to talk to the neighbor this spring about potentially purchasing his property.  We bought the 250 acres from him, and he indicated when we bought that he'd be willing to sell.  That would mitigate some of the conservation issues if we can pull it off.

[deadshank 24653]

5 minutes ago, Spaulding Smails said:

Great thread.  Great insight.  And great pics of great bucks!  All of this is so encouraging for my place.  We purchased it three years ago.  250 acres in far western Kimble County.  Low fence.  It had been pretty heavily hunted without much though on conservation from the previous owner.  From a property management standpoint, we have not done a deer survey, but we did add two cisterns plumbed from the well.  We feed protein spring / summer along with alfalfa here and there in the summer.  This summer we added a turkey feeder.  We have whitetail, axis and turkey.  Hogs are sporadic.  

From a hunting standpoint, we saw a few smallish bucks in year 1.  And a decent amount of doe.  We harvested two whitetail that season.  My son shot a cull buck (4.5 year old 4-pt, his first buck) in year 1, and my BIL shot a doe.  Year 2, we started seeing better deer and more of them.  I shot a decent 30" axis buck that summer, and my wife shot a doe.  That was it.  This year, my BIL shot an axis doe, and I shot a doe.  We may take one more doe next weekend.  As a whole, the deer herd seems to be plentiful.  The last hunt we were on, we counted 22 whitetail and 7 axis.  Honestly, we probably need to shoot more doe.  We were seeing some much improved bucks before the season, and started to see some irregular points here and there which was fun.  Based on game cams and what we saw from the stand, I would guess that our buck to doe ratio was probably 30/70 this summer.  So, not ideal.  And, once the season started, we see probably 90% doe.  Which leads me to my question...

What's the thought on impact of adjacent properties for a smaller place like ours?  We have three neighbors total.  Mostly decent sized (600+ acre) ranches, with some hunting pressure from what we can see.  The smaller place (200 acres) next to us is pretty heavily hunted.  And the guy's a dick.  We've talked to him and the two other landowners sparingly.  One leases it to hunters, the other doesn't but said he and his family hunt quite a bit.  No conversations about conservation, but my guess is, based on the disappearance of bucks (both on cameras and from the stand), that they're probably shooting immature bucks without any regard for longterm herd improvement.  

Also, any idea what the target deer population per 100 acres is in that area?

Ultimately, we're seeing wildlife improvements, and I'm optimistic that we'll continue that trend in coming years.  I'm going to upgrade our protein feeder situation this spring.  We're early in the process.  And, we're going to talk to the neighbor this spring about potentially purchasing his property.  We bought the 250 acres from him, and he indicated when we bought that he'd be willing to sell.  That would mitigate some of the conservation issues if we can pull it off.

You’re in a difficult position.  Working small places surrounded by other small places and neighbors that don’t care about management will always be a problem.   It’s hard enough with big places and neighbors that aren’t mature hunters.  
 

Keep doing what you can and try your best to convey the message to your neighbors.  
 

Scorched earth policy is to high fence the border you share with the 200 acre meatheads.  

[fattyflattie 4639]

Damn @Reagan1k those are some great deer.  Better than what we’ve been seeing for last several years on our place. 

[Spaulding Smails 1552]

2 hours ago, deadshank said:

You’re in a difficult position.  Working small places surrounded by other small places and neighbors that don’t care about management will always be a problem.   It’s hard enough with big places and neighbors that aren’t mature hunters.  
 

Keep doing what you can and try your best to convey the message to your neighbors.  
 

Scorched earth policy is to high fence the border you share with the 200 acre meatheads.  

Yep.  And I agree with everything you said.  The silver lining is that we've already seen at least some improvement.  And, if we can snag the 200 acres, then we eliminate some of that pressure and insulate ourselves even more.  Just takes time and money, I suppose!

[Reagan1k 3024]

I don’t have any experience in small tracts @Spaulding Smails but I have seen some that I thought were managed well.

They focus on making their property a sanctuary for game and allow the surrounding owners to experience then consequences of their decisions not to manage.

Depending on the geographic layout, either make your perimeter a sanctuary and feed/hunt the interior, or vice versa and make the center a sanctuary and hunt the perimeter.

Get creative with your feeding and time it both daily and seasonally to bring deer into or keep them on the property to feeder and then lay up.

You won’t be able to control movement during the rut, but the rest of the year you can impact movement and bedding if you are creative.

It won’t be perfect but it can result in a few deer making it to maturity, and then you may be able to use that as proof to change attitudes around you.

Really you’re playing the long game with them.... both the neighbors and the wildlife.